Will a rotary telephone function on a cable line?

Scenario :
I've connected a 1950's rotary telephone to my Cablecom router, via
the RJ11 line input. The telephone is connected to the RJ11 jack with
the Cablecom RJ11->TT splitter which essentially presents two wires
that map directly to the (only) two wires from the phone (red/black).

- On dialing the line, the telephone rings. On picking up the handset
the ringing stops on the physical telephone, but continues on the
calling phone. Oddly the earpiece, once lifted, of the physical phone
sounds the ringing, just like I hear from the calling phone. That will
continue until the line rings out to Cablecom voicemail.
- On dialing from the telephone : There is no dial tone. Dialing a
number will produce a clear beep after each dial rotation, but does
not result in any phone being called.


Any advice appreciated..

"My FileStore"  wrote in message 
news:0d22c223-f609-4dc9-8bf9-ffadeadee78d@m38g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> Will a rotary telephone function on a cable line?
>
> Scenario :
> I've connected a 1950's rotary telephone to my Cablecom router, via
> the RJ11 line input. The telephone is connected to the RJ11 jack with
> the Cablecom RJ11->TT splitter which essentially presents two wires
> that map directly to the (only) two wires from the phone (red/black).
>
> - On dialing the line, the telephone rings. On picking up the handset
> the ringing stops on the physical telephone, but continues on the
> calling phone. Oddly the earpiece, once lifted, of the physical phone
> sounds the ringing, just like I hear from the calling phone. That will
> continue until the line rings out to Cablecom voicemail.
> - On dialing from the telephone : There is no dial tone. Dialing a
> number will produce a clear beep after each dial rotation, but does
> not result in any phone being called.
>
>
> Any advice appreciated..

I don't understand why you are connecting to the RJ11 socket of your 
router - does the phone work if it is plugged into the 'ordinary' telephone 
socket.  For what it's worth the interface specification for a POTS cable 
line is the same as BT's.

Peter

On 2 Nov, 14:20, My FileStore  wrote:
> Will a rotary telephone function on a cable line?
> I've connected a 1950's rotary telephone to my Cablecom router, via
> the RJ11 line input. The telephone is connected to the RJ11 jack with
> the Cablecom RJ11->TT splitter which essentially presents two wires
> that map directly to the (only) two wires from the phone (red/black).

The phone is wired incorrectly. If it's a BT 700 series phone follow
the instructions for "GPO Telephone  706, 710, 741 & 746" at
http://www.britishtelephones.com/pstconv1.htm#700

Alternatively wire as issued in Dgm. N846
http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repository/n_diagrams/0000/N846.pdf
and connect Tele terminals T8 and T18 to the line, depending on how
the RJ11 jack is wired, and through a microfilter if appropriate of
course.

Owain

On 2 Nov, 15:52, "Peter Andrews" 
wrote:
> "My FileStore"  wrote in message
>
> news:0d22c223-f609-4dc9-8bf9-ffadeadee78d@m38g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Will a rotary telephone function on a cable line?
>
> > Scenario :
> > I've connected a 1950's rotary telephone to my Cablecom router, via
> > the RJ11 line input. The telephone is connected to the RJ11 jack with
> > the Cablecom RJ11->TT splitter which essentially presents two wires
> > that map directly to the (only) two wires from the phone (red/black).
>
> > - On dialing the line, the telephone rings. On picking up the handset
> > the ringing stops on the physical telephone, but continues on the
> > calling phone. Oddly the earpiece, once lifted, of the physical phone
> > sounds the ringing, just like I hear from the calling phone. That will
> > continue until the line rings out to Cablecom voicemail.
> > - On dialing from the telephone : There is no dial tone. Dialing a
> > number will produce a clear beep after each dial rotation, but does
> > not result in any phone being called.
>
> > Any advice appreciated..
>
> I don't understand why you are connecting to the RJ11 socket of your
> router - does the phone work if it is plugged into the 'ordinary' telephone
> socket.  For what it's worth the interface specification for a POTS cable
> line is the same as BT's.
>
> Peter

Unfortunately there is no 'ordinary' socket in the flat. The only
phone line sockets are two RJ11 sockets in the router.

On 2 Nov, 16:13, Owain  wrote:
> On 2 Nov, 14:20, My FileStore  wrote:
>
> > Will arotarytelephone function on a cable line?
> > I've connected a 1950'srotarytelephone to myCablecomrouter, via
> > the RJ11 line input. The telephone is connected to the RJ11 jack with
> > theCablecomRJ11->TT splitter which essentially presents two wires
> > that map directly to the (only) two wires from the phone (red/black).
>
> The phone is wired incorrectly. If it's a BT 700 series phone follow
> the instructions for "GPO Telephone  706, 710, 741 & 746" athttp://www.britishtelephones.com/pstconv1.htm#700
>
> Alternatively wire as issued in Dgm. N846http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repository/n_diagrams/0000/N846.pdf
> and connect Tele terminals T8 and T18 to the line, depending on how
> the RJ11 jack is wired, and through a microfilter if appropriate of
> course.

It's a Siemens VEF, 1956. Pictures and wiring diagram here:
http://themoviequote.com/images/random/

On 2 Nov, 21:56, My FileStore wrote:
> It's a Siemens VEF, 1956. Pictures and wiring diagram here:
> http://themoviequote.com/images/random/

Well, that changes everything!

*If* the phone is correct and in good order according to the diagram
then the two connections are what looks like 'backwards-R'1 and
'backwards-R'2 ie the ones below I and II on the terminal block in the
phone. You should replace the link between 3 and the terminal to its
right (below IV) with a 3.3k or greater resistor.

The router's ring trip is not detecting the handset being lifted on an
incoming call. The earpeice still sounds the ringing because the
router is still sending ringing current to the phone, but lifting the
handset disconnects the bell.

The inability to dial out might be because the router is not supplying
a dialling tone, and it might not respond to pulse dialling at all. It
would be useful if you could confirm that the router does work okay
with a 700 series or equivalent pulse dial phone.

Other fault finding would be to check and clean the dial contacts

Owain

"My FileStore"  wrote in message 
news:a2720d8e-dc35-494b-b3f9-4e22b684703f@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
On 2 Nov, 16:13, Owain  wrote:
> On 2 Nov, 14:20, My FileStore wrote:
>
> > Will arotarytelephone function on a cable line?
> > I've connected a 1950'srotarytelephone to myCablecomrouter, via
> > the RJ11 line input. The telephone is connected to the RJ11 jack with
> > theCablecomRJ11->TT splitter which essentially presents two wires
> > that map directly to the (only) two wires from the phone (red/black).
>
> The phone is wired incorrectly. If it's a BT 700 series phone follow
> the instructions for "GPO Telephone 706, 710, 741 & 746" 
> athttp://www.britishtelephones.com/pstconv1.htm#700
>
> Alternatively wire as issued in Dgm. 
> N846http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repository/n_diagrams/0000/N846.pdf
> and connect Tele terminals T8 and T18 to the line, depending on how
> the RJ11 jack is wired, and through a microfilter if appropriate of
> course.

It's a Siemens VEF, 1956. Pictures and wiring diagram here:
http://themoviequote.com/images/random/

Thanks for the diagram.  My only experience, a very long time ago, is with 
GPO telephones.  However from the diagram I believe that:

a, The contacts DM are the handset plungers;

b, HH are part of the dial mechanism, HH1 stops you hearing dial pulses by 
short circuiting the receiver (T), HH2 closes when the dial is off normal, 
HH3 is closed when the dial is being rotated clockwise but is open when the 
dial is spinning back under its own spring allowing HH4 to pulse the number 
dialled.

c,  The microphone (M) is probably a carbon granule microphone, these often 
became 'noisy' when old and it may be that yours has become high resistance 
(note i) over the years.  This would account for you being unable to trip 
the ringing current when you lift the handset.  The current flow would be 
via the 129ohm (?) resistor and the microphone. The ringing you can hear 
after lifting the receiver is the ringing current passing through the 129ohm 
resistor, the receiver, 16ohm and 13ohm resistors and the 1uF capacitor. 
Drawing insufficient current to trip the ringing until VM kicks in.

d,  Be aware that continental telephones are often designed to a different 
transmission standard than that used in the UK (600ohm impedance) and that 
the make / break ratio of the dial may also be incorrect for the UK. (I 
don't think that you will have the problem that Swedish, IIRC, dial phones 
had when used in the UK as they pulsed 1 for digit 0 and 10 for digit 9!

note i - tapping on the microphone case may provide a temporary solution as 
this may break up the sticky granules.

I cannot see any obvious reason why it shouldn't work but that does assume 
that it's designed to work with about 50v dc.  Whether it's worth pursuing 
is for you to decide.

Peter

"My FileStore"  wrote in message news:a2720d8e-dc35-494b-b3f9-4e22b684703f@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
On 2 Nov, 16:13, Owain  wrote:
> On 2 Nov, 14:20, My FileStore wrote:
>
> > Will arotarytelephone function on a cable line?
> > I've connected a 1950'srotarytelephone to myCablecomrouter, via
> > the RJ11 line input. The telephone is connected to the RJ11 jack with
> > theCablecomRJ11->TT splitter which essentially presents two wires
> > that map directly to the (only) two wires from the phone (red/black).
>
> The phone is wired incorrectly. If it's a BT 700 series phone follow
> the instructions for "GPO Telephone 706, 710, 741 & 746" athttp://www.britishtelephones.com/pstconv1.htm#700
>
> Alternatively wire as issued in Dgm. N846http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repository/n_diagrams/0000/N846.pdf
> and connect Tele terminals T8 and T18 to the line, depending on how
> the RJ11 jack is wired, and through a microfilter if appropriate of
> course.

It's a Siemens VEF, 1956. Pictures and wiring diagram here:
http://themoviequote.com/images/random/

Interesting phone, I'm assuming the language is Russian.
Only 10 letters on the dial, seems to give an insight into the1950s
Soviet telephone system, I would like to know more.

I assume your router has a VoIP facility and you are using that.
If so it is very unlikley to respond to pulse dialling.

-- 
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

Peter Andrews  wrote:
> d,  Be aware that continental telephones are often designed to a different 
> transmission standard than that used in the UK (600ohm impedance) and that 
> the make / break ratio of the dial may also be incorrect for the UK. (I 
> don't think that you will have the problem that Swedish, IIRC, dial phones 
> had when used in the UK as they pulsed 1 for digit 0 and 10 for digit 9!

OTOH, VOIP ATAs can be more forgiving of this as they're designed to work
internationally with all sorts of standards.  You may have to configure it
differently and it's possible the options are only exposed in some versions
of the firmware (or the ISP has locked some of it down).

As someone else mentioned, pulse dialling might be a problem though.  And I
don't know if an ATA can handle the power draw from this sort of kit.

Theo

"Theo Markettos" <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message 
news:Kiv*AybVs@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
> Peter Andrews  wrote:
>> d,  Be aware that continental telephones are often designed to a 
>> different
>> transmission standard than that used in the UK (600ohm impedance) and 
>> that
>> the make / break ratio of the dial may also be incorrect for the UK. (I
>> don't think that you will have the problem that Swedish, IIRC, dial 
>> phones
>> had when used in the UK as they pulsed 1 for digit 0 and 10 for digit 9!
>
> OTOH, VOIP ATAs can be more forgiving of this as they're designed to work
> internationally with all sorts of standards.  You may have to configure it
> differently and it's possible the options are only exposed in some 
> versions
> of the firmware (or the ISP has locked some of it down).
>
> As someone else mentioned, pulse dialling might be a problem though.  And 
> I
> don't know if an ATA can handle the power draw from this sort of kit.
>
> Theo

I agree, I hadn't fully appreciated when responding that the OP is/was 
trying to use the phone for a VOIP connection - my gut feeling would be 
don't bother!  My ATA doesn't respond to pulse dialling.

That said it was fun resurrecting some knowledge from my days on 'subs apps' 
as an apprentice in the early sixties.

Peter

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 11:02:12 -0800 (PST), My FileStore
 wrote:

>On 2 Nov, 15:52, "Peter Andrews" 
>wrote:
>> "My FileStore"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:0d22c223-f609-4dc9-8bf9-ffadeadee78d@m38g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > Will a rotary telephone function on a cable line?
>>
>> > Scenario :
>> > I've connected a 1950's rotary telephone to my Cablecom router, via
>> > the RJ11 line input. The telephone is connected to the RJ11 jack with
>> > the Cablecom RJ11->TT splitter which essentially presents two wires
>> > that map directly to the (only) two wires from the phone (red/black).
>>
>> > - On dialing the line, the telephone rings. On picking up the handset
>> > the ringing stops on the physical telephone, but continues on the
>> > calling phone. Oddly the earpiece, once lifted, of the physical phone
>> > sounds the ringing, just like I hear from the calling phone. That will
>> > continue until the line rings out to Cablecom voicemail.
>> > - On dialing from the telephone : There is no dial tone. Dialing a
>> > number will produce a clear beep after each dial rotation, but does
>> > not result in any phone being called.
>>
>> > Any advice appreciated..
>>
>> I don't understand why you are connecting to the RJ11 socket of your
>> router - does the phone work if it is plugged into the 'ordinary' telephone
>> socket.  For what it's worth the interface specification for a POTS cable
>> line is the same as BT's.
>>
>> Peter
>
>Unfortunately there is no 'ordinary' socket in the flat. The only
>phone line sockets are two RJ11 sockets in the router.

But what is your router plugged into - presumably a telephone socket
of some sort?  Why don't you add a splitter there and connect your
telephone to the telephone socket in the traditional way?

"Scott"  wrote in message news:d561f5ltintgt0hc87hoi4tkrc81l56if2@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 11:02:12 -0800 (PST), My FileStore
>  wrote:
>
>>On 2 Nov, 15:52, "Peter Andrews" 
>>wrote:
>>> "My FileStore"  wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:0d22c223-f609-4dc9-8bf9-ffadeadee78d@m38g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Will a rotary telephone function on a cable line?
>>>
>>> > Scenario :
>>> > I've connected a 1950's rotary telephone to my Cablecom router, via
>>> > the RJ11 line input. The telephone is connected to the RJ11 jack with
>>> > the Cablecom RJ11->TT splitter which essentially presents two wires
>>> > that map directly to the (only) two wires from the phone (red/black).
>>>
>>> > - On dialing the line, the telephone rings. On picking up the handset
>>> > the ringing stops on the physical telephone, but continues on the
>>> > calling phone. Oddly the earpiece, once lifted, of the physical phone
>>> > sounds the ringing, just like I hear from the calling phone. That will
>>> > continue until the line rings out to Cablecom voicemail.
>>> > - On dialing from the telephone : There is no dial tone. Dialing a
>>> > number will produce a clear beep after each dial rotation, but does
>>> > not result in any phone being called.
>>>
>>> > Any advice appreciated..
>>>
>>> I don't understand why you are connecting to the RJ11 socket of your
>>> router - does the phone work if it is plugged into the 'ordinary' telephone
>>> socket. For what it's worth the interface specification for a POTS cable
>>> line is the same as BT's.
>>>
>>> Peter
>>
>>Unfortunately there is no 'ordinary' socket in the flat. The only
>>phone line sockets are two RJ11 sockets in the router.
>
> But what is your router plugged into - presumably a telephone socket
> of some sort?  Why don't you add a splitter there and connect your
> telephone to the telephone socket in the traditional way?

The OP appears to be in California and has a cable router with
one or more FSX ports.

-- 
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 22:13:48 -0000, "Graham."  wrote:

>
>
>"Scott"  wrote in message news:d561f5ltintgt0hc87hoi4tkrc81l56if2@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 11:02:12 -0800 (PST), My FileStore
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>On 2 Nov, 15:52, "Peter Andrews" 
>>>wrote:
>>>> "My FileStore"  wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> news:0d22c223-f609-4dc9-8bf9-ffadeadee78d@m38g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Will a rotary telephone function on a cable line?
>>>>
>>>> > Scenario :
>>>> > I've connected a 1950's rotary telephone to my Cablecom router, via
>>>> > the RJ11 line input. The telephone is connected to the RJ11 jack with
>>>> > the Cablecom RJ11->TT splitter which essentially presents two wires
>>>> > that map directly to the (only) two wires from the phone (red/black).
>>>>
>>>> > - On dialing the line, the telephone rings. On picking up the handset
>>>> > the ringing stops on the physical telephone, but continues on the
>>>> > calling phone. Oddly the earpiece, once lifted, of the physical phone
>>>> > sounds the ringing, just like I hear from the calling phone. That will
>>>> > continue until the line rings out to Cablecom voicemail.
>>>> > - On dialing from the telephone : There is no dial tone. Dialing a
>>>> > number will produce a clear beep after each dial rotation, but does
>>>> > not result in any phone being called.
>>>>
>>>> > Any advice appreciated..
>>>>
>>>> I don't understand why you are connecting to the RJ11 socket of your
>>>> router - does the phone work if it is plugged into the 'ordinary' telephone
>>>> socket. For what it's worth the interface specification for a POTS cable
>>>> line is the same as BT's.
>>>>
>>>> Peter
>>>
>>>Unfortunately there is no 'ordinary' socket in the flat. The only
>>>phone line sockets are two RJ11 sockets in the router.
>>
>> But what is your router plugged into - presumably a telephone socket
>> of some sort?  Why don't you add a splitter there and connect your
>> telephone to the telephone socket in the traditional way?
>
>The OP appears to be in California and has a cable router with
>one or more FSX ports.

Well spotted.

>>> of some sort?  Why don't you add a splitter there and connect your
>>> telephone to the telephone socket in the traditional way?
>>
>>The OP appears to be in California and has a cable router with
>>one or more FSX ports.
>
> Well spotted.

It appears that I have wasted my time :-(

Peter (this is UK telecom isn't it!)