I run a small Ltd company supplying other small companies.  I have taken out 
a County Court summons against one of my customers who owes me around 
£9,000.  They have replied to the summons acknowledging the debt, asking to 
pay £50 monthly, claiming debts of several thousand pounds to other 
creditors.  I am inclined to disbelieve this claim.  I want to ask them to 
supply evidence of these debts and also to supply me with a copy of their 
annual accounts.
1) Can I do this?
2) If so, do I write directly to the defendant or do I ask the Court to 
order the defendant to disclose this information?

Thomas

On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 08:35:05 +0100, "Thomas"  wrote:

> I run a small Ltd company supplying other small companies.  I have taken out 
> a County Court summons against one of my customers who owes me around 
> £9,000.  They have replied to the summons acknowledging the debt, asking to 
> pay £50 monthly, claiming debts of several thousand pounds to other 
> creditors.  I am inclined to disbelieve this claim.  I want to ask them to 
> supply evidence of these debts and also to supply me with a copy of their 
> annual accounts.
> 1) Can I do this?
> 2) If so, do I write directly to the defendant or do I ask the Court to 
> order the defendant to disclose this information?

The client has written to confess their debt to you so it is unclear what
standing you have to ask the courts to enquire further into the company's
affairs.

Tony

Anthony R. Gold wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 08:35:05 퍝, "Thomas"  wrote:
> 
>> I run a small Ltd company supplying other small companies.  I have taken out 
>> a County Court summons against one of my customers who owes me around 
>> £9,000.  They have replied to the summons acknowledging the debt, asking to 
>> pay £50 monthly, claiming debts of several thousand pounds to other 
>> creditors.  I am inclined to disbelieve this claim.  I want to ask them to 
>> supply evidence of these debts and also to supply me with a copy of their 
>> annual accounts.
>> 1) Can I do this?
>> 2) If so, do I write directly to the defendant or do I ask the Court to 
>> order the defendant to disclose this information?
> 
> The client has written to confess their debt to you so it is unclear what
> standing you have to ask the courts to enquire further into the company's
> affairs.
> 
> Tony
> 

I am a bit out of date but was under the impression that once a 
judgement was obtained it was up to the plaintiff how they sought to 
enforce it.

Some of the options used to be:
bailiffs
oral examination (individuals only?)
applying to make them bankrupt

Hopefully someone will know a lot more than me.

On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 08:35:05 +0100, "Thomas" 
wrote:

>I run a small Ltd company supplying other small companies.  I have taken out 
>a County Court summons against one of my customers who owes me around 
>£9,000.  They have replied to the summons acknowledging the debt, asking to 
>pay £50 monthly, claiming debts of several thousand pounds to other 
>creditors.  I am inclined to disbelieve this claim.  I want to ask them to 
>supply evidence of these debts and also to supply me with a copy of their 
>annual accounts.
>1) Can I do this?
>2) If so, do I write directly to the defendant or do I ask the Court to 
>order the defendant to disclose this information?
>
>Thomas 
>
>
Have a look at Civil Procedure Rule 14 which deals with admissions
specifically 14.10 which your situation.
http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil/procrules_fin/contents/parts/part14.htm

You also need to look at practice direction 14.
http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil/procrules_fin/contents/practice_directions/pd_part14.htm

Basically tell the court using form N225a that you don't accept the
payment offer and an officer of  the court will determine a payment
rate.  Judgement in your favour will be entered under PD14.4.3
PD14.5.1 shows the factors to be considered in establishing a rate or
payment.

Nigel
replace SPAMHATER with n and t*sc*li with totalise

"Nigel"  wrote in message 
news:lo1gb4hbuhc86dfar4blk4hjag94imbmhp@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 08:35:05 퍝, "Thomas" 
> wrote:
>
>>I run a small Ltd company supplying other small companies.  I have taken 
>>out
>>a County Court summons against one of my customers who owes me around
>>£9,000.  They have replied to the summons acknowledging the debt, asking 
>>to
>>pay £50 monthly, claiming debts of several thousand pounds to other
>>creditors.  I am inclined to disbelieve this claim.  I want to ask them to
>>supply evidence of these debts and also to supply me with a copy of their
>>annual accounts.
>>1) Can I do this?
>>2) If so, do I write directly to the defendant or do I ask the Court to
>>order the defendant to disclose this information?
>>
>>Thomas
>>
>>
> Have a look at Civil Procedure Rule 14 which deals with admissions
> specifically 14.10 which your situation.
> http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil/procrules_fin/contents/parts/part14.htm
>
> You also need to look at practice direction 14.
> http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil/procrules_fin/contents/practice_directions/pd_part14.htm
>
> Basically tell the court using form N225a that you don't accept the
> payment offer and an officer of  the court will determine a payment
> rate.  Judgement in your favour will be entered under PD14.4.3
> PD14.5.1 shows the factors to be considered in establishing a rate or
> payment.
>
> Nigel
> replace SPAMHATER with n and t*sc*li with totalise
>


reject the offer. Get judgment on their admissions. Then, if they want an 
order for payment by instalments, they can apply to the court and produce 
evidence which satisifies the court.

On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 18:05:05 +0100, "Andrew McGee"
 wrote:

>
>reject the offer. Get judgment on their admissions. Then, if they want an 
>order for payment by instalments, they can apply to the court and produce 
>evidence which satisifies the court. 
>

Once the deft has made an admission with an offer for payment by
installments then you have to go through the part 14 process.  Back
your response up with reasons why payment should be made as a single
lump sum in full e.g. business debt and see what the court decide.  If
the deft hasn't submitted any details about means then it's more
likely that you will get a judgement either for payment in one go or
by very large installments.  If you don't put down your reasons it is
likely that judgement will be entered on the terms offered by the
defendant.

If the defendant doesn't like the outcome then they will have to apply
for the court for a variation of the terms, an application you can
oppose.

Nigel
replace SPAMHATER with n and t*sc*li with totalise

"Thomas"  wrote in message 
news:6hpmvbFn50btU1@mid.individual.net...
>I run a small Ltd company supplying other small companies.  I 
>have taken out
> a County Court summons against one of my customers who owes me 
> around
> £9,000.  They have replied to the summons acknowledging the 
> debt, asking to
> pay £50 monthly, claiming debts of several thousand pounds to 
> other
> creditors.  I am inclined to disbelieve this claim.  I want to 
> ask them to
> supply evidence of these debts and also to supply me with a 
> copy of their
> annual accounts.
> 1) Can I do this?
> 2) If so, do I write directly to the defendant or do I ask the 
> Court to
> order the defendant to disclose this information?

I can't answer any of your questions, but an offer to pay the 
£9000 debt by installments of £50 a month, which would take 15 
years to settle, is quite ridiculous. If they're that poor, the 
chances are that they wont be around in 15 years time.
Personally the most I'd give them is a year, and that 
reluctantly.
Mike.

"Nigel"  wrote in message 
news:lo1gb4hbuhc86dfar4blk4hjag94imbmhp@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 08:35:05 +0100, "Thomas" 
> wrote:
>>I run a small Ltd company supplying other small companies.  I have taken 
>>out
>>a County Court summons against one of my customers who owes me around
>>£9,000.  They have replied to the summons acknowledging the debt, asking 
>>to
>>pay £50 monthly, claiming debts of several thousand pounds to other
>>creditors.  I am inclined to disbelieve this claim.  I want to ask them to
>>supply evidence of these debts and also to supply me with a copy of their
>>annual accounts.
>>1) Can I do this?
>>2) If so, do I write directly to the defendant or do I ask the Court to
>>order the defendant to disclose this information?


> Have a look at Civil Procedure Rule 14 which deals with admissions
> specifically 14.10 which your situation.
> http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil/procrules_fin/contents/parts/part14.htm
>
> You also need to look at practice direction 14.
> http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil/procrules_fin/contents/practice_directions/pd_part14.htm
>
> Basically tell the court using form N225a that you don't accept the
> payment offer and an officer of  the court will determine a payment
> rate.  Judgement in your favour will be entered under PD14.4.3
> PD14.5.1 shows the factors to be considered in establishing a rate or
> payment.

Thanks for these references. Some leaflets I have had from the court said 
more or less the same.  The point is, I am pretty sure that the defendant is 
lying about their financial circumstances and is asking for 15 years to pay 
a debt even though they are still trading.  I am not happy with the idea of 
a court officer making a decision based on unverified data.  PD14.5.1(3) 
says any other relevant factors will be taken into account.  I would like 
these other factors to be evidence provided by the defendant that he is in 
the perilous financial position which he asserts.   Am I being unreasonable 
to expect proof to be provided of, what I believe to be, very exaggerated 
debts.

Thomas

In news:g98er3$j6b$1@registered.motzarella.org,
Invisible Man opined:
> Anthony R. Gold wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 08:35:05 +0100, "Thomas" 
>> wrote:
>>> I run a small Ltd company supplying other small companies.  I have
>>> taken out a County Court summons against one of my customers who
>>> owes me around £9,000.  They have replied to the summons
>>> acknowledging the debt, asking to pay £50 monthly, claiming debts
>>> of several thousand pounds to other creditors.  I am inclined to
>>> disbelieve this claim.  I want to ask them to supply evidence of
>>> these debts and also to supply me with a copy of their annual
>>> accounts. 1) Can I do this?
>>> 2) If so, do I write directly to the defendant or do I ask the
>>> Court to order the defendant to disclose this information?
>>
>> The client has written to confess their debt to you so it is unclear
>> what standing you have to ask the courts to enquire further into the
>> company's affairs.
>>
>> Tony
>>
>
> I am a bit out of date but was under the impression that once a
> judgement was obtained it was up to the plaintiff how they sought to
> enforce it.
>
> Some of the options used to be:
> bailiffs
> oral examination (individuals only?)
> applying to make them bankrupt
>
> Hopefully someone will know a lot more than me.

I'm out of date, but I don't think the court will order instalments against 
a limited company. If it can't pay its debts, it should be wound up. A sole 
trader who can't pay his debts should be made bankrupt.

Chris R

On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 16:35:07 +0100, Thomas put finger to keyboard and
typed:

>
>Thanks for these references. Some leaflets I have had from the court said 
>more or less the same.  The point is, I am pretty sure that the defendant is 
>lying about their financial circumstances and is asking for 15 years to pay 
>a debt even though they are still trading.  I am not happy with the idea of 
>a court officer making a decision based on unverified data.  PD14.5.1(3) 
>says any other relevant factors will be taken into account.  I would like 
>these other factors to be evidence provided by the defendant that he is in 
>the perilous financial position which he asserts.   Am I being unreasonable 
>to expect proof to be provided of, what I believe to be, very exaggerated 
>debts.

The court will be as sceptical as you are. As others have said, all
you need to do is reject their offer and get judgement in your favour
based on their admission of the debt. It will then be up to them to
convince the court that they should have time to pay; not up to you to
convince the court that they shouldn't. Unless the defendant can
provide some evidence to support their claim, they're unlikely to get
away with such a small monthly payment.

If they really are so much in debt that they can't afford to pay any
more, then you might well want to consider going down the bankruptcy
route. If that happens, you won't get all your money (as preferred
creditors will get theirs first, and all the other creditors -
including you - will have to share what's left), but from a business
point of view a lump sum payment of part of the debt straight away may
well be preferable to the rather remote possibility of getting all of
the debt paid over a ridiculously long period of time.

Mark

"Andrew McGee"  wrote in message 
news:OLSdnVYaqpJ6tyXVnZ2dnUVZ8sLinZ2d@bt.com...

> reject the offer. Get judgment on their admissions. Then, if they want an 
> order for payment by instalments, they can apply to the court and produce 
> evidence which satisifies the court.

Reading Civil Procedure Rule 14, specifically 14.10
http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil/procrules_fin/contents/parts/part14.htm#rule14_10
the procedure you advocate doesn't appear to be open to me.  It appears that 
the judgement and the decision as to whether or not the defendant can pay by 
installments are decided at the same time.

 I would like to do exactly as you suggest.  Can you give me any references 
to the course you are recommending?

Thomas

In message , at 16:35:07 on Fri, 29 
Aug 2008, Thomas  remarked:
>I am pretty sure that the defendant is lying about their financial 
>circumstances and is asking for 15 years to pay a debt even though they 
>are still trading.

As others have hinted, surely this is tantamount to pleading guilty to 
insolvency?
-- 
Roland Perry

On 30 Aug, 00:40, Mark Goodge 
wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 16:35:07 퍝, Thomas put finger to keyboard and
> typed:
>
>
>
> >Thanks for these references. Some leaflets I have had from the court said
> >more or less the same.  The point is, I am pretty sure that the defendant is
> >lying about their financial circumstances and is asking for 15 years to pay
> >a debt even though they are still trading.  I am not happy with the idea of
> >a court officer making a decision based on unverified data.  PD14.5.1(3)
> >says any other relevant factors will be taken into account.  I would like
> >these other factors to be evidence provided by the defendant that he is in
> >the perilous financial position which he asserts.   Am I being unreasonable
> >to expect proof to be provided of, what I believe to be, very exaggerated
> >debts.
>
> The court will be as sceptical as you are. As others have said, all
> you need to do is reject their offer and get judgement in your favour
> based on their admission of the debt. It will then be up to them to
> convince the court that they should have time to pay; not up to you to
> convince the court that they shouldn't. Unless the defendant can
> provide some evidence to support their claim, they're unlikely to get
> away with such a small monthly payment.
>
> If they really are so much in debt that they can't afford to pay any
> more, then you might well want to consider going down the bankruptcy
> route. If that happens, you won't get all your money (as preferred
> creditors will get theirs first, and all the other creditors -
> including you - will have to share what's left), but from a business
> point of view a lump sum payment of part of the debt straight away may
> well be preferable to the rather remote possibility of getting all of
> the debt paid over a ridiculously long period of time.
>
> Mark

If they're that close to going under, the OP may want to factor into
his considerations whether even a few months' instalment payments will
exceed what he'll get from making them bankrupt, after the preferred
creditors have taken everything.

Chris

On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 16:05:05 퍝, chrisj.doran@proemail.co.uk put
finger to keyboard and typed:

>On 30 Aug, 00:40, Mark Goodge 
>wrote:
>>
>> If they really are so much in debt that they can't afford to pay any
>> more, then you might well want to consider going down the bankruptcy
>> route. If that happens, you won't get all your money (as preferred
>> creditors will get theirs first, and all the other creditors -
>> including you - will have to share what's left), but from a business
>> point of view a lump sum payment of part of the debt straight away may
>> well be preferable to the rather remote possibility of getting all of
>> the debt paid over a ridiculously long period of time.
>
>If they're that close to going under, the OP may want to factor into
>his considerations whether even a few months' instalment payments will
>exceed what he'll get from making them bankrupt, after the preferred
>creditors have taken everything.

At £50 a month though, it's probably hardly worth it. If they really
are that badly off, then they're almost certainly insolvent and will
go under pretty soon no matter what the OP does. So he might as well
get the satisfaction of precipitating it. 

On the other hand, if they're not really that badly off, then the
threat of bankruptcy proceedings will probably result in a much
improved offer.

Mark
-- 
My rather pointless blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk
My less pointless stuff: http://www.good-stuff.co.uk

"Nigel"  wrote in message 
news:1aggb41rdv7guv3g1sh8d55ekpd57furpk@4ax.com...

> Once the deft has made an admission with an offer for payment by
> installments then you have to go through the part 14 process.  Back
> your response up with reasons why payment should be made as a single
> lump sum in full e.g. business debt and see what the court decide.  If
> the deft hasn't submitted any details about means then it's more
> likely that you will get a judgement either for payment in one go or
> by very large installments.  If you don't put down your reasons it is
> likely that judgement will be entered on the terms offered by the
> defendant.
>
> If the defendant doesn't like the outcome then they will have to apply
> for the court for a variation of the terms, an application you can
> oppose.

Would it be wise to include as *one* of my reasons for a single lump sum 
that I don't believe the defendant's debt claims.  Do courts frown on 
claimants accusing defendants of lying?

The defendant may not have sufficient ready cash to pay the full amount but 
I know he owns the freehold on his business premises. I would prefer to 
apply for a charging order on it once I have the judgement for the full 
amount, rather than accept a 15 year repayment schedule.

Thomas

On 30 Aug, 00:40, Mark Goodge 
wrote:

>
> If they really are so much in debt that they can't afford to pay any
> more, then you might well want to consider going down the bankruptcy
> route. If that happens, you won't get all your money (as preferred
> creditors will get theirs first, and all the other creditors -
> including you - will have to share what's left), but from a business
> point of view a lump sum payment of part of the debt straight away may
> well be preferable to the rather remote possibility of getting all of
> the debt paid over a ridiculously long period of time.

Thanks. This is something I may consider once I know what the true financial 
position of the defendant is. From past experience I have good reason to 
disbelieve what he tells me, hence the reason for my asking what discovery 
rights I have.

Thomas