The "Train Fare" saga has made me wonder about something that happened
to me this week.

I bought a cheap day return from Paddington ("London Terminals"), but
on the return journey the train stopped at a station which was more
convenient, so I got out. I was expecting, especially after following
the Train Fare thread, to have problems with the staff at the barrier,
but on this occasion everyone seemed to have gone home, so that I
could just walk out.

Was I breaking the terms of the ticket by leaving the train before it
had reached a London Terminal? And if so, would the staff have been
entitled physically to prevent me from leaving the station until I'd
paid a fine? 

Apologies if this comes up regularly, I've only been reading for a few
weeks.

-- 
Jo Lonergan

Jo Lonergan wrote:

> Was I breaking the terms of the ticket by leaving the train before it
> had reached a London Terminal? And if so, would the staff have been
> entitled physically to prevent me from leaving the station until I'd
> paid a fine?

On a Cheap Day Return, no, as break of journey and ending short are
permitted on both portions of the ticket.  However, that probably
isn't the question you wanted answered, which is presumably what would
have happened if this was done on a ticket where it was explicitly
*not* permitted to do this, such as Advance or Megatrain.

My understanding in that situation is that, if you left the train
early on one of those tickets, you would be treated as if you had
completed the journey you did with no ticket at all (as by doing so
your ticket was rendered invalid, and thus it ceased to exist as a
valid ticket).  Thus, the train company would have the option of
charging you a discounted ticket for that journey (unlikely), charging
you the full fare (the most likely in a non-penalty-fare area),
charging you a Penalty Fare (the most likely in a penalty fare area)
or prosecuting you (more likely than it used to be, but not that
likely unless they think you are deliberately trying to defraud, often
on a repeated basis).

If they chose one of the first 3, and you refused to pay, it would be
pursued in the same way as if no fare was paid.  This might be by way
of chasing it up as a civil debt (in the case of a Penalty Fare you
don't have to pay on the spot if you give your details) or by
recoursing to option 4 of prosecution.

In no case, though, are staff permitted to physically prevent you
leaving the station once the formalities for each of the options they
have are carried out, though they may seek your arrest by the BTP if
you refuse to pay *and* refuse to give correct details in order to
allow those options to be pursued.

Neil

> I bought a cheap day return from Paddington ("London Terminals"), but
> on the return journey the train stopped at a station which was more
> convenient, so I got out. I was expecting, especially after following

Cheap day return tickets allow you to break the journey on both the 
outward and return trips.

 From the National Conditions of Carriage:

"16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in 
the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the 
ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also 
end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) 
before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may 
not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is 
prohibited, in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this 
clear in their notices and other publications."

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:30:07 +0100, "a@b.invalid" <a@b.invalid> wrote:

>> I bought a cheap day return from Paddington ("London Terminals"), but
>> on the return journey the train stopped at a station which was more
>> convenient, so I got out. I was expecting, especially after following
>
>Cheap day return tickets allow you to break the journey on both the 
>outward and return trips.

How confusing! Not that long ago the same company made me buy two
returns, Paddington to Reading and Reading to Bath, so that I could
stop off and have lunch with friends on the way. But if I'd had a
cheap day return it seems I could have done so anyway.

> From the National Conditions of Carriage:
>
>"16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
>You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in 
>the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the 
>ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also 
>end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) 
>before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may 
>not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is 
>prohibited, in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this 
>clear in their notices and other publications."

But really, how can you know? I'm sure such details aren't in the Help
text you can access when buying from the machine. When you enter the
details of your journey in the machine and are offered 8 different
fares, is it reasonable to expect you to note down all their names and
consult a copy of the NCC before return to make your choice?

-- 
Jo Lonergan

In message , at 11:45:06 on 
Wed, 23 Jul 2008, Jo Lonergan  remarked:
>>Cheap day return tickets allow you to break the journey on both the
>>outward and return trips.
>
>How confusing! Not that long ago the same company made me buy two
>returns, Paddington to Reading and Reading to Bath, so that I could
>stop off and have lunch with friends on the way. But if I'd had a
>cheap day return it seems I could have done so anyway.

But there isn't a CDR fare from London to Bath, only a Saver. Which 
doesn't permit a break on the *outward* portion, only the *Return*.
-- 
Roland Perry

> But really, how can you know? I'm sure such details aren't in the Help

The common ticket types are here on the National Rail website, which was 
down this morning but now appears to be back up.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/purchasing_tickets/ticket_types.html

In message , at 11:45:06 on 
Wed, 23 Jul 2008, Jo Lonergan  remarked:
>> From the National Conditions of Carriage:
>>
>>"16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
>>You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in

[...]

>But really, how can you know? I'm sure such details aren't in the Help
>text you can access when buying from the machine. When you enter the
>details of your journey in the machine and are offered 8 different
>fares, is it reasonable to expect you to note down all their names and
>consult a copy of the NCC before return to make your choice?

You are indeed supposed to consult such reference as the Conditions of 
Carriage eg:

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/en/pj/tr?ticketTypeCode=SVR

If you want to do something that's "unusual". Where breaking a journey 
is clearly regarded as unusual. It (breaking a journey) is also 
something that's quite difficult to do on a cheap air ticket as well; so 
it's not just the railways who make breaks of journey one of the reasons 
to buy a more flexible (and higher priced) tickets.
-- 
Roland Perry

Neil Williams wrote:
> Jo Lonergan wrote:
> 
>> Was I breaking the terms of the ticket by leaving the train before it
>> had reached a London Terminal? And if so, would the staff have been
>> entitled physically to prevent me from leaving the station until I'd
>> paid a fine?
> 
> On a Cheap Day Return, no, as break of journey and ending short are
> permitted on both portions of the ticket.  However, that probably
> isn't the question you wanted answered, which is presumably what would
> have happened if this was done on a ticket where it was explicitly
> *not* permitted to do this, such as Advance or Megatrain.
> 
> My understanding in that situation is that, if you left the train
> early on one of those tickets, you would be treated as if you had
> completed the journey you did with no ticket at all (as by doing so
> your ticket was rendered invalid, and thus it ceased to exist as a
> valid ticket).  Thus, the train company would have the option of
> charging you a discounted ticket for that journey (unlikely), charging
> you the full fare (the most likely in a non-penalty-fare area),
> charging you a Penalty Fare (the most likely in a penalty fare area)
> or prosecuting you (more likely than it used to be, but not that
> likely unless they think you are deliberately trying to defraud, often
> on a repeated basis).
> 
> If they chose one of the first 3, and you refused to pay, it would be
> pursued in the same way as if no fare was paid.  This might be by way
> of chasing it up as a civil debt (in the case of a Penalty Fare you
> don't have to pay on the spot if you give your details) or by
> recoursing to option 4 of prosecution.
> 
> In no case, though, are staff permitted to physically prevent you
> leaving the station once the formalities for each of the options they
> have are carried out, though they may seek your arrest by the BTP if
> you refuse to pay *and* refuse to give correct details in order to
> allow those options to be pursued.
> 
> Neil
> 

Would this apply if the early termination of the journey was for a 
reason such as illness?

-- 
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious 
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
<www.thyromind.info> <www.thyroiduk.org> <www.altsupportthyroid.org>

Rod wrote:

> Would this apply if the early termination of the journey was for a
> reason such as illness?

Good question.  As there is no specific exclusion in the T&Cs for
illness, one would assume it applied anyway in a legal sense, but if
you're carted off the station in an ambulance it's hardly as if
they're going to object.

Neil

In message , at 11:55:17 on Wed, 23 
Jul 2008, Rod  remarked:
>Would this apply if the early termination of the journey was for a 
>reason such as illness?

There does not seem to be a suitable exclusion clause, which you might 
ascribe to a lack of rigour, or may be evidence that people expect a 
certain amount of discretion to be practised.
-- 
Roland Perry

In article ,
Neil  Williams   wrote:
>My understanding in that situation is that, if you left the train
>early on one of those tickets, you would be treated as if you had
>completed the journey you did with no ticket at all (as by doing so
>your ticket was rendered invalid, and thus it ceased to exist as a
>valid ticket).

On the other hand if you were met at the barrier by a staff member who
says your ticket is invalid, you might say `oh I was just looking for
the sandwich shop / phone topup / etc and I'm going to get on the next
train'.

Not necessarily the most plausible story but hard to disprove.  Is it
permitted to needlessly change trains ?  I can think of any number of
reasons why you might want to.

-- 
Ian Jackson                  personal email: 
These opinions are my own.        http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/
PGP2 key 1024R/0x23f5addb,     fingerprint 5906F687 BD03ACAD 0D8E602E FCF37657

"Ian Jackson"  wrote in message 
news:+At*7ADis@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
> In article 
> ,
> Neil  Williams   wrote:
>>My understanding in that situation is that, if you left the train
>>early on one of those tickets, you would be treated as if you had
>>completed the journey you did with no ticket at all (as by doing so
>>your ticket was rendered invalid, and thus it ceased to exist as a
>>valid ticket).
>
> On the other hand if you were met at the barrier by a staff member who
> says your ticket is invalid, you might say `oh I was just looking for
> the sandwich shop / phone topup / etc and I'm going to get on the next
> train'.
>
> Not necessarily the most plausible story but hard to disprove.  Is it
> permitted to needlessly change trains ?  I can think of any number of
> reasons why you might want to.

As a general rule, the type of ticket that does not allow travelling short, 
also requires travel on only on specific train (I.e the one that you have 
just got off).

(there are tickets that allow you to make a connection at a branch onto "any 
train", but the availability of such tickets is dependent on the 
availability on the main part of the route.  As such, this will always cost 
more than a ticket for just the main part would have cost)

tim

"Neil Williams"  wrote in message 
news:8bc7b9d7-d21d-4a70-a127-06ae278ae17c@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Jo Lonergan wrote:
>
>> Was I breaking the terms of the ticket by leaving the train before it
>> had reached a London Terminal? And if so, would the staff have been
>> entitled physically to prevent me from leaving the station until I'd
>> paid a fine?
>
> On a Cheap Day Return, no, as break of journey and ending short are
> permitted on both portions of the ticket.  However, that probably
> isn't the question you wanted answered, which is presumably what would
> have happened if this was done on a ticket where it was explicitly
> *not* permitted to do this, such as Advance or Megatrain.
>
Is it a new condition of advance tickets that stopping short is not 
permitted?  I've been advised to do exactly that, and 'joining late' by 
railway telesales staff int he past to save them work (I assumed).

In message <g682ar$co9$1@frank-exchange-of-views.oucs.ox.ac.uk>, at 
21:00:10 on Wed, 23 Jul 2008, mert1639  
remarked:
>Is it a new condition of advance tickets that stopping short is not
>permitted?

Yes, a new condition to go with the new name a few months ago.

>I've been advised to do exactly that, and 'joining late' by
>railway telesales staff int he past to save them work (I assumed).

Not any more.
-- 
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry"  wrote in message 
news:IpbjvhHhJ5hIFARN@perry.co.uk...
> In message <g682ar$co9$1@frank-exchange-of-views.oucs.ox.ac.uk>, at 
> 21:00:10 on Wed, 23 Jul 2008, mert1639  
> remarked:
>>Is it a new condition of advance tickets that stopping short is not
>>permitted?
>
> Yes, a new condition to go with the new name a few months ago.
>
>>I've been advised to do exactly that, and 'joining late' by
>>railway telesales staff int he past to save them work (I assumed).
>
> Not any more.
Thanks.  That's good to know.

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:15:16 +0100, Roland Perry 
wrote:

>In message , at 11:45:06 on 
>Wed, 23 Jul 2008, Jo Lonergan  remarked:
>>> From the National Conditions of Carriage:
>>>
>>>"16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
>>>You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in
>
>[...]
>
>>But really, how can you know? I'm sure such details aren't in the Help
>>text you can access when buying from the machine. When you enter the
>>details of your journey in the machine and are offered 8 different
>>fares, is it reasonable to expect you to note down all their names and
>>consult a copy of the NCC before return to make your choice?
>
>You are indeed supposed to consult such reference as the Conditions of 
>Carriage eg:
>
>http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/en/pj/tr?ticketTypeCode=SVR
>
So how can you do this at Paddington Station, when you're buying a
ticket from a machine?

>If you want to do something that's "unusual". Where breaking a journey 
>is clearly regarded as unusual. It (breaking a journey) is also 
>something that's quite difficult to do on a cheap air ticket as well; so 
>it's not just the railways who make breaks of journey one of the reasons 
>to buy a more flexible (and higher priced) tickets.

Well yes, but if I were flying, let's say, from London to Zurich and
wanted to break the journey in Paris, I'd have to book different
flights anyway. Normally you can't get off without a parachute, and if
you could it would have to be without any luggage you'd checked in. I
don't see anything unusual in breaking a rail journey to visit friends
who live in between.

My impression is that the railways have taken the airlines as a model
from the very beginning of privatisation, a sort of delusion of
grandeur, if only the airlines had any grandeur. But the airlines,
AIUI, have never actually gone into a courtroom with their arguments
that you have, for example, to fly all the legs in the order you've
booked them.

Tomorrow I'm off back to  a country where public transport functions
extremely well and the population is well disposed towards it, where a
rail journey is priced by the kilometer regardless of when you book,
where there are no barriers, and if you get onto a train without a
ticket there's no problem, they will just sell you one at the usual
price, or charge you GBP 1.5 extra if they're in a bad mood.  What a
relief!

-- 
Jo Lonergan

"Jo Lonergan"  wrote in message 
news:ci8f841ek9la9c1lpai181ckcs23ghe09h@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:15:16 +0100, Roland Perry 
> wrote:
>
>>In message , at 11:45:06 on
>>Wed, 23 Jul 2008, Jo Lonergan  remarked:
>>>> From the National Conditions of Carriage:
>>>>
>>>>"16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
>>>>You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>>But really, how can you know? I'm sure such details aren't in the Help
>>>text you can access when buying from the machine. When you enter the
>>>details of your journey in the machine and are offered 8 different
>>>fares, is it reasonable to expect you to note down all their names and
>>>consult a copy of the NCC before return to make your choice?
>>
>>You are indeed supposed to consult such reference as the Conditions of
>>Carriage eg:
>>
>>http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/en/pj/tr?ticketTypeCode=SVR
>>
> So how can you do this at Paddington Station, when you're buying a
> ticket from a machine?
>
I'd expect people to go to the booking office for any unsual requests so 
things can be checked out.  However, I'm not sure that a break of jouney is 
really that unusual.
There really ought to be clearer information about restrictions on tickets 
dispalyed at ticket machines and booking offices.  I know they've simplified 
the ticketing strucutre somewhat, but more is still required.

On 2008-07-23, Jo Lonergan  wrote:
>>You are indeed supposed to consult such reference as the Conditions of 
>>Carriage eg:
>>
>>http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/en/pj/tr?ticketTypeCode=SVR
>
> So how can you do this at Paddington Station, when you're buying a
> ticket from a machine?

You go to the ticket office and ask to see a copy. In my experience,
this will cause the staff to look shocked and confused, and to spend
twenty minutes or more rooting around behind the scenes trying to find
a copy.

In message , at 22:45:04 on 
Wed, 23 Jul 2008, Jo Lonergan  remarked:

>>You are indeed supposed to consult such reference as the Conditions of
>>Carriage eg:
>>
>>http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/en/pj/tr?ticketTypeCode=SVR
>>
>So how can you do this at Paddington Station, when you're buying a
>ticket from a machine?

You can't, but the alternative [if you want full disclosure at every 
point of sale] seems to be to remove the ability to buy cheap tickets 
from a machine :(

It's a question that often crops up, but many of the rules about buying 
tickets (eg what routes you can use) are not widely publicised at all.

>>If you want to do something that's "unusual". Where breaking a journey
>>is clearly regarded as unusual. It (breaking a journey) is also
>>something that's quite difficult to do on a cheap air ticket as well; so
>>it's not just the railways who make breaks of journey one of the reasons
>>to buy a more flexible (and higher priced) tickets.
>
>Well yes, but if I were flying, let's say, from London to Zurich and
>wanted to break the journey in Paris, I'd have to book different
>flights anyway.

(Assuming you man "different tickets"...) Only if you were flying on a 
low-cost airline. Traditional airlines could sell you a ticket with a 
stopover.

>Normally you can't get off without a parachute, and if
>you could it would have to be without any luggage you'd checked in.

It's quite common to do a stopover as part of a long distance trip. You 
can have your luggage with you simply by checking it to the intermediate 
airport, not the final destination.

>I don't see anything unusual in breaking a rail journey to visit 
>friends who live in between.

In terms of percentage of journeys made it is quite unusual, and many 
tickets don't allow it.

>My impression is that the railways have taken the airlines as a model
>from the very beginning of privatisation, a sort of delusion of
>grandeur, if only the airlines had any grandeur.

The ticketing rules we are talking about haven't changed much due to 
privatisation.

>But the airlines, AIUI, have never actually gone into a courtroom with 
>their arguments that you have, for example, to fly all the legs in the 
>order you've booked them.

They probably don't need to, as their T&C are very clear on the matter.

>Tomorrow I'm off back to  a country where public transport functions
>extremely well and the population is well disposed towards it, where a
>rail journey is priced by the kilometer regardless of when you book,
>where there are no barriers, and if you get onto a train without a
>ticket there's no problem, they will just sell you one at the usual
>price, or charge you GBP 1.5 extra if they're in a bad mood.  What a
>relief!

The equivalent in the UK would be to only buy Open Returns. But you 
seemed to want to take advantage of cheaper tickets, but which have 
restrictions.
-- 
Roland Perry

In message <g689te$fi2$1@frank-exchange-of-views.oucs.ox.ac.uk>, at 
23:05:03 on Wed, 23 Jul 2008, mert1639  
remarked:
>However, I'm not sure that a break of jouney is really that unusual.

It's not "unusual" in the sense of "it's unusual to have pink hair", but 
it isn't commonly a requirement of travellers.

>There really ought to be clearer information about restrictions on tickets
>dispalyed at ticket machines and booking offices.  I know they've simplified
>the ticketing strucutre somewhat, but more is still required.

Be careful what you wish for! The new rules coming in this Autumn may 
well prohibit all "breaks" etc on all non-fullfare tickets.
-- 
Roland Perry

In message <slrng8fnoj.3b0.jon+usenet@snowy.squish.net>, at 02:50:17 on 
Thu, 24 Jul 2008, Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> remarked:
>>>http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/en/pj/tr?ticketTypeCode=SVR
>>
>> So how can you do this at Paddington Station, when you're buying a
>> ticket from a machine?
>
>You go to the ticket office and ask to see a copy. In my experience,
>this will cause the staff to look shocked and confused, and to spend
>twenty minutes or more rooting around behind the scenes trying to find
>a copy.

Although they won't need to do that to answer a question about BoJ on a 
Saver, that's well enough known about.
-- 
Roland Perry

In article ,
tim.....  wrote:
>"Ian Jackson"  wrote in message 
>news:+At*7ADis@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
>> On the other hand if you were met at the barrier by a staff member who
>> says your ticket is invalid, you might say `oh I was just looking for
>> the sandwich shop / phone topup / etc and I'm going to get on the next
>> train'.
>
>As a general rule, the type of ticket that does not allow travelling short, 
>also requires travel on only on specific train (I.e the one that you have 
>just got off).

The outbound half of an ordinary walk-up saver return doesn't specify
particular trains but does not allow a break of journey (and thus
presumably doesn't allow cutting short).

>(there are tickets that allow you to make a connection at a branch onto "any 
>train", but the availability of such tickets is dependent on the 
>availability on the main part of the route.  As such, this will always cost 
>more than a ticket for just the main part would have cost)

Also many advance tickets are partially for travel on non-reservable
trains.  For example in an AP ticket to Cambridge from anywhere via
London, the Cambridge<->London leg does not have seat reservations and
is thus unrestricted.  So the situation I describe could arise then
too.

-- 
Ian Jackson                  personal email: 
These opinions are my own.        http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/
PGP2 key 1024R/0x23f5addb,     fingerprint 5906F687 BD03ACAD 0D8E602E FCF37657

On 24 Jul, 13:40, Ian Jackson  wrote:

> The outbound half of an ordinary walk-up saver return doesn't specify
> particular trains but does not allow a break of journey (and thus
> presumably doesn't allow cutting short).

Traditionally the view with the SVR outward/SVS has been that ending
short is permitted, but BoJ is not.  As such, the ticket becomes
invalid as soon as you leave railway premises and cannot be
"restarted", but by merely ending short you do not invalidate the
ticket for the journey completed before doing so.

Starting late has been more up for debate.

Neil

In article ,
Neil  Williams   wrote:
>Traditionally the view with the SVR outward/SVS has been that ending
>short is permitted, but BoJ is not.  As such, the ticket becomes
>invalid as soon as you leave railway premises and cannot be
>"restarted", but by merely ending short you do not invalidate the
>ticket for the journey completed before doing so.

Perhaps this has been because of the practical difficulties of
preventing passengers from absconding from their journeys without
proper leave :-).

-- 
Ian Jackson                  personal email: 
These opinions are my own.        http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/
PGP2 key 1024R/0x23f5addb,     fingerprint 5906F687 BD03ACAD 0D8E602E FCF37657

In message 
, at 
14:50:04 on Thu, 24 Jul 2008, Neil Williams  
remarked:
>> The outbound half of an ordinary walk-up saver return doesn't specify
>> particular trains but does not allow a break of journey (and thus
>> presumably doesn't allow cutting short).
>
>Traditionally the view with the SVR outward/SVS has been that ending
>short is permitted, but BoJ is not.  As such, the ticket becomes
>invalid as soon as you leave railway premises and cannot be
>"restarted", but by merely ending short you do not invalidate the
>ticket for the journey completed before doing so.
>
>Starting late has been more up for debate.

I agree with all of this, but add that it's possible that some train 
companies view the absence of someone joining the train at the starting 
point as also invalidating the ticket (even if you join later on the 
same train's journey).

Hopefully this will all be clarified when new T&C are introduced in the 
Autumn to accompany the new "complificated" walk-up fares structure. 
Some people may not enjoy the effects of greater clarity! I have no 
inside information, merely looking at the way the 'Advance' T&C have 
already changed.
-- 
Roland Perry

In message <a1g*rVIis@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 17:40:14 on Thu, 
24 Jul 2008, Ian Jackson  remarked:
>>Traditionally the view with the SVR outward/SVS has been that ending
>>short is permitted, but BoJ is not.  As such, the ticket becomes
>>invalid as soon as you leave railway premises and cannot be
>>"restarted", but by merely ending short you do not invalidate the
>>ticket for the journey completed before doing so.
>
>Perhaps this has been because of the practical difficulties of
>preventing passengers from absconding from their journeys without
>proper leave :-)

But the new "Advance" ticket rules prohibit it, so they must think that 
enforcement is a possibility.
-- 
Roland Perry

On 24 Jul, 17:40, Ian Jackson  wrote:

> Perhaps this has been because of the practical difficulties of
> preventing passengers from absconding from their journeys without
> proper leave :-).

This practicality aspect means that Break of Journey restrictions are
practically never enforced, IMX.

Neil

In message 
, at 
09:55:09 on Fri, 25 Jul 2008, Neil Williams  
remarked:
>> Perhaps this has been because of the practical difficulties of
>> preventing passengers from absconding from their journeys without
>> proper leave :-).
>
>This practicality aspect means that Break of Journey restrictions are
>practically never enforced, IMX.

If you need to go through a barrier to restart your journey it's likely 
that a ticket would be rejected (happened to me) and you have to explain 
what's going on to a sceptical gripper.
-- 
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:

> Hopefully this will all be clarified when new T&C are introduced in the 
> Autumn to accompany the new "complificated" walk-up fares structure. 
> Some people may not enjoy the effects of greater clarity! I have no 
> inside information, merely looking at the way the 'Advance' T&C have 
> already changed.

I suspect, however, that all that will change will be the name on the 
ticket. The restrictions will likely still vary according to the journey.

"The Manual" (replacing the current Retail and Fares Manuals) is due to 
launch on 12th August, but will only be available online through the 
Fares and Retail Publications Portal, not in printed form.

Cheers,

Barry

On Jul 23, 8:10 pm, "tim....."  wrote:
> there are tickets that allow you to make a connection at a branch onto "any
> train", but the availability of such tickets is dependent on the
> availability on the main part of the route.  As such, this will always cost
> more than a ticket for just the main part would have cost

Such tickets don't always cost more.

For example, Advance tickets from St Pancras to Sheffield are
available at the same price to Leeds via Sheffield.

In this instance, the local Sheffield - Leeds journey is the "branch"
and after arrival at Sheffield you can travel to Leeds on any
unreservable train that day - there are usually 3 an hour on weekdays.
That part of the journey is, effectively, free.

It's a separate debate whether you're allowed to choose one of the
reservable Leeds - Sheffield trains to complete your journey.

John

On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:45:07 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

> In message
> , at
> 09:55:09 on Fri, 25 Jul 2008, Neil Williams 
> remarked:
>>> Perhaps this has been because of the practical difficulties of
>>> preventing passengers from absconding from their journeys without
>>> proper leave :-).
>>
>>This practicality aspect means that Break of Journey restrictions are
>>practically never enforced, IMX.
> 
> If you need to go through a barrier to restart your journey it's likely
> that a ticket would be rejected (happened to me) and you have to explain
> what's going on to a sceptical gripper.

I was hearing on the radio recently that for some trips it was actually 
significantly cheaper to buy two tickets and have an artificial journey 
break anyway...

In message <9Woik.32791$E41.2776@text.news.virginmedia.com>, at 19:30:07 
on Fri, 25 Jul 2008, PCPaul  remarked:
>> If you need to go through a barrier to restart your journey it's likely
>> that a ticket would be rejected (happened to me) and you have to explain
>> what's going on to a sceptical gripper.
>
>I was hearing on the radio recently that for some trips it was actually
>significantly cheaper to buy two tickets and have an artificial journey
>break anyway...

Yes, it can be a lot cheaper. But with the restriction that the train 
has to stop at the intermediate station.

One wrinkle that isn't discussed as much as simple fare-splitting, is 
using a combination of peak and off-peak tickets if the journey time 
crosses one of the watersheds. I was looking up a trip to Manchester 
recently, and by splitting the ticket halfway it would be possible to do 
the second half of the trip on an off-peak fare, although starting off 
during the morning peak period (for the first half) is unavoidable in 
this case.
-- 
Roland Perry

On 25 Jul, 19:30, PCPaul  wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:45:07 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
> > In message
> > , at
> > 09:55:09 on Fri, 25 Jul 2008, Neil Williams 
> > remarked:
> >>> Perhaps this has been because of the practical difficulties of
> >>> preventing passengers from absconding from their journeys without
> >>> proper leave :-).
>
> >>This practicality aspect means that Break of Journey restrictions are
> >>practically never enforced, IMX.
>
> > If you need to go through a barrier to restart your journey it's likely
> > that a ticket would be rejected (happened to me) and you have to explain
> > what's going on to a sceptical gripper.
>
> I was hearing on the radio recently that for some trips it was actually
> significantly cheaper to buy two tickets and have an artificial journey
> break anyway...

Once wanted to travel from Derby to Oxford and found it was cheaper to
buy tickets from Derby to Birmingham, Birmingham to Coventry, Coventry
to Banbury and Banbury to Oxford. This was because they were all
'local' trips.

OTOH, once wanted to go from Newcastle to Leeds and found it much
cheaper (about 1/3rd cost) to get a ticket Newcastle to Derby for the
same train. Didn't actually get it though as I couldn't remember
whether Leeds was an 'open' station or not and there was no 'break in
journey' so didn't want to explain at the Leeds barrier why I was
leaving!

BobC

On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 19:30:07 +0100, PCPaul  wrote:

>I was hearing on the radio recently that for some trips it was actually 
>significantly cheaper to buy two tickets and have an artificial journey 
>break anyway...

It certainly used to be the case that there was no day return ticket
available between Leicester and Stoke-on-Trent, but one could buy a
day return in between Leicester and Derby, and then Derby and
Stoke-on-Trent for considerable savings. One was, of course,
restricted to just one of the routes that could have been otherwise
used (i.e., not able to go so that changes at Birmingham or at
Nuneaton were required.)

I recall the same thing, though slightly more hazy on details, for a
day trip between Stoke-on-Trent and Hull via Mancester (with a break
at Manchester).

On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:45:07 +0100, Roland Perry 
wrote:

>In message 
>, at 
>09:55:09 on Fri, 25 Jul 2008, Neil Williams  
>remarked:

>>This practicality aspect means that Break of Journey restrictions are
>>practically never enforced, IMX.

>If you need to go through a barrier to restart your journey it's likely 
>that a ticket would be rejected (happened to me) and you have to explain 
>what's going on to a sceptical gripper.

If it's a station where you might be changing trains you are unlikely
to have a problem, you could have quite legitimately have left the
platform to buy a paper etc.  while you were waiting.

In message , 
mcp@nildram.co.uk writes
>On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:45:07 +0100, Roland Perry 
>wrote:
>
>>In message
>>, at
>>09:55:09 on Fri, 25 Jul 2008, Neil Williams 
>>remarked:
>
>>>This practicality aspect means that Break of Journey restrictions are
>>>practically never enforced, IMX.
>
>>If you need to go through a barrier to restart your journey it's likely
>>that a ticket would be rejected (happened to me) and you have to explain
>>what's going on to a sceptical gripper.
>
>If it's a station where you might be changing trains you are unlikely
>to have a problem, you could have quite legitimately have left the
>platform to buy a paper etc.  while you were waiting.
>
Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the railways have one 
department set up to devise good deals for travellers, and another set 
up to find ways of preventing travellers from taking advantage of the 
good deals. If so, why?
-- 
Ian

In message , at 00:05:05 on 
Sat, 26 Jul 2008, mcp@nildram.co.uk remarked:
>>If you need to go through a barrier to restart your journey it's likely
>>that a ticket would be rejected (happened to me) and you have to explain
>>what's going on to a sceptical gripper.
>
>If it's a station where you might be changing trains you are unlikely
>to have a problem, you could have quite legitimately have left the
>platform to buy a paper etc.  while you were waiting.

Which is what the conversation with the "sceptical gripper" is all 
about. He may not have seen you get off a train earlier, and the paper 
shop might be inside the barriers [1]. It all depends on the 
circumstances.

My ticket *was* valid for break of journey [2], but I'm pretty sure that 
someone with a ticket not valid for break of journey would have been 
refused.

[1] Which it was, at the station I was talking about. Outside the 
barriers it's a wasteland with nothing useful that you might be 
visiting.

[2] And I was starting long, which is probably allowed.
-- 
Roland Perry

In message <+Kg7h0Bf8uiIFwsk@g3ohx.demon.co.uk>, at 10:35:06 on Sat, 26 
Jul 2008, Ian Jackson  remarked:
>Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the railways have one 
>department set up to devise good deals for travellers, and another set 
>up to find ways of preventing travellers from taking advantage of the 
>good deals. If so, why?

Because they want to extract "what the market will stand" from their 
regular travellers, while filling up seats off-peak with cheap tickets 
that have a range of restrictions. Those restrictions are designed to 
stop the regular travellers from using them as a loophole, and therefore 
abstracting revenue from the company.

You have to make your mind up what sort of benefits you want, and pick 
the ticket with the right balance between price and restriction.
-- 
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry"  wrote in message 
news:1nHMsC$f8ZiIFAu1@perry.co.uk...
> In message 
> , at 
> 09:55:09 on Fri, 25 Jul 2008, Neil Williams  remarked:
>>> Perhaps this has been because of the practical difficulties of
>>> preventing passengers from absconding from their journeys without
>>> proper leave :-).
>>
>>This practicality aspect means that Break of Journey restrictions are
>>practically never enforced, IMX.
>
> If you need to go through a barrier to restart your journey it's likely 
> that a ticket would be rejected (happened to me) and you have to explain 
> what's going on to a sceptical gripper.
They're normally OK with it, though.  I've been waved through the barriers 
at Reading on several occasions when I've beein using an outbound SVR, ater 
having left the platform to buy something from the M&S shop.  They didn't 
even ask any questions.