On Nov 4, 9:15 am, Matthew Geier
 wrote:


>  Siemens has already built a batch of 'Avanto' 'tram-trains' that are
> equipped for 25kAC/750vDC operation and are even fitted with appropriate
> train protection equipment for the area they operate in.


I've already posted Avantos exist way back upthread.

It is about the 42nd time I've mentioned Avanto in various thread in
this forum over recent years, yet every new thread about tram/trains
trots out the same uninformed drivel about perceived 25 kV / 750 V
trams not exisitng, need to re-wire 25 kV to 750 V etc, when they do
exist and are well proven. There are even electro-diesel options
although not sure if any of those have actually been built yet.

--
Nick

December 12th, according to   the RMT. See
http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/4718713.East_Coast_Main_Line_to_be_renationalised_on_December_12/

"Rail unions claim East Coast Main Line to be renationalised on
December 12
8:56am Wednesday 4th November 2009

 Comments (0)   Have your say » 

By Mike Laycock » 


THE flagship East Coast Main Line will be renationalised on December 12
and will not return to the private sector until mid-2011, union leaders
have claimed.

The York-based publicly owned company will have a new name – East Coast
– and staff will have upgraded uniforms including new ties and scarves,
says the Rail, Maritime and Transport union.

At the same time, existing National Express East Coast logos at
stations and on trains will be removed or covered.

The union claims it has obtained an internal Government briefing giving
details of the handover from York-based NXEC, which is handing back the
franchise for the route from London to Scotland via York. Rolling stock
will be rebranded East Coast “as cost effectively and as soon as
practicable”, according to the document.

It said rail services would remain the same and the most noticeable
outward difference would be the change of name.

Profits would be returned to the public purse while the franchise was
run by the Government.

The expected date for the service to go back to the private sector,
mid-2011, is several months later than originally expected.

The union questioned why the new publicly owned company, which was
being created at massive cost to the taxpayer and with huge upheaval
for staff and passengers, was only seen as a short term measure, with
the Government planning a third “gamble” on privatisation in mid-2011,
despite the failures of National Express and the demise of its
predecessor, GNER.

The RMT also formally demanded that no member of staff transferring
from National Express to East Coast should suffer any detriment to
their current benefits or terms and conditions.

General Secretary Bob Crow said: “We want a clear recognition of the
hard work and dedication of staff who have kept the East Coast Main
Line running throughout the privatisation fiasco and an assurance that
there will be no attacks on their benefits or working conditions.”

A Goverment spokesman said a date had not yet been set for the transfer
to the publicly-owned company."

I wonder how long before Mr Crow attempts to provoke a strike?

Richard Hunt

On 4 Nov, 10:05, "Richard Hunt"  wrote:
> December 12th, according to   the RMT. Seehttp://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/4718713.East_Coast_Main_Line_to_be_re...

snippy

> The union questioned why the new publicly owned company, which was
> being created at massive cost to the taxpayer and with huge upheaval
> for staff and passengers, was only seen as a short term measure, with
> the Government planning a third “gamble” on privatisation in mid-2011> despite the failures of National Express and the demise of its
> predecessor, GNER.

I'm not sure what this "massive cost" or "huge upheaval" actually are.
A new uniform and a bit of vinyl, but they are going to be required
anyway, unless you have a standard "National Rail" identity (ukr
passim).

Andy

"Andy Elms"  wrote in message
news:a94ca713-50ec-403a-b81c-6a0b4e442239@37g2000yqm.googlegroups.com
> On 4 Nov, 10:05, "Richard Hunt"  wrote:
>> December 12th, according to the RMT.
>> Seehttp://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/4718713.East_Coast_Main_Line_to_be_re...
>
> snippy
>
>> The union questioned why the new publicly owned company, which was
>> being created at massive cost to the taxpayer and with huge upheaval
>> for staff and passengers, was only seen as a short term measure, with
>> the Government planning a third “gamble” on privatisation in
>> mid-2011,
>> despite the failures of National Express and the demise of its
>> predecessor, GNER.
>
> I'm not sure what this "massive cost" or "huge upheaval" actually are.
> A new uniform and a bit of vinyl, but they are going to be required
> anyway, unless you have a standard "National Rail" identity (ukr
> passim).

I think the massive cost is the loss to the government of the growing 
franchise premia that NX had signed up to. And the new franchise is 
likely to be based on a much smaller premium, starting later, than NX 
had agreed to. Passengers, OTOH, aren't likely to suffer any upheavel, 
and nor are most staff.

On 4 Nov, 10:47, Andy Elms  wrote:
> On 4 Nov, 10:05, "Richard Hunt"  wrote:
>
> > December 12th, according to   the RMT. Seehttp://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/4718713.East_Coast_Main_Line_to_be_re...
>
> snippy
>
> > The union questioned why the new publicly owned company, which was
> > being created at massive cost to the taxpayer and with huge upheaval
> > for staff and passengers, was only seen as a short term measure, with
> > the Government planning a third “gamble” on privatisation in mid-2011,
> > despite the failures of National Express and the demise of its
> > predecessor, GNER.
>
> I'm not sure what this "massive cost" or "huge upheaval" actually are.
> A new uniform and a bit of vinyl, but they are going to be required
> anyway, unless you have a standard "National Rail" identity (ukr
> passim).
>
> Andy

There are substantial costs involved in rebranding rolling stock. The
vinyls are not cheap and manpower is required to apply it. And then
there are the safety posters and cards throughout each train that need
to be rebranded, too. All the on train magazines carry the NXEC
branding, too, so they need to go.

You can do the train in the depot, of course. Indeed, you can do what
happened at the GNER/NXEC transfer and do some of the work in the
platforms at Kings Cross. At least the trains will come to you. But
there is a lot of branding on the stations, too, and not just on
signage. A lot of posters will need to be reprinted, too. And that
means a team travelling around with all the equipment needed to get
the necessary access to the places where branding has been applied.

And then there are the timetables and leaflets that are handed out.
The web site design.

While some uniforms will be worn out and will need replacing anyway,
there will be substantial numbers of uniforms that will have to be
"dumped". That said, the specific mention of ties and scarves suggests
that as much as possible of the existing uniforms will be retained;
perhaps it will only be the scarves and ties that will have to be
issued. It's what EMT did for the first few months when they took over
from MML on the London route.

New headed paper and other stationery (the list of stationery used by
a train company is pretty long, everything from car park tickets
through seat reseveration cards to payslips), new signs outside
offices and so on.

The costs are substantial.

Rob

"D1053"  wrote in message
news:795d0f9f-ebe1-4812-8920-116250091cc4@p35g2000yqh.googlegroups.com
> On 4 Nov, 10:47, Andy Elms  wrote:
>> On 4 Nov, 10:05, "Richard Hunt"  wrote:
>>
>>> December 12th, according to the RMT.
>>> Seehttp://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/4718713.East_Coast_Main_Line_to_be_re...
>>
>> snippy
>>
>>> The union questioned why the new publicly owned company, which was
>>> being created at massive cost to the taxpayer and with huge upheaval
>>> for staff and passengers, was only seen as a short term measure,
>>> with
>>> the Government planning a third “gamble” on privatisation in
>>> mid-2011,
>>> despite the failures of National Express and the demise of its
>>> predecessor, GNER.
>>
>> I'm not sure what this "massive cost" or "huge upheaval" actually
>> are. A new uniform and a bit of vinyl, but they are going to be
>> required anyway, unless you have a standard "National Rail" identity
>> (ukr passim).
>>
>> Andy
>
> There are substantial costs involved in rebranding rolling stock. The
> vinyls are not cheap and manpower is required to apply it. And then
> there are the safety posters and cards throughout each train that need
> to be rebranded, too. All the on train magazines carry the NXEC
> branding, too, so they need to go.
>
> You can do the train in the depot, of course. Indeed, you can do what
> happened at the GNER/NXEC transfer and do some of the work in the
> platforms at Kings Cross. At least the trains will come to you. But
> there is a lot of branding on the stations, too, and not just on
> signage. A lot of posters will need to be reprinted, too. And that
> means a team travelling around with all the equipment needed to get
> the necessary access to the places where branding has been applied.
>
> And then there are the timetables and leaflets that are handed out.
> The web site design.
>
> While some uniforms will be worn out and will need replacing anyway,
> there will be substantial numbers of uniforms that will have to be
> "dumped". That said, the specific mention of ties and scarves suggests
> that as much as possible of the existing uniforms will be retained;
> perhaps it will only be the scarves and ties that will have to be
> issued. It's what EMT did for the first few months when they took over
> from MML on the London route.
>
> New headed paper and other stationery (the list of stationery used by
> a train company is pretty long, everything from car park tickets
> through seat reseveration cards to payslips), new signs outside
> offices and so on.
>
> The costs are substantial.

Not compared to the loss of the NXEC premium, estimated at £380m before 
the franchise qualified for cap and collar revenue support in two years' 
time.  In any case, aren't a lot (or all) of these re-branding costs 
covered by the NX £32m performance bond?

On Nov 4, 11:05 am, D1053  wrote:
> There are substantial costs involved in rebranding rolling stock. The
> vinyls are not cheap and manpower is required to apply it. And then
> there are the safety posters and cards throughout each train that need
> to be rebranded, too. All the on train magazines carry the NXEC
> branding, too, so they need to go.
>
> You can do the train in the depot, of course. Indeed, you can do what
> happened at the GNER/NXEC transfer and do some of the work in the
> platforms at Kings Cross. At least the trains will come to you. But
> there is a lot of branding on the stations, too, and not just on
> signage. A lot of posters will need to be reprinted, too. And that
> means a team travelling around with all the equipment needed to get
> the necessary access to the places where branding has been applied.
>
> And then there are the timetables and leaflets that are handed out.
> The web site design.
>
> While some uniforms will be worn out and will need replacing anyway,
> there will be substantial numbers of uniforms that will have to be
> "dumped". That said, the specific mention of ties and scarves suggests
> that as much as possible of the existing uniforms will be retained;
> perhaps it will only be the scarves and ties that will have to be
> issued. It's what EMT did for the first few months when they took over
> from MML on the London route.
>
> New headed paper and other stationery (the list of stationery used by
> a train company is pretty long, everything from car park tickets
> through seat reseveration cards to payslips), new signs outside
> offices and so on.
>
> The costs are substantial.

One would assume not, as EC won't have the same commercial need to get
its name out there as a private sector TOC. So timetables, magazines,
posters, seat reservation cards, etc can be left until they need
replacing/updating or run out. And as you say, uniform will just
consist of scarves/ties.

And I'll happily take on the job of rebranding the website for gbp1000
[change the image content, search and replace the text, search and
replace the colours to the new scheme...]

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

In message 
          D1053  wrote:

> On 4 Nov, 10:47, Andy Elms  wrote:
> > On 4 Nov, 10:05, "Richard Hunt"  wrote:
> >
> > > December 12th, according to =A0 the RMT. Seehttp://www.yorkpress.co.uk/=
> news/4718713.East_Coast_Main_Line_to_be_re...
> >
> > snippy
> >
> > > The union questioned why the new publicly owned company, which was
> > > being created at massive cost to the taxpayer and with huge upheaval
> > > for staff and passengers, was only seen as a short term measure, with
> > > the Government planning a third gamble on privatisation in mid-2011,
> > > despite the failures of National Express and the demise of its
> > > predecessor, GNER.
> >
> > I'm not sure what this "massive cost" or "huge upheaval" actually are.
> > A new uniform and a bit of vinyl, but they are going to be required
> > anyway, unless you have a standard "National Rail" identity (ukr
> > passim).
> >
> > Andy
> 
> There are substantial costs involved in rebranding rolling stock. The
> vinyls are not cheap and manpower is required to apply it. 

In this case it is just debranding rather than rebranding.

> And then there are the safety posters and cards throughout each train that
> need to be rebranded, too. 

They have to be replaced on a fairly frequent basis anyway due to damage or
loss.

> All the on train magazines carry the NXEC
> branding, too, so they need to go.

Ephemeria that will be replaced anyway.

> 
> You can do the train in the depot, of course. Indeed, you can do what
> happened at the GNER/NXEC transfer and do some of the work in the
> platforms at Kings Cross. At least the trains will come to you. 

> But there is a lot of branding on the stations, too, and not just on
> signage. 

Is there actually a tearing need to do more than just paper over the NX bit
of the branding?

> A lot of posters will need to be reprinted, too. And that means a
> team travelling around with all the equipment needed to get the necessary
> access to the places where branding has been applied.

Again posters get replaced on a regular basis by the very nature of things.

> 
> And then there are the timetables and leaflets that are handed out.

As Above

> The web site design.

Search and replace nxec.jpg with ec.jpg

> 
> While some uniforms will be worn out and will need replacing anyway,
> there will be substantial numbers of uniforms that will have to be
> "dumped". That said, the specific mention of ties and scarves suggests
> that as much as possible of the existing uniforms will be retained;
> perhaps it will only be the scarves and ties that will have to be
> issued. It's what EMT did for the first few months when they took over
> from MML on the London route.
> 
> New headed paper and other stationery (the list of stationery used by
> a train company is pretty long, everything from car park tickets
> through seat reseveration cards to payslips), new signs outside
> offices and so on.

That is probably the most expensive part of the exercise, when TVS rebranded
it's image from Chocolate & Cream to White & Steel Blue the stationery
replacement costs were of the order of GBP 100k and that was a relatively
small company back in 1985.


-- 
Graeme Wall

This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at <www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>

On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 11:19:06 -0000, "Recliner"
 wrote:
>
>Not compared to the loss of the NXEC premium, estimated at £380m before 
>the franchise qualified for cap and collar revenue support in two years' 
>time. 


It's wrong to quote the whole amount.  It won't be as bad as that.  

The new "franchisee" will make profits, all of which will offset some
of that premium.  The difference might actually be quite small.

In message , at 10:05:35 on Wed, 4 Nov 
2009, Richard Hunt  quoted RMT as saying:

>Profits would be returned to the public purse while the franchise was
>run by the Government.

Given that NXEC are throwing in the towel because the [net, after 
premium] operation is making a loss, it seems a tad optimistic to expect 
a larger [net] return to the public purse after its re-nationalised.

Batten down the hatches for lots of FUD and spin regarding the 
arithmetic behind statements like this.
-- 
Roland Perry

"Bruce"  wrote in message
news:d6p2f5ti8k01pi1ak825hr4ap7d8etgrn4@4ax.com
> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 11:19:06 -0000, "Recliner"
>  wrote:
>>
>> Not compared to the loss of the NXEC premium, estimated at £380m
>> before the franchise qualified for cap and collar revenue support in
>> two years' time.
>
>
> It's wrong to quote the whole amount.  It won't be as bad as that.
>
> The new "franchisee" will make profits, all of which will offset some
> of that premium.  The difference might actually be quite small.

Yes, EC may make modest profits to offset some of the loss of premium. I 
wonder if they'll be published?