Posted for a friend who cannot post to uk.legal.moderated for some 
reason....

I wondered if anyone could advise me over a noise nuisance problem
before it gets to the stage of becoming a legal matter.

I live in a small close of four detached houses arranged in a semi 
circle and for 24 years it has been a relatively quiet and friendly 
community. One of the houses has been rented out for the last two years 
or so and the last tenants, Eastern European workers, were a little 
boisterous at times but generally good.

A family moved into the house a couple of months ago and the teenage
son plays the drums for a hobby. As he uses a full drum kit which is
situated in the garage which faces our house, the noise at times is
extremely loud. I am in discussion with the boy's father but he seems to
want to impose time slots where his son will able to play which include
Saturdays and Sundays which I consider to be days of relaxation.

I do not want to be heavy handed and stop the son enjoying his hobby but 
I wanted to know what the legal definition of "noise" and "nuisance" is 
and what rights I have, to understand my bargaining position.

Regards
Phil

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:30:09 +0100, Bob Hardwell
 wrote:

>Posted for a friend who cannot post to uk.legal.moderated for some 
>reason....
>
>I wondered if anyone could advise me over a noise nuisance problem
>before it gets to the stage of becoming a legal matter.
>
>I live in a small close of four detached houses arranged in a semi 
>circle and for 24 years it has been a relatively quiet and friendly 
>community. One of the houses has been rented out for the last two years 
>or so and the last tenants, Eastern European workers, were a little 
>boisterous at times but generally good.
>
>A family moved into the house a couple of months ago and the teenage
>son plays the drums for a hobby. As he uses a full drum kit which is
>situated in the garage which faces our house, the noise at times is
>extremely loud. I am in discussion with the boy's father but he seems to
>want to impose time slots where his son will able to play which include
>Saturdays and Sundays which I consider to be days of relaxation.
>
>I do not want to be heavy handed and stop the son enjoying his hobby but 
>I wanted to know what the legal definition of "noise" and "nuisance" is 
>and what rights I have, to understand my bargaining position.
>
I used to share a flat with a drummer. He practiced quite a lot, but
he used a "practice kit" made for the purpose, which was surprisingly
quiet - like this
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Drum-Set-Practice-Kit-Silent/dp/B000LRR3CA

Maybe the neighbours could club together and buy him one?

In any case, I would say that the use of a full drum kit in a
residential street and in earshot of the neighbours is totally
unacceptable and illegal at any time. Your local council are the
people to go to, although some are more effective at dealing with
noise complaints than others. If that doesn't work, you can make an
application direct to the magistrates court.

-- 
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"

"Bob Hardwell"  wrote in message 
news:jv6dnYw_IJu4-OLVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bt.com...
> Posted for a friend who cannot post to uk.legal.moderated for some 
> reason....
>
> I wondered if anyone could advise me over a noise nuisance problem
> before it gets to the stage of becoming a legal matter.
>
> I live in a small close of four detached houses arranged in a semi circle 
> and for 24 years it has been a relatively quiet and friendly community. 
> One of the houses has been rented out for the last two years or so and the 
> last tenants, Eastern European workers, were a little boisterous at times 
> but generally good.
>
> A family moved into the house a couple of months ago and the teenage
> son plays the drums for a hobby. As he uses a full drum kit which is
> situated in the garage which faces our house, the noise at times is
> extremely loud. I am in discussion with the boy's father but he seems to
> want to impose time slots where his son will able to play which include
> Saturdays and Sundays which I consider to be days of relaxation.
>
> I do not want to be heavy handed and stop the son enjoying his hobby but I 
> wanted to know what the legal definition of "noise" and "nuisance" is and 
> what rights I have, to understand my bargaining position.
>
I'd negotiate with the father.  As you've said, the lad needs to practice. 
When else can he play?  During the day he'll be at school and if he played 
in the evenings you'd complain he was being noisy.  Sat and Sun, not too 
early or late sound ok.

Bob Hardwell wrote:
> Posted for a friend who cannot post to uk.legal.moderated for some
> reason....
> 
> I wondered if anyone could advise me over a noise nuisance problem
> before it gets to the stage of becoming a legal matter.
> 
> I live in a small close of four detached houses arranged in a semi
> circle and for 24 years it has been a relatively quiet and friendly
> community. One of the houses has been rented out for the last two
> years or so and the last tenants, Eastern European workers, were a
> little boisterous at times but generally good.
> 
> A family moved into the house a couple of months ago and the teenage
> son plays the drums for a hobby. As he uses a full drum kit which is
> situated in the garage which faces our house, the noise at times is
> extremely loud. I am in discussion with the boy's father but he seems
> to want to impose time slots where his son will able to play which
> include Saturdays and Sundays which I consider to be days of
> relaxation. 
> 
> I do not want to be heavy handed and stop the son enjoying his hobby
> but I wanted to know what the legal definition of "noise" and
> "nuisance" is and what rights I have, to understand my bargaining
> position. 

Google for the Environmental Protection Act 1990 and look at Section 79.

Bob Hardwell wrote:
> Posted for a friend who cannot post to uk.legal.moderated for some 
> reason....
> 
> I wondered if anyone could advise me over a noise nuisance problem
> before it gets to the stage of becoming a legal matter.
> 
> 
Suggest to Daddy that he hangs some blankets inside the 
garage over the doors and windows.
This will cut out a surprising amount of noise.
No legal bods involved.

-- 
Jeweller
R100RT
Formerly: James Captain, A10, C15, B25, Dnepr M16 solo, 
R80/7, R100RT (green!)
www.davidhowardjeweller.co.uk

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 18:25:17 +0100, Jeweller wrote:

> Bob Hardwell wrote:
>> Posted for a friend who cannot post to uk.legal.moderated for some
>> reason....
>> 
>> I wondered if anyone could advise me over a noise nuisance problem
>> before it gets to the stage of becoming a legal matter.
>> 
>> 
> Suggest to Daddy that he hangs some blankets inside the garage over the
> doors and windows.
> This will cut out a surprising amount of noise. No legal bods involved.

I used overlapping 'curtains' of some old fabric backed rubber carpet 
underlay to deaden the noise from woodwork tools in a garage - very 
effective. Not sure whether the modern stuff would have the structural 
integrity to hold it's own weight though...

"mert1639"  wrote in message 
news:g5npm3$3tq$1@frank-exchange-of-views.oucs.ox.ac.uk...

> I'd negotiate with the father.  As you've said, the lad needs to practice.
> When else can he play?  During the day he'll be at school and if he played
> in the evenings you'd complain he was being noisy.  Sat and Sun, not too
> early or late sound ok.

The when isn't really the question. Where is the pertinent question.

Yes, the lad wishes to practice his hobby, but if his hobby is likely to 
cause a nuisance, he may need to find a more suitable place to practice.

It is perfectly possible for him to hire the use of a suitable practice 
room, where he will cause no problems.

Dave Mayall wrote:

> "mert1639"  wrote in message 
> news:g5npm3$3tq$1@frank-exchange-of-views.oucs.ox.ac.uk...
> 
> > I'd negotiate with the father.  As you've said, the lad needs to
> > practice.  When else can he play?  During the day he'll be at
> > school and if he played in the evenings you'd complain he was being
> > noisy.  Sat and Sun, not too early or late sound ok.
> 
> The when isn't really the question. Where is the pertinent question.
> 
> Yes, the lad wishes to practice his hobby, but if his hobby is likely
> to cause a nuisance, he may need to find a more suitable place to
> practice.
> 
> It is perfectly possible for him to hire the use of a suitable
> practice room, where he will cause no problems.

It would be reasonably cheap to insulate the garage walls 

--

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:10:07 +0100, steve robinson wrote:

> Dave Mayall wrote:
> 
>> "mert1639"  wrote in message
>> news:g5npm3$3tq$1@frank-exchange-of-views.oucs.ox.ac.uk...
>> 
>> > I'd negotiate with the father.  As you've said, the lad needs to
>> > practice.  When else can he play?  During the day he'll be at school
>> > and if he played in the evenings you'd complain he was being noisy. 
>> > Sat and Sun, not too early or late sound ok.
>> 
>> The when isn't really the question. Where is the pertinent question.
>> 
>> Yes, the lad wishes to practice his hobby, but if his hobby is likely
>> to cause a nuisance, he may need to find a more suitable place to
>> practice.
>> 
>> It is perfectly possible for him to hire the use of a suitable practice
>> room, where he will cause no problems.
> 
> It would be reasonably cheap to insulate the garage walls

This looks like a useful article:
<http://www.drum-sets-for-sale.com/articles/soundproof-garage.html>

If the OP is reasonably well off and particularly bothered, and the 
drummer's family are co-operative, then the OP could even offer to help 
with the costs or the work?

Not everything has to be treated adversarially...

On 17 Jul, 16:30, Bob Hardwell  wrote:
> Posted for a friend who cannot post to uk.legal.moderated for some
> reason....
>
> I wondered if anyone could advise me over a noise nuisance problem
> before it gets to the stage of becoming a legal matter.
>
> I live in a small close of four detached houses arranged in a semi
> circle and for 24 years it has been a relatively quiet and friendly
> community. One of the houses has been rented out for the last two years
> or so and the last tenants, Eastern European workers, were a little
> boisterous at times but generally good.
>
> A family moved into the house a couple of months ago and the teenage
> son plays the drums for a hobby. As he uses a full drum kit which is
> situated in the garage which faces our house, the noise at times is
> extremely loud. I am in discussion with the boy's father but he seems to
> want to impose time slots where his son will able to play which include
> Saturdays and Sundays which I consider to be days of relaxation.
>
> I do not want to be heavy handed and stop the son enjoying his hobby but
> I wanted to know what the legal definition of "noise" and "nuisance" is
> and what rights I have, to understand my bargaining position.
>
> Regards
> Phil

On the face of it, it seems that the father is doing his best here.
You say you don't want to stop the lad enjoying his hobby - when do
*you* feel would be a reasonable time for him to practice? You say
you're in discussion with the father, the imposition of time slots
suggests that the father is doing his best to be reasonable about the
situation, so I'd say the ball is in your court - what times would you
suggest? Bear in mind that you aren't going to be the only person
affected here - just because weekday evenings may be OK for you
doesn't mean the same applies to your other neighbours.

As others have said, the vast majority of the noise will be coming
from the thin metal door, plus possibly the roof, depending on the
build of the garage. When my ex played drums, we lined the spare room
(of a terraced house) with egg trays from a farm shop. It was
extremely effective, and cost next to nothing to achieve. This may be
something to suggest, and could even be an opportunity to welcome your
new neighbours and get off on the right foot from the start.

Legally speaking, I believe most councils don't consider it to be a
nuisance (or at least, not a priority) if the noise occurs between 8am
and 11pm - IANAL and ICBW. If that's your council's take on the
situation, you're going to have a struggle to get anything done, plus
a neighbour dispute to declare should you ever come to sell.

Yes, offering to help the neighbour soundproof the garage could be
seen as both a pain in the arse and "not your job", but this really
sounds like a situation where keeping things friendly is really going
to be the best way - firstly, it resolves the situation easily and
without any issues. Secondly, and possibly more importantly, it means
the family are going to be much more receptive when you have special
requirements - for example, if you're trying to sell and would prefer
him not to be playing at all, they're far more likely to keep him
quiet if you're on good terms than if you've forced them into a "play
at these times and no others" situation.

In message <g5nq1q$chg$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, Norman Wells 
 writes
>Bob Hardwell wrote:
>> Posted for a friend who cannot post to uk.legal.moderated for some
>> reason....
>>  I wondered if anyone could advise me over a noise nuisance problem
>> before it gets to the stage of becoming a legal matter.
>>  I live in a small close of four detached houses arranged in a semi
>> circle and for 24 years it has been a relatively quiet and friendly
>> community. One of the houses has been rented out for the last two
>> years or so and the last tenants, Eastern European workers, were a
>> little boisterous at times but generally good.
>>  A family moved into the house a couple of months ago and the teenage
>> son plays the drums for a hobby. As he uses a full drum kit which is
>> situated in the garage which faces our house, the noise at times is
>> extremely loud. I am in discussion with the boy's father but he seems
>> to want to impose time slots where his son will able to play which
>> include Saturdays and Sundays which I consider to be days of
>> relaxation.   I do not want to be heavy handed and stop the son 
>>enjoying his hobby
>> but I wanted to know what the legal definition of "noise" and
>> "nuisance" is and what rights I have, to understand my bargaining
>> position.
>
>Google for the Environmental Protection Act 1990 and look at Section 79.
>
>
An update: The local Environmental Health Department have told my friend 
that they can do nothing about the problem because, as suggested by 
another poster, the noise is happening during the day. Their advice is 
to reach a compromise which he intends to do.

Thanks to all of you for the very useful suggestions which my friend 
will be putting to the boy's father and hopefully, they will find a 
mutually agreeable solution.
-- 
Bob

Bob Hardwell wrote:
> In message <g5nq1q$chg$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, Norman Wells
>  writes
>> Bob Hardwell wrote:
>>> Posted for a friend who cannot post to uk.legal.moderated for some
>>> reason....
>>>  I wondered if anyone could advise me over a noise nuisance problem
>>> before it gets to the stage of becoming a legal matter.
>>>  I live in a small close of four detached houses arranged in a semi
>>> circle and for 24 years it has been a relatively quiet and friendly
>>> community. One of the houses has been rented out for the last two
>>> years or so and the last tenants, Eastern European workers, were a
>>> little boisterous at times but generally good.
>>>  A family moved into the house a couple of months ago and the
>>> teenage son plays the drums for a hobby. As he uses a full drum kit
>>> which is situated in the garage which faces our house, the noise at
>>> times is extremely loud. I am in discussion with the boy's father
>>> but he seems to want to impose time slots where his son will able
>>> to play which include Saturdays and Sundays which I consider to be
>>> days of relaxation.   I do not want to be heavy handed and stop the
>>> son enjoying his hobby
>>> but I wanted to know what the legal definition of "noise" and
>>> "nuisance" is and what rights I have, to understand my bargaining
>>> position.
>>
>> Google for the Environmental Protection Act 1990 and look at Section
>> 79.
> An update: The local Environmental Health Department have told my
> friend that they can do nothing about the problem because, as
> suggested by another poster, the noise is happening during the day.

The law does not actually distinguish between night and day as regards noise 
that is a nuisance, and excessive noise at any time is actionable, so I 
think the Council could be pressed further on that if that is what he wants. 
However, it is obviously reasonable that more allowance be given in  daytime 
for normal activities.  Whether that applies to drum practice is a matter of 
how much noise is being produced and how disturbing that noise is.

> Their advice is to reach a compromise which he intends to do.

Always good advice in any neighbour dispute.  It also very conveniently gets 
the Council off the hook of having to deal with something they have a 
statutory duty to deal with but which is in fact a bit delicate.  If 
compromise doesn't work, your friend should push the Council into dealing 
with it properly rather than sweeping it under the carpet.

On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:25:16 +0100, "Norman Wells"
 wrote:

>Bob Hardwell wrote:
>> In message <g5nq1q$chg$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, Norman Wells
>>  writes
>>> Bob Hardwell wrote:
>>>> Posted for a friend who cannot post to uk.legal.moderated for some
>>>> reason....
>>>>  I wondered if anyone could advise me over a noise nuisance problem
>>>> before it gets to the stage of becoming a legal matter.
>>>>  I live in a small close of four detached houses arranged in a semi
>>>> circle and for 24 years it has been a relatively quiet and friendly
>>>> community. One of the houses has been rented out for the last two
>>>> years or so and the last tenants, Eastern European workers, were a
>>>> little boisterous at times but generally good.
>>>>  A family moved into the house a couple of months ago and the
>>>> teenage son plays the drums for a hobby. As he uses a full drum kit
>>>> which is situated in the garage which faces our house, the noise at
>>>> times is extremely loud. I am in discussion with the boy's father
>>>> but he seems to want to impose time slots where his son will able
>>>> to play which include Saturdays and Sundays which I consider to be
>>>> days of relaxation.   I do not want to be heavy handed and stop the
>>>> son enjoying his hobby
>>>> but I wanted to know what the legal definition of "noise" and
>>>> "nuisance" is and what rights I have, to understand my bargaining
>>>> position.
>>>
>>> Google for the Environmental Protection Act 1990 and look at Section
>>> 79.
>> An update: The local Environmental Health Department have told my
>> friend that they can do nothing about the problem because, as
>> suggested by another poster, the noise is happening during the day.
>
>The law does not actually distinguish between night and day as regards noise 
>that is a nuisance, and excessive noise at any time is actionable, so I 
>think the Council could be pressed further on that if that is what he wants. 
>However, it is obviously reasonable that more allowance be given in  daytime 
>for normal activities.  Whether that applies to drum practice is a matter of 
>how much noise is being produced and how disturbing that noise is.
>
>> Their advice is to reach a compromise which he intends to do.
>
>Always good advice in any neighbour dispute.  It also very conveniently gets 
>the Council off the hook of having to deal with something they have a 
>statutory duty to deal with but which is in fact a bit delicate.  If 
>compromise doesn't work, your friend should push the Council into dealing 
>with it properly rather than sweeping it under the carpet.
>
It is astonishing how useless some councils are about noise, and
deplorable that they should misstate the law in this way. I may be
spoiled by living in Westminster. Here, they have a 24-hour dedicated
phone line for noise complaints, with a guaranteed 45 min response
time. They send out a team to listen themselves and take meter
readings. If *they* think the noise level is excessive, they take
action, although a word from them to the offender is usually all that
is necessary. The system works very well.

Some sources of noise are illegal per se, irrespective of the level,
although exactly what varies from area to area. In London it is
illegal to have a radio playing in the street (builders are the worst
for this), or to carry out building works outside permitted hours so
as to cause *any* noise which is audible from neighbouring premises.

Obviously, if the neighbour is prepared and able to take effective
steps to reduce the noise to a reasonable level, this is much better
than involving the council, although the awareness that that is
possibly may help to concentrate his mind.

-- 
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"