I've just bought two of these from windtrap.co.uk - see
<http://windtrap.co.uk/Energy-Saving-Products/Motion-Sensor-Light-Switch.htm>

I fitted these (replacing the manual switches) in my kitchen and hallway,
both of which are lit by compact fluorescent lamps.   The blurb on the
website clearly says that the switch can be used with "all light bulbs,
including energy saving ones".

However, I found that even with the lux adjuster set to minimum, the lamps
flickered very faintly, showing that the switch is always allowing some
current through.  Strange, I thought the switch was supposed to be on or off? 
That's no good to me, thought I, so off came the switches again.

Before I return them for refund, does anyone else here have this experience
with these switches, and did you find a solution?

-- 
                                 Andy Clews
                            University of Sussex
                 *** Remove DENTURES if replying by email ***

In article <fomckj$etu$1@south.jnrs.ja.net>,
	A.Clews@DENTURESsussex.ac.uk writes:
> I've just bought two of these from windtrap.co.uk - see
> <http://windtrap.co.uk/Energy-Saving-Products/Motion-Sensor-Light-Switch.htm>
> 
> I fitted these (replacing the manual switches) in my kitchen and hallway,
> both of which are lit by compact fluorescent lamps.   The blurb on the
> website clearly says that the switch can be used with "all light bulbs,
> including energy saving ones".
> 
> However, I found that even with the lux adjuster set to minimum, the lamps
> flickered very faintly, showing that the switch is always allowing some
> current through.  Strange, I thought the switch was supposed to be on or off? 
> That's no good to me, thought I, so off came the switches again.
> 
> Before I return them for refund, does anyone else here have this experience
> with these switches, and did you find a solution?

I don't see how this could work with energy saving lamps.
You would need one with a neutral connection so it doesn't
power itself through the lamp. That would make it difficult
to fit as a direct swap for most light switches, where there
is no neutral available.

-- 
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Feb 10, 10:01 am, and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel)
wrote:
> In article <fomckj$et...@south.jnrs.ja.net>,
>         A.Cl...@DENTURESsussex.ac.uk writes:
>
> > I've just bought two of these from windtrap.co.uk - see
> > <http://windtrap.co.uk/Energy-Saving-Products/Motion-Sensor-Light-Swit...>
>
> > I fitted these (replacing the manual switches) in my kitchen and hallway,
> > both of which are lit by compact fluorescent lamps.   The blurb on the
> > website clearly says that the switch can be used with "all light bulbs,
> > including energy saving ones".
>
> > However, I found that even with the lux adjuster set to minimum, the lamps
> > flickered very faintly, showing that the switch is always allowing some
> > current through.  Strange, I thought the switch was supposed to be on or off?
> > That's no good to me, thought I, so off came the switches again.
>
> > Before I return them for refund, does anyone else here have this experience
> > with these switches, and did you find a solution?
>
> I don't see how this could work with energy saving lamps.
> You would need one with a neutral connection so it doesn't
> power itself through the lamp. That would make it difficult
> to fit as a direct swap for most light switches, where there
> is no neutral available.
>
> --
> Andrew Gabriel
> [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

I agree with Andrew. I was under the impression that these motion
switches ONLY work with energy saving lights, when wired through a
relay.
I have tried one also, and it did not work with the energy saving
bulbs - then I read the blurb and it stated that they only worked with
incandescent bulbs. When in doubt, RTFM! I must admit that I was
surprised to read the blurb in the advert for YOUR switch. It clearly
includes energy saving lights. Strange.

On 10 Feb 2008 09:01:25 GMT, andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

>I don't see how this could work with energy saving lamps.

Most CFL's have a  0,1uF capacitor- choke in series - 0.1uF capacitor
noise filter on the input.  That will allow a couple of milliamps to
flow  by itself.  Design the  sensor so that it doesn't draw enough
current to allow the HF oscillator to operate properly and allow the
lamp to strike and you should be able to get a few tens of milliamps
through the noise filter and input rectifiers.

The downside is that the lamps will flicker faintly all the time and
that a small amount of current will be drawn all the time.  The latter
of course is also going to be true of any sensor switch - it must
always consume some energy to work at all.

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:51:24 +0000, Peter Parry 
wrote:

>On 10 Feb 2008 09:01:25 GMT, andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew
>Gabriel) wrote:
>
>>I don't see how this could work with energy saving lamps.
>
>Most CFL's have a  0,1uF capacitor- choke in series - 0.1uF capacitor
>noise filter on the input.  That will allow a couple of milliamps to
>flow  by itself.  Design the  sensor so that it doesn't draw enough
>current to allow the HF oscillator to operate properly and allow the
>lamp to strike and you should be able to get a few tens of milliamps
>through the noise filter and input rectifiers.
>
>The downside is that the lamps will flicker faintly all the time and
>that a small amount of current will be drawn all the time.  The latter
>of course is also going to be true of any sensor switch - it must
>always consume some energy to work at all.

It's funny, the missus and I were talking of 'automatic light
switches' just last night as her sister was asking into similar for
use in her house and that and this thread got me thinking re us.

So, say we wanted to have the 2 x 6' twin flouro's in the kitchen turn
on an off automatically (and to stay on during the continuing presence
of movement) with the idea of energy saving, is there a device that
would provide said but with the ability to be overridden without
having to add much (any?) extra circuitry outside any gadget etc (and
not a human hand of course) ;-)

In the case of our kitchen lights I can fairly easily get to the
ceiling space and have access to live and neutral but would prefer any
'override switching' of a solution to be done via the existing 2-way
pull switches (or similar sized replacements if we need more features
etc).

I guess with 4 x ~80W and there being many instances where the lights
should really be turned off but aren't, there would be some energy
saving?

All the best ..

T i m

T i m wrote:

> So, say we wanted to have the 2 x 6' twin flouro's in the kitchen turn
> on an off automatically (and to stay on during the continuing presence
> of movement) 

Make sure that the sensor can see you wherever you are in the kitchen. 
In my last year of school we had a refurbishment which included loads of 
motion-sensor lights. Thing is, they also built the new toilet cubicles 
with proper brick walls[1], and the sensors were only in the main room. 
So if you lingered too long on the bog you'd be plunged into darkness, 
and have to open the door and wave your legs about to get the light on 
again.

Pete

[1] After some less than successful building[2] in the recent past, they 
took a lot of input from some of the old, experienced teachers. I'm 
pretty sure the solid cubicles were in response to the practice of 
chucking cups of water or clumps of wet bogroll over the partitions into 
occupied traps.
[2] Plasterboard and large groups of teenage boys don't go together very 
well. One wall had people go through it three times to my knowledge.

Thus spake Andrew Gabriel (andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk) unto the assembled multitudes:

>> Before I return them for refund, does anyone else here have this experience
>> with these switches, and did you find a solution?

> I don't see how this could work with energy saving lamps.
> You would need one with a neutral connection so it doesn't
> power itself through the lamp. That would make it difficult
> to fit as a direct swap for most light switches, where there
> is no neutral available.

Well, the notes that came with the switches clearly state that they can be
used with energ-saving lamps, and they also state that you don't need to
worry which way round to connect the live and neutral.

-- 
                                 Andy Clews
                            University of Sussex
                 *** Remove DENTURES if replying by email ***

On 11 Feb, 09:37, A.Cl...@DENTURESsussex.ac.uk wrote:
> Well, the notes that came with the switches clearly state that they can be
> used with energ-saving lamps

I'm afraid you can't believe everything you read.  I purchased one of
these because they also clearly state they can be used with CFLs (in a
given range of wattage):

http://www.timeguard.co.uk/product/home-control-security/security-light-switches/7-day-digital-security-light-switch

But in practice although it would turn the CFLs *off* (and there was
no trace of flicker) it wouldn't turn them *on* again. The CFLs were
those horrible MEM BC3 types fitted in new-build properties; the
evidence was that the off-on transitions from the timeswitch didn't
trigger the CFL's starter.

As an off-topic comment, these Timeguard switches also claim to be '2-
way compatible'.  It's true that they have L1 and L2 connections, but
they can only switch the lights on if all the other switches are in
the correct 'on' state; I don't call that '2-way compatible'!  An old
Superswitch timeswitch (unfortunately no longer available it would
seem) does it properly - it can turn the lights on (or off) whatever
the state of the other 2-way and intermediate switches.

Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/
To reply by email change 'news' to my forename.

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:39:17 +0000, Pete Verdon
<usenet@verdonet.organisation.unitedkingdom.invalid> wrote:

>T i m wrote:
>
>> So, say we wanted to have the 2 x 6' twin flouro's in the kitchen turn
>> on an off automatically (and to stay on during the continuing presence
>> of movement) 
>
>Make sure that the sensor can see you wherever you are in the kitchen. 

Ok, well we have a fairly small 'galley style' kitchen 3m long x 2.25m
wide x 2.5m high. I was thinking of fitting a sensor in the middle of
the ceiling. I have access to one end of the ceiling space and should
be able to get to the back of the one of the 2 way light switches and
the t&e from light feed and could pickup the cable from the back of
the sensor with my rods.

>In my last year of school we had a refurbishment which included loads of 
>motion-sensor lights. Thing is, they also built the new toilet cubicles 
>with proper brick walls[1], and the sensors were only in the main room. 
>So if you lingered too long on the bog you'd be plunged into darkness, 
>and have to open the door and wave your legs about to get the light on 
>again.

LOL

Where I worked last was designed as an open_plan floor and was then
sub-divided into smaller rooms. This did for the ventilation / heating
what your walls did for the ir sensor. :-(

>
>[1] After some less than successful building[2] in the recent past, they 
>took a lot of input from some of the old, experienced teachers. I'm 
>pretty sure the solid cubicles were in response to the practice of 
>chucking cups of water or clumps of wet bogroll over the partitions into 
>occupied traps.

Kids <rolls eyes>

>[2] Plasterboard and large groups of teenage boys don't go together very 
>well. One wall had people go through it three times to my knowledge.

I bet.

All the best ..

T i m

Sir Jestalot * provided us with some light entertainment when he scribed:
>
> I've just bought two of these from windtrap.co.uk - see
> <http://windtrap.co.uk/Energy-Saving-Products/Motion-Sensor-Light-Switch.htm>

A motion detector from Windtrap?  Surely these should be installed in your 
toilet bowl?  :-)

> I fitted these (replacing the manual switches) in my kitchen and hallway,
> both of which are lit by compact fluorescent lamps.   The blurb on the
> website clearly says that the switch can be used with "all light bulbs,
> including energy saving ones".
>
> However, I found that even with the lux adjuster set to minimum, the lamps
> flickered very faintly, showing that the switch is always allowing some
> current through.  Strange, I thought the switch was supposed to be on or 
> off?
> That's no good to me, thought I, so off came the switches again.
>
> Before I return them for refund, does anyone else here have this 
> experience
> with these switches, and did you find a solution?

Yes and yes!

When I had a similar problem, the circuit was actually switching three 
corridor lights, all of which were CFLs.  I changed one of the CFLs to a low 
wattage incandescent lamp, and the problem was solved.

Not ideal, I know, but a reasonable workaround.  And not much use if there's 
only one CFL in your circuit.

These devices have to pass a small, continuous operating current through the 
load, due to the absence of a neutral at the switch location.
-- 
Mike
-Please remove 'safetycatch' from email address before firing off your 
reply-

* Sorry DIY ng, 'in joke' left over from the golden days of 
<uk.media.radio.bbc-r2>

Thus spake Sir Breakalot (*) unto the assembled multitudes:

> A motion detector from Windtrap?  Surely these should be installed in your 
> toilet bowl?  :-)

You'd think that they'd have thought of a more sensible name than
"Windtrap", wouldn't you?

> When I had a similar problem, the circuit was actually switching three 
> corridor lights, all of which were CFLs.  I changed one of the CFLs to a low 
> wattage incandescent lamp, and the problem was solved.

That's gonna create problems when the government bans the use of
incandescents, then.   Would LED lamps provide the same solution?

> Not ideal, I know, but a reasonable workaround.  And not much use if there's 
> only one CFL in your circuit.

> These devices have to pass a small, continuous operating current through the 
> load, due to the absence of a neutral at the switch location.

Thanks (all) for your help, and especially Sir Breakalot.

* sorry; another in-joke from the golden days of uk.media.radio.bbc-r2 :-)

-- 
                                 Andy Clews
                            University of Sussex
                 *** Remove DENTURES if replying by email ***

In article ,
	Peter Parry  writes:
> On 10 Feb 2008 09:01:25 GMT, andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew
> Gabriel) wrote:
> 
>>I don't see how this could work with energy saving lamps.
> 
> Most CFL's have a  0,1uF capacitor- choke in series - 0.1uF capacitor
> noise filter on the input.  That will allow a couple of milliamps to
> flow  by itself.  Design the  sensor so that it doesn't draw enough
> current to allow the HF oscillator to operate properly and allow the
> lamp to strike and you should be able to get a few tens of milliamps
> through the noise filter and input rectifiers.
> 
> The downside is that the lamps will flicker faintly all the time and

That won't do the tube life any favours. Trickling a small current
through a tube with cold electrodes wears the filament coating much
faster than when operating the tube at full power.

> that a small amount of current will be drawn all the time.  The latter
> of course is also going to be true of any sensor switch - it must
> always consume some energy to work at all.

-- 
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:57:21 GMT, T i m  wrote:

>So, say we wanted to have the 2 x 6' twin flouro's in the kitchen turn
>on an off automatically (and to stay on during the continuing presence
>of movement) with the idea of energy saving, is there a device that
>would provide said but with the ability to be overridden without
>having to add much (any?) extra circuitry outside any gadget etc (and
>not a human hand of course) ;-)

I've removed the sensors from the commonly available floodlights for
this.  They can usually be switched on permanently by switching off
and back on within a short time so no extra wiring needed.  I'm not
sure if any of the ceiling mounted sensors can do the same.

One point to remember is that PIR motion detectors are sensitive to
radial  movement but not very sensitive to axial movement.  Movement
across the sensor arc is quickly detected but motion to and from the
sensor less so.  If you have a long thin kitchen this can mean that
the sensor often fails to detect motion and the lights go out when
someone is working there - generally not a good idea in a kitchen.

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:31:56 +0000, Peter Parry 
wrote:

>On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:57:21 GMT, T i m  wrote:
>
>>So, say we wanted to have the 2 x 6' twin flouro's in the kitchen turn
>>on an off automatically (and to stay on during the continuing presence
>>of movement) with the idea of energy saving, is there a device that
>>would provide said but with the ability to be overridden without
>>having to add much (any?) extra circuitry outside any gadget etc (and
>>not a human hand of course) ;-)
>
>I've removed the sensors from the commonly available floodlights for
>this.  They can usually be switched on permanently by switching off
>and back on within a short time so no extra wiring needed.  I'm not
>sure if any of the ceiling mounted sensors can do the same.

I believe they can.
>
>One point to remember is that PIR motion detectors are sensitive to
>radial  movement but not very sensitive to axial movement.  Movement
>across the sensor arc is quickly detected but motion to and from the
>sensor less so.  If you have a long thin kitchen this can mean that
>the sensor often fails to detect motion and the lights go out when
>someone is working there - generally not a good idea in a kitchen.

Hmm. Ok, so even though our kitchen is nearly square the 'walkway' is
long / thin(ish), soooo, what if I had two sensors wired in parallel,
mounted so as to split their rage equally? 

Also, if they were set to stay on for say 10 mins (still better than
them being left on for hours) would there would be less chance of them
cutting off when they shouldn't (I assume the timer would be reset
every time movement was detected)? If they are overrideable I guess I
can turn them to 'ON' in any case?

All the best ..

T i m