A Reading University lecturer has started a 10 Downing Street petition
to abolish First Class accommodation on commuter trains in London and
replace it with additional Standard Class seats.  See

http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/s/2057632_help_me_ban_first_class_rail

"We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Abolish first class
travel on commuter train services into and out of London."

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/scrapfirst-class/

Paul Harley

"Paul Harley"  wrote in message 
news:2q51f5l9cl2mq8bfnq9mhvmkuqmip1q0km@4ax.com...
>A Reading University lecturer has started a 10 Downing Street petition
> to abolish First Class accommodation on commuter trains in London and
> replace it with additional Standard Class seats.  See
>
> http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/s/2057632_help_me_ban_first_class_rail
>
> "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Abolish first class
> travel on commuter train services into and out of London."
>
> http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/scrapfirst-class/
>
> Paul Harley
>
Every ticket inspector will support that. What a thankless task checking 
Superior Class Travel, nailing passengers standing in first class corriders. 
I'll get my hat, coat and ticket nippers.

On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 20:52:44 +0000, Paul Harley
 wrote:

>http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/scrapfirst-class/

Mr Shooter going to sign, I wonder?

(Though DB, his new overlord, is well known for providing First Class
on practically *every* train, even including some S-Bahnen and single
car rural dogboxen.  Can you imagine First Class on the Metropolitan
Line or Merseyrail?)

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Neil Williams wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 20:52:44 +0000, Paul Harley
>  wrote:
> 
>> http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/scrapfirst-class/
> 
> Mr Shooter going to sign, I wonder?
> 
> (Though DB, his new overlord, is well known for providing First Class
> on practically *every* train, even including some S-Bahnen and single
> car rural dogboxen.  Can you imagine First Class on the Metropolitan
> Line or Merseyrail?)

Or even a Pullmann car?

-- 
Arthur Figgis               Surrey, UK

On Nov 3, 9:28 pm, wensleyd...@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil Williams)
wrote:

> (Though DB, his new overlord, is well known for providing First Class
> on practically *every* train, even including some S-Bahnen and single
> car rural dogboxen.

Only when in the service specification funded by whatever body does
the funding. Thats why some S-bahn do and some S-bahn don't.

We've been through this debate once quote recently.

--
Nick

On Nov 3, 8:52 pm, Paul Harley  wrote:
> A Reading University lecturer has started a 10 Downing Street petition
> to abolish First Class accommodation on commuter trains in London and
> replace it with additional Standard Class seats.  

On my line (Kings Cross - Cambridge) the FC is usually full in the
peaks and so abolishing it will simply lead to a loss in revenue,
followed by yet another fare increase...

The thing is, how do you define commuter trains? Is an NXEA service to
Norwich a commuter train? It certainly carries plently of commuters,
even though it's a former InterCity route. Or FGW services to beyond
Oxford using HSTs? Should they be declassified too? Or VWC services
calling at stations such as Rugby?

On 3 Nov, 21:56, The Gardener  wrote:
> On Nov 3, 8:52 pm, Paul Harley  wrote:
>
> > A Reading University lecturer has started a 10 Downing Street petition
> > to abolish First Class accommodation on commuter trains in London and
> > replace it with additional Standard Class seats.  
>
> On my line (Kings Cross - Cambridge) the FC is usually full in the
> peaks and so abolishing it will simply lead to a loss in revenue,
> followed by yet another fare increase...
>
> The thing is, how do you define commuter trains? Is an NXEA service to
> Norwich a commuter train? It certainly carries plently of commuters,
> even though it's a former InterCity route. Or FGW services to beyond
> Oxford using HSTs? Should they be declassified too? Or VWC services
> calling at stations such as Rugby?

Don't restrict it to commuter trains if that's difficult.  It should
be abolished everywhere.

It makes absolutely no sense to wring hands about lack of track
capacity when nearly half of every Pendolino is empty with people
standing in the other half.

Transport is a public service and the track should be used
efficiently, not to provide space for transporting empty carriages
that potentially allow operators to make money out of a few people.

But it shouldn't all be converted to standard seating.  Some of it
should provide space for bikes, luggage etc.

"Paul Harley" <pwharley@....mail.com> wrote:

>A Reading University lecturer has started a 10 Downing Street petition
> to abolish First Class accommodation on commuter trains in London and
> replace it with additional Standard Class seats.  See
>
> http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/s/2057632_help_me_ban_first_class_rail

"I don't agree with all this silly class business anyway."

Many people take a similar view, until either:

i) They can afford FC travel themselves, or even better
ii) Their employer starts paying for FC travel

whereupon class solidarity tends to wane. One left wing Labour MP used to 
travel Standard, as a matter of principle - I think it was either Tony Benn 
or Dennis Skinner. They were very much the exception, rather than the rule.

Chris

On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:06:54 -0800 (PST), MIG
 wrote:

>It makes absolutely no sense to wring hands about lack of track
>capacity when nearly half of every Pendolino is empty with people
>standing in the other half.

Cheaper off-peak flexible any-operator First Class tickets would, as
I've stated many times in here, resolve that problem.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

"Arthur Figgis" <afiggis@example.com.invalid> wrote in message 
news:B_2dnbovu_swPG3XnZ2dnUVZ8sli4p2d@brightview.co.uk...
> Neil Williams wrote:
>> On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 20:52:44 +0000, Paul Harley
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/scrapfirst-class/
>>
>> Mr Shooter going to sign, I wonder?
>>
>> (Though DB, his new overlord, is well known for providing First Class
>> on practically *every* train, even including some S-Bahnen and single
>> car rural dogboxen.  Can you imagine First Class on the Metropolitan
>> Line or Merseyrail?)
>
> Or even a Pullmann car?
>
Indeed. A first class Pullman car
http://www.ltmcollection.org/museum/object/object.html?_IXSR_=3s2GVTKi21N&_IXMAXHITS_=1&IXinv=1989/36&IXsummary=results/results&IXsearch=metropolitan 
railway&IXfilterresults=objects&_IXFIRST_=51
They had two though I can only find a picture of a model on the web.

Peter

"MIG"  wrote
>
>It makes absolutely no sense to wring hands about lack of track
>capacity when nearly half of every Pendolino is empty with people
>standing in the other half.

It may have changed a bit with the recession, but until a year ago the 0700 
Manchester to Euston was often pretty full in the front half, and fairly 
empty in the rear.

Peter

On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 22:14:30 -0000, "Chris Read"
 wrote:
>"Paul Harley" <pwharley@....mail.com> wrote:
>>A Reading University lecturer has started a 10 Downing Street petition
>> to abolish First Class accommodation on commuter trains in London and
>> replace it with additional Standard Class seats.  See
>>
>> http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/s/2057632_help_me_ban_first_class_rail
>
>"I don't agree with all this silly class business anyway."
>
>Many people take a similar view, until either:
>
>i) They can afford FC travel themselves, or even better
>ii) Their employer starts paying for FC travel
>
>whereupon class solidarity tends to wane. 


As a civil servant I used to travel a lot on business by rail for six
years in the 1990s - typically four to six journeys a month between
Brighton or Haywards Heath and Southampton, Swindon, Loughborough,
Nottingham, Liverpool, Lowestoft, Durham and Peterborough.  I was
entitled to First Class travel but used Standard for most of my rail
journeys.  I would always use First when travelling with colleagues,
though.

It wasn't a class thing, more a case of not wanting to spend
taxpayers' money on a more expensive ticket than I needed.  Most of my
journeys involved a leg to London for which I used my own Standard
season ticket, and I often used Saver tickets to cut costs still
further.

Of course the trains were far less crowded than they are today, so
getting a seat in Standard was never the issue that it often is now.

"Peter Masson"  wrote in message 
news:BKmdnefaadLjJW3XnZ2dnUVZ7oqdnZ2d@bt.com...
>
>
> "Arthur Figgis" <afiggis@example.com.invalid> wrote in message 
> news:B_2dnbovu_swPG3XnZ2dnUVZ8sli4p2d@brightview.co.uk...
>> Neil Williams wrote:
>>> On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 20:52:44 +0000, Paul Harley
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/scrapfirst-class/
>>>
>>> Mr Shooter going to sign, I wonder?
>>>
>>> (Though DB, his new overlord, is well known for providing First Class
>>> on practically *every* train, even including some S-Bahnen and single
>>> car rural dogboxen.  Can you imagine First Class on the Metropolitan
>>> Line or Merseyrail?)
>>
>> Or even a Pullmann car?
>>
> Indeed. A first class Pullman car
> http://www.ltmcollection.org/museum/object/object.html?_IXSR_=3s2GVTKi21N&_IXMAXHITS_=1&IXinv=1989/36&IXsummary=results/results&IXsearch=metropolitan 
> railway&IXfilterresults=objects&_IXFIRST_=51
> They had two though I can only find a picture of a model on the web.
>
Unfortunately that didn't wrap. Try this, and click on the first 'Train 
model'
http://www.ltmcollection.org/museum/results/results.html?_IXSR_=iMjgLBtHs7n&IXsearch=metropolitan%20railway&IXfilterresults=objects&_IXFIRST_=41&IXpage=3

Peter

On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 21:28:35 GMT, wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil
Williams) wrote:
>On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 20:52:44 +0000, Paul Harley
> wrote:
>
>>http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/scrapfirst-class/
>
>Mr Shooter going to sign, I wonder?
>
>(Though DB, his new overlord, is well known for providing First Class
>on practically *every* train, even including some S-Bahnen and single
>car rural dogboxen.  Can you imagine First Class on the Metropolitan
>Line or Merseyrail?)


The Metropolitan Railway had First Class coaches plus two Pullman cars
with catering facilities.  I don't know when they were withdrawn.

The Class 503 EMUs operated through the Mersey Railway tunnel had
First Class until they were declassified in the mid-1970s.   Before
your time, perhaps, young man, but not before mine,  :-(

The Gardener wrote:

> The thing is, how do you define commuter trains? Is an NXEA service to
> Norwich a commuter train? It certainly carries plently of commuters,
> even though it's a former InterCity route. Or FGW services to beyond
> Oxford using HSTs? Should they be declassified too? Or VWC services
> calling at stations such as Rugby?

I think some of the most resented cases come when first class compartments 
appear on service routes that are normally standard throughout. A lot of 
London suburban & nearby town commuter lines have been like that for decades 
but every so often you either get a non-standard piece of stock showing up 
with a chunk of capacity unavailable to many commuters (especially because 
nobody buys tickets for what they can't get).

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

> I think some of the most resented cases come when first class compartments 
> appear on service routes that are normally standard throughout.

No reason to resent that. Take advantage of it. If the service/route is
"standard class only", then that's what the seats are, even if there are
signs on the train proclaiming them as "First Class". 
-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9683804.html
(153 370 and 150 249 at Whitland, 1 Jul 1999)

Chris Tolley wrote:

>> I think some of the most resented cases come when first class 
>> compartments
>> appear on service routes that are normally standard throughout.

> No reason to resent that. Take advantage of it. If the service/route is
> "standard class only", then that's what the seats are, even if there are
> signs on the train proclaiming them as "First Class".

Well personally I try to travel off peak when I can, as my schedule is 
flexible and the peak hour service is one of the worst scrums imaginable. 
But as other posters have said, the distinction is poorly known, even by 
ticket inspectors, and certainly not advertised.

A more interesting one is when some of the commuter belt town peak services 
have stops in the suburbs that are otherwise generally only served by 
all-standard stock. Or even one one TOC roams onto another's territory, 
bringing first class with it but not any decent information at stations 
where the regular TOC ca't be arsed to provide any information about the 
competition.

In message 
          "Chris Read"  wrote:

> 
> "Paul Harley" <pwharley@....mail.com> wrote:
> 
> >A Reading University lecturer has started a 10 Downing Street petition
> > to abolish First Class accommodation on commuter trains in London and
> > replace it with additional Standard Class seats.  See
> >
> > http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/s/2057632_help_me_ban_first_class_rail
> 
> "I don't agree with all this silly class business anyway."
> 
> Many people take a similar view, until either:
> 
> i) They can afford FC travel themselves, or even better
> ii) Their employer starts paying for FC travel
> 
> whereupon class solidarity tends to wane. One left wing Labour MP used to 
> travel Standard, as a matter of principle - I think it was either Tony Benn
> or Dennis Skinner. 

The latter, who made something of a fetish of it.  You'd have to look long
and hard to discover whether Viscount Stansgate had any principles.

-- 
Graeme Wall

This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at <www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>

Graeme wrote:

> You'd have to look long and hard to discover whether Viscount
> Stansgate had any principles.

You are Allan Tracy AICMFP.
-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9632773.html
(20 141 at Nuneaton, 13 Jun 1985)

In message <1c55rtk7ckcrm$.9c984zvowbgi$.dlg@40tude.net>
          Chris  Tolley <cj.tolley@bogus.co.uk (ukonline really)> wrote:

> Graeme wrote:
> 
> > You'd have to look long and hard to discover whether Viscount
> > Stansgate had any principles.
> 
> You are Allan Tracy AICMFP.

No just too many encounters with said gentleman.

-- 
Graeme Wall

This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at <www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>

"Bruce"  wrote
>
> The Metropolitan Railway had First Class coaches plus two Pullman cars
> with catering facilities.  I don't know when they were withdrawn.
>
> The Class 503 EMUs operated through the Mersey Railway tunnel had
> First Class until they were declassified in the mid-1970s.   Before
> your time, perhaps, young man, but not before mine,  :-(
>
The Metropolitan Pullmans were withdrawn in 1939.  It was also early in WW2 
that first class was withdrawn from trains running wholely within the London 
Passenger Transport Board area (rather wider than the later Greater London 
area - think of the area served by London Transport Country buses.

John Betjeman wrote of the time when he travelled first class on the London 
& Blackwall railway (now DLR). 'I remember the delightful old-fashioned 
rolling stock. The seats were cushions of black leather with buttons, and 
the carriage door had so rarely been opened that the compartment smelt and 
felt like the interior of a family brougham left forgotten in the stables.'

Peter

A not insignificant proportion of first class commuters are rail
employees with benefits from grade entitling them to f.c. travel.

I *assume* this quantity is diminishing as the numbers with legacy
travel benefits lessens as older staff retire or move on and newer
staff do not get such nicities. These quantities are significant - one
of the drivers behind for example the traditional allocation of Euston
line  321s   had more f.c. seating than GE line 321s did because there
were more MSx grade staff with htis privelege commuting off southern
end of WCML into the black tower than off other lines.   I've seen
general  arguments suggesting that f.c. accomodation more than pays
for the lower density layout it usually occupies, but that falls flat
when those seats are handed out free or 75% off .

Back to the main argument, I'd like too see f.c. removed from 319s and
377/5s and never put into NGEMUs. I have no time for the whinging
Brighton line lot - if they want f.c. then go by SN.. We don't have
the space north of the Thames for this, we need that space for us
proles.

--
Nick

On 4 Nov, 07:25, Chris  Tolley <cj.tol...@bogus.co.uk (ukonline really)
> wrote:
> Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
> > I think some of the most resented cases come when first class compartments
> > appear on service routes that are normally standard throughout.
>
> No reason to resent that. Take advantage of it. If the service/route is
> "standard class only", then that's what the seats are, even if there are
> signs on the train proclaiming them as "First Class".

Yep, Many is the time I've enjoyed a first class seat from Parkway to
Lawrence Hill, when my train home produces an ex SWT 158.

AE

On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 08:39:16 -0000, "Peter Masson"
 wrote:
>"Bruce"  wrote
>> The Metropolitan Railway had First Class coaches plus two Pullman cars
>> with catering facilities.  I don't know when they were withdrawn.
>>
>> The Class 503 EMUs operated through the Mersey Railway tunnel had
>> First Class until they were declassified in the mid-1970s.   Before
>> your time, perhaps, young man, but not before mine,  :-(
>>
>The Metropolitan Pullmans were withdrawn in 1939.  It was also early in WW2 
>that first class was withdrawn from trains running wholely within the London 
>Passenger Transport Board area (rather wider than the later Greater London 
>area - think of the area served by London Transport Country buses.

Thanks Peter.

>John Betjeman wrote of the time when he travelled first class on the London 
>& Blackwall railway (now DLR). 'I remember the delightful old-fashioned 
>rolling stock. The seats were cushions of black leather with buttons, and 
>the carriage door had so rarely been opened that the compartment smelt and 
>felt like the interior of a family brougham left forgotten in the stables.'

The L&BR Wikipedia entry is fascinating, especially the description of
operations:

Cable haulage

As originally built the line was 3½ miles long, with double track.
These were bi-directional and were operated independently of each
other. Indeed, on the opening of the line only one track was complete
and the other was not brought into use until one month later. Each
track was provided with a double length of hemp rope: as an engine was
winding in from one end an equivalent length of rope was being paid
out at the other. Fourteen miles of rope (with metal swivels inserted
at intervals to resist entanglements) were therefore required in all.
On journeys from the terminus cars were despatched in two groups: the
first group of four cars for the three most distant stations (the
terminus stations, as the most important, received two cars per trip)
and the second group destined for the three nearest. Each rearmost car
was released (“slipped”) as the convoy passed through its destination
station. When the extension to Fenchurch Street was brought into use
the pair of cars for that station was slipped from the rope at
Minories as before, but the brakes were not applied. If all went well,
momentum carried them up the slight slope to the new platforms.
“Slipping” and “pinning” (attaching) was controlled from whichever end
of a car was leading, using a lever mounted on an open platform at
each end.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_and_Blackwall_Railway

> > No reason to resent that. Take advantage of it. If the service/route is
> > "standard class only", then that's what the seats are, even if there are
> > signs on the train proclaiming them as "First Class".

I thought there was a bif debate on this in uk.railways a fair while
back because someone posted that this ''loop hole'' had been closed
amongst changes made during the drift towards fragmentisation a.k.s.
privatiasation and it now rests on the type of accomodation no longer
on what the service is advertised as ? Perhaps I'm confusing this with
something else.

--
Nick

On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 00:50:15 -0800 (PST), D7666 
wrote:
>Back to the main argument, I'd like too see f.c. removed from 319s and
>377/5s and never put into NGEMUs. I have no time for the whinging
>Brighton line lot - if they want f.c. then go by SN.. We don't have
>the space north of the Thames for this, we need that space for us
>proles.


Ouch!  ;-)

On Nov 4, 9:29 am, Bruce  wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 00:50:15 -0800 (PST), D7666 
> wrote:
>
> >Back to the main argument, I'd like too see f.c. removed from 319s and
> >377/5s and never put into NGEMUs. I have no time for the whinging
> >Brighton line lot - if they want f.c. then go by SN.. We don't have
> >the space north of the Thames for this, we need that space for us
> >proles.
>
> Ouch!  ;-)

:o)

A commuting prole.

--
Nick

On Nov 3, 10:06 pm, MIG  wrote:
> On 3 Nov, 21:56, The Gardener  wrote:
>
> > On Nov 3, 8:52 pm, Paul Harley  wrote:
>
> > > A Reading University lecturer has started a 10 Downing Street petition
> > > to abolish First Class accommodation on commuter trains in London and
> > > replace it with additional Standard Class seats.  
>
> > On my line (Kings Cross - Cambridge) the FC is usually full in the
> > peaks and so abolishing it will simply lead to a loss in revenue,
> > followed by yet another fare increase...
>
> > The thing is, how do you define commuter trains? Is an NXEA service to
> > Norwich a commuter train? It certainly carries plently of commuters,
> > even though it's a former InterCity route. Or FGW services to beyond
> > Oxford using HSTs? Should they be declassified too? Or VWC services
> > calling at stations such as Rugby?
>
> Don't restrict it to commuter trains if that's difficult.  It should
> be abolished everywhere.
>
> It makes absolutely no sense to wring hands about lack of track
> capacity when nearly half of every Pendolino is empty with people
> standing in the other half.
>
> Transport is a public service and the track should be used
> efficiently, not to provide space for transporting empty carriages
> that potentially allow operators to make money out of a few people.

The point is, if one bloated plutocrat is paying 5x the fare of the
proles in the back, this keeps fares for the proles *lower*. The
provision of first class vehicles *makes money for the railway*,
allowing the DfT and train operators between them to provide more room
for everyone else.

Clearly, if first class on a particular service isn't performing this
role, it should be abolished.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Nov 4, 6:15 am, "Tim Roll-Pickering" <T.C.Roll-
Picker...@qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
> The Gardener wrote:
> > The thing is, how do you define commuter trains? Is an NXEA service to
> > Norwich a commuter train? It certainly carries plently of commuters,
> > even though it's a former InterCity route. Or FGW services to beyond
> > Oxford using HSTs? Should they be declassified too? Or VWC services
> > calling at stations such as Rugby?
>
> I think some of the most resented cases come when first class compartments
> appear on service routes that are normally standard throughout. A lot of
> London suburban & nearby town commuter lines have been like that for decades
> but every so often you either get a non-standard piece of stock showing up
> with a chunk of capacity unavailable to many commuters (especially because
> nobody buys tickets for what they can't get).

Eh? If a service is scheduled as standard only but is running with
unusual rolling stock, the fact that there's a yellow stripe on the
roof is irrelevant - you can sit where you like on a standard ticket,
unless the guard's locked it OOU.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Nov 4, 9:40 am, John B  wrote:

> The point is, if one bloated plutocrat is paying 5x the fare of the
> proles in the back, this keeps fares for the proles *lower*. The
> provision of first class vehicles *makes money for the railway*,
> allowing the DfT and train operators between them to provide more room
> for everyone else.
>
> Clearly, if first class on a particular service isn't performing this
> role, it should be abolished.


Well it ain't 5x.

Just running Luton to SPI through the FCC web site is £5184 1st and
£3240 2nd. Thats 1.6 times.

In the space in a 319/2 where you have 18/36 1st/2nd and 78 in a 319/3
car of the same type the sums have to mean those 18 f.c. bring in the
same revenue as 42 standard passengers. I'm not aware f.c. season
tickets are 2.333

If you 2nd class accomoation is 2 and your f.c. is 1, that ratio
is 1.667 - thus f.c. does not cover the space ... don't forget FCC
peaks 319s are full and standing thus the extra 2ns seats would be
filled.

So here is an example where the fare ratio is 1.6, the general density
is 1.667, and one type of unit is 2.333. The case fails.

--
Nick

On Nov 4, 9:52 am, D7666  wrote:

> same revenue as 42 standard passengers. I'm not aware f.c. season
> tickets are 2.333

Sorry bad editing, that should just say 2.333, I was writing it in a
different way then changed my mind.

--
Nick

D7666 wrote:

>>> No reason to resent that. Take advantage of it. If the service/route is
>>> "standard class only", then that's what the seats are, even if there are
>>> signs on the train proclaiming them as "First Class".
> 
> I thought there was a bif debate on this in uk.railways a fair while
> back because someone posted that this ''loop hole'' had been closed
> amongst changes made during the drift towards fragmentisation a.k.s.
> privatiasation and it now rests on the type of accomodation no longer
> on what the service is advertised as ? Perhaps I'm confusing this with
> something else.

I don't remember such a discussion, but should I ever find myself
challenged for occupying a "first class" seat on a service that is
advertised as "standard class only", I'd happily and confidently argue
it all the way to court if necessary.

-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9632835.html
(33 017 at Portsmouth Harbour, May 1985)

On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 01:38:16 -0800 (PST), D7666 
wrote:

>On Nov 4, 9:29 am, Bruce  wrote:
>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 00:50:15 -0800 (PST), D7666 
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Back to the main argument, I'd like too see f.c. removed from 319s and
>> >377/5s and never put into NGEMUs. I have no time for the whinging
>> >Brighton line lot - if they want f.c. then go by SN.. We don't have
>> >the space north of the Thames for this, we need that space for us
>> >proles.
>>
>> Ouch!  ;-)
>
>:o)
>
>A commuting prole.


I suppose there wouldn't be much of a market north of London for a
modern day "5-BEL" with kippers on the breakfast menu.  ;-)

One of the old ones might re-appear on the Brighton line one day:
http://www.brightonbelle.com/

On Nov 4, 9:52 am, D7666  wrote:
> > The point is, if one bloated plutocrat is paying 5x the fare of the
> > proles in the back, this keeps fares for the proles *lower*. The
> > provision of first class vehicles *makes money for the railway*,
> > allowing the DfT and train operators between them to provide more room
> > for everyone else.
>
> Well it ain't 5x.
>
> Just running Luton to SPI through the FCC web site is £5184 1st and
> £3240 2nd. Thats 1.6 times.
>
> In the space in a 319/2 where you have 18/36 1st/2nd and 78 in a 319/3
> car of the same type the sums have to mean those 18 f.c. bring in the
> same revenue as 42 standard passengers. I'm not aware f.c. season
> tickets are 2.333
>
> If you 2nd class accomoation is 2 and your f.c. is 1, that ratio
> is 1.667 - thus f.c. does not cover the space ... don't forget FCC
> peaks 319s are full and standing thus the extra 2ns seats would be
> filled.
>
> So here is an example where the fare ratio is 1.6, the general density
> is 1.667, and one type of unit is 2.333. The case fails.

The case for first-class season tickets on FCC-north-of-river with
current rolling stock sold at current rates fails. I don't think you
can generalise that.

For a start, 319/2s have the unique (?) config of 3 in Standard and
2 in FC, making the space difference significantly greater than in
any other kind of stock. I'd agree that the FC in 319/2s is a bit daft
- using standard mk3 seats in the style of the 317s would've been far
better.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Nov 4, 10:00 am, Chris  Tolley <cj.tol...@bogus.co.uk (ukonline
really)> wrote:

> challenged for occupying a "first class" seat on a service that is
> advertised as "standard class only", I'd happily and confidently argue
> it all the way to court if necessary.


Indeed, I think I'd take the same stance if this ever arose.


--
Nick

On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 01:52:53 -0800 (PST), D7666 
wrote:
>
>Well it ain't 5x.
>
>Just running Luton to SPI through the FCC web site is £5184 1st and
>£3240 2nd. Thats 1.6 times.
>
>In the space in a 319/2 where you have 18/36 1st/2nd and 78 in a 319/3
>car of the same type the sums have to mean those 18 f.c. bring in the
>same revenue as 42 standard passengers. I'm not aware f.c. season
>tickets are 2.333
>
>If you 2nd class accomoation is 2+3 and your f.c. is 1+2, that ratio
>is 1.667 - thus f.c. does not cover the space ... don't forget FCC
>peaks 319s are full and standing thus the extra 2ns seats would be
>filled.
>
>So here is an example where the fare ratio is 1.6, the general density
>is 1.667, and one type of unit is 2.333. The case fails.


Well said, Nick.

There's another factor, in that First Class rarely if ever approaches
the levels of overcrowding in Standard.  So in the peaks, Standard
carries proportionately rather more passengers than the First/Standard
seating ratio would suggest.  This provides further emphasis to your
point.

If the Chiltern lines, which serve some of the most prosperous parts
of the country outside London, can manage without First Class, I have
no doubt that other routes can too.

On Nov 4, 10:04 am, John B  wrote:


> - using standard mk3 seats in the style of the 317s would've been far
> better.

Those 317 cars are 22/46; the equivalent 2 all standard are 78.
Thus 22 f.c. occupy 32 standards which is ratio 1.45. *However* on a
peak train one has to count this floor space for standees, or rather
denial of it, if one follow the rules fully. That is 1/3 of a car
denied to standing 2nds, crushed further into the rest of the car,
while the f.c. is almost certainly not every seat taken by a legit
f.c. fare.

Case fails.

--
Nick

On Nov 4, 10:14 am, D7666  wrote:
> On Nov 4, 10:04 am, John B  wrote:
>
> > - using standard mk3 seats in the style of the 317s would've been far
> > better.
>
> Those 317 cars are 22/46; the equivalent 2 all standard are 78.
> Thus 22 f.c. occupy 32 standards which is ratio 1.45. *However* on a
> peak train one has to count this floor space for standees, or rather
> denial of it, if one follow the rules fully. That is 1/3 of a car
> denied to standing 2nds, crushed further into the rest of the car,
> while the f.c. is almost certainly not every seat taken by a legit
> f.c. fare.
>
> Case fails.

IMX of travelling to Cambridge in the peak, every FC seat is occupied,
there are (suited & booted) standees in FC, and on the couple of
occasions when there's been a grip nobody has been thrown out.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org