Hi

Does anyone think there is potential for the development of IT systems
within the legal profession?

for instance, what is typically tedious for a solicitor's life that
could be automated, like practice management systems in the health
industry and so on?

Software to help search cases, perhaps? Or to help track client
activity .. ?

Darren

In message 
, 
darren  writes
>Hi
>
>Does anyone think there is potential for the development of IT systems
>within the legal profession?
>
>for instance, what is typically tedious for a solicitor's life that
>could be automated, like practice management systems in the health
>industry and so on?
>
>Software to help search cases, perhaps? Or to help track client
>activity .. ?
>

Try here:

http://www.lssa.co.uk/
-- 
Richard Miller

On Oct 15, 1:28 am, MM  wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:11:19 -0700 (PDT), darren
>
>  wrote:
> >Hi
>
> >Does anyone think there is potential for the development of IT systems
> >within the legal profession?
>
> >for instance, what is typically tedious for a solicitor's life that
> >could be automated, like practice management systems in the health
> >industry and so on?
>
> >Software to help search cases, perhaps? Or to help track client
> >activity .. ?
>
> No. Most software is entirely unnecessary. Many small to medium size
> businesses could be run most effectively using traditional paper, pen
> and typewriter methods. You only *need* computers when there are
> massive numbers of records, i.e. child benefit, the MoD.
>
> MM

What about software to automatically generate arguments that win
cases? You just input the axioms and it will deduce conclusions from
the known data.  eg location = living room AND object = candlestick ..

On Oct 14, 11:36 pm, Richard Miller 
wrote:
> In message
> ,
> darren  writes
>
> >Hi
>
> >Does anyone think there is potential for the development of IT systems
> >within the legal profession?
>
> >for instance, what is typically tedious for a solicitor's life that
> >could be automated, like practice management systems in the health
> >industry and so on?
>
> >Software to help search cases, perhaps? Or to help track client
> >activity .. ?
>
> Try here:
>
> http://www.lssa.co.uk/
> --
> Richard Miller

Cool, thanks for the pointer Richard.  I see I'm not first to the
rainbow ;)

Do you think it would be easy for me to find work within the legal
sector in the UK, in order that I can basically just, to some extent,
observe lawyers at work - in order to try and spot ways in which their
workflows could be improved?

Darren

On Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:26:46 -0700 (PDT), darren
 wrote:

>On Oct 15, 1:28 am, MM  wrote:
>> On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:11:19 -0700 (PDT), darren
>>
>>  wrote:
>> >Hi
>>
>> >Does anyone think there is potential for the development of IT systems
>> >within the legal profession?
>>
>> >for instance, what is typically tedious for a solicitor's life that
>> >could be automated, like practice management systems in the health
>> >industry and so on?
>>
>> >Software to help search cases, perhaps? Or to help track client
>> >activity .. ?
>>
>> No. Most software is entirely unnecessary. Many small to medium size
>> businesses could be run most effectively using traditional paper, pen
>> and typewriter methods. You only *need* computers when there are
>> massive numbers of records, i.e. child benefit, the MoD.
>>
>> MM
>
>What about software to automatically generate arguments that win
>cases? You just input the axioms and it will deduce conclusions from
>the known data.  eg location = living room AND object = candlestick ..

"it" will only deduce based on the algorithms it has been programmed
with and the only people who can do that are lawyers who have the
experience to know (via programmers, of course, who translate the
knowledge into actual code). Computers still DO NOT have any reasoning
capability as human beings do. It is debatable whether a computer ever
will. I have been working in computing since 1978 and I still think
computers are at the Lucy (Australopithecus afarensis) stage of
evolution compared to moden human brains. You have to remember the
GIGO rule - garbage in, garbage out. Any computer can only do stuff
based on what its software tells it to do. And all software is, is a
set of questions saying, "what if....this?" and "what if...that?" I
wouldn't waste my time and money trying to explain years of legal
experience to a programmer so that he or she can program a computer.
I'd sooner employ better lawyers. You'd save a bundle in the long run.

MM

darren wrote:
> On Oct 14, 11:36 pm, Richard Miller 
> wrote:
>> In message
>> ,
>> darren  writes
>>
>>> Hi
>>
>>> Does anyone think there is potential for the development of IT
>>> systems within the legal profession?
>>
>>> for instance, what is typically tedious for a solicitor's life that
>>> could be automated, like practice management systems in the health
>>> industry and so on?
>>
>>> Software to help search cases, perhaps? Or to help track client
>>> activity .. ?
>>
>> Try here:
>>
>> http://www.lssa.co.uk/
>> --
>> Richard Miller
>
> Cool, thanks for the pointer Richard.  I see I'm not first to the
> rainbow ;)
>
> Do you think it would be easy for me to find work within the legal
> sector in the UK, in order that I can basically just, to some extent,
> observe lawyers at work - in order to try and spot ways in which their
> workflows could be improved?

The market leader is generally regarded to be "Visual Files".
http://www.visualfiles.com/

They have most of the market in case-management software.  Other players in 
the market include http://www.peapod-legal.co.uk/ and 
http://www.eclipselegal.co.uk/ and http://www.alphalaw.com/

So, rather than hang around in solicitors offices and trying to re-invent 
the wheel, I suggest you get a job with one of those companies (or if you 
are very cunning, pretend to be a solicitor and invite them in to 
demonstrate their software) and then consider how to find a gap in the 
market. Typically what lawyers want is the ability to generate documents 
quickly and easily and file them electronically against the individual case, 
the ability to do conflict searches, the ability to locate the correct file 
when given the name of a witness involved in the case, plus efficient ways 
of recording time and generating bills or billing guides and efficient ways 
of monitoring the productivity of the firm.

MM wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:11:19 -0700 (PDT), darren
>  wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> Does anyone think there is potential for the development of IT
>> systems within the legal profession?
>>
>> for instance, what is typically tedious for a solicitor's life that
>> could be automated, like practice management systems in the health
>> industry and so on?
>>
>> Software to help search cases, perhaps? Or to help track client
>> activity .. ?
>
> No. Most software is entirely unnecessary. Many small to medium size
> businesses could be run most effectively using traditional paper, pen
> and typewriter methods. You only *need* computers when there are
> massive numbers of records, i.e. child benefit, the MoD.

Hilarious, but untrue.

darren wrote:
> On Oct 15, 1:28 am, MM  wrote:
>> On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:11:19 -0700 (PDT), darren
>>
>>  wrote:
>>> Hi
>>
>>> Does anyone think there is potential for the development of IT
>>> systems within the legal profession?
>>
>>> for instance, what is typically tedious for a solicitor's life that
>>> could be automated, like practice management systems in the health
>>> industry and so on?
>>
>>> Software to help search cases, perhaps? Or to help track client
>>> activity .. ?
>>
>> No. Most software is entirely unnecessary. Many small to medium size
>> businesses could be run most effectively using traditional paper, pen
>> and typewriter methods. You only *need* computers when there are
>> massive numbers of records, i.e. child benefit, the MoD.
>>
>> MM
>
> What about software to automatically generate arguments that win
> cases? You just input the axioms and it will deduce conclusions from
> the known data.  eg location = living room AND object = candlestick ..

That would be rather a waste of time and nobody would be interested, but 
there will always be a market for any software which searches for relevant 
cases on a particular search term eg contract, voidable, sale of goods.

However, building a reliable database would require considerable skill and a 
team of rather expert librarians, and the computer software side of things 
would be - presumably - childs play.

The Todal wrote:
> darren wrote:
>> On Oct 15, 1:28 am, MM  wrote:
>>> On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:11:19 -0700 (PDT), darren
>>>
>>>  wrote:
>>>> Hi
>>>
>>>> Does anyone think there is potential for the development of IT
>>>> systems within the legal profession?
>>>
>>>> for instance, what is typically tedious for a solicitor's life that
>>>> could be automated, like practice management systems in the health
>>>> industry and so on?
>>>
>>>> Software to help search cases, perhaps? Or to help track client
>>>> activity .. ?
>>>
>>> No. Most software is entirely unnecessary. Many small to medium size
>>> businesses could be run most effectively using traditional paper,
>>> pen and typewriter methods. You only *need* computers when there are
>>> massive numbers of records, i.e. child benefit, the MoD.
>>>
>>> MM
>>
>> What about software to automatically generate arguments that win
>> cases? You just input the axioms and it will deduce conclusions from
>> the known data.  eg location = living room AND object = candlestick
>> ..
>
> That would be rather a waste of time and nobody would be interested,
> but there will always be a market for any software which searches for
> relevant cases on a particular search term eg contract, voidable,
> sale of goods.
> However, building a reliable database would require considerable
> skill and a team of rather expert librarians, and the computer
> software side of things would be - presumably - childs play.

Oh, something else has occurred to me. There is a huge fortune to be made, 
if any clever software designed can come up with a special damage calculator 
that incorporates - accurately - the contents of Ogden Six.  Link here: 
http://www.gad.gov.uk/Documents/Ogden_Tables_6th_edition.pdf

darren wrote:

> Hi
> 
> Does anyone think there is potential for the development of IT systems
> within the legal profession?
> 
> for instance, what is typically tedious for a solicitor's life that
> could be automated, like practice management systems in the health
> industry and so on?
> 
> Software to help search cases, perhaps? Or to help track client
> activity .. ?
> 
> Darren

I designed and implemented such a system last century. It's a case
handling system similar to that used by GPs except it handles legal
cases instead of medical. Makes it easier to call up client dtails,
record times spent and send form letters plus other things specifically
required. My system was developed for a specific area of the legal
profession but there are off the shelf systems available that are
generally adaptable

On Thu, 16 Oct 2008 10:05:24 +0100, "The Todal" 
wrote:

>MM wrote:
>> On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:11:19 -0700 (PDT), darren
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> Does anyone think there is potential for the development of IT
>>> systems within the legal profession?
>>>
>>> for instance, what is typically tedious for a solicitor's life that
>>> could be automated, like practice management systems in the health
>>> industry and so on?
>>>
>>> Software to help search cases, perhaps? Or to help track client
>>> activity .. ?
>>
>> No. Most software is entirely unnecessary. Many small to medium size
>> businesses could be run most effectively using traditional paper, pen
>> and typewriter methods. You only *need* computers when there are
>> massive numbers of records, i.e. child benefit, the MoD.
>
>Hilarious, but untrue. 

What is untrue?

MM

MM wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Oct 2008 10:05:24 +0100, "The Todal" 
> wrote:
>
>> MM wrote:
>>> On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:11:19 -0700 (PDT), darren
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone think there is potential for the development of IT
>>>> systems within the legal profession?
>>>>
>>>> for instance, what is typically tedious for a solicitor's life that
>>>> could be automated, like practice management systems in the health
>>>> industry and so on?
>>>>
>>>> Software to help search cases, perhaps? Or to help track client
>>>> activity .. ?
>>>
>>> No. Most software is entirely unnecessary. Many small to medium size
>>> businesses could be run most effectively using traditional paper,
>>> pen and typewriter methods. You only *need* computers when there are
>>> massive numbers of records, i.e. child benefit, the MoD.
>>
>> Hilarious, but untrue.
>
> What is untrue?

Your proposition that (if I understand you correctly) many small to medium 
size firms of solicitors can be run without computers or computer software 
and using only paper, pen and typewriter.  Nowadays, nobody could manage 
paying the staff their wages or managing the books (paying debts, collecting 
payments on bills) without fairly sophisticated computer software, and you 
would search in vain for a cashier willing to do it by hand, writing out the 
payslips and using the old double entry book-keeping.

>
> Does anyone think there is potential for the development of IT systems
> within the legal profession?
>
> for instance, what is typically tedious for a solicitor's life that
> could be automated, like practice management systems in the health
> industry and so on?
>

Why on earth would anyone in the legal profession want such a thing?

It's charging the earth for easily processed tedious crap, that in
reality anyone could do, that keeps them in such a good living.

That the whole point of it being a profession, a closed shop where you
can keep enough people out by having ever more absurdly complex
qualifications and, of course, ensure Johnny foreigner doesn’t get in
on a piece of the action.

Blooming heck where’s my crucifix?

On 16 Oct, 20:30, allan tracy  wrote:

>
> Why on earth would anyone in the legal profession want such a thing?
>

Speeds things up, avoids standard errors, the usual stuff. Lots of
solicitors use a wide variety of work-flow software and case
management tools. Even barristers have software to manage their
diaries and billing.

> It's charging the earth for easily processed tedious crap, that in
> reality anyone could do, that keeps them in such a good living.

Rubbish (and that's me being polite). Have a go at putting together a
decent skeleton argument for an appeal and then decide whether "anyone
could do it".

I have dealt with many cases where commercial organisations have
(without consulting their solicitors) drafted agreements which have
then resulted in all kinds of problems because they were so badly
drawn. For example many letting agents insist on drafting their own
tenancy agreements and then getting into lots of trouble later on. The
cost of having a competent solicitor draft one is tiny compared with
the number of uses the document would have.

We could probably automate a lot of this sort of thing so that much of
the standard transactional stuff could be simplified *if* the law
remained stable over some reasonable horizon but it does not. It
therefore requires that people keep up with the state of the law now
and ensure that all the processes work within that framework.

>
> That the whole point of it being a profession, a closed shop where you
> can keep enough people out by having ever more absurdly complex
> qualifications and, of course, ensure Johnny foreigner doesn’t get in
> on a piece of the action.

Also rubbish. Why do people pay me to do some of the things I do? I
give legal advice backed by insurance. If what I did was so easy, why
not set yourself up selling the same services? There's no law against
giving legal advice without professional qualifications. Most of the
market I work in is entirely open. I grant you that will writing and
conveyancing are both closed markets (though I sell neither service)
but both are considerably more open than once they were.

There are issues to do with the way the professions operate, but the
idea that all this can be equally done by unskilled and untrained
personnel is just naive.

Francis

Calm down it was a joke.

My work often involves complex technical specifications for the
railway industry that often end up being used in contracts.

I would never dream of doing this without reference to our resident
legal advisor.

I once came across a contract of employment my cousin had been asked
to sign. It had clearly been drawn up by what was some sort of neo
fascist employer with a bad case of hypertension.

Within the first page alone, I spotted five clauses and conditions
that were clearly, even with my limited knowledge, contrary to the law
of the land, it was patently obvious no advice had been taken except
say from Del Boy.

My advice was to sign it and keep a copy on the basis that it would be
all the ammunition you could ever need at a tribunal, even if you’ve
been sacked for decking the boss.

On Oct 16, 2:54 am, "The Todal"  wrote:
> The Todal wrote:
> > darren wrote:
> >> On Oct 15, 1:28 am, MM  wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:11:19 -0700 (PDT), darren
>
> >>>  wrote:
> >>>> Hi
>
> >>>> Does anyone think there is potential for the development of IT
> >>>> systems within the legal profession?
>
> >>>> for instance, what is typically tedious for a solicitor's life that
> >>>> could be automated, like practice management systems in the health
> >>>> industry and so on?
>
> >>>> Software to help search cases, perhaps? Or to help track client
> >>>> activity .. ?
>
> >>> No. Most software is entirely unnecessary. Many small to medium size
> >>> businesses could be run most effectively using traditional paper,
> >>> pen and typewriter methods. You only *need* computers when there are
> >>> massive numbers of records, i.e. child benefit, the MoD.
>
> >>> MM
>
> >> What about software to automatically generate arguments that win
> >> cases? You just input the axioms and it will deduce conclusions from
> >> the known data.  eg location = living room AND object = candlestick
> >> ..
>
> > That would be rather a waste of time and nobody would be interested,
> > but there will always be a market for any software which searches for
> > relevant cases on a particular search term eg contract, voidable,
> > sale of goods.
> > However, building a reliable database would require considerable
> > skill and a team of rather expert librarians, and the computer
> > software side of things would be - presumably - childs play.
>
> Oh, something else has occurred to me. There is a huge fortune to be made> if any clever software designed can come up with a special damage calculator
> that incorporates - accurately - the contents of Ogden Six.  Link here:http://www.gad.gov.uk/Documents/Ogden_Tables_6th_edition.pdf

For real? This doesn't seem particularly complex .. not the numerical
calculations contained within this pdf at least.

I think we could probably develop a piece of software pretty easily,
you game? :)

-darren

darren wrote:
> On Oct 16, 2:54 am, "The Todal"  wrote:
>> The Todal wrote:
>>> darren wrote:
>>>> On Oct 15, 1:28 am, MM  wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:11:19 -0700 (PDT), darren
>>
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>> Hi
>>
>>>>>> Does anyone think there is potential for the development of IT
>>>>>> systems within the legal profession?
>>
>>>>>> for instance, what is typically tedious for a solicitor's life
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> could be automated, like practice management systems in the
>>>>>> health
>>>>>> industry and so on?
>>
>>>>>> Software to help search cases, perhaps? Or to help track client
>>>>>> activity .. ?
>>
>>>>> No. Most software is entirely unnecessary. Many small to medium
>>>>> size
>>>>> businesses could be run most effectively using traditional paper,
>>>>> pen and typewriter methods. You only *need* computers when there
>>>>> are
>>>>> massive numbers of records, i.e. child benefit, the MoD.
>>
>>>>> MM
>>
>>>> What about software to automatically generate arguments that win
>>>> cases? You just input the axioms and it will deduce conclusions
>>>> from
>>>> the known data. eg location = living room AND object = candlestick
>>>> ..
>>
>>> That would be rather a waste of time and nobody would be interested,
>>> but there will always be a market for any software which searches
>>> for
>>> relevant cases on a particular search term eg contract, voidable,
>>> sale of goods.
>>> However, building a reliable database would require considerable
>>> skill and a team of rather expert librarians, and the computer
>>> software side of things would be - presumably - childs play.
>>
>> Oh, something else has occurred to me. There is a huge fortune to be
>> made,
>> if any clever software designed can come up with a special damage
>> calculator
>> that incorporates - accurately - the contents of Ogden Six. Link
>> here:http://www.gad.gov.uk/Documents/Ogden_Tables_6th_edition.pdf
>
> For real? This doesn't seem particularly complex .. not the numerical
> calculations contained within this pdf at least.
>
> I think we could probably develop a piece of software pretty easily,
> you game? :)

I'm more than willing to test-drive any software you want to write.

There are huge numbers of solicitors and insurers who want a user-friendly 
program to calculate a claimant's financial losses. It would have to prompt 
for the claimant's date of birth, date of accident,  likely retiring age, 
pre-accident earnings, current earnings, and for any other factors in Ogden 
Six.  After the user enters the data, the program would have to display a 
calculation which ideally should be copied into a blank Word document at the 
press of a button.

If you can perfect a program that is user-friendly you can sell it at about 
300 pounds per user (inclusive of 12 months of support) and will quickly 
have in excess of 1000 users.

In message 
, 
darren  writes
>On Oct 14, 11:36 pm, Richard Miller 
>wrote:
>> In message
>> ,
>> darren  writes
>>
>> >Hi
>>
>> >Does anyone think there is potential for the development of IT systems
>> >within the legal profession?
>>
>> >for instance, what is typically tedious for a solicitor's life that
>> >could be automated, like practice management systems in the health
>> >industry and so on?
>>
>> >Software to help search cases, perhaps? Or to help track client
>> >activity .. ?
>>
>> Try here:
>>
>> http://www.lssa.co.uk/
>> --
>> Richard Miller
>
>Cool, thanks for the pointer Richard.  I see I'm not first to the
>rainbow ;)
>
>Do you think it would be easy for me to find work within the legal
>sector in the UK, in order that I can basically just, to some extent,
>observe lawyers at work - in order to try and spot ways in which their
>workflows could be improved?
>

Possibly. There are various legal sector management consultants whose 
work focuses on such things. I know at least a couple of them have been 
expanding quite rapidly recently, eg DG Legal. There is a list of 
consultants on the Law Society website:

http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/choosingandusing/findasolicitor/CLACdirector
y.page

Wayne Williams from that list did quite a bit of work on LEAN management 
techniques, which is what your description above sounds like.

-- 
Richard Miller

> I'm more than willing to test-drive any software you want to write.
>
> There are huge numbers of solicitors and insurers who want a user-friendly
> program to calculate a claimant's financial losses. It would have to prompt
> for the claimant's date of birth, date of accident,  likely retiring age,
> pre-accident earnings, current earnings, and for any other factors in Ogden
> Six.  After the user enters the data, the program would have to display a
> calculation which ideally should be copied into a blank Word document at the
> press of a button.
>
> If you can perfect a program that is user-friendly you can sell it at about
> 300 pounds per user (inclusive of 12 months of support) and will quickly
> have in excess of 1000 users.

I find it hard to believe it would be that easy, but I'm down for
giving it a go ;)

I will study the Ogden document and report back.

Would you be able to contact me directly by email? You can reach me
via my blogposts.darren@gmail.com address, I will reply from my
private address.

Cheers :)
Darren

> I'm more than willing to test-drive any software you want to write.
>
> There are huge numbers of solicitors and insurers who want a user-friendly
> program to calculate a claimant's financial losses. It would have to prompt
> for the claimant's date of birth, date of accident,  likely retiring age,
> pre-accident earnings, current earnings, and for any other factors in Ogden
> Six.  After the user enters the data, the program would have to display a
> calculation which ideally should be copied into a blank Word document at the
> press of a button.
>
> If you can perfect a program that is user-friendly you can sell it at about
> 300 pounds per user (inclusive of 12 months of support) and will quickly
> have in excess of 1000 users.

I find it hard to believe it would be that easy, but I'm down for
giving it a go ;)

I will study the Ogden document and report back.

Cheers :)
Darren

On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:11:19 -0700 (PDT), darren
 wrote:

>Hi
>
>Does anyone think there is potential for the development of IT systems
>within the legal profession?
>
>for instance, what is typically tedious for a solicitor's life that
>could be automated, like practice management systems in the health
>industry and so on?
>
>Software to help search cases, perhaps? Or to help track client
>activity .. ?

No. Most software is entirely unnecessary. Many small to medium size
businesses could be run most effectively using traditional paper, pen
and typewriter methods. You only *need* computers when there are
massive numbers of records, i.e. child benefit, the MoD.

MM

On Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:28:41 +0100, MM  wrote:

>No. Most software is entirely unnecessary. Many small to medium size
>businesses could be run most effectively using traditional paper, pen
>and typewriter methods. You only *need* computers when there are
>massive numbers of records, i.e. child benefit, the MoD.

Would you regard the number of law reports that exist as being
"massive", or do you feel that computer searches through tens of
thousands of law reports to find precedents and judgements of similar
cases to be something that is best handled by a human using memory and
a library full of Times Law Reports?

-- 
Cynic