Hi,

An allegation has been made against me for a s5 POA 1986.
I received a letter from the police over two months after the
allegation asking to attend a voluntary interview. I rang the police
and a message was left for the investigating officer to contact me. To
cut a long story short we kept missing each other as I was working
shifts but was available at times the police officer was working so
the police decided to summons me for the offence as they had to
investigate the offence fully before the six month statutory time
limit for summary offences expired.
The day before my plea hearing I attended a voluntary interview and
denied the allegation. I was elsewhere one hour before the offence
took place. The police officer then completed the interview by saying
that the interview tape would be sent to CPS but I would still have to
attend the court date which I did and pleaded not guilty.
The police officer advised (off tape) that it was one persons word
against another's with no other witnesses. He also advised that there
was a lot of tension between neighbours in the street and I said I was
unaware of any tension.
Although the victim identified me to the police the height she put in
her statement was 5' 10" and I am 6' 2". The lighting was poor and
having read her statement she can only have got a side view of the
offender and couldn't remember what the offender was wearing! I
imagine it has been a case of recognition identification. The only
evidence is the witness statement and circumstantial evidence in the
police report. The police report said that the lighting was poor and
he had to use his torch to illuminate the area concerned.
The victim said that she has had problems with another neighbour but I
have investigated this and discovered that her husband pleaded guilty
to causing harassment to the neighbour. This will certainly affect her
credibility as a witness for the prosecution. My solicitor is in
possession of this evidence and has written to the CPS but is still
awaiting a response….
The CPS have dragged their heels over disclosure that we have asked
for and are still dragging their heels regarding a response to a
skeleton argument of abuse of process about non-disclosure.. The court
has been made aware of these issues.
It has been five months from my first court appearance and I am still
waiting for the CPS to provide full disclosure. They were given 14
days to respond to the skeleton argument and still have no done so
(five weeks after the request was made) that is why I question if the
court will dismiss the case for that reason?

Any responses would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

On 3 Nov, 10:10, ICC  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> An allegation has been made against me for a s5 POA 1986.
> I received a letter from the police over two months after the
> allegation asking to attend a voluntary interview. I rang the police
> and a message was left for the investigating officer to contact me. To
> cut a long story short we kept missing each other as I was working
> shifts but was available at times the police officer was working so
> the police decided to summons me for the offence as they had to
> investigate the offence fully before the six month statutory time
> limit for summary offences expired.
> The day before my plea hearing I attended a voluntary interview and
> denied the allegation. I was elsewhere one hour before the offence
> took place. The police officer then completed the interview by saying
> that the interview tape would be sent to CPS but I would still have to
> attend the court date which I did and pleaded not guilty.
> The police officer advised (off tape) that it was one persons word
> against another's with no other witnesses. He also advised that there
> was a lot of tension between neighbours in the street and I said I was
> unaware of any tension.
> Although the victim identified me to the police the height she put in
> her statement was 5' 10" and I am 6' 2". The lighting was poor and
> having read her statement she can only have got a side view of the
> offender and couldn't remember what the offender was wearing! I
> imagine it has been a case of recognition identification. The only
> evidence is the witness statement and circumstantial evidence in the
> police report. The police report said that the lighting was poor and
> he had to use his torch to illuminate the area concerned.
> The victim said that she has had problems with another neighbour but I
> have investigated this and discovered that her husband pleaded guilty
> to causing harassment to the neighbour. This will certainly affect her
> credibility as a witness for the prosecution. My solicitor is in
> possession of this evidence and has written to the CPS but is still
> awaiting a response….
> The CPS have dragged their heels over disclosure that we have asked
> for and are still dragging their heels regarding a response to a
> skeleton argument of abuse of process about non-disclosure.. The court
> has been made aware of these issues.
> It has been five months from my first court appearance and I am still
> waiting for the CPS to provide full disclosure. They were given 14
> days to respond to the skeleton argument and still have no done so
> (five weeks after the request was made) that is why I question if the
> court will dismiss the case for that reason?

Dismissal is usually within the discretion of the court. I don't think
anyone here is familiar enough with criminal procedure that they'd be
able to say with any accuracy whether the case may be dismissed or not
(and I know you've asked this question a few times, but this time in
more helpful detail).

My (relatively little) experience is that the courts are accustomed to
delays and organisational incompetence in criminal trials, and the CPS
will probably get a few more cracks of the whip before the case is
thrown out (and the breaking point will normally be when the judge or
the mags decide that the delay has been so large as to seriously
prejudice evidence or cause you totally disproportionate distress and
inconvenience).

So, the answer is no, don't get your hopes up yet of a dismissal on
those grounds.

On 3 Nov, 16:00, Ste  wrote:
> On 3 Nov, 10:10, ICC  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi,
>
> > An allegation has been made against me for a s5 POA 1986.
> > I received a letter from the police over two months after the
> > allegation asking to attend a voluntary interview. I rang the police
> > and a message was left for the investigating officer to contact me. To
> > cut a long story short we kept missing each other as I was working
> > shifts but was available at times the police officer was working so
> > the police decided to summons me for the offence as they had to
> > investigate the offence fully before the six month statutory time
> > limit for summary offences expired.
> > The day before my plea hearing I attended a voluntary interview and
> > denied the allegation. I was elsewhere one hour before the offence
> > took place. The police officer then completed the interview by saying
> > that the interview tape would be sent to CPS but I would still have to
> > attend the court date which I did and pleaded not guilty.
> > The police officer advised (off tape) that it was one persons word
> > against another's with no other witnesses. He also advised that there
> > was a lot of tension between neighbours in the street and I said I was
> > unaware of any tension.
> > Although the victim identified me to the police the height she put in
> > her statement was 5' 10" and I am 6' 2". The lighting was poor and
> > having read her statement she can only have got a side view of the
> > offender and couldn't remember what the offender was wearing! I
> > imagine it has been a case of recognition identification. The only
> > evidence is the witness statement and circumstantial evidence in the
> > police report. The police report said that the lighting was poor and
> > he had to use his torch to illuminate the area concerned.
> > The victim said that she has had problems with another neighbour but I
> > have investigated this and discovered that her husband pleaded guilty
> > to causing harassment to the neighbour. This will certainly affect her
> > credibility as a witness for the prosecution. My solicitor is in
> > possession of this evidence and has written to the CPS but is still
> > awaiting a response….
> > The CPS have dragged their heels over disclosure that we have asked
> > for and are still dragging their heels regarding a response to a
> > skeleton argument of abuse of process about non-disclosure.. The court
> > has been made aware of these issues.
> > It has been five months from my first court appearance and I am still
> > waiting for the CPS to provide full disclosure. They were given 14
> > days to respond to the skeleton argument and still have no done so
> > (five weeks after the request was made) that is why I question if the
> > court will dismiss the case for that reason?
>
> Dismissal is usually within the discretion of the court. I don't think
> anyone here is familiar enough with criminal procedure that they'd be
> able to say with any accuracy whether the case may be dismissed or not
> (and I know you've asked this question a few times, but this time in
> more helpful detail).
>
> My (relatively little) experience is that the courts are accustomed to
> delays and organisational incompetence in criminal trials, and the CPS
> will probably get a few more cracks of the whip before the case is
> thrown out (and the breaking point will normally be when the judge or
> the mags decide that the delay has been so large as to seriously
> prejudice evidence or cause you totally disproportionate distress and
> inconvenience).
>
> So, the answer is no, don't get your hopes up yet of a dismissal on
> those grounds.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thank you for you answer, Ste.

On the face of the evidence against me do you think the court will be
able to establish BRD? I have an excellent defence. I have denied
presence, have a witness to confirm my whereabouts (girlfriend) and
have an ace up my sleeve also...

On 4 Nov, 07:40, ICC  wrote:
> On 3 Nov, 16:00, Ste  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 3 Nov, 10:10, ICC  wrote:
>
> > > Hi,
>
> > > An allegation has been made against me for a s5 POA 1986.
> > > I received a letter from the police over two months after the
> > > allegation asking to attend a voluntary interview. I rang the police
> > > and a message was left for the investigating officer to contact me. To
> > > cut a long story short we kept missing each other as I was working
> > > shifts but was available at times the police officer was working so
> > > the police decided to summons me for the offence as they had to
> > > investigate the offence fully before the six month statutory time
> > > limit for summary offences expired.
> > > The day before my plea hearing I attended a voluntary interview and
> > > denied the allegation. I was elsewhere one hour before the offence
> > > took place. The police officer then completed the interview by saying
> > > that the interview tape would be sent to CPS but I would still have to
> > > attend the court date which I did and pleaded not guilty.
> > > The police officer advised (off tape) that it was one persons word
> > > against another's with no other witnesses. He also advised that there
> > > was a lot of tension between neighbours in the street and I said I was
> > > unaware of any tension.
> > > Although the victim identified me to the police the height she put in
> > > her statement was 5' 10" and I am 6' 2". The lighting was poor and
> > > having read her statement she can only have got a side view of the
> > > offender and couldn't remember what the offender was wearing! I
> > > imagine it has been a case of recognition identification. The only
> > > evidence is the witness statement and circumstantial evidence in the
> > > police report. The police report said that the lighting was poor and
> > > he had to use his torch to illuminate the area concerned.
> > > The victim said that she has had problems with another neighbour but I
> > > have investigated this and discovered that her husband pleaded guilty
> > > to causing harassment to the neighbour. This will certainly affect her
> > > credibility as a witness for the prosecution. My solicitor is in
> > > possession of this evidence and has written to the CPS but is still
> > > awaiting a response….
> > > The CPS have dragged their heels over disclosure that we have asked
> > > for and are still dragging their heels regarding a response to a
> > > skeleton argument of abuse of process about non-disclosure.. The court
> > > has been made aware of these issues.
> > > It has been five months from my first court appearance and I am still
> > > waiting for the CPS to provide full disclosure. They were given 14
> > > days to respond to the skeleton argument and still have no done so
> > > (five weeks after the request was made) that is why I question if the
> > > court will dismiss the case for that reason?
>
> > Dismissal is usually within the discretion of the court. I don't think
> > anyone here is familiar enough with criminal procedure that they'd be
> > able to say with any accuracy whether the case may be dismissed or not
> > (and I know you've asked this question a few times, but this time in
> > more helpful detail).
>
> > My (relatively little) experience is that the courts are accustomed to
> > delays and organisational incompetence in criminal trials, and the CPS
> > will probably get a few more cracks of the whip before the case is
> > thrown out (and the breaking point will normally be when the judge or
> > the mags decide that the delay has been so large as to seriously
> > prejudice evidence or cause you totally disproportionate distress and
> > inconvenience).
>
> > So, the answer is no, don't get your hopes up yet of a dismissal on
> > those grounds.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Thank you for you answer, Ste.
>
> On the face of the evidence against me do you think the court will be
> able to establish BRD? I have an excellent defence. I have denied
> presence, have a witness to confirm my whereabouts (girlfriend) and
> have an ace up my sleeve also...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I forgot to mention that no forensic analysis of the circumstantial
evidence was taken and cannot therefore be linked to me.

On 4 Nov, 08:25, ICC  wrote:
> On 4 Nov, 07:40, ICC  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 3 Nov, 16:00, Ste  wrote:
>
> > > On 3 Nov, 10:10, ICC  wrote:
>
> > > > Hi,
>
> > > > An allegation has been made against me for a s5 POA 1986.
> > > > I received a letter from the police over two months after the
> > > > allegation asking to attend a voluntary interview. I rang the police
> > > > and a message was left for the investigating officer to contact me. To
> > > > cut a long story short we kept missing each other as I was working
> > > > shifts but was available at times the police officer was working so
> > > > the police decided to summons me for the offence as they had to
> > > > investigate the offence fully before the six month statutory time
> > > > limit for summary offences expired.
> > > > The day before my plea hearing I attended a voluntary interview and
> > > > denied the allegation. I was elsewhere one hour before the offence
> > > > took place. The police officer then completed the interview by saying
> > > > that the interview tape would be sent to CPS but I would still have to
> > > > attend the court date which I did and pleaded not guilty.
> > > > The police officer advised (off tape) that it was one persons word
> > > > against another's with no other witnesses. He also advised that there
> > > > was a lot of tension between neighbours in the street and I said I was
> > > > unaware of any tension.
> > > > Although the victim identified me to the police the height she put in
> > > > her statement was 5' 10" and I am 6' 2". The lighting was poor and
> > > > having read her statement she can only have got a side view of the
> > > > offender and couldn't remember what the offender was wearing! I
> > > > imagine it has been a case of recognition identification. The only
> > > > evidence is the witness statement and circumstantial evidence in the
> > > > police report. The police report said that the lighting was poor and
> > > > he had to use his torch to illuminate the area concerned.
> > > > The victim said that she has had problems with another neighbour but I
> > > > have investigated this and discovered that her husband pleaded guilty
> > > > to causing harassment to the neighbour. This will certainly affect her
> > > > credibility as a witness for the prosecution. My solicitor is in
> > > > possession of this evidence and has written to the CPS but is still
> > > > awaiting a response….
> > > > The CPS have dragged their heels over disclosure that we have asked
> > > > for and are still dragging their heels regarding a response to a
> > > > skeleton argument of abuse of process about non-disclosure.. The court
> > > > has been made aware of these issues.
> > > > It has been five months from my first court appearance and I am still
> > > > waiting for the CPS to provide full disclosure. They were given 14
> > > > days to respond to the skeleton argument and still have no done so
> > > > (five weeks after the request was made) that is why I question if the
> > > > court will dismiss the case for that reason?
>
> > > Dismissal is usually within the discretion of the court. I don't think
> > > anyone here is familiar enough with criminal procedure that they'd be
> > > able to say with any accuracy whether the case may be dismissed or not
> > > (and I know you've asked this question a few times, but this time in
> > > more helpful detail).
>
> > > My (relatively little) experience is that the courts are accustomed to
> > > delays and organisational incompetence in criminal trials, and the CPS
> > > will probably get a few more cracks of the whip before the case is
> > > thrown out (and the breaking point will normally be when the judge or
> > > the mags decide that the delay has been so large as to seriously
> > > prejudice evidence or cause you totally disproportionate distress and
> > > inconvenience).
>
> > > So, the answer is no, don't get your hopes up yet of a dismissal on
> > > those grounds.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Thank you for you answer, Ste.
>
> > On the face of the evidence against me do you think the court will be
> > able to establish BRD? I have an excellent defence. I have denied
> > presence, have a witness to confirm my whereabouts (girlfriend) and
> > have an ace up my sleeve also...- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I forgot to mention that no forensic analysis of the circumstantial
> evidence was taken and cannot therefore be linked to me.

How exactly does one "forensically analyse" circumstantial evidence?

On 4 Nov, 07:40, ICC  wrote:
> On 3 Nov, 16:00, Ste  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 3 Nov, 10:10, ICC  wrote:
>
> > > Hi,
>
> > > An allegation has been made against me for a s5 POA 1986.
> > > I received a letter from the police over two months after the
> > > allegation asking to attend a voluntary interview. I rang the police
> > > and a message was left for the investigating officer to contact me. To
> > > cut a long story short we kept missing each other as I was working
> > > shifts but was available at times the police officer was working so
> > > the police decided to summons me for the offence as they had to
> > > investigate the offence fully before the six month statutory time
> > > limit for summary offences expired.
> > > The day before my plea hearing I attended a voluntary interview and
> > > denied the allegation. I was elsewhere one hour before the offence
> > > took place. The police officer then completed the interview by saying
> > > that the interview tape would be sent to CPS but I would still have to
> > > attend the court date which I did and pleaded not guilty.
> > > The police officer advised (off tape) that it was one persons word
> > > against another's with no other witnesses. He also advised that there
> > > was a lot of tension between neighbours in the street and I said I was
> > > unaware of any tension.
> > > Although the victim identified me to the police the height she put in
> > > her statement was 5' 10" and I am 6' 2". The lighting was poor and
> > > having read her statement she can only have got a side view of the
> > > offender and couldn't remember what the offender was wearing! I
> > > imagine it has been a case of recognition identification. The only
> > > evidence is the witness statement and circumstantial evidence in the
> > > police report. The police report said that the lighting was poor and
> > > he had to use his torch to illuminate the area concerned.
> > > The victim said that she has had problems with another neighbour but I
> > > have investigated this and discovered that her husband pleaded guilty
> > > to causing harassment to the neighbour. This will certainly affect her
> > > credibility as a witness for the prosecution. My solicitor is in
> > > possession of this evidence and has written to the CPS but is still
> > > awaiting a response….
> > > The CPS have dragged their heels over disclosure that we have asked
> > > for and are still dragging their heels regarding a response to a
> > > skeleton argument of abuse of process about non-disclosure.. The court
> > > has been made aware of these issues.
> > > It has been five months from my first court appearance and I am still
> > > waiting for the CPS to provide full disclosure. They were given 14
> > > days to respond to the skeleton argument and still have no done so
> > > (five weeks after the request was made) that is why I question if the
> > > court will dismiss the case for that reason?
>
> > Dismissal is usually within the discretion of the court. I don't think
> > anyone here is familiar enough with criminal procedure that they'd be
> > able to say with any accuracy whether the case may be dismissed or not
> > (and I know you've asked this question a few times, but this time in
> > more helpful detail).
>
> > My (relatively little) experience is that the courts are accustomed to
> > delays and organisational incompetence in criminal trials, and the CPS
> > will probably get a few more cracks of the whip before the case is
> > thrown out (and the breaking point will normally be when the judge or
> > the mags decide that the delay has been so large as to seriously
> > prejudice evidence or cause you totally disproportionate distress and
> > inconvenience).
>
> > So, the answer is no, don't get your hopes up yet of a dismissal on
> > those grounds.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Thank you for you answer, Ste.
>
> On the face of the evidence against me do you think the court will be
> able to establish BRD?

To be honest I think you did it. But so far you haven't really
described the allegation or the evidence against you. You've said its
s 5 Public Order, which is harassment, but you haven't really said
much more. And ultimately, the case will turn on whether the Mags
believe you and your alibis or not, and obviously they'll be able to
see how you (and your alibis) react in person while your story is
scrutinised by the prosecution.


> I have an excellent defence. I have denied
> presence, have a witness to confirm my whereabouts (girlfriend) and
> have an ace up my sleeve also...

Which is?

ICC  wrote in
news:a4d1e9e7-59bd-4412-8adf-
ea1c93a0b57b@j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.co
m: 

> On 4 Nov, 07:40, ICC  wrote:
>> On 3 Nov, 16:00, Ste  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 3 Nov, 10:10, ICC  wrote:
>>
>> > > Hi,
>>
>> > > An allegation has been made against me for a s5 POA 1986.
>> > > I received a letter from the police over two months after the
>> > > allegation asking to attend a voluntary interview. I rang the
>> > > police and a message was left for the investigating officer
>> > > to contact me. T 
> o
>> > > cut a long story short we kept missing each other as I was
>> > > working shifts but was available at times the police officer
>> > > was working so the police decided to summons me for the
>> > > offence as they had to investigate the offence fully before
>> > > the six month statutory time limit for summary offences
>> > > expired. The day before my plea hearing I attended a
>> > > voluntary interview and denied the allegation. I was
>> > > elsewhere one hour before the offence took place. The police
>> > > officer then completed the interview by saying that the
>> > > interview tape would be sent to CPS but I would still have t 
> o
>> > > attend the court date which I did and pleaded not guilty.
>> > > The police officer advised (off tape) that it was one persons
>> > > word against another's with no other witnesses. He also
>> > > advised that there was a lot of tension between neighbours in
>> > > the street and I said I wa 
> s
>> > > unaware of any tension.
>> > > Although the victim identified me to the police the height
>> > > she put in her statement was 5' 10" and I am 6' 2". The
>> > > lighting was poor and having read her statement she can only
>> > > have got a side view of the offender and couldn't remember
>> > > what the offender was wearing! I imagine it has been a case
>> > > of recognition identification. The only evidence is the
>> > > witness statement and circumstantial evidence in the police
>> > > report. The police report said that the lighting was poor and 
>> > > he had to use his torch to illuminate the area concerned.
>> > > The victim said that she has had problems with another
>> > > neighbour but 
> I
>> > > have investigated this and discovered that her husband
>> > > pleaded guilty to causing harassment to the neighbour. This
>> > > will certainly affect he 
> r
>> > > credibility as a witness for the prosecution. My solicitor is
>> > > in possession of this evidence and has written to the CPS but
>> > > is still awaiting a response….
>> > > The CPS have dragged their heels over disclosure that we have
>> > > asked for and are still dragging their heels regarding a
>> > > response to a skeleton argument of abuse of process about
>> > > non-disclosure.. The cour 
> t
>> > > has been made aware of these issues.
>> > > It has been five months from my first court appearance and I
>> > > am still waiting for the CPS to provide full disclosure. They
>> > > were given 14 days to respond to the skeleton argument and
>> > > still have no done so (five weeks after the request was made)
>> > > that is why I question if the court will dismiss the case for
>> > > that reason? 
>>
>> > Dismissal is usually within the discretion of the court. I
>> > don't think anyone here is familiar enough with criminal
>> > procedure that they'd be able to say with any accuracy whether
>> > the case may be dismissed or not (and I know you've asked this
>> > question a few times, but this time in more helpful detail).
>>
>> > My (relatively little) experience is that the courts are
>> > accustomed to delays and organisational incompetence in
>> > criminal trials, and the CPS will probably get a few more
>> > cracks of the whip before the case is thrown out (and the
>> > breaking point will normally be when the judge or the mags
>> > decide that the delay has been so large as to seriously 
>> > prejudice evidence or cause you totally disproportionate
>> > distress and inconvenience).
>>
>> > So, the answer is no, don't get your hopes up yet of a
>> > dismissal on those grounds.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> Thank you for you answer, Ste.
>>
>> On the face of the evidence against me do you think the court
>> will be able to establish BRD? I have an excellent defence. I
>> have denied presence, have a witness to confirm my whereabouts
>> (girlfriend) and have an ace up my sleeve also...- Hide quoted
>> text - 
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
> 
> I forgot to mention that no forensic analysis of the
> circumstantial evidence was taken and cannot therefore be linked
> to me. 
> 

Circumstantial evidence is evidence that does not show a direct link 
between the suspect and the crime, so I wonder if you have the right 
term here?  IANAL so my definition may not be exact.  I hope the ace 
up your sleeve is known to your lawyer, as revealing things at the 
last minute is not always a good tactic, and can sometimes make 
evidence inadmissible.

-- 
Percy Picacity

Ste wrote:
>
> To be honest I think you did it.

I don't approve of that sort of post in this group.  Too judgmental.  I'd 
rather it was phrased as "I don't think you are going to persuade a court".


>But so far you haven't really
> described the allegation or the evidence against you.

Which only goes to show how one should not be judgmental.

On 5 Nov, 11:35, "The Todal"  wrote:
> Ste wrote:
>
> > To be honest I think you did it.
>
> I don't approve of that sort of post in this group.  Too judgmental.  I'd
> rather it was phrased as "I don't think you are going to persuade a courtPoint taken. In fact I think I'll use that specific phrase in future.



> >But so far you haven't really
> > described the allegation or the evidence against you.
>
> Which only goes to show how one should not be judgmental.

And which only goes to show that this is not a court of law! ;)