Greetings all,

I have a question about how social clubs are regulated.

I am a member of a social club that meets up once or twice a month for
drinks and then several times a year organises an outing or day trip.
I have concerns about how it is run and the legal implication thereof.

I think it best  to demonstrate my concerns in list form.

- Membership fees are £25 p.a.
- There are now over 500 members.
- We get nothing for our £25, bar an occasional email newsletter.
- All events and meetings are paid for by members as they attend, no
part of the membership fee goes towards paying for these events.
- There is a committee, yet there are no elections or AGMs held - i.e.
we've had the same committee since day 1 and they have stated this
will not change.
- There is no club bank account and receipts for membership fees are
never issued.
- For the occasional special events that are held, the committee has
manged to procure free products for use in raffles. One night the
prizes were worth in excess of £3000.
- These raffles are rigged. This is common knowledge and many members
have serious concerns.
- No membership cards are issued, in fact there is no way to prove you
are a member.
- There is no club constitution or rule book.
- No accounts are published, actually, there just are no accounts.

Now in the early days I couldn't care less about the structure of the
club. But now as the membership has increased, as has the amount of
money changing hands, I am feeling very uncomfortable about how the
club is run. It is my feeling that the club should be adhering to the
same legislation that governs working mens clubs or private members
club. The committee on the other hand disagrees and feel that things
should stay as they are, despite the dubious legality of what they do.
Anyone who raises this issue is offered the 'take it or leave it'
choice.

Can anyone advise me on what legislation does actually apply here? e
may be a silly social club at heart, but given the amount of money
involved I feel that there should be a more formal structure to the
club's management.

TIA,
C

I have a question about how social clubs are regulated.

I am a member of a social club that meets up once or twice a month for
drinks and then several times a year organises an outing or day trip.
I have concerns about how it is run and the legal implication thereof.

I think it best  to demonstrate my concerns in list form.

- Membership fees are £25 p.a.
- There are now over 500 members.
- We get nothing for our £25, bar an occasional email newsletter.
- All events and meetings are paid for by members as they attend, no
part of the membership fee goes towards paying for these events.
- There is a committee, yet there are no elections or AGMs held - i.e.
we've had the same committee since day 1 and they have stated this
will not change.
- There is no club bank account and receipts for membership fees are
never issued.
- For the occasional special events that are held, the committee has
manged to procure free products for use in raffles. One night the
prizes were worth in excess of £3000.
- These raffles are rigged. This is common knowledge and many members
have serious concerns.
- No membership cards are issued, in fact there is no way to prove you
are a member.
- There is no club constitution or rule book.
- No accounts are published, actually, there just are no accounts.

Now in the early days I couldn't care less about the structure of the
club. But now as the membership has increased, as has the amount of
money changing hands, I am feeling very uncomfortable about how the
club is run. It is my feeling that the club should be adhering to the
same legislation that governs working mens clubs or private members
club. The committee on the other hand disagrees and feel that things
should stay as they are, despite the dubious legality of what they do.
Anyone who raises this issue is offered the 'take it or leave it'
choice.

Can anyone advise me on what legislation does actually apply here? e
may be a silly social club at heart, but given the amount of money
involved I feel that there should be a more formal structure to the
club's management.


The whole thing sounds like a nice scam started by a few people who continue 
to con people. The only way you are going to do anything is for people to 
refuse to pay. Any club has to have rules and a proper structure. The raffle 
might be the thing that would sink them. Running anutorised raffles is a 
criminal offence.

Peter Crosland

cyrilsstuff@gmail.com wrote:
> Greetings all,
> 
> I have a question about how social clubs are regulated.
> 
> I am a member of a social club that meets up once or twice a month for
> drinks and then several times a year organises an outing or day trip.
> I have concerns about how it is run and the legal implication thereof.
> 
> I think it best  to demonstrate my concerns in list form.
> 
> - Membership fees are £25 p.a.
> - There are now over 500 members.
> - We get nothing for our £25, bar an occasional email newsletter.
> - All events and meetings are paid for by members as they attend, no
> part of the membership fee goes towards paying for these events.
> - There is a committee, yet there are no elections or AGMs held - i.e.
> we've had the same committee since day 1 and they have stated this
> will not change.
> - There is no club bank account and receipts for membership fees are
> never issued.
> - For the occasional special events that are held, the committee has
> manged to procure free products for use in raffles. One night the
> prizes were worth in excess of £3000.
> - These raffles are rigged. This is common knowledge and many members
> have serious concerns.
> - No membership cards are issued, in fact there is no way to prove you
> are a member.
> - There is no club constitution or rule book.
> - No accounts are published, actually, there just are no accounts.
> 
> Now in the early days I couldn't care less about the structure of the
> club. But now as the membership has increased, as has the amount of
> money changing hands, I am feeling very uncomfortable about how the
> club is run. It is my feeling that the club should be adhering to the
> same legislation that governs working mens clubs or private members
> club. The committee on the other hand disagrees and feel that things
> should stay as they are, despite the dubious legality of what they do.
> Anyone who raises this issue is offered the 'take it or leave it'
> choice.
> 
> Can anyone advise me on what legislation does actually apply here? e
> may be a silly social club at heart, but given the amount of money
> involved I feel that there should be a more formal structure to the
> club's management.
> 
> TIA,
> C
> 
> 
Hopefully someone will know more than me here.
I believe there are 2 types of clubs.
Member - run by the members for the members
Another sort - run by a proprietor(s) - often for profit

I suspect if raffles are rigged that will fall foul of some gaming 
legislation?

In message 
, at 
16:20:14 on Mon, 21 Jul 2008, cyrilsstuff@gmail.com remarked:
>- There is a committee, yet there are no elections or AGMs held - i.e.
>we've had the same committee since day 1 and they have stated this
>will not change.

Does the Committee have a treasurer? I wonder if he's declaring this 
£12,000 income on his tax return - if the club isn't incorporated in any 
way how can its activities be separated from his own?

Reading between the lines it seems probable that he thinks that buying 
the 'raffle' prizes is an allowable expense (and could even add up to 
about the right amount) to set against that income.
-- 
Roland Perry

cyrilsstuff@gmail.com gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

> I have a question about how social clubs are regulated.
> 
> I am a member of a social club that meets up once or twice a month for
> drinks and then several times a year organises an outing or day trip. I
> have concerns about how it is run and the legal implication thereof.
> 
> I think it best  to demonstrate my concerns in list form.
> 
> - Membership fees are £25 p.a.
> - There are now over 500 members.
> - We get nothing for our £25, bar an occasional email newsletter.

> - For the occasional special events that are held, the committee has
> manged to procure free products for use in raffles. One night the
> prizes were worth in excess of £3000.

Congratulations to them...

> - These raffles are rigged. This is common knowledge and many members
> have serious concerns.

Hmm. That is naughty... 

The regulations surrounding the running of a lottery are at 
http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/UploadDocs/publications/Document/
Lotteries%20and%20the%20law%202007.pdf

It sounds as if this comes under the usual "school fete" exemption of 
"Incidental non-commercial lotteries" - p9 of that PDF - so no need to 
register it with the local authority. BUT it can't be rigged.

> It is my feeling that the club should be adhering to the same 
> legislation that governs working mens clubs or private members club.

> Can anyone advise me on what legislation does actually apply here? e may
> be a silly social club at heart, but given the amount of money involved
> I feel that there should be a more formal structure to the club's
> management.

Very little, to the best of my knowledge. I'm very familiar with the 
running of one-make car owner's clubs, many of which are now companies 
limited by guarantee for liability reasons - and, obviously, the 
companies act applies. Otherwise, you're just paying somebody to do 
something for you - and there's no legislation that I'm aware of to say 
that has to be particularly good value or well organised...

> Anyone who raises this issue is offered the 'take it or leave it' 
> choice.

Sounds like good advice to me...

Peter Crosland wrote:
> I have a question about how social clubs are regulated.
>
> I am a member of a social club that meets up once or twice a month for
> drinks and then several times a year organises an outing or day trip.
> I have concerns about how it is run and the legal implication thereof.
>
> I think it best  to demonstrate my concerns in list form.
>
> - Membership fees are £25 p.a.
> - There are now over 500 members.
> - We get nothing for our £25, bar an occasional email newsletter.

> Can anyone advise me on what legislation does actually apply here? e
> may be a silly social club at heart, but given the amount of money
> involved I feel that there should be a more formal structure to the
> club's management.
>
>
> The whole thing sounds like a nice scam started by a few people who
> continue to con people. The only way you are going to do anything is
> for people to refuse to pay.

There are 500 people all willing to pay £25 a year.  Don't tell me they've 
all been conned.

> Any club has to have rules and a proper
> structure.

I don't think there's any legislation to that effect.  There's also the 
slight problem of defining what a 'club' might be.

> The raffle might be the thing that would sink them.
> Running anutorised raffles is a criminal offence.

Really?  Inform the Police immediately.  There's a bunch of criminals round 
my way doing that every single week.

They're called the WI.

"Norman Wells"  gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

> There are 500 people all willing to pay £25 a year.  Don't tell me
> they've all been conned.

Wouldn't be the first time, wouldn't be the last. But what's a "con"? A 
service - membership of a club - is being provided, so there's no failure 
to deliver there. It's more a question of it being good value or not. 
Sounds like some think it is, others (like the OP) are much less 
convinced.

>> The raffle might be the thing that would sink them. Running anutorised
>> raffles is a criminal offence.

> Really?  Inform the Police immediately.  There's a bunch of criminals
> round my way doing that every single week.
> 
> They're called the WI.

There's explicit exclusions from having to register - see the link in my 
previous reply.

This one may well fit the exclusion - IF it's not rigged, and if they 
haven't bought all those "prizes" with the ticket money.

In message <g643t9$8dl$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk>, at 09:00:13 on Tue, 
22 Jul 2008, Norman Wells  remarked:
>There are 500 people all willing to pay £25 a year.  Don't tell me 
>they've all been conned.
>
>> Any club has to have rules and a proper
>> structure.
>
>I don't think there's any legislation to that effect.  There's also the 
>slight problem of defining what a 'club' might be.

It would be interesting to see on what basis they refused the OP 
"membership" of his club if he didn't pay.
-- 
Roland Perry

>
> Does the Committee have a treasurer? I wonder if he's declaring this
> £12,000 income on his tax return - if the club isn't incorporated in
> any way how can its activities be separated from his own?
>
In practice all that is needed is some sort of rules or constitution, 
and they may be oral.

The UK tax system has long recognised "unincorporated associations". 
They are (currently) within the scope of corporation tax.  See eg 
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ctmanual/CTM41305.htm.  That also 
usefully summarises the badges of unincorporated associations.  From 
what the OP has said the "club" in question might be on the margins if 
there are no rules.  It might then be considered to be a trade carried 
on by (perhaps) the "committee" in partnership.  But that in turn raises 
questions about what if any profit they make; and who does what.  As 
usual, more facts required.



-- 
Robin

In article <g630jb$8jb$1@registered.motzarella.org>, Invisible Man 
<Invisible@invalid.invalid> writes
>cyrilsstuff@gmail.com wrote:
>> Greetings all,
>>  I have a question about how social clubs are regulated.
>>  I am a member of a social club that meets up once or twice a month 
>>for
>> drinks and then several times a year organises an outing or day trip.
>> I have concerns about how it is run and the legal implication thereof.
>>  I think it best  to demonstrate my concerns in list form.
>>  - Membership fees are £25 p.a.
>> - There are now over 500 members.
>> - We get nothing for our £25, bar an occasional email newsletter.
>> - All events and meetings are paid for by members as they attend, no
>> part of the membership fee goes towards paying for these events.
>> - There is a committee, yet there are no elections or AGMs held - i.e.
>> we've had the same committee since day 1 and they have stated this
>> will not change.
>> - There is no club bank account and receipts for membership fees are
>> never issued.
>> - For the occasional special events that are held, the committee has
>> manged to procure free products for use in raffles. One night the
>> prizes were worth in excess of £3000.
>> - These raffles are rigged. This is common knowledge and many members
>> have serious concerns.
>> - No membership cards are issued, in fact there is no way to prove you
>> are a member.
>> - There is no club constitution or rule book.
>> - No accounts are published, actually, there just are no accounts.
>>  Now in the early days I couldn't care less about the structure of 
>>the
>> club. But now as the membership has increased, as has the amount of
>> money changing hands, I am feeling very uncomfortable about how the
>> club is run. It is my feeling that the club should be adhering to the
>> same legislation that governs working mens clubs or private members
>> club. The committee on the other hand disagrees and feel that things
>> should stay as they are, despite the dubious legality of what they do.
>> Anyone who raises this issue is offered the 'take it or leave it'
>> choice.
>>  Can anyone advise me on what legislation does actually apply here? e
>> may be a silly social club at heart, but given the amount of money
>> involved I feel that there should be a more formal structure to the
>> club's management.
>>  TIA,
>> C
>>
>Hopefully someone will know more than me here.
>I believe there are 2 types of clubs.
>Member - run by the members for the members
>Another sort - run by a proprietor(s) - often for profit

Indeed, the OP seems to be assuming that it is a members club when it 
actually looks like a proprietors club - owned by an unlimited company 
(the committee).

I believe that a working mans club is normally a registered friendly 
society, existing for social intercourse and mental improvement.



-- 
Ken