Hi , I was willed in writing in my mothers will  , all her personal
papers , as she and I knew this included the family archives from her
father and grandfather , we agreed  verbally they  would not be sold
and that is my intentions  , Im confident I and my mother were legally
the owners and I have no intention of selling them but the contents of
telegrams is of possible interest and possible value to historians and
publishers

I have read the copyright articles and note a possible problem from
this section , would need to look into it more
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyrights#Duration

 probably some telegrams would contain sensitive official material
from wars in the British empire , which it seems was why they were
collected , although they are not sorted in any way but
sequentially  , and there is no way to prove who originally gathered
them
They were my grandfathers as far as I understood , he  lived near the
overland telegraph , he was not a foreign agent nor a postal worker
with  access ,
.
He may have simply stored them as was his habit ,to look after the
assets of people who vanished or died without relatives in his
district among the  many " Afghans " , he stored personal belongings
until relatives could be located amongst the "Afghan cameleers" , many
who had no family in Australia
http://www.southaustralianhistory.com.au/afghans.htm

BUT

Who owns telegrams from 1872  to  1930s, that were it seems collected
by an agent of the Otterman Empire , or possibly a USA agent as
grandparents  had close ties with the radical left from all sides ,
most were probably illegal intercepted via the overland telegraph from
England , but  of interest they  carry messages from every country on
earth ,  to and from almost everybody  you could imagine would the
sender have any say about release of contents, some it seems could be
of interest to historians for publication and  damaging to the
reputations of others of that time

Its most unlikely anybody living today would have sent a telegram pre
1930 and most personal telegrams were very basic messages of little
privacy concern , but some are  very interesting  , simply by the
names and dates of the sender and receivers , their frequency and
timing  can  even tell heaps more than the contents when viewed from a
historical POV

MY QUESTION

Would I be guilty of owning these , if they were very embarrassing to
any government or living person could they claim them or charge me
with something if I use / sell copies / or publish the contents

Its seems there is a complete original  paper , " set "of every
telegram sent and received since 1872 and 1930

kangarooistan
==========

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I assume it was easy to get these in the long  telegraph line to
England and often wonder if the USA was the original people behind the
collection when it started in 1870s and why it stopped in 1930s , the
yanks were and are still active in monitoring most  communications and
Turkey could more easily use many other places, there is most likely
many others who also have copies,  although I know of none in private
collections uncensored by governments of the day

Australian Overland Telegraph Line
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overland_Telegraph

The Australian Overland Telegraph Line was a 3200 km telegraph line
that connected Darwin with Port Augusta in South Australia. Completed
in 1872 the Overland Telegraph Line allowed fast communication between
Australia and the rest of the world
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.southaustralianhistory.com.au/afghans.htm
 However in 1866 Stuckey succeeded in bringing out more than a hundred
camels and, as nobody knew how to handle camels, 31 Afghan cameleers
as well.

Although these, and later camelmen, came from different ethnic groups
and from vastly different places such as Baluchistan, Kashmir, Sind,
Rajastan, Egypt, Persia, Turkey and Punjab, they were collectively
known as Afghans.

In early 1870 the Afghans went on strike and most left Beltana and
moved to Blinman. In 1873 Mahomet Saleh, an Afghan cameleer, left
Beltana for Western Australia with explorer P.E. Warburton. William
Christie Gosse was assisted by three Afghans in his attempt to find a
way from the Finke River to Perth. Two years later he assisted Ernest
Giles on one of his expeditions. J.W. Lewis, surveying the country
north east of Lake Eyre in 1874 and 1875 used camels. Later Thomas
Elder's teams carried desperately needed supplies for the starving
diggers at Milparinka.

One early arrival was Haji Mulla Merban from Kandahar, Afghanistan. He
came to Port Darwin and acted as leader among the Afghan camel
drivers working for the Overland Telegraph Line. After a three year
visit to India and Afghanistan he eventually settled in Adelaide. He
married a European woman and acted as a peace maker

On Oct 14, 7:03 am, kangarooistan8  wrote:

I assume this concerns telegrams in Australia.  Similar considerations
would apply in UK or other countries.

It depends how they originated.  It they were the originals deposited
for transmission, or 'intermediate' copies at places such as Alice
Springs (the town grew around a telegraph station on the Darwin to
Adelaide Overland Telegraph, which carried international traffic into
Australia and thence New Zealand), then they belong to the successor
of the telegraph company / agency and would remain subject to
telecommunications confidentality provisions enacted in law.  It would
be obvious that they were unlawfully removed from the telegraph
stations and so whoever has them holds them unlawfully.  The successor
of the telegraph company / agency  has better title than anyone who
holds them and can therefore lawfully demand their return.  In
Australia successors would have been the Postmaster General or the
Overseas Telecommunications Commission, and the successor to these
would be some unit of the Australian Federal Government.

The most honourable thing to do with them would be to present them to
the Government's archives section in Canberra.

The situation is different if they were telegrams that had been
delivered to receipients.  These would belong to the receipients or
their successors as explicitly or implicitly willed.  Copyright is
unlikely to be an issue with them.  The content of some could be
regarded as state secrets, but since most 'secret' documents from that
era have been 'declassified' this is unlikely to be an issue either.

On Oct 14, 5:51 am, peterwn  wrote:
> On Oct 14, 7:03 am, kangarooistan8  wrote:
>
> I assume this concerns telegrams in Australia.  Similar considerations
> would apply in UK or other countries.
>
> It depends how they originated.  It they were the originals deposited
> for transmission, or 'intermediate' copies at places such as Alice
> Springs (the town grew around a telegraph station on the Darwin to
> Adelaide Overland Telegraph, which carried international traffic into
> Australia and thence New Zealand), then they belong to the successor
> of the telegraph company / agency and would remain subject to
> telecommunications confidentality provisions enacted in law.  It would
> be obvious that they were unlawfully removed from the telegraph
> stations and so whoever has them holds them unlawfully.  The successor
> of the telegraph company / agency  has better title than anyone who
> holds them and can therefore lawfully demand their return.  In
> Australia successors would have been the Postmaster General or the
> Overseas Telecommunications Commission, and the successor to these
> would be some unit of the Australian Federal Government.
>
> The most honourable thing to do with them would be to present them to
> the Government's archives section in Canberra.
>
> The situation is different if they were telegrams that had been
> delivered to receipients.  These would belong to the receipients or
> their successors as explicitly or implicitly willed.  Copyright is
> unlikely to be an issue with them.  The content of some could be
> regarded as state secrets, but since most 'secret' documents from that
> era have been 'declassified' this is unlikely to be an issue either.

As you kindly point out , they may have been copies from a repeater
station of which there were many across Australia , and many of these
closed down slowly as technology improved and probably left much
unrequired material in those stations as worth less than the cost of
returning to city bases

This may be a found set , Im not away of any reported " stolen "
copies and the senders and receivers and governments would all have
their copies if they wanted them
.
Grandpa kept the Mosque library archives from Marree which was "camel
central" for all Australia and personal papers and "books" slowly
migrated there , if the relatives could not be located and smaller out
stations slowly closed at the end of the  camel transport era , mostly
well named and in order for storage and return if and when a rely
could be identified , except the telegrams are not  labeled as to who
was the " owner "

=============================================================.
QUESTION
If they were abandoned or found , over 70 years ago and nobody claimed
them, and nobody reported them as LOST , is it finders keepers ????

If the PMG dumped them or abandoned them , as they possibly did , what
does the law say as to future ownership

Its likely in 1930 they were of no more value than old newspapers ,
its only now they are of value as they have been carefully stored and
cared for , indeed they really only have " value " as research /
history , and mostly as they are part of a large set , as individual
telegrams they would not be easily verifiable as originals and if
removed as individuals telegram copies ,  would be  only scrap paper ,
they are COPIES but as part of a set of many many thousands have great
historic interest potential , indeed I myself used them at times to
research names and dates of interest , and see their potential value
to researchers is incredible as a  complete set

What happens if you find a box of old letters in the cieling,that are
from a famous person , with nothing to indicate who owns them ???
================================================================
 , as there are and where named identifiable owners found for return
of the property belonging to deceased " Afghan " cameleers I myself
assumed these came into grandpas care at this time[ 1930s ] for safe
keeping as there were less and less of the original cameleers who all
died out by 1964 as did my grandpa , I only took over 5 years ago  "
custody " of papers   when mum died

I assume the national library would own copies  , indeed I assume
every government would also

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:00:28 -0700, kangarooistan7 wrote:


> I assume the national library would own copies  , indeed I assume every
> government would also

I do not understand how you can reach that opinion.
My 2c is deposit them all with the National Archives or such. It will
clear any problems from your hands and put them with a body that can make
them available to various historians/geneaologists, ec, etc.

On Oct 14, 11:00 am, kangarooistan7  wrote:
> On Oct 14, 5:51 am, peterwn  wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 14, 7:03 am, kangarooistan8  wrote:
>
> > I assume this concerns telegrams in Australia.  Similar considerations
> > would apply in UK or other countries.
>
> > It depends how they originated.  It they were the originals deposited
> > for transmission, or 'intermediate' copies at places such as Alice
> > Springs (the town grew around a telegraph station on the Darwin to
> > Adelaide Overland Telegraph, which carried international traffic into
> > Australia and thence New Zealand), then they belong to the successor
> > of the telegraph company / agency and would remain subject to
> > telecommunications confidentality provisions enacted in law.  It would
> > be obvious that they were unlawfully removed from the telegraph
> > stations and so whoever has them holds them unlawfully.  The successor
> > of the telegraph company / agency  has better title than anyone who
> > holds them and can therefore lawfully demand their return.  In
> > Australia successors would have been the Postmaster General or the
> > Overseas Telecommunications Commission, and the successor to these
> > would be some unit of the Australian Federal Government.
>
> > The most honourable thing to do with them would be to present them to
> > the Government's archives section in Canberra.
>
> > The situation is different if they were telegrams that had been
> > delivered to receipients.  These would belong to the receipients or
> > their successors as explicitly or implicitly willed.  Copyright is
> > unlikely to be an issue with them.  The content of some could be
> > regarded as state secrets, but since most 'secret' documents from that
> > era have been 'declassified' this is unlikely to be an issue either.
>
> As you kindly point out , they may have been copies from a repeater
> station of which there were many across Australia , and many of these
> closed down slowly as technology improved and probably left much
> unrequired material in those stations as worth less than the cost of
> returning to city bases

There would have been procedures in place to deal with these copies
and it is very likely that documentation of such procedures survive,
if they were not returned to some other base they should have been
destroyed.  This would be the presumption unless there is evidence to
the contrary.  Hence the presumption that if they are in 'extraneous'
hands they were unlawfully removed from the telegraph station in the
first place.

Even if the normal laws of property indicate that they were 'lost'
then 'found', passing on the 'station' originals or copies or letting
other see them would most probably be a breach of telecommunications
secrecy legislation.  On this basis the Federal Government would be
able to demand their return.

"kangarooistan8"  wrote in message 
news:99ec3be3-b682-4de8-a10f-49f431d59764@e2g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> Hi , I was willed in writing in my mothers will  , all her personal
> papers , as she and I knew this included the family archives from her
> father and grandfather , we agreed  verbally they  would not be sold
> and that is my intentions  , Im confident I and my mother were legally
> the owners and I have no intention of selling them but the contents of
> telegrams is of possible interest and possible value to historians and
> publishers
>
> I have read the copyright articles and note a possible problem from
> this section , would need to look into it more
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyrights#Duration
>
> probably some telegrams would contain sensitive official material
> from wars in the British empire , which it seems was why they were
> collected , although they are not sorted in any way but
> sequentially  , and there is no way to prove who originally gathered
> them
> They were my grandfathers as far as I understood , he  lived near the
> overland telegraph , he was not a foreign agent nor a postal worker
> with  access ,
> .
> He may have simply stored them as was his habit ,to look after the
> assets of people who vanished or died without relatives in his
> district among the  many " Afghans " , he stored personal belongings
> until relatives could be located amongst the "Afghan cameleers" , many
> who had no family in Australia
> http://www.southaustralianhistory.com.au/afghans.htm
>
> BUT
>
> Who owns telegrams from 1872  to  1930s, that were it seems collected
> by an agent of the Otterman Empire , or possibly a USA agent as
> grandparents  had close ties with the radical left from all sides ,
> most were probably illegal intercepted via the overland telegraph from
> England , but  of interest they  carry messages from every country on
> earth ,  to and from almost everybody  you could imagine would the
> sender have any say about release of contents, some it seems could be
> of interest to historians for publication and  damaging to the
> reputations of others of that time
>
> Its most unlikely anybody living today would have sent a telegram pre
> 1930 and most personal telegrams were very basic messages of little
> privacy concern , but some are  very interesting  , simply by the
> names and dates of the sender and receivers , their frequency and
> timing  can  even tell heaps more than the contents when viewed from a
> historical POV
>
> MY QUESTION
>
> Would I be guilty of owning these , if they were very embarrassing to
> any government or living person could they claim them or charge me
> with something if I use / sell copies / or publish the contents
>
> Its seems there is a complete original  paper , " set "of every
> telegram sent and received since 1872 and 1930
>
> kangarooistan
> ==========
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I assume it was easy to get these in the long  telegraph line to
> England and often wonder if the USA was the original people behind the
> collection when it started in 1870s and why it stopped in 1930s , the
> yanks were and are still active in monitoring most  communications and
> Turkey could more easily use many other places, there is most likely
> many others who also have copies,  although I know of none in private
> collections uncensored by governments of the day
>
> Australian Overland Telegraph Line
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overland_Telegraph
>
> The Australian Overland Telegraph Line was a 3200 km telegraph line
> that connected Darwin with Port Augusta in South Australia. Completed
> in 1872 the Overland Telegraph Line allowed fast communication between
> Australia and the rest of the world
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> http://www.southaustralianhistory.com.au/afghans.htm
> However in 1866 Stuckey succeeded in bringing out more than a hundred
> camels and, as nobody knew how to handle camels, 31 Afghan cameleers
> as well.
>
> Although these, and later camelmen, came from different ethnic groups
> and from vastly different places such as Baluchistan, Kashmir, Sind,
> Rajastan, Egypt, Persia, Turkey and Punjab, they were collectively
> known as Afghans.
>
> In early 1870 the Afghans went on strike and most left Beltana and
> moved to Blinman. In 1873 Mahomet Saleh, an Afghan cameleer, left
> Beltana for Western Australia with explorer P.E. Warburton. William
> Christie Gosse was assisted by three Afghans in his attempt to find a
> way from the Finke River to Perth. Two years later he assisted Ernest
> Giles on one of his expeditions. J.W. Lewis, surveying the country
> north east of Lake Eyre in 1874 and 1875 used camels. Later Thomas
> Elder's teams carried desperately needed supplies for the starving
> diggers at Milparinka.
>
> One early arrival was Haji Mulla Merban from Kandahar, Afghanistan. He
> came to Port Darwin and acted as leader among the Afghan camel
> drivers working for the Overland Telegraph Line. After a three year
> visit to India and Afghanistan he eventually settled in Adelaide. He
> married a European woman and acted as a peace maker

It is impossible to be sure without knowing all of the details, but I'll 
apply some general rules to speculated details and see where it leads.

If you don't know that the materials were stolen property, then you are not 
guilty of possession of stolen property.  Suspicion about the origin is not 
enough.  If all you want to do with the documents is keep them forever, then 
you are free to do that until someone proves a superior claim or proves that 
the property is stolen.  If such a claim wins, you would lose some of the 
documents, but no crime would be involved.

If you intend to give them to a museum, you are free to do that.  The museum 
would take over responsibility for defending them from claims.

If the physical documents were in the possession of the telegraph company 
and then stolen before being delivered to the recipients, then they are 
possibly now owned by the successor in interest of the telegraph company. 
But that is not a sure thing.  The successor might have acquired "certain 
assets" rather than "all assets."  And the successor might have bought 
listed assets in a foreclosure sale or sheriff's sale, in which case these 
documents would not have been included.  There might be no plaintiff in 
existence who could assert any claim superior to your own.

If these documents were delivered to the addressees and then acquired by the 
collector, no telegraph company could have any claim.  It would be nearly 
impossible for the successor to prove that the documents did not come from 
the addressees.  I am 91.6% certain that no telegraph company would ever 
assert a claim.

If the documents were stolen from the wire, with the physical documents 
never being in the possession of the telegraph company, then the thief 
created the documents using stolen electronic signals as the source.  The 
physical documents were never the property of the telegraph company or the 
addressees.  The heirs of the signal thief inherited the physical documents. 
But there is no crime involved for the heirs and it is very unlikely that 
anyone could assert a superior claim to the documents.

The contents of the documents, aside from the paper and ink, are intangible 
personal property subject to copyright protection.  The copyright laws of 
the country of origin would be the relevant law.  All copyrights have almost 
certainly expired.  That means that if you keep the documents forever or 
sell them or give them to a museum, there is virtually no possibility of a 
claim by an heir of a copyright holder.

Relax.  If you are planning to write a history book, go for it.  No 
publisher will balk because of the suspicious origin.

This answer must not be relied on as legal advice for the reasons posted 
here:  http://mcgyverdisclaimer.blogspot.com .  And I am not your attorney.

McGyver

On Oct 14, 9:09 am, "McGyver"  wrote:
> "kangarooistan8"  wrote in message
>
> news:99ec3be3-b682-4de8-a10f-49f431d59764@e2g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Hi , I was willed in writing in my mothers will  , all her personal
> > papers , as she and I knew this included the family archives from her
> > father and grandfather , we agreed  verbally they  would not be sold
> > and that is my intentions  , Im confident I and my mother were legally
> > the owners and I have no intention of selling them but the contents of
> > telegrams is of possible interest and possible value to historians and
> > publishers
>
> > I have read the copyright articles and note a possible problem from
> > this section , would need to look into it more
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyrights#Duration
>
> > probably some telegrams would contain sensitive official material
> > from wars in the British empire , which it seems was why they were
> > collected , although they are not sorted in any way but
> > sequentially  , and there is no way to prove who originally gathered
> > them
> > They were my grandfathers as far as I understood , he  lived near the
> > overland telegraph , he was not a foreign agent nor a postal worker
> > with  access ,
> > .
> > He may have simply stored them as was his habit ,to look after the
> > assets of people who vanished or died without relatives in his
> > district among the  many " Afghans " , he stored personal belongings
> > until relatives could be located amongst the "Afghan cameleers" , many
> > who had no family in Australia
> >http://www.southaustralianhistory.com.au/afghans.htm
>
> > BUT
>
> > Who owns telegrams from 1872  to  1930s, that were it seems collected
> > by an agent of the Otterman Empire , or possibly a USA agent as
> > grandparents  had close ties with the radical left from all sides ,
> > most were probably illegal intercepted via the overland telegraph from
> > England , but  of interest they  carry messages from every country on
> > earth ,  to and from almost everybody  you could imagine would the
> > sender have any say about release of contents, some it seems could be
> > of interest to historians for publication and  damaging to the
> > reputations of others of that time
>
> > Its most unlikely anybody living today would have sent a telegram pre
> > 1930 and most personal telegrams were very basic messages of little
> > privacy concern , but some are  very interesting  , simply by the
> > names and dates of the sender and receivers , their frequency and
> > timing  can  even tell heaps more than the contents when viewed from a
> > historical POV
>
> > MY QUESTION
>
> > Would I be guilty of owning these , if they were very embarrassing to
> > any government or living person could they claim them or charge me
> > with something if I use / sell copies / or publish the contents
>
> > Its seems there is a complete original  paper , " set "of every
> > telegram sent and received since 1872 and 1930
>
> > kangarooistan
> > ==========
>
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> > I assume it was easy to get these in the long  telegraph line to
> > England and often wonder if the USA was the original people behind the
> > collection when it started in 1870s and why it stopped in 1930s , the
> > yanks were and are still active in monitoring most  communications and
> > Turkey could more easily use many other places, there is most likely
> > many others who also have copies,  although I know of none in private
> > collections uncensored by governments of the day
>
> > Australian Overland Telegraph Line
> > From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overland_Telegraph
>
> > The Australian Overland Telegraph Line was a 3200 km telegraph line
> > that connected Darwin with Port Augusta in South Australia. Completed
> > in 1872 the Overland Telegraph Line allowed fast communication between
> > Australia and the rest of the world
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------> >http://www.southaustralianhistory.com.au/afghans.htm
> > However in 1866 Stuckey succeeded in bringing out more than a hundred
> > camels and, as nobody knew how to handle camels, 31 Afghan cameleers
> > as well.
>
> > Although these, and later camelmen, came from different ethnic groups
> > and from vastly different places such as Baluchistan, Kashmir, Sind,
> > Rajastan, Egypt, Persia, Turkey and Punjab, they were collectively
> > known as Afghans.
>
> > In early 1870 the Afghans went on strike and most left Beltana and
> > moved to Blinman. In 1873 Mahomet Saleh, an Afghan cameleer, left
> > Beltana for Western Australia with explorer P.E. Warburton. William
> > Christie Gosse was assisted by three Afghans in his attempt to find a
> > way from the Finke River to Perth. Two years later he assisted Ernest
> > Giles on one of his expeditions. J.W. Lewis, surveying the country
> > north east of Lake Eyre in 1874 and 1875 used camels. Later Thomas
> > Elder's teams carried desperately needed supplies for the starving
> > diggers at Milparinka.
>
> > One early arrival was Haji Mulla Merban from Kandahar, Afghanistan. He
> > came to Port Darwin and acted as leader among the Afghan camel
> > drivers working for the Overland Telegraph Line. After a three year
> > visit to India and Afghanistan he eventually settled in Adelaide. He
> > married a European woman and acted as a peace maker
>
> It is impossible to be sure without knowing all of the details, but I'll
> apply some general rules to speculated details and see where it leads.
>
> If you don't know that the materials were stolen property, then you are not
> guilty of possession of stolen property.  Suspicion about the origin is not
> enough.  If all you want to do with the documents is keep them forever, then
> you are free to do that until someone proves a superior claim or proves that
> the property is stolen.  If such a claim wins, you would lose some of the
> documents, but no crime would be involved.
>
> If you intend to give them to a museum, you are free to do that.  The museum
> would take over responsibility for defending them from claims.
>
> If the physical documents were in the possession of the telegraph company
> and then stolen before being delivered to the recipients, then they are
> possibly now owned by the successor in interest of the telegraph company.
> But that is not a sure thing.  The successor might have acquired "certain
> assets" rather than "all assets."  And the successor might have bought
> listed assets in a foreclosure sale or sheriff's sale, in which case these
> documents would not have been included.  There might be no plaintiff in
> existence who could assert any claim superior to your own.
>
> If these documents were delivered to the addressees and then acquired by the
> collector, no telegraph company could have any claim.  It would be nearly
> impossible for the successor to prove that the documents did not come from
> the addressees.  I am 91.6% certain that no telegraph company would ever
> assert a claim.
>
> If the documents were stolen from the wire, with the physical documents
> never being in the possession of the telegraph company, then the thief
> created the documents using stolen electronic signals as the source.  The
> physical documents were never the property of the telegraph company or the
> addressees.  The heirs of the signal thief inherited the physical documents.
> But there is no crime involved for the heirs and it is very unlikely that
> anyone could assert a superior claim to the documents.
>
> The contents of the documents, aside from the paper and ink, are intangible
> personal property subject to copyright protection.  The copyright laws of
> the country of origin would be the relevant law.  All copyrights have almost
> certainly expired.  That means that if you keep the documents forever or
> sell them or give them to a museum, there is virtually no possibility of a
> claim by an heir of a copyright holder.
>
.
.
> Relax.  If you are planning to write a history book, go for it.  No
> publisher will balk because of the suspicious origin.

Indeed this is my only intention , I would NEVER sell them or any of
the " papers " passed into my care

They have been many decades awaiting claim , as they really dont fit
into our family archives , but as long term political lefty activists
from the era , they are of considerable interest



>
> This answer must not be relied on as legal advice for the reasons posted
> here:  http://mcgyverdisclaimer.blogspot.com.  And I am not your attorney.
>

thanks  McGyver

Most informative  , you opened up some new ideas , the coppers are
funny people , I wish I had you for legal adviser

Im considering simply carrying on ,  and then challenging anybody who
wants to make a claim , then deal with it

I do assume others would also have copies , Id be surprised if every
repeater station made copies and Governments got copies even if they
deny it ,

There is nil really personal info , after all many people read every
telegram that were sent and typed and delivered  by people all along
the line , so the contents are not that sensational ,most interesting
are the timing and persons sending and receiving when viewed
historically and matched with newspapers of the day , when if using
the telegrams and newspapers its hardly defamation even if its
offensive to have truth revealed ,

Granted some  people may still be alive and privacy  laws may be
needed to be checked, most published material that Im thinking of
would be from a political/ historic POV , not of  a personal nature as
most private peoples telegrams are only births deaths and marriages ,
and these are mostly rich people who would mostly put the info in
newspapers anyway

thanks McGyver , for your thoughtful insights

Im starting to think  of keeping them , but dont trust the government
enough to hand them over , I know that there will be  much they would
rather not be known , but they wont jail me for having stolen stuff
for over 70 years  , before i was even  born , when white men stole my
land and wont give it back

kangarooistan
=============
Grandpa was born at Beltana , worked from Marree and retired to Port
Augusta
.
Repeater Stations

As many as eleven repeater stations were built along the Overland
Telegraph Line between Port Augusta and Darwin which was completed in
August 1872. Using the morse key, operators at the stations were able
to communicate with the world 24 hours a day. In 1872 it took seven
hours to send a message from Adelaide to England. By tapping the morse
key an operator would disrupt the flow of electricity. A short break
resulted in a dot whereas a longer break gave a dash. Some of the best
known telegraph stations were at Beltana, Alice Springs, Barrow Creek,
and Tennant Creek. Almost all became a haven for travellers, a post
office and ration depot for Aboriginal people.
http://www.southaustralianhistory.com.au/repeaterstations.htm

On Oct 15, 6:54 am, peterwn  wrote:
> On Oct 14, 12:09 pm, "McGyver"  wrote:
>
>
>
> > "kangarooistan8"  wrote in message
>
> >news:99ec3be3-b682-4de8-a10f-49f431d59764@e2g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > Hi , I was willed in writing in my mothers will  , all her personal
> > > papers , as she and I knew this included the family archives from her
> > > father and grandfather , we agreed  verbally they  would not be sold
> > > and that is my intentions  , Im confident I and my mother were legally
> > > the owners and I have no intention of selling them but the contents of
> > > telegrams is of possible interest and possible value to historians and
> > > publishers
>
> > > I have read the copyright articles and note a possible problem from
> > > this section , would need to look into it more
> > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyrights#Duration
>
> > > probably some telegrams would contain sensitive official material
> > > from wars in the British empire , which it seems was why they were
> > > collected , although they are not sorted in any way but
> > > sequentially  , and there is no way to prove who originally gathered
> > > them
> > > They were my grandfathers as far as I understood , he  lived near the
> > > overland telegraph , he was not a foreign agent nor a postal worker
> > > with  access ,
> > > .
> > > He may have simply stored them as was his habit ,to look after the
> > > assets of people who vanished or died without relatives in his
> > > district among the  many " Afghans " , he stored personal belongings
> > > until relatives could be located amongst the "Afghan cameleers" , many
> > > who had no family in Australia
> > >http://www.southaustralianhistory.com.au/afghans.htm
>
> > > BUT
>
> > > Who owns telegrams from 1872  to  1930s, that were it seems collected
> > > by an agent of the Otterman Empire , or possibly a USA agent as
> > > grandparents  had close ties with the radical left from all sides ,
> > > most were probably illegal intercepted via the overland telegraph from
> > > England , but  of interest they  carry messages from every country on
> > > earth ,  to and from almost everybody  you could imagine would the
> > > sender have any say about release of contents, some it seems could be
> > > of interest to historians for publication and  damaging to the
> > > reputations of others of that time
>
> > > Its most unlikely anybody living today would have sent a telegram pre
> > > 1930 and most personal telegrams were very basic messages of little
> > > privacy concern , but some are  very interesting  , simply by the
> > > names and dates of the sender and receivers , their frequency and
> > > timing  can  even tell heaps more than the contents when viewed from a
> > > historical POV
>
> > > MY QUESTION
>
> > > Would I be guilty of owning these , if they were very embarrassing to
> > > any government or living person could they claim them or charge me
> > > with something if I use / sell copies / or publish the contents
>
> > > Its seems there is a complete original  paper , " set "of every
> > > telegram sent and received since 1872 and 1930
>
> > > kangarooistan
> > > ==========
>
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------> > > I assume it was easy to get these in the long  telegraph line to
> > > England and often wonder if the USA was the original people behind the
> > > collection when it started in 1870s and why it stopped in 1930s , the
> > > yanks were and are still active in monitoring most  communications and
> > > Turkey could more easily use many other places, there is most likely
> > > many others who also have copies,  although I know of none in private
> > > collections uncensored by governments of the day
>
> > > Australian Overland Telegraph Line
> > > From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overland_Telegraph
>
> > > The Australian Overland Telegraph Line was a 3200 km telegraph line
> > > that connected Darwin with Port Augusta in South Australia. Completed
> > > in 1872 the Overland Telegraph Line allowed fast communication between
> > > Australia and the rest of the world
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------> > >http://www.southaustralianhistory.com.au/afghans.htm
> > > However in 1866 Stuckey succeeded in bringing out more than a hundred
> > > camels and, as nobody knew how to handle camels, 31 Afghan cameleers
> > > as well.
>
> > > Although these, and later camelmen, came from different ethnic groups
> > > and from vastly different places such as Baluchistan, Kashmir, Sind,
> > > Rajastan, Egypt, Persia, Turkey and Punjab, they were collectively
> > > known as Afghans.
>
> > > In early 1870 the Afghans went on strike and most left Beltana and
> > > moved to Blinman. In 1873 Mahomet Saleh, an Afghan cameleer, left
> > > Beltana for Western Australia with explorer P.E. Warburton. William
> > > Christie Gosse was assisted by three Afghans in his attempt to find a
> > > way from the Finke River to Perth. Two years later he assisted Ernest
> > > Giles on one of his expeditions. J.W. Lewis, surveying the country
> > > north east of Lake Eyre in 1874 and 1875 used camels. Later Thomas
> > > Elder's teams carried desperately needed supplies for the starving
> > > diggers at Milparinka.
>
> > > One early arrival was Haji Mulla Merban from Kandahar, Afghanistan. He
> > > came to Port Darwin and acted as leader among the Afghan camel
> > > drivers working for the Overland Telegraph Line. After a three year
> > > visit to India and Afghanistan he eventually settled in Adelaide. He
> > > married a European woman and acted as a peace maker
>
> > It is impossible to be sure without knowing all of the details, but I'll
> > apply some general rules to speculated details and see where it leads.
>
.
.
> > If you don't know that the materials were stolen property, then you are not
> > guilty of possession of stolen property.
>
.
.
> Agreed.  But copying them, passing them to others or divulgng their
> content would be offences under telecommunications laws that protect
> secrecy of communications.  This a quite serious offence with a jail
> term being possible.
.
.
>
> > Suspicion about the origin is not
> > enough.  If all you want to do with the documents is keep them forever, then
> > you are free to do that until someone proves a superior claim or proves that
> > the property is stolen.  If such a claim wins, you would lose some of the
> > documents, but no crime would be involved.
>
.
.
> The level of proof required may not be very high at all.  In this case
> the documents pretty well speak for themselves, they are the property
> of the Goverment, there was no lawful mechanism that they would have
> been given to others.  If the Australian Federal Government demanded
> their return that would be that - they would almost certainly win.
> That they contain information covered by telecommunications secrecy
> laws would further strengthen any demand for their return.
>
..
.
>
>
> > If you intend to give them to a museum, you are free to do that.  The museum
> > would take over responsibility for defending them from claims.
>
> > If the physical documents were in the possession of the telegraph company
> > and then stolen before being delivered to the recipients, then they are
> > possibly now owned by the successor in interest of the telegraph company.
> > But that is not a sure thing.  The successor might have acquired "certain
> > assets" rather than "all assets."  And the successor might have bought
> > listed assets in a foreclosure sale or sheriff's sale, in which case these
> > documents would not have been included.  There might be no plaintiff in
> > existence who could assert any claim superior to your own.
>
.
.
> But some of the documents date until the 1930's so it is almost
> certain that they were belonged to the Postmaster General or the
> Overseas Telecommunications Commission and hence there would be no
> reason why anyone else could claim or have lawful possession.  As I
> previously mentioned telecommunictions secrecy laws also come into
> play.  Remember too that the Adelaide - Darwin Overland Telegraph was
> always Government owned, so the ownership of any 'intermediate'
> telegrams at Alice Springs and other stations would be beyond doubt.
> It was originally built by the South Australian Government (when
> Northern Territory was part of South Australia) and later passed to
> the Federal Government and was operational up to the 1940's.  The
> construction of long haul telephone lines would have spelt the nd of a
> dedicated telegraph line - remmants of the telephone line and
> telephone repeater station exists at Newcastle Waters and no doubt
> elsewhere.
.
.
you make a very good point Peterwn

I know of a case where 3 pages  a4 photo copies , worth 30
cents, ;copies;  of  commonwealth papers  ,cost the holder 6 months
jail , not the theft of 30 cents as it was only the words not the
paper that was stolen , the originals were still there , and the
copies were copies of copies, not the originals  ,

 the person was found guilty of "theft of commonwealth property "
larceny / even the courts admitted it was 3 copies on a4 paper ,   did
6 months jail , 5 months of which was while awaiting trial in maximum
security prison , they dont want the public knowing what they are
really doing and jump on anybody who threatens to expose their crimes
to the public ,

Wonder about the pentagon papers , were clearly government property
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers
similar but not  much use in Australian law until tested in courts
and they were current government papers, not 80plus  year old
telegrams

 I see many doco type programs ,that openly use all manner of personal
letters and photos and diaries and even grave goods or official papers
from the past ,at times ancient, at times from WW1 , or depression
era ,  that at the time were officially government or private , but
are openly used without fear or question or privacy concerns , even
Australians today seem OK about publishing their " convict " ancestors
history , PRIVACY when does it become history , after their
death  ????? when do copies of government documents become public

Seems at some stage the law seems to not apply ,some  diaries and
photos from WW1 were officially illegal at the time they were made ,
why are these different , photos of telegrams may be legal but typed
copies not legal ??????
.
.
.
===============================================================
Question

Once they are out in the public domain the matter is finished IMHO

Perhaps thats the way to deal with it , before the courts get
involved
===================================================================
=================================================================
.
.
.

 the telegrams are all in storage in IRAN , for safe keeping and
translation ,and may be many years before they are all translated into
the many languages of the then old British empire . which back then
included many many  countries that were non english speakers

At the time  , 1870 to 1930 most of  "British empire" did not speak
english,  more by far were Muslims  and not chritians , if you look at
the raw numbers ,   my interest is trying to identify the peoples in
the telegrams many who were Muslim  of non english backgrounds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire
.
  ,for my research , Iran is ideally located,  in the center of the
then "British empire"  by population  and  politically and
linguistically ,  even though the British empire  was run from by and
for England , scholars who wish to study the entire empire not just
the ruling elites , usually only get the white mans  version and
ignore the vast majority of non English peoples completely

Iran has the linguistics scholars   Im interested in tracing  from the
period of empire expansion  most active at the time,  an area mostly
over looked by western scholars ,  the public is often surprised to
know most British subjects were Muslims in 1870s to  1930s ,and most
lived in the area we now call middle east and Asia with dozens of
languages other than English, its simply maths and geography and
frontier territory where telegrams are valuable rare original historic
research material when  newspapers were all full of official spin
propaganda and deliberate misinformation or lies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:British_Empire_Anachronous_8.png

The telegrams wont be back in Australia until they are all translated
into their original senders  languages and can then be studied more
accurately, possibly several more years

Then they will be available to challenge in the courts over
ownership , but it wont matter so much then as copies will have been
made and the legal expense involved would be of no value to anybody to
bother with ,as they will be all over 80 years old and many similar
cases are to be seen where material has leaked out from that era , why
bother with a bit more of the jig saw , IMHO

There is nothing really personal in them  , they were read by many
people as they were sent and received and delivered , nothing sent by
telegram  could really be that personal or secret


Once they are out in the public domain the matter is finished IMHO

Perhaps thats the way to deal with it , before the courts get
involved

no way am I going to "bury them"

kangarooistan
=============
-------------------------------------------------------------------

===============================================================
 REALLY  REALLY OT ,
  but of interest to anybody interested in this subject  IMHO
.
.
 is a program on australian  SBS tv , coming up soon , from the area
in question ,and includes a section about Frank Gillen Post master at
Alice Springs

  a likely/possible  "source" in this topic at the time   ???  frank
gillen [ radical lefty of that time,with close links to teamsters  ],
he was very active keeper of records , but as you say he would not
want to be found with them  , Grandpa was a "teamster" ,and  knew him
well , Frank Gillen is the only person that could have organized the
telegrams from MY research, although there is no evidence except
"opportunity " And " motive " and " benefit " all lead in his
direction , and nobody else gets close in all my inquiries over the
years , this wont matter really for all intents and purposes

Frank Gillen was a very good man  to everybody I knew who spoke of
him , it seems he is disliked by some other people , so its beyond me
to know much  , but his name  keeps bobbing up, its OT

.

the telegraph operator Frank Gillen .
 Gillen's other legacy, is comprehensive
records ???????????????????????????????????????
http://www.abc.net.au/100years/EP4_2.htm
------------------------------------------------
 SBS doco Tuesday 21st October, 2008
#  8:30
First Australians: There is No Other Law
Supported by pastoralists keen to make their
fortune, the homicidal police officer Constable Willshire, brings
mayhem to the Arrernte nation in Central Australia. With the
authorities turning a blind eye, the telegraph operator Frank Gillen
stops him. Gillen's other legacy is comprehensive records of the
Arrernte people's way of life. (Commissioned by SBSi, in

Visit Website
http://www.sbs.com.au/schedule/2008-10-19/

-------------------------------------------------------------

Tuesday 21st October, 2008
#  8:30

First Australians: There is No Other Law
Send to a friend
#

There is No Other Law - Throughout the history of white settlement,
individual white men, good and bad, have significantly affected the
first Australians. Supported by pastoralists keen to make their
fortune, the homicidal police officer Constable Willshire, brings
mayhem to the Arrernte nation in Central Australia. With the
authorities turning a blind eye, the telegraph operator Frank Gillen
stops him. Gillen's other legacy is comprehensive records of the
Arrernte people's way of life. (Commissioned by SBSi, in English) CC
WS
Visit Website
http://www.sbs.com.au/schedule/2008-10-21/
---------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.sbs.com.au/firstaustralians/about

 SBS first australians
About the series

First Australians chronicles the birth of contemporary Australia as
never told before, from the perspective of its first people. First
Australians explores what unfolds when the oldest living culture in
the world is overrun by the world's greatest empire.

Over seven episodes, First Australians depicts the true stories of
individuals - both black and white - caught in an epic drama of
friendship, revenge, loss and victory in Australia's most
transformative period of history.

On Oct 14, 12:09 pm, "McGyver"  wrote:
> "kangarooistan8"  wrote in message
>
> news:99ec3be3-b682-4de8-a10f-49f431d59764@e2g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Hi , I was willed in writing in my mothers will  , all her personal
> > papers , as she and I knew this included the family archives from her
> > father and grandfather , we agreed  verbally they  would not be sold
> > and that is my intentions  , Im confident I and my mother were legally
> > the owners and I have no intention of selling them but the contents of
> > telegrams is of possible interest and possible value to historians and
> > publishers
>
> > I have read the copyright articles and note a possible problem from
> > this section , would need to look into it more
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyrights#Duration
>
> > probably some telegrams would contain sensitive official material
> > from wars in the British empire , which it seems was why they were
> > collected , although they are not sorted in any way but
> > sequentially  , and there is no way to prove who originally gathered
> > them
> > They were my grandfathers as far as I understood , he  lived near the
> > overland telegraph , he was not a foreign agent nor a postal worker
> > with  access ,
> > .
> > He may have simply stored them as was his habit ,to look after the
> > assets of people who vanished or died without relatives in his
> > district among the  many " Afghans " , he stored personal belongings
> > until relatives could be located amongst the "Afghan cameleers" , many
> > who had no family in Australia
> >http://www.southaustralianhistory.com.au/afghans.htm
>
> > BUT
>
> > Who owns telegrams from 1872  to  1930s, that were it seems collected
> > by an agent of the Otterman Empire , or possibly a USA agent as
> > grandparents  had close ties with the radical left from all sides ,
> > most were probably illegal intercepted via the overland telegraph from
> > England , but  of interest they  carry messages from every country on
> > earth ,  to and from almost everybody  you could imagine would the
> > sender have any say about release of contents, some it seems could be
> > of interest to historians for publication and  damaging to the
> > reputations of others of that time
>
> > Its most unlikely anybody living today would have sent a telegram pre
> > 1930 and most personal telegrams were very basic messages of little
> > privacy concern , but some are  very interesting  , simply by the
> > names and dates of the sender and receivers , their frequency and
> > timing  can  even tell heaps more than the contents when viewed from a
> > historical POV
>
> > MY QUESTION
>
> > Would I be guilty of owning these , if they were very embarrassing to
> > any government or living person could they claim them or charge me
> > with something if I use / sell copies / or publish the contents
>
> > Its seems there is a complete original  paper , " set "of every
> > telegram sent and received since 1872 and 1930
>
> > kangarooistan
> > ==========
>
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > I assume it was easy to get these in the long  telegraph line to
> > England and often wonder if the USA was the original people behind the
> > collection when it started in 1870s and why it stopped in 1930s , the
> > yanks were and are still active in monitoring most  communications and
> > Turkey could more easily use many other places, there is most likely
> > many others who also have copies,  although I know of none in private
> > collections uncensored by governments of the day
>
> > Australian Overland Telegraph Line
> > From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overland_Telegraph
>
> > The Australian Overland Telegraph Line was a 3200 km telegraph line
> > that connected Darwin with Port Augusta in South Australia. Completed
> > in 1872 the Overland Telegraph Line allowed fast communication between
> > Australia and the rest of the world
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >http://www.southaustralianhistory.com.au/afghans.htm
> > However in 1866 Stuckey succeeded in bringing out more than a hundred
> > camels and, as nobody knew how to handle camels, 31 Afghan cameleers
> > as well.
>
> > Although these, and later camelmen, came from different ethnic groups
> > and from vastly different places such as Baluchistan, Kashmir, Sind,
> > Rajastan, Egypt, Persia, Turkey and Punjab, they were collectively
> > known as Afghans.
>
> > In early 1870 the Afghans went on strike and most left Beltana and
> > moved to Blinman. In 1873 Mahomet Saleh, an Afghan cameleer, left
> > Beltana for Western Australia with explorer P.E. Warburton. William
> > Christie Gosse was assisted by three Afghans in his attempt to find a
> > way from the Finke River to Perth. Two years later he assisted Ernest
> > Giles on one of his expeditions. J.W. Lewis, surveying the country
> > north east of Lake Eyre in 1874 and 1875 used camels. Later Thomas
> > Elder's teams carried desperately needed supplies for the starving
> > diggers at Milparinka.
>
> > One early arrival was Haji Mulla Merban from Kandahar, Afghanistan. He
> > came to Port Darwin and acted as leader among the Afghan camel
> > drivers working for the Overland Telegraph Line. After a three year
> > visit to India and Afghanistan he eventually settled in Adelaide. He
> > married a European woman and acted as a peace maker
>
> It is impossible to be sure without knowing all of the details, but I'll
> apply some general rules to speculated details and see where it leads.
>
> If you don't know that the materials were stolen property, then you are not
> guilty of possession of stolen property.

Agreed.  But copying them, passing them to others or divulgng their
content would be offences under telecommunications laws that protect
secrecy of communications.  This a quite serious offence with a jail
term being possible.

> Suspicion about the origin is not
> enough.  If all you want to do with the documents is keep them forever, then
> you are free to do that until someone proves a superior claim or proves that
> the property is stolen.  If such a claim wins, you would lose some of the
> documents, but no crime would be involved.

The level of proof required may not be very high at all.  In this case
the documents pretty well speak for themselves, they are the property
of the Goverment, there was no lawful mechanism that they would have
been given to others.  If the Australian Federal Government demanded
their return that would be that - they would almost certainly win.
That they contain information covered by telecommunications secrecy
laws would further strengthen any demand for their return.

>
> If you intend to give them to a museum, you are free to do that.  The museum
> would take over responsibility for defending them from claims.



>
> If the physical documents were in the possession of the telegraph company
> and then stolen before being delivered to the recipients, then they are
> possibly now owned by the successor in interest of the telegraph company.
> But that is not a sure thing.  The successor might have acquired "certain
> assets" rather than "all assets."  And the successor might have bought
> listed assets in a foreclosure sale or sheriff's sale, in which case these
> documents would not have been included.  There might be no plaintiff in
> existence who could assert any claim superior to your own.

But some of the documents date until the 1930's so it is almost
certain that they were belonged to the Postmaster General or the
Overseas Telecommunications Commission and hence there would be no
reason why anyone else could claim or have lawful possession.  As I
previously mentioned telecommunictions secrecy laws also come into
play.  Remember too that the Adelaide - Darwin Overland Telegraph was
always Government owned, so the ownership of any 'intermediate'
telegrams at Alice Springs and other stations would be beyond doubt.
It was originally built by the South Australian Government (when
Northern Territory was part of South Australia) and later passed to
the Federal Government and was operational up to the 1940's.  The
construction of long haul telephone lines would have spelt the nd of a
dedicated telegraph line - remmants of the telephone line and
telephone repeater station exists at Newcastle Waters and no doubt
elsewhere.

"kangarooistan7"  wrote in message 
news:4e2179d1-ceb3-499f-8915-96df768497c3@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 14, 9:09 am, "McGyver"  wrote:
> "kangarooistan8"  wrote in message
.
Repeater Stations

As many as eleven repeater stations were built along the Overland
Telegraph Line between Port Augusta and Darwin which was completed in
August 1872. Using the morse key, operators at the stations were able
to communicate with the world 24 hours a day. In 1872 it took seven
hours to send a message from Adelaide to England. By tapping the morse
key an operator would disrupt the flow of electricity. A short break
resulted in a dot whereas a longer break gave a dash.

---------------

Although I don't dispute that that is what the reference says, it would be a 
very inefficient telegraph that operated in such a manner and the total 
opposite of telegraph systems elsewhere.  It would run the batteries down 
even if the telegraph wasn't being used.  In Early telegraph systems, the 
morse key would *make* an electrical circuit, a short make being a dot and 
longer make being a dash.  Thus electricity would flow (and the batteries 
drained) whenever the telegraph was used, but not otherwise.  I don't think 
I have seen a key with a break contact.

Later telegraph system (and in particular undersea systems where the 
capacitance of the cable was huge) used a positive current to represent a 
dot and a negative current to represent a dash (which handily worked well 
with paper recording systems).