The Indian Minister of State for External Affairs, Shashi Tharoor
(author of ‘The Great Indian Novel’) was in the eye of a storm for
answering a question on twitter which went something like this: “Now
that the Govt. of India is enforcing strict austerity measures, when
you fly to your home state the next time, will you be flying cattle
class?” The poser of the query was referring to an appeal that all
ministers should fly economy class. Tharoor’s reply: “Absolutely.
Expressing solidarity with the holy cows, I too shall fly cattle
class.” The powers that be in his party interpreted the usage ‘holy
cows’ as a veiled reference to Sonia Gandhi and her son. Tharoor
insisted that ‘holy cows’ were merely ideas which were sacrosanct and
could never be a reference to actual individuals.
What does the group feel could be  the possible connotations of this
phrase?

At 05:12:32 on Sat, 26 Sep 2009, Paul  wrote in 
:

>What does the group feel could be  the possible connotations of this
>phrase?

My immediate response to that phrase being used by an Indian is that he 
was referring, metaphorically if not literally, to the cows which are 
sacred to Hindus.  I always believed (without researching it) that those 
cows were the original of the phrase now used as you cite, to refer to 
ideas or institutions which are deemed sacrosanct.  In fact, on reading 
your post, I vaguely wondered whether the term "cattle class" would be 
deemed offensive, not to the humans who were comprised in the term, but 
to the sacred cows.

In UK English, the word "cow" used as a pejorative is applied to females 
(and occasionally to camp male homosexuals, usually by other camp male 
homosexuals);  I know less than nothing about Rahul Gandhi, but I think 
it extremely unlikely that he would be referred to as a cow in UK usage.
-- 
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

In fact, on reading
> your post, I vaguely wondered whether the term "cattle class" would be
> deemed offensive, not to the humans who were comprised in the term, but
> to the sacred cows.
There was strong disapproval of the use of the term 'cattle class' to
indicate economy class fliers. Tharoor sought to defend himself on the
grounds that this was a coinage in the original question put to him
and he simply chose to use the same term in his response as he looked
at it as being mildly humourous. He further said he'd be the last one
to insult the economy class traveller as he himself, most often, was
one! He says, if at all, it should be read as a take on the airlines
which offer less than satisfactory amenities to the economy class
travellor.

It seems the idiom is more commonly used in Ame. and Australian
English than in UK English.
And apparently, the etymology of 'holy cow' may not really have
anything to do with India at all though many seem to believe so. See
the entry (quoted below) in The American Heritage Dictionary of
Idioms.

holy cow idiom
Also, holy mackerel or Moses or moly or smoke. An exclamation of
surprise, astonishment, delight, or dismay, as in Holy cow, I forgot
the wine, or Holy mackerel, you won! or Holy Moses, here comes the
teacher! or Holy smoke, I didn't know you were here too. The oldest of
these slangy expletives uses mackerel, dating from about 1800; the one
with Moses dates from about 1850 and cow from about 1920. None has any
literal significance, and moly is a neologism devised to rhyme with
“holy” and possibly a euphemism for “Moses.”

In article
,
 Paul  writes:
>The Indian Minister of State for External Affairs, Shashi Tharoor
>(author of ‘The Great Indian Novel’) was in the eye of a storm for
>answering a question on twitter which went something like this: “Now
>that the Govt. of India is enforcing strict austerity measures, when
>you fly to your home state the next time, will you be flying cattle
>class?” The poser of the query was referring to an appeal that all
>ministers should fly economy class. Tharoor’s reply: “Absolutely.
>Expressing solidarity with the holy cows, I too shall fly cattle
>class.” The powers that be in his party interpreted the usage ‘holy
>cows’ as a veiled reference to Sonia Gandhi and her son. Tharoor
>insisted that ‘holy cows’ were merely ideas which were sacrosanct and
>could never be a reference to actual individuals.
>What does the group feel could be  the possible connotations of this
>phrase?

In British English I think holy cows would be "ideas which were
sacrosanct" rather than referring to people. But it might be different
in India.
-- 
John Hall     "Do you have cornflakes in America?"
              "Well, actually, they're American."
      "So what brings you to Britain then if you have cornflakes already?"
                                  Bill Bryson: "Notes from a Small Island"

But it might be different
> in India.
Could it be? The English used in India is British English or
International English (if the latter is different from B.E, that is).
The concept of Indian English Writing only refers to literature in
English produced by Indian authors. Further, aren't there instances
(in International English) where one refers to a leader held in high
esteem and beyond the scope of being criticised as 'sacred cow' or
'holy cow'? (These doubts have nothing to do with Tharoor, merely
questions of academic curiocity).

At 22:57:16 on Sat, 26 Sep 2009, Paul  wrote in 
:

> But it might be different
>> in India.
>Could it be? The English used in India is British English or
>International English (if the latter is different from B.E, that is).
>The concept of Indian English Writing only refers to literature in
>English produced by Indian authors. Further, aren't there instances
>(in International English) where one refers to a leader held in high
>esteem and beyond the scope of being criticised as 'sacred cow' or
>'holy cow'? (These doubts have nothing to do with Tharoor, merely
>questions of academic curiocity).

But we're not looking at the English word itself, so much as the 
cultural overlay.  It is that which gives ambiguity to some words and 
phrases which might not appear ambiguous in another cultural context. 
The cultural issues connected with "cows", for instance, must surely 
differ amongst Hindus than amongst non-Hindus, and amongst Indians 
generally than amongst non-Indian English speakers?
-- 
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

> But we're not looking at the English word itself, so much as the
> cultural overlay.  It is that which gives ambiguity to some words and
> phrases which might not appear ambiguous in another cultural context.
> The cultural issues connected with "cows", for instance, must surely
> differ amongst Hindus than amongst non-Hindus, and amongst Indians
> generally than amongst non-Indian English speakers?

'Cows', yes. 'Holy cow/s', no. The idiom doesn't exist in any indian
language. What Hindu religion refers to is 'Go  Maata' which is the
same as saying, 'cow, who should be venerated as the mother.' Not an
exact translation for the English idiom 'holy cow' which substantiates
the view that the beginnings of this idiom (in English) may be
independant of any associations with India, and may be the last in the
series, 'holy Moses', 'holy mockerel', 'holy moly', holy smoke' etc.

At 09:01:21 on Sun, 27 Sep 2009, Paul  wrote in 
:

>'Cows', yes. 'Holy cow/s', no. The idiom doesn't exist in any indian
>language. What Hindu religion refers to is 'Go  Maata' which is the
>same as saying, 'cow, who should be venerated as the mother.'

Ah, thanks for that, Paul - useful and informative!
-- 
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

Paul wrote:
<snip>

> And apparently, the etymology of 'holy cow' may not really have
> anything to do with India at all though many seem to believe so. See
> the entry (quoted below) in The American Heritage Dictionary of
> Idioms.
> 
> holy cow idiom
> Also, holy mackerel or Moses or moly or smoke. An exclamation of
> surprise, astonishment, delight, or dismay, as in Holy cow, I forgot
> the wine, or Holy mackerel, you won! or Holy Moses, here comes the
> teacher! or Holy smoke, I didn't know you were here too. The oldest of
> these slangy expletives uses mackerel, dating from about 1800; the one
> with Moses dates from about 1850 and cow from about 1920. None has any
> literal significance, and moly is a neologism devised to rhyme with
> “holy” and possibly a euphemism for “Moses.”

This idiom is an exclamation. It would appear to have quite a different 
origin from the other idiom meaning "sacrosanct ideas or institutions."

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan

> This idiom is an exclamation. It would appear to have quite a different
> origin from the other idiom meaning "sacrosanct ideas or institutions."

Where can one search for the etymology and semantic nuances of the two
idioms?

Paul wrote:
>> This idiom is an exclamation. It would appear to have quite a different
>> origin from the other idiom meaning "sacrosanct ideas or institutions."
> 
> Where can one search for the etymology and semantic nuances of the two
> idioms?

Checking things out in Wikipedia I see that "holy cow!" is linked to an 
entry "sacred cow", which is probably the more common variant of the 
idiom meaning "sacrosanct idea or institution". But I've heard the holy 
cow being used in this context too.

Merriam-Webster Online does have an entry for "sacred cow" and it dates 
it from 1910 and derives it from the Indian custom.

But since in many cases "holy" and "sacred" are synonyms I suspect the 
Indian text refered to by the OP uses "holy cow" in sense of "sacred cow".

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan

My immediate reaction to the statement was, like Molly's, that he was
referring to cows in general, which are of course revered in the Hindu
religion.
As for the phrases, "Holy cow!" is indeed an exclamation, while
"sacred cow", at least in British usage, is an institution/concept/
practice etc which cannot be touched or interfered with as it is held
in such high esteem. So while I can see how they could be confused,
they aren't really related.

Oliver


On 28 Sep, 20:53, Einde O'Callaghan  wrote:
> Paul wrote:
> >> This idiom is an exclamation. It would appear to have quite a different
> >> origin from the other idiom meaning "sacrosanct ideas or institutions."
>
> > Where can one search for the etymology and semantic nuances of the two
> > idioms?
>
> Checking things out in Wikipedia I see that "holy cow!" is linked to an
> entry "sacred cow", which is probably the more common variant of the
> idiom meaning "sacrosanct idea or institution". But I've heard the holy
> cow being used in this context too.
>
> Merriam-Webster Online does have an entry for "sacred cow" and it dates
> it from 1910 and derives it from the Indian custom.
>
> But since in many cases "holy" and "sacred" are synonyms I suspect the
> Indian text refered to by the OP uses "holy cow" in sense of "sacred cow".
>
> Regards, Einde O'Callaghan

So while I can see how they could be confused,
 they aren't really related.

> Oliver

Would you agree with Einde that since "holy" and "sacred" are
synonyms, "holy cow" can be used in the same sense as "sacred cow"?
Tharoor is surely no stranger to the nuances of English idioms, having
authored internationally acclaimed books such as 'The Great Indian
Novel' (1989), 'Reasons of State' (1981), 'From Midnight to the
Millennium' (1997), 'Bookless in Baghdad' (2005) and 'Riot' (2001).
(He lost to Ban Ki Moon in 2006, in the election to the U.N. Sec. Gen.)

On 7 Oct, 15:08, Paul  wrote:
> �So while I can see how they could be confused,
> �they aren't really related.
>
> > Oliver
>
> Would you agree with Einde that since "holy" and "sacred" are
> synonyms, "holy cow" can be used in the same sense as "sacred cow"?
> Tharoor is surely no stranger to the nuances of English idioms, having
> authored internationally acclaimed books such as 'The Great Indian
> Novel' (1989), 'Reasons of State' (1981), 'From Midnight to the
> Millennium' (1997), 'Bookless in Baghdad' (2005) and 'Riot' (2001).
> (He lost to Ban Ki Moon in 2006, in the election to the U.N. Sec. Gen.)

Sure - it *could* be. It would hardly be a crime! But it generally
isn't, certainly not in British English, and using it in that way is
therefore likely to cause misunderstanding.
Yes, "holy" and "sacred" are (more-or-less) synonyms. But it's in the
subtle differences of usage that the fascination of language lies. If
Tharoor said that is what he meant, then he must indeed have meant it
that way (or at least, decided that he wanted others to believe that
he meant it that way!). But IMHO, despite his obvious literary skill,
it is nonetheless a slight error.
Oliver

If  Tharoor said that is what he meant, then he must indeed have
meant it
 that way (or at least, decided that he wanted others to believe that
 he meant it that way!). But IMHO, despite his obvious literary skill,
 it is nonetheless a slight error.
 Oliver

I'm in complete agreement. After all, it was an off-the-cuff  twitter-
post. And he had no motives whatsoever for wanting to insult either
Sonia Gandhi or Hindu sentiments.

Here's the latest.
News item: "Air India flight suspended as rat found on board just
before take off".
Overheard: "Now, that's what Tharoor called 'cattle-class'!"