When my father died in 1991 his will left the house to be split equally 
between me and my step sister, but it was to be used by my stepmother 
until her death. No problems there, we all get on and it seems very fair.

What I'm wondering about is how that wish gets taken forward.. my 
stepmother has since sold that house, met another partner and put the 
money from that house into jointly buying a bigger house with her new 
partner.

On her death, what happens next? Is the value to be inherited frozen at 
the time of my fathers death? Is some standard interest rate applied? 
Actual investment proceeds? I'm guessing her new partner will have to 
find the money to put back into her estate even though most of it is tied 
up in his house?

There is no legal wrangle going on or imminent demise looming, I'm just 
curious as to how it all works.

On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:05:05 +0100, PCPaul  wrote:

> When my father died in 1991 his will left the house to be split equally 
> between me and my step sister, but it was to be used by my stepmother 
> until her death. No problems there, we all get on and it seems very fair.
>
> What I'm wondering about is how that wish gets taken forward.. my 
> stepmother has since sold that house, met another partner and put the 
> money from that house into jointly buying a bigger house with her new 
> partner.

I infer that your late father's wishes was merely informal expressions and
that they were never put into a Will.  If he had taken steps to ensure that
his wishes were fulfilled then your mother should not have been free to
sell the property, or at least not free to do so without your permission
and under your control.

If that is right then at this stage I believe you are entirely dependent on
your mother choosing to honour those wishes.  If she intends to do so then
she should take professional advice in setting up an appropriate trust to
protect the bequest from any other heirs, dependents or creditors.  But if
she has decided not to follow your late father's wishes then I believe
there is nothing you or your step sister can do to force her to do so.

Tony

How did she sell a house that didn't belong to her?


"PCPaul"  wrote in message 
news:pmxtk.49177$E41.8415@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> When my father died in 1991 his will left the house to be split equally
> between me and my step sister, but it was to be used by my stepmother
> until her death. No problems there, we all get on and it seems very fair.
>
> What I'm wondering about is how that wish gets taken forward.. my
> stepmother has since sold that house, met another partner and put the
> money from that house into jointly buying a bigger house with her new
> partner.
>
> On her death, what happens next? Is the value to be inherited frozen at
> the time of my fathers death? Is some standard interest rate applied?
> Actual investment proceeds? I'm guessing her new partner will have to
> find the money to put back into her estate even though most of it is tied
> up in his house?
>
> There is no legal wrangle going on or imminent demise looming, I'm just
> curious as to how it all works.
>

PCPaul  posted
>When my father died in 1991 his will left the house to be split equally
>between me and my step sister, but it was to be used by my stepmother
>until her death. No problems there, we all get on and it seems very fair.
>
>What I'm wondering about is how that wish gets taken forward.. my
>stepmother has since sold that house,

What?? If the house was left in trust for you and your sister, your 
stepmother could not have sold it, because she didn't own it. All she 
had was a life interest. It was owned by the trust, and that would have 
shown on the register, and any properly advised purchaser would have run 
a mile.

-- 
Les
"God will save her, fear you not, be you the men you've been.
Get you the sons your fathers got and God will save the Queen."

On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:05:05 +0100, PCPaul  wrote:

>When my father died in 1991 his will left the house to be split equally 
>between me and my step sister, but it was to be used by my stepmother 
>until her death. No problems there, we all get on and it seems very fair.
>
>What I'm wondering about is how that wish gets taken forward.. my 
>stepmother has since sold that house, met another partner and put the 
>money from that house into jointly buying a bigger house with her new 
>partner.
>
>On her death, what happens next? Is the value to be inherited frozen at 
>the time of my fathers death? Is some standard interest rate applied? 
>Actual investment proceeds? I'm guessing her new partner will have to 
>find the money to put back into her estate even though most of it is tied 
>up in his house?
>
>There is no legal wrangle going on or imminent demise looming, I'm just 
>curious as to how it all works.

This is quite a complicated area of law. I *think* the answer is
probably that your stepmother sold the house as trustee, and that the
proceeds of that sale were trust money which the beneficiaries are
entitled to "follow", so that they acquire an interest in whatever was
bought with it. If I am right, then on your stepmother's death, you
and your sister inherit whatever share she owns in the present house
(of which, if you wish, you can force a sale), and no question of
valuation or interest arises. I certainly don't guarantee that this is
correct, though.

I think that, while all concerned are on good terms, you would be well
advised to spend a little money an getting proper legal advice, both
as to the effects of what has been done so far, and what steps, if
any, should be taken now. Don't just sit back and be satisfied with
not understanding, or these transations may come back to bite you.

-- 
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"

On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 15:20:09 +0100, Anthony R. Gold wrote:

> On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:05:05 +0100, PCPaul  wrote:
> 
>> When my father died in 1991 his will left the house to be split equally
>> between me and my step sister, but it was to be used by my stepmother
>> until her death. No problems there, we all get on and it seems very
>> fair.
>>
>> What I'm wondering about is how that wish gets taken forward.. my
>> stepmother has since sold that house, met another partner and put the
>> money from that house into jointly buying a bigger house with her new
>> partner.
> 
> I infer that your late father's wishes was merely informal expressions
> and that they were never put into a Will.  If he had taken steps to
> ensure that his wishes were fulfilled then your mother should not have
> been free to sell the property, or at least not free to do so without
> your permission and under your control.
> 
> If that is right then at this stage I believe you are entirely dependent
> on your mother choosing to honour those wishes.  If she intends to do so
> then she should take professional advice in setting up an appropriate
> trust to protect the bequest from any other heirs, dependents or
> creditors.  But if she has decided not to follow your late father's
> wishes then I believe there is nothing you or your step sister can do to
> force her to do so.

OK... Plenty of answers to ponder there - I'll just put my comments on 
this one...

I believed (until now) that it was stated in the will, but I have heard 
nothing about a trust. Certainly I wasn't asked about her selling it, and 
have never signed anything about it.

I suspect I'll have to find a tactful way to ask my stepmother about it. 
My own divorce is going to be finalised in the next month or so, so that 
will be a good opportunity to talk about wills and stuff, since I'll be 
rewriting my own.

I suspect this answer is along the right lines and it was an informal 
agreement. I'll have to wait and see...

> When my father died in 1991 his will left the house to be split equally
> between me and my step sister, but it was to be used by my stepmother
> until her death. No problems there, we all get on and it seems very fair.
>
> What I'm wondering about is how that wish gets taken forward.. my
> stepmother has since sold that house, met another partner and put the
> money from that house into jointly buying a bigger house with her new
> partner.
>
> On her death, what happens next? Is the value to be inherited frozen at
> the time of my fathers death? Is some standard interest rate applied?
> Actual investment proceeds? I'm guessing her new partner will have to
> find the money to put back into her estate even though most of it is tied
> up in his house?
>
> There is no legal wrangle going on or imminent demise looming, I'm just
> curious as to how it all works.


How was your stepmother able to sell a house she did not own? Was the house 
actually left in trust under your father's will?

Peter Crosland

Don Aitken  posted

>This is quite a complicated area of law. I *think* the answer is
>probably that your stepmother sold the house as trustee, and that the
>proceeds of that sale were trust money which the beneficiaries are
>entitled to "follow", so that they acquire an interest in whatever was
>bought with it. If I am right, then on your stepmother's death, you
>and your sister inherit whatever share she owns in the present house
>(of which, if you wish, you can force a sale), and no question of
>valuation or interest arises. I certainly don't guarantee that this is
>correct, though.

The first thing for him to do is get a copy of the probate.

-- 
Les
"God will save her, fear you not, be you the men you've been.
Get you the sons your fathers got and God will save the Queen."

"PCPaul"  wrote in message 
news:XPytk.49211$E41.37772@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>
> I believed (until now) that it was stated in the will, but I have heard
> nothing about a trust. Certainly I wasn't asked about her selling it, and
> have never signed anything about it.

You can get hold of a copy of the will from ... I'm not sure, but someone 
will post that in a minute, and I expect it will only cost a couple of 
Pounds to get.

> My own divorce is going to be finalised in the next month or so,

How can that be done if you don't know what your assets are? You don't want 
it being reopened later, surely? You need to discuss this with your 
solicitor asap.

"Big Les Wade"  wrote in message 
news:X58yIEJZ4qtIFwSo@obviously.invalid...
>
> What?? If the house was left in trust for you and your sister, your 
> stepmother could not have sold it, because she didn't own it. All she had 
> was a life interest. It was owned by the trust, and that would have shown 
> on the register, and any properly advised purchaser would have run a mile.

Actually, there is no requirement for the trust to be shown on the land 
registry.

>> I believed (until now) that it was stated in the will, but I have heard
>> nothing about a trust. Certainly I wasn't asked about her selling it, and
>> have never signed anything about it.
>
> You can get hold of a copy of the will from ... I'm not sure, but someone
> will post that in a minute, and I expect it will only cost a couple of
> Pounds to get.

The Probate Office will supply a copy for £5.00. You can apply by post to 
the York office or phone the local office and ask them which can be quicker.

>> My own divorce is going to be finalised in the next month or so,
>
> How can that be done if you don't know what your assets are? You don't 
> want
> it being reopened later, surely? You need to discuss this with your
> solicitor asap.

Quite.

Peter Crosland

GB  posted
>
>"Big Les Wade"  wrote in message
>news:X58yIEJZ4qtIFwSo@obviously.invalid...
>>
>> What?? If the house was left in trust for you and your sister, your
>> stepmother could not have sold it, because she didn't own it. All she had
>> was a life interest. It was owned by the trust, and that would have shown
>> on the register, and any properly advised purchaser would have run a mile.
>
>Actually, there is no requirement for the trust to be shown on the land
>registry.

That would be true if the arrangement was informal. But if the will 
explicitly left the property to a trust,  that's what should be on the 
register, together with a note regarding the life interest.

-- 
Les
"God will save her, fear you not, be you the men you've been.
Get you the sons your fathers got and God will save the Queen."

"Big Les Wade"  wrote in message 
news:BPRXVHPvO9tIFwiY@obviously.invalid...
> GB  posted
>>
>>"Big Les Wade"  wrote in message
>>news:X58yIEJZ4qtIFwSo@obviously.invalid...
>>>
>>> What?? If the house was left in trust for you and your sister, your
>>> stepmother could not have sold it, because she didn't own it. All she 
>>> had
>>> was a life interest. It was owned by the trust, and that would have 
>>> shown
>>> on the register, and any properly advised purchaser would have run a 
>>> mile.
>>
>>Actually, there is no requirement for the trust to be shown on the land
>>registry.
>
> That would be true if the arrangement was informal. But if the will 
> explicitly left the property to a trust,  that's what should be on the 
> register, together with a note regarding the life interest.

I am truly surprised by that. I am not a lawyer, but I ran about 100 trusts 
over a period of 25 years. Many owned property, and the standard procedure 
as carried out by solicitors acting for the trusts was simply to register 
the property (or any other assets) in the joint names of the trustees. 
Occasionally, the name of the trust was mentioned, but that was very much 
the exception rather than the rule. Hmm, strange.

GB  posted
>
>I am truly surprised by that.

I too am very surprised by what you say. I only described what *should* 
happen, not what is actually done in every case.

>I am not a lawyer, but I ran about 100 trusts
>over a period of 25 years.

In what capacity? Charity?

>Many owned property, and the standard procedure
>as carried out by solicitors acting for the trusts

Was it the same firm of solicitors all the time?

>was simply to register
>the property (or any other assets) in the joint names of the trustees.

Was there not an entry in the Proprietorship Register stating that the 
named "proprietors" were trustees and not beneficial owners? There 
should have been, because that section states (or used to state) that it 
contained "any entries affecting the right of disposal". In very many 
cases, not just the OP's, the trustee has no right to sell the property, 
and a prospective purchaser who consults the register absolutely needs 
to know that.

>Occasionally, the name of the trust was mentioned, but that was very much
>the exception rather than the rule. Hmm, strange.

Without such an entry, the Land Registry would clearly not be doing its 
job properly, as we can see from the OP's case.

-- 
Les
"God will save her, fear you not, be you the men you've been.
Get you the sons your fathers got and God will save the Queen."

"Big Les Wade"  wrote in message 
news:TD1TWyGwBDuIFw5R@obviously.invalid...
> GB  posted
>>
>>I am truly surprised by that.
>
> I too am very surprised by what you say. I only described what *should* 
> happen, not what is actually done in every case.
>
>>I am not a lawyer, but I ran about 100 trusts
>>over a period of 25 years.
>
> In what capacity? Charity?

Pension schemes

>
>>Many owned property, and the standard procedure
>>as carried out by solicitors acting for the trusts
>
> Was it the same firm of solicitors all the time?
>

No

>>was simply to register
>>the property (or any other assets) in the joint names of the trustees.
>
> Was there not an entry in the Proprietorship Register stating that the 
> named "proprietors" were trustees and not beneficial owners? There should 
> have been, because that section states (or used to state) that it 
> contained "any entries affecting the right of disposal". In very many 
> cases, not just the OP's, the trustee has no right to sell the property, 
> and a prospective purchaser who consults the register absolutely needs to 
> know that.
>
>>Occasionally, the name of the trust was mentioned, but that was very much
>>the exception rather than the rule. Hmm, strange.
>
> Without such an entry, the Land Registry would clearly not be doing its 
> job properly, as we can see from the OP's case.
>

Do you have a reference for this?

> -- 
> Les
> "God will save her, fear you not, be you the men you've been.
> Get you the sons your fathers got and God will save the Queen."
>