The tenants have changed the locks on my property without my
permission. Now I do not have a key to my own property. I only
discovered this when I went to inspect the property on a pre arranged
visit. I requested the presence of the police to prevent a breach of
the peace. The police officer stated that he has instructed the
tenants to change the locks back. I insisted that they do it there and
then but they said they were going out. The police officer invited me
to leave and I did not wish to argue with him.
Obviously, the tenants have no intention of changing the locks back.
How do I go about rectifying the situation with breaking the law?

The tenants have nor paid any rent for over 4 months, its beyond
belief.

On Oct 10, 11:54 am, hcj...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:

>
> The tenants have nor paid any rent for over 4 months, its beyond
> belief.

Have you issued the required section 21 or 8?

If not did you need info on how to do it?

On Oct 10, 11:54 am, hcj...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
> The tenants have changed the locks on my property without my
> permission. Now I do not have a key to my own property. I only
> discovered this when I went to inspect the property on a pre arranged
> visit. I requested the presence of the police to prevent a breach of
> the peace. The police officer stated that he has instructed the
> tenants to change the locks back. I insisted that they do it there and
> then but they said they were going out. The police officer invited me
> to leave and I did not wish to argue with him.
> Obviously, the tenants have no intention of changing the locks back.
> How do I go about rectifying the situation with breaking the law?
>
> The tenants have nor paid any rent for over 4 months, its beyond
> belief.

If I were you, I would be starting eviction proceedings, The reply you
got here from janemc... suggests she knows what to do and how to do
that but if you want to double up the advice you are getting, can I
suggest that you try the "house buying and renting" board on the forum
at moneysavingexpert.com
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/

On 10 Oct, 12:03, janemc...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
> On Oct 10, 11:54 am, hcj...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
>
>
>
> > The tenants have nor paid any rent for over 4 months, its beyond
> > belief.
>
> Have you issued the required section 21 or 8?
>
> If not did you need info on how to do it?

Accelerated possession proceedings were issued yesterday for the 3rd
time, The first time I ssued in error the DJ suggested I get the help
of a solicitor. The DJ struck out the application made by the
solicitor. Instead of applying to have the order set aside I started
all over again.

The problem is that when the tenants stopped paying rent because I had
to cheek to ask them to ask them to pay the rent they said that I was
harassing them. The rest you know. The went to a solicitor obtained
legal aid, now they are untouchable legally speaking.

I have highlighted the fact that at the time of their Legal Aid
application that they were under investigation for benefit fraud. The
benefits agency have confirmed that they did claim benefits to which
they were not entitled.
Their application was approved. How can they possibly be classed as
truthful and honest witness's.

I want to write to their solicitor and insist that  they complied with
the orders of the police officer and the terms of the tenancy
agreement before 5:00pm tonight. If they do not comply I want to
carryout the work myself. However, I have the legal problem of
trespass. Will this course of action add to their claim that I am
harassing them or am I within my rights to do this. I also wish to
point out that I will be visiting the property unannounced to check
that they have not changed the locks back. I am within my rights to do
this?

wrote in message 
news:53cadb23-04c8-4bb9-8716-71070aec8b6e@p10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> The tenants have changed the locks on my property without my
> permission. Now I do not have a key to my own property. I only
> discovered this when I went to inspect the property on a pre arranged
> visit. I requested the presence of the police to prevent a breach of
> the peace. The police officer stated that he has instructed the
> tenants to change the locks back. I insisted that they do it there and
> then but they said they were going out. The police officer invited me
> to leave and I did not wish to argue with him.
> Obviously, the tenants have no intention of changing the locks back.
> How do I go about rectifying the situation with breaking the law?
>
> The tenants have nor paid any rent for over 4 months, its beyond
> belief.
>

The rent arrears is irrelevant though, granted, is a problem in itself.  As 
tenants they are entitled to exclusive occupation of the property (that's 
what a tenancy is).  You have no right of entry except by invitation of the 
tennants (in which case you become a licensee and that licence can be 
revoked at any time and you can be asked to leave - but this may be modified 
to a limited extent by the tennancy agreement).  It's a good job you didn't 
break in because you would then have been liable to arrest for burglary 
(plod may take an interest if they sense an easy conviction but not 
otherwise).  In any case it very is unwise for a landlord to enter tenanted 
property uninvited using his own key because he renders himself liable to 
allegations of theft if (say) £500 in cash were to mysteriously 'go missing' 
especially if rent is owed (you don't have the right to help yourself to 
money left lying around against owed rent).

AIUI, tennants (as opposed to licencees) are fully entitled to change the 
locks to protect their exclusive occupancy.  The police officer has no 
authority to instruct the tennants to change the locks and neither do you. 
You may not like the position, and I'm not saying its just, but that is the 
way it is.

On Oct 10, 12:36 pm, hcj...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
> On 10 Oct, 12:03, janemc...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
>
> > On Oct 10, 11:54 am, hcj...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
>
> > > The tenants have nor paid any rent for over 4 months, its beyond
> > > belief.
>
> > Have you issued the required section 21 or 8?
>
> > If not did you need info on how to do it?
>
> Accelerated possession proceedings were issued yesterday for the 3rd
> time, The first time I ssued in error the DJ suggested I get the help
> of a solicitor. The DJ struck out the application made by the
> solicitor. Instead of applying to have the order set aside I started
> all over again.
>
> The problem is that when the tenants stopped paying rent because I had
> to cheek to ask them to ask them to pay the rent they said that I was
> harassing them. The rest you know. The went to a solicitor obtained
> legal aid, now they are untouchable legally speaking.
>
> I have highlighted the fact that at the time of their Legal Aid
> application that they were under investigation for benefit fraud. The
> benefits agency have confirmed that they did claim benefits to which
> they were not entitled.
> Their application was approved. How can they possibly be classed as
> truthful and honest witness's.
>
> I want to write to their solicitor and insist that  they complied with
> the orders of the police officer and the terms of the tenancy
> agreement before 5:00pm tonight. If they do not comply I want to
> carryout the work myself. However, I have the legal problem of
> trespass. Will this course of action add to their claim that I am
> harassing them or am I within my rights to do this. I also wish to
> point out that I will be visiting the property unannounced to check
> that they have not changed the locks back. I am within my rights to do
> this?

Sounds like it is time you employed a good solicitor and spent some
proper money on getting them out. Not an amateur fly by night
solicitor.

On Oct 10, 12:36 pm, hcj...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
> On 10 Oct, 12:03, janemc...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
>
> > On Oct 10, 11:54 am, hcj...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
>
> > > The tenants have nor paid any rent for over 4 months, its beyond
> > > belief.
>
> > Have you issued the required section 21 or 8?
>
> > If not did you need info on how to do it?
>
> Accelerated possession proceedings were issued yesterday for the 3rd
> time, The first time I ssued in error the DJ suggested I get the help
> of a solicitor. The DJ struck out the application made by the
> solicitor. Instead of applying to have the order set aside I started
> all over again.
>
> The problem is that when the tenants stopped paying rent because I had
> to cheek to ask them to ask them to pay the rent they said that I was
> harassing them. The rest you know. The went to a solicitor obtained
> legal aid, now they are untouchable legally speaking.
>
> I have highlighted the fact that at the time of their Legal Aid
> application that they were under investigation for benefit fraud. The
> benefits agency have confirmed that they did claim benefits to which
> they were not entitled.
> Their application was approved. How can they possibly be classed as
> truthful and honest witness's.
>
> I want to write to their solicitor and insist that  they complied with
> the orders of the police officer and the terms of the tenancy
> agreement before 5:00pm tonight. If they do not comply I want to
> carryout the work myself. However, I have the legal problem of
> trespass. Will this course of action add to their claim that I am
> harassing them or am I within my rights to do this. I also wish to
> point out that I will be visiting the property unannounced to check
> that they have not changed the locks back. I am within my rights to do
> this?

Oh, and if I were you, I would hold back before phoning up with
demands about the locks.  If I were you, I would ignore the locks and
concentrate on getting them out.

> The rent arrears is irrelevant though, granted, is a problem in itself. 
> As tenants they are entitled to exclusive occupation of the property 
> (that's what a tenancy is).  You have no right of entry except by 
> invitation of the tennants (in which case you become a licensee and that 
> licence can be revoked at any time and you can be asked to leave - but 
> this may be modified to a limited extent by the tennancy agreement).  It's 
> a good job you didn't break in because you would then have been liable to 
> arrest for burglary (plod may take an interest if they sense an easy 
> conviction but not otherwise).  In any case it very is unwise for a 
> landlord to enter tenanted property uninvited using his own key because he 
> renders himself liable to allegations of theft if (say) £500 in cash were 
> to mysteriously 'go missing' especially if rent is owed (you don't have 
> the right to help yourself to money left lying around against owed rent).
>
> AIUI, tennants (as opposed to licencees) are fully entitled to change the 
> locks to protect their exclusive occupancy.  The police officer has no 
> authority to instruct the tennants to change the locks and neither do you. 
> You may not like the position, and I'm not saying its just, but that is 
> the way it is.

*note to self: never rent out property*

On 10 Oct, 12:39, "M.I.5¾"  wrote:
>  wrote in message
>
> news:53cadb23-04c8-4bb9-8716-71070aec8b6e@p10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > The tenants have changed the locks on my property without my
> > permission. Now I do not have a key to my own property. I only
> > discovered this when I went to inspect the property on a pre arranged
> > visit. I requested the presence of the police to prevent a breach of
> > the peace. The police officer stated that he has instructed the
> > tenants to change the locks back. I insisted that they do it there and
> > then but they said they were going out. The police officer invited me
> > to leave and I did not wish to argue with him.
> > Obviously, the tenants have no intention of changing the locks back.
> > How do I go about rectifying the situation with breaking the law?
>
> > The tenants have nor paid any rent for over 4 months, its beyond
> > belief.
>
> The rent arrears is irrelevant though, granted, is a problem in itself.  As
> tenants they are entitled to exclusive occupation of the property (that's
> what a tenancy is).  You have no right of entry except by invitation of the
> tennants (in which case you become a licensee and that licence can be
> revoked at any time and you can be asked to leave - but this may be modified
> to a limited extent by the tennancy agreement).  It's a good job you didn't
> break in because you would then have been liable to arrest for burglary
> (plod may take an interest if they sense an easy conviction but not
> otherwise).  In any case it very is unwise for a landlord to enter tenanted
> property uninvited using his own key because he renders himself liable to
> allegations of theft if (say) £500 in cash were to mysteriously 'go missing'
> especially if rent is owed (you don't have the right to help yourself to
> money left lying around against owed rent).
>
> AIUI, tennants (as opposed to licencees) are fully entitled to change the
> locks to protect their exclusive occupancy.  The police officer has no
> authority to instruct the tennants to change the locks and neither do you> You may not like the position, and I'm not saying its just, but that is the
> way it is.


My tenancy agreement states
The Landlord shall be entitled to have and retain keys for all doors
to the property.

hcjnap@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
> How do I go about rectifying the situation with breaking the law?

Take them to court

> 
> The tenants have nor paid any rent for over 4 months, its beyond
> belief.
> 

Not really. If they owe that much rent you can probably get a court 
order for eviction.

Not having keys shouldn't be a major problem, as so long as everything 
is done legally, the inconvienience is more to the tenant than the 
landlord (i.e. if you agree to schedule works they have to be in rather 
than just giving permission to let you in)

If they won't go after the court orders them to, you can get bailiffs to 
  break down the doors and legally drag them out. Until then you can't, 
so not having a key is the least of your worries.

You can also enter in an emergency, such as burst water pipe if they are 
away. They could end up liable for replacement door, cost of locksmith 
etc if you have to break in in an emergency, but the odds of that 
happening are slim.

Realistically:

Changing the locks breaches the tenancy agreement, but almost certainly 
not by enough to get a judge to evict them.

Changing the locks such that you acting completely above the law incur 
extra costs probably makes them liable for those extra costs. Another 
example would be it would be lawful to deduct costs of making good from 
their deposit at the end if they left without replacing your lock.

Not paying rent for 4 months breaches the tenancy agreement sufficiently 
that a judge will have the power (or even the obligation) to evict them.

On Oct 10, 12:56 pm, hcj...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
> On 10 Oct, 12:39, "M.I.5¾"  wrote:
>
>
>
> >  wrote in message
>
> >news:53cadb23-04c8-4bb9-8716-71070aec8b6e@p10g2000prf.googlegroups.com..> > > The tenants have changed the locks on my property without my
> > > permission. Now I do not have a key to my own property. I only
> > > discovered this when I went to inspect the property on a pre arranged
> > > visit. I requested the presence of the police to prevent a breach of
> > > the peace. The police officer stated that he has instructed the
> > > tenants to change the locks back. I insisted that they do it there and
> > > then but they said they were going out. The police officer invited me
> > > to leave and I did not wish to argue with him.
> > > Obviously, the tenants have no intention of changing the locks back.
> > > How do I go about rectifying the situation with breaking the law?
>
> > > The tenants have nor paid any rent for over 4 months, its beyond
> > > belief.
>
> > The rent arrears is irrelevant though, granted, is a problem in itself.  As
> > tenants they are entitled to exclusive occupation of the property (that's
> > what a tenancy is).  You have no right of entry except by invitation of the
> > tennants (in which case you become a licensee and that licence can be
> > revoked at any time and you can be asked to leave - but this may be modified
> > to a limited extent by the tennancy agreement).  It's a good job you didn't
> > break in because you would then have been liable to arrest for burglary
> > (plod may take an interest if they sense an easy conviction but not
> > otherwise).  In any case it very is unwise for a landlord to enter tenanted
> > property uninvited using his own key because he renders himself liable to
> > allegations of theft if (say) £500 in cash were to mysteriously 'go missing'
> > especially if rent is owed (you don't have the right to help yourself to
> > money left lying around against owed rent).
>
> > AIUI, tennants (as opposed to licencees) are fully entitled to change the
> > locks to protect their exclusive occupancy.  The police officer has no
> > authority to instruct the tennants to change the locks and neither do you.
> > You may not like the position, and I'm not saying its just, but that is the
> > way it is.
>
> My tenancy agreement states
> The Landlord shall be entitled to have and retain keys for all doors
> to the property.

In which case ask them for a key, not change the lock.  And if they
refuse add it to the list of reasons for eviction.

"Aidy"  wrote

> *note to self: never rent out property*

Sound advice, no sympathy for those people who 'bought to let' in the 
*certain knowledge* that they would receive regular income AND get the 
capital appreciation from the property.

All gone a bit pear-shaped now eh?

John.

On 10 Oct, 11:54, hcj...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
> The tenants have changed the locks on my property without my
> permission. Now I do not have a key to my own property. I only
> discovered this when I went to inspect the property on a pre arranged
> visit. I requested the presence of the police to prevent a breach of
> the peace. The police officer stated that he has instructed the
> tenants to change the locks back. I insisted that they do it there and
> then but they said they were going out. The police officer invited me
> to leave and I did not wish to argue with him.
> Obviously, the tenants have no intention of changing the locks back.
> How do I go about rectifying the situation with breaking the law?
>
> The tenants have nor paid any rent for over 4 months, its beyond
> belief.

Rent arrears aside, in my opinion you'd have to be a fool to rent a
property off a landlord without changing and controling your own
locks.

On 10 Oct, 13:24, "John Turner" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> "Aidy"  wrote
>
> > *note to self: never rent out property*
>
> Sound advice, no sympathy for those people who 'bought to let' in the
> *certain knowledge* that they would receive regular income AND get the
> capital appreciation from the property.
>
> All gone a bit pear-shaped now eh?
>
> John.

Let me see if I can change your mind.

This tenant has been claimimg housing benefit while he worked and he
got caught and got away with a slap on the wrists. Total family income
if you calculate tax and NI that should have been paid was approx.
£700 per week.
Do you work? When was the last time you took your family on holiday or
bought a new car or bought a brand new laptop or maybe bought a 50" TV
or maybe  a video camera.
How hard do you have to work to have £700 disposable income at the end
of the week?
This tenant thought nothing of taking his family on holiday whilst he
has rent arrears. He has bought a car and a 50" TV.

You don't realise it, but if you are working and paying tax than in
effect your paying for all this, but granted, your contribution to the
scumbags lifestyle is not as great as the Landlords.

Do you think that it is right and proper that somebody who has worked
hard and invested in property should be made to pay for the lifestyle
of these scumbags. When they get caught nobody gives a damn.

Believe it or not he is still in receipt of benefits.

It's not buy to let that has gone pear shaped, its this country thats
gone pear shaped.

Its the culture of benefits and the fact that when they behave in this
manner, they don't consider that it is morally wrong.

Do you?

Don't forget that if the tenant was claiming housing benefit that the 
LANDLORD will have to pay it back. LOL!

hcjnap@hotmail.co.uk wrote:

> Do you think that it is right and proper that somebody who has worked
> hard and invested in property should be made to pay for the lifestyle
> of these scumbags. When they get caught nobody gives a damn.

Most landlords couldn't give a shit for their tenants. So they get 
ripped off sometimes. Tough titties.

wrote in message 
news:53cadb23-04c8-4bb9-8716-71070aec8b6e@p10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> The tenants have changed the locks on my property without my
> permission. Now I do not have a key to my own property. I only
> discovered this when I went to inspect the property on a pre arranged
> visit. I requested the presence of the police to prevent a breach of
> the peace. The police officer stated that he has instructed the
> tenants to change the locks back. I insisted that they do it there and
> then but they said they were going out. The police officer invited me
> to leave and I did not wish to argue with him.
> Obviously, the tenants have no intention of changing the locks back.
> How do I go about rectifying the situation with breaking the law?

In court.

While they are paying rent it is their property.

>
> The tenants have nor paid any rent for over 4 months, its beyond
> belief.
>
>
Well evict them then, but you need a court order.

theodoredice@googlemail.com wrote:
> On 10 Oct, 11:54, hcj...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
>> The tenants have changed the locks on my property without my
>> permission. Now I do not have a key to my own property. I only
>> discovered this when I went to inspect the property on a pre arranged
>> visit. I requested the presence of the police to prevent a breach of
>> the peace. The police officer stated that he has instructed the
>> tenants to change the locks back. I insisted that they do it there and
>> then but they said they were going out. The police officer invited me
>> to leave and I did not wish to argue with him.
>> Obviously, the tenants have no intention of changing the locks back.
>> How do I go about rectifying the situation with breaking the law?
>>
>> The tenants have nor paid any rent for over 4 months, its beyond
>> belief.
> 
> Rent arrears aside, in my opinion you'd have to be a fool to rent a
> property off a landlord without changing and controling your own
> locks.
> 

Some tenants change locks as a way to prevent previous tenants from 
having the ability to easily enter the property and take what they want.

Some tenancy agreements specifically state that locks should not be 
changed without permission but tenants are sometimes advised by local 
welfare rights agencies to change the locks anyway, especially in 
respect of a property that may have had a dubious past history of dodgy 
tenants.

That said, it is good practice for the landlord to have a key as there 
are exceptional circumstances in which a landlord can enter a property 
without notice and without advance permission and if a locksmith is 
needed this is a charge that can be passed on to a tenant.

-- 
Robbie

wrote

> Do you work?

Of course I work, have done for the last 40+ years with just six months out 
of work in that entired time, and yes I hear your point about disposable 
income.

Equally so I never once contemplated buying to let, and despite owning an 
empty flat (over my business) in Hull, which last year during the floods 
would have commanded a rental of £500 per week, it never seriously crossed 
my mind to lease it out.

If you want to play at being a landlord then you should appreciate the 
potential risks.  You also know that what goes up, invariably comes down and 
that applies to property values as well.  I suspect plenty who have 
speculated in property over the past few years have done extremely well, but 
some may now be paying the price.

John.

On 10 Oct, 14:56, "John Turner" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>  wrote
>
> > Do you work?
>
> Of course I work, have done for the last 40 years with just six months out
> of work in that entired time, and yes I hear your point about disposable
> income.
>
> Equally so I never once contemplated buying to let, and despite owning an
> empty flat (over my business) in Hull, which last year during the floods
> would have commanded a rental of £500 per week, it never seriously crossed
> my mind to lease it out.
>
> If you want to play at being a landlord then you should appreciate the
> potential risks.  You also know that what goes up, invariably comes down and
> that applies to property values as well.  I suspect plenty who have
> speculated in property over the past few years have done extremely well, but
> some may now be paying the price.
>
> John.

You did not answer my question.

Its the culture of benefits and the fact that when they behave in
this
manner, they don't consider that it is morally wrong.


Do you?

On 10 Oct, 14:46, Robbie  wrote:
> theodored...@googlemail.com wrote:
> > On 10 Oct, 11:54, hcj...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
> >> The tenants have changed the locks on my property without my
> >> permission. Now I do not have a key to my own property. I only
> >> discovered this when I went to inspect the property on a pre arranged
> >> visit. I requested the presence of the police to prevent a breach of
> >> the peace. The police officer stated that he has instructed the
> >> tenants to change the locks back. I insisted that they do it there and
> >> then but they said they were going out. The police officer invited me
> >> to leave and I did not wish to argue with him.
> >> Obviously, the tenants have no intention of changing the locks back.
> >> How do I go about rectifying the situation with breaking the law?
>
> >> The tenants have nor paid any rent for over 4 months, its beyond
> >> belief.
>
> > Rent arrears aside, in my opinion you'd have to be a fool to rent a
> > property off a landlord without changing and controling your own
> > locks.
>
> Some tenants change locks as a way to prevent previous tenants from
> having the ability to easily enter the property and take what they want.

Exactly, and I would never rely on a landlord to do that for me. I've
always
made sure I'm the only one with a key.


>
> Some tenancy agreements specifically state that locks should not be
> changed without permission but tenants are sometimes advised by local
> welfare rights agencies to change the locks anyway, especially in
> respect of a property that may have had a dubious past history of dodgy
> tenants.

I would certainly never agree to such a tenacy agreement, or would
also just
change the locks anyway.

>
> That said, it is good practice for the landlord to have a key as there
> are exceptional circumstances in which a landlord can enter a property
> without notice and without advance permission and if a locksmith is
> needed this is a charge that can be passed on to a tenant.

Well I think they're so exceptional that I would take the risk.

I'm sure most landlords are trustworthy, but personally he isn't
getting
in the property without asking permission or getting a court order
while he's
getting money off me.,

On Oct 10, 2:16 pm, Iggly Doodah  wrote:
> Don't forget that if the tenant was claiming housing benefit that the
> LANDLORD will have to pay it back. LOL!

Not if the cheques were made payable to the tennant.

On 10 Oct, 14:19, "R. Mark Clayton" 
wrote:

>
> > The tenants have nor paid any rent for over 4 months, its beyond
> > belief.
>
> Well evict them then, but you need a court order.

And for goodness sake get a decent solicitor. You should have served a
section 8 notice alleging grounds 8, 10, 11 and probably (from what
you say) 12 giving 2 weeks notice of an intention to commence
proceedings - potentially faster than waiting for a s.21 to expire,
though from what you say you've done that already and its just that
your solicitor muffed the accelerated procedure (and ought probably to
be reducing their fees accordingly - most good ones will in those
circumstances).

If you really need to get in, you may well have a right to do so and
could (potentially) get a court order, but you'd have to have a good
reason to do so.

Francis

On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 at 04:51:26, freepo  wrote in 
uk.legal :
>>
>> I want to write to their solicitor and insist that  they complied with
>> the orders of the police officer and the terms of the tenancy
>> agreement before 5:00pm tonight. If they do not comply I want to
>> carryout the work myself. However, I have the legal problem of
>> trespass. Will this course of action add to their claim that I am
>> harassing them or am I within my rights to do this. I also wish to
>> point out that I will be visiting the property unannounced to check
>> that they have not changed the locks back. I am within my rights to do
>> this?
>
>Sounds like it is time you employed a good solicitor and spent some
>proper money on getting them out. Not an amateur fly by night
>solicitor.

Or maybe pay a gang of thugs to 'persuade' them to co-operate? :)
-- 
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham

John Turner <nospam@nospam.invalid> posted
>
>"Aidy"  wrote
>
>> *note to self: never rent out property*
>
>Sound advice, no sympathy for those people who 'bought to let' in the
>*certain knowledge* that they would receive regular income AND get the
>capital appreciation from the property.
>

What exactly is immoral about letting out private property? If nobody 
did it, there wouldn't be any flats to rent and millions of people 
wouldn't have anywhere to live.

-- 
Les
"See, he admits he doesn't know the law, and yet he claims he's innocent! You
can't reason with a man like that."

In message <48ef3a9a$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net>, M.I.5¾ 
 writes
>
>AIUI, tennants (as opposed to licencees) are fully entitled to change 
>the locks to protect their exclusive occupancy.  The police officer has 
>no authority to instruct the tennants to change the locks and neither 
>do you. You may not like the position, and I'm not saying its just, but 
>that is the way it is.

Exactly right. My main thought from the OP was to wonder why the police 
officer was advising him to commit criminal damage and possible 
burglary.

I am also concerned that if the OP has acted in the past in a similar 
fashion to that suggested by the police officer, the tenants may well 
have valid grounds for their harassment claim.
-- 
Richard Miller

wrote

> You did not answer my question.
>
> Its the culture of benefits and the fact that when they behave in this 
> manner, they don't consider that it is morally wrong.
>
> Do you?

Me?  I think they're arse-wipes, which is why I would never consider 
entering the 'buy to let' market or rent out any property I owned.

John.

On 10 Oct, 18:40, Big Les Wade  wrote:
> John Turner <nos...@nospam.invalid> posted
>
>
>
> >"Aidy"  wrote
>
> >> *note to self: never rent out property*
>
> >Sound advice, no sympathy for those people who 'bought to let' in the
> >*certain knowledge* that they would receive regular income AND get the
> >capital appreciation from the property.
>
> What exactly is immoral about letting out private property? If nobody
> did it, there wouldn't be any flats to rent and millions of people
> wouldn't have anywhere to live.

Or property would be so cheap everyone could afford one.

"Big Les Wade"  wrote

>
> What exactly is immoral about letting out private property? If nobody did 
> it, there wouldn't be any flats to rent and millions of people wouldn't 
> have anywhere to live.

I didn't say there was anything immoral about it, I simply said I wouldn't 
do it, and I'd no sympathy for those that did.

The 'buy to let' market along with other 'sub-prime' lending is the root 
cause of over-inflated house prices and is the primary reason for the 
current global economic chaos.

John.

John Turner <nospam@nospam.invalid> posted
>
>"Big Les Wade"  wrote
>
>>
>> What exactly is immoral about letting out private property? If nobody did
>> it, there wouldn't be any flats to rent and millions of people wouldn't
>> have anywhere to live.
>
>I didn't say there was anything immoral about it, I simply said I wouldn't
>do it, and I'd no sympathy for those that did.

You didn't use the word "immoral" but your remarks clearly meant "They 
did wrong and now they have got their deserts." They could not have 
meant anything else.

>The 'buy to let' market along with other 'sub-prime' lending is the root
>cause of over-inflated house prices and is the primary reason for the
>current global economic chaos.

Double nonsense. The cause of over-inflated house prices was the banks' 
willingness to lend large sums on unreliable security, particularly 
inflated house prices.

-- 
Les

"Big Les Wade"  wrote

> Double nonsense. The cause of over-inflated house prices was the banks' 
> willingness to lend large sums on unreliable security, particularly 
> inflated house prices.

That's basically what I said.

John.

John Turner wrote:
> "Big Les Wade"  wrote
> 
>> What exactly is immoral about letting out private property? If nobody did 
>> it, there wouldn't be any flats to rent and millions of people wouldn't 
>> have anywhere to live.
> 
> I didn't say there was anything immoral about it, I simply said I wouldn't 
> do it, and I'd no sympathy for those that did.
> 
> The 'buy to let' market along with other 'sub-prime' lending is the root 
> cause of over-inflated house prices and is the primary reason for the 
> current global economic chaos.
> 
> John. 
> 
> 

Please provide proof of your theory. Has it not occurred to you that 
sleight of hand by our politicians have made certain groups scapegoats 
for the whole economic debâcle in order to distract attention from their 
own excessive incompetence and greed?

-- 
Moving things in still pictures!

"®i©ardo"  wrote

> Please provide proof of your theory. Has it not occurred to you that 
> sleight of hand by our politicians have made certain groups scapegoats for 
> the whole economic debâcle in order to distract attention from their own 
> excessive incompetence and greed?

I wouldn't dispute what you say about the greed and incompetence of our 
politicians - a more lightweight group I've never experience in my life, but 
to blame them for all of the ills of the current economic catastrophe is 
silly.  None of them have forced the banks to pay collossal bonuses to staff 
for selling high-risk products in a market which traditionally has been the 
home of prudence and moderation.

If you increase demand for any product beyond natural levels then the price 
invariably goes up, and this has happened in the UK housing market for 
certain.  This has been partly fuelled by over-lending to people who 
couldn't possibly afford the repayments (sub-prime lending) and to others 
buying to rent in an already over-buoyant market.  There have been warnings 
around for at least the last five years that the housing market had become 
over-inflated, and yet the belief that prices must continue to increase 
(because they always have traditionally) was unquestionably accepted by 
lenders and borrowers alike.

The eventual result is that the over-inflated housing market starts to 
stutter because first time buyers can't get on the housing ladder, and this 
finally stalls sales further up the housing chain.  That coupled with 
increasing numbers of borrowers (mainly from both the sub-prime and 
buy-to-let markets) defaulting have at least been part of the catalyst for 
initially faltering (and then collapsing) confidence in the financial 
sector.  Banking and other financial institutions have always traded on 
confidence and trust, and when there are clear signs that the sector 
no-longer trusts itself then chaos is inevitable.

Proof I cannot give you - any analysis of the current chaos is one of 
personal opinion, and that's all I'm offering.  All I can say is I've been 
predicting for some years that a major realignment of house prices here in 
the UK was inevitable.  What I suspect no-one really appreciated was the 
level of incompetent lending by major (get-quick-rich) financial 
institutions around the world, and now we're all having to bail them out.

John.

David AG wrote:
> You can also enter in an emergency, such as burst water pipe if they
> are away. They could end up liable for replacement door, cost of
> locksmith etc if you have to break in in an emergency, but the odds
> of that happening are slim.

But if they're away, how do they know there wasn't a real emergency?
You could kick the door in, gain access, and later claim to have repaired a 
burst pipe or two

On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:19:59 GMT, Paul Hyett <pah@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

<snip>

>
>Or maybe pay a gang of thugs to 'persuade' them to co-operate? :)


I was thinking you may need to check that your own insurance covers
the property for fire - just in case anyone torches it in the next
couple of weeks.

John Turner <nospam@nospam.invalid> posted
>The eventual result is that the over-inflated housing market starts to 
>stutter because first time buyers can't get on the housing ladder, and 
>this finally stalls sales further up the housing chain.  That coupled 
>with increasing numbers of borrowers (mainly from both the sub-prime 
>and buy-to-let markets) defaulting have at least been part of the 
>catalyst for initially faltering (and then collapsing) confidence in 
>the financial sector.  Banking and other financial institutions have 
>always traded on confidence and trust, and when there are clear signs 
>that the sector no-longer trusts itself then chaos is inevitable.
>
>Proof I cannot give you - any analysis of the current chaos is one of 
>personal opinion, and that's all I'm offering.  All I can say is I've 
>been predicting for some years that a major realignment of house prices 
>here in the UK was inevitable.  What I suspect no-one really 
>appreciated was the level of incompetent lending by major 
>(get-quick-rich) financial institutions around the world, and now we're 
>all having to bail them out.

I don't think I would disagree with any of that. I would add that it 
wasn't just secured (i.e. mortgage) lending that went out of control, 
but also unsecured lending through credit cards and cash advances. I 
simply could not believe the amount of easy credit the banks offered to 
my children as in recent years they one by one passed the age of 18 , 
even though they had no income and no way of paying it back.

Where I disagree with you is to blame the borrowers (whether 
buy-to-letters or hopeless 18 year olds). They are simply the dupes. 
They know little and understand less about finance. The bankers, who 
knew everything and understood everything, made all this possible.

-- 
Les

wrote in message 
news:9ae5087d-322e-4740-bf4e-133d9a499d5b@g25g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On 10 Oct, 12:39, "M.I.5¾"  wrote:
>  wrote in message
>
> news:53cadb23-04c8-4bb9-8716-71070aec8b6e@p10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > The tenants have changed the locks on my property without my
> > permission. Now I do not have a key to my own property. I only
> > discovered this when I went to inspect the property on a pre arranged
> > visit. I requested the presence of the police to prevent a breach of
> > the peace. The police officer stated that he has instructed the
> > tenants to change the locks back. I insisted that they do it there and
> > then but they said they were going out. The police officer invited me
> > to leave and I did not wish to argue with him.
> > Obviously, the tenants have no intention of changing the locks back.
> > How do I go about rectifying the situation with breaking the law?
>
> > The tenants have nor paid any rent for over 4 months, its beyond
> > belief.
>
> The rent arrears is irrelevant though, granted, is a problem in itself. As
> tenants they are entitled to exclusive occupation of the property (that's
> what a tenancy is). You have no right of entry except by invitation of the
> tennants (in which case you become a licensee and that licence can be
> revoked at any time and you can be asked to leave - but this may be 
> modified
> to a limited extent by the tennancy agreement). It's a good job you didn't
> break in because you would then have been liable to arrest for burglary
> (plod may take an interest if they sense an easy conviction but not
> otherwise). In any case it very is unwise for a landlord to enter tenanted
> property uninvited using his own key because he renders himself liable to
> allegations of theft if (say) £500 in cash were to mysteriously 'go 
> missing'
> especially if rent is owed (you don't have the right to help yourself to
> money left lying around against owed rent).
>
> AIUI, tennants (as opposed to licencees) are fully entitled to change the
> locks to protect their exclusive occupancy. The police officer has no
> authority to instruct the tennants to change the locks and neither do you.
> You may not like the position, and I'm not saying its just, but that is 
> the
> way it is.


My tenancy agreement states
The Landlord shall be entitled to have and retain keys for all doors
to the property.

-------------

Maybe, but they are still entitled to protect their exclusive occupancy. 
Your clause is unenforceable in a tennancy.

"Robbie"  wrote in message 
news:6l94m3Fak8upU1@mid.individual.net...
> theodoredice@googlemail.com wrote:
>> On 10 Oct, 11:54, hcj...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
>>> The tenants have changed the locks on my property without my
>>> permission. Now I do not have a key to my own property. I only
>>> discovered this when I went to inspect the property on a pre arranged
>>> visit. I requested the presence of the police to prevent a breach of
>>> the peace. The police officer stated that he has instructed the
>>> tenants to change the locks back. I insisted that they do it there and
>>> then but they said they were going out. The police officer invited me
>>> to leave and I did not wish to argue with him.
>>> Obviously, the tenants have no intention of changing the locks back.
>>> How do I go about rectifying the situation with breaking the law?
>>>
>>> The tenants have nor paid any rent for over 4 months, its beyond
>>> belief.
>>
>> Rent arrears aside, in my opinion you'd have to be a fool to rent a
>> property off a landlord without changing and controling your own
>> locks.
>>
>
> Some tenants change locks as a way to prevent previous tenants from having 
> the ability to easily enter the property and take what they want.
>

Absolutely.  And some change them to prevent the landlord entering 
uninvited.

> Some tenancy agreements specifically state that locks should not be 
> changed without permission but tenants are sometimes advised by local 
> welfare rights agencies to change the locks anyway, especially in respect 
> of a property that may have had a dubious past history of dodgy tenants.
>

Such a clause is unenforceable as it goes against the fundamental point of a 
tennancy which is to grant exclusive occupation rights.

> That said, it is good practice for the landlord to have a key as there are 
> exceptional circumstances in which a landlord can enter a property without 
> notice and without advance permission and if a locksmith is needed this is 
> a charge that can be passed on to a tenant.
>

I doubt very much that the landlord could pass the charge of a locksmith 
onto the tennant.  It would be a very brave locksmith indeed that provided 
this service.  The one charge that could be passed on is a charge of 
burglary against both the locksmith and the landlord.

On Oct 13, 8:05 am, "M.I.5¾"  wrote:

>
> I doubt very much that the landlord could pass the charge of a locksmith
> onto the tennant.  It would be a very brave locksmith indeed that provided
> this service.  The one charge that could be passed on is a charge of
> burglary against both the locksmith and the landlord

This charge is often passed on to the tenant, certainly if the tenant
does a moonlight disappearing act.

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 08:00:45 +0100, "M.I.5¾"
 wrote:

>
>My tenancy agreement states
>The Landlord shall be entitled to have and retain keys for all doors
>to the property.
>
>-------------
>
>Maybe, but they are still entitled to protect their exclusive occupancy. 
>Your clause is unenforceable in a tennancy.
>
>
>


What does your insurance company think about it?

-- 
http://www.freedeliveryuk.co.uk
http://www.holidayunder100.co.uk

"mogga"  wrote in message 
news:mjv5f4hs21dds5lbkqh8urbc88k40qqeih@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 08:00:45 +0100, "M.I.5¾"
>  wrote:
>
>>
>>My tenancy agreement states
>>The Landlord shall be entitled to have and retain keys for all doors
>>to the property.
>>
>>-------------
>>
>>Maybe, but they are still entitled to protect their exclusive occupancy.
>>Your clause is unenforceable in a tennancy.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> What does your insurance company think about it?
>

Why would my insurance company have an opinion on the subject?

wrote in message 
news:a29972a7-7555-46c5-919a-9ae8f5442e5e@t65g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 13, 8:05 am, "M.I.5¾"  wrote:

>
> I doubt very much that the landlord could pass the charge of a locksmith
> onto the tennant. It would be a very brave locksmith indeed that provided
> this service. The one charge that could be passed on is a charge of
> burglary against both the locksmith and the landlord

This charge is often passed on to the tenant, certainly if the tenant
does a moonlight disappearing act.

-----------------

That would be an entirely different circumstance then.

"M.I.5¾"  wrote

> Why would my insurance company have an opinion on the subject?

Fairly obvious I would have thought - the landlord having a key permits 
unhindered access to the property by someone other than the policyholder.

John.

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:13:47 +0100, "M.I.5¾"
 wrote:

>
>"mogga"  wrote in message 
>news:mjv5f4hs21dds5lbkqh8urbc88k40qqeih@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 08:00:45 +0100, "M.I.5¾"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>My tenancy agreement states
>>>The Landlord shall be entitled to have and retain keys for all doors
>>>to the property.
>>>
>>>-------------
>>>
>>>Maybe, but they are still entitled to protect their exclusive occupancy.
>>>Your clause is unenforceable in a tennancy.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> What does your insurance company think about it?
>>
>
>Why would my insurance company have an opinion on the subject?
>


Ring them and ask.
Seriously. Its good fun.
-- 
http://www.freedeliveryuk.co.uk
http://www.holidayunder100.co.uk

"John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message 
news:PNCdnSd22u9D6m7VnZ2dnUVZ8vidnZ2d@supernews.com...
>
> "M.I.5¾"  wrote
>
>> Why would my insurance company have an opinion on the subject?
>
> Fairly obvious I would have thought - the landlord having a key permits 
> unhindered access to the property by someone other than the policyholder.
>

That may be true.  But you didn't answer the question.

As *my* insurance company have no liability for an unknown property owned by 
an unknown landlord, why would they have an opinion?

"strangebuttrue"  wrote in message 
news:89p1f41r3vmqenssrcv3amkj14892rj6h6@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:19:59 GMT, Paul Hyett <pah@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>
>>Or maybe pay a gang of thugs to 'persuade' them to co-operate? :)
>
>
> I was thinking you may need to check that your own insurance covers
> the property for fire - just in case anyone torches it in the next
> couple of weeks.
>

Easy one.  If the fire is started deliberately then his insurance does not 
cover the fire.

"M.I.5¾"  wrote

> As *my* insurance company have no liability for an unknown property owned 
> by an unknown landlord, why would they have an opinion?

Pedant.

John.

On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 03:54:52 -0700 (PDT), hcjnap@hotmail.co.uk wrote:

>The tenants have changed the locks on my property without my
>permission. Now I do not have a key to my own property. I only
>discovered this when I went to inspect the property on a pre arranged
>visit. I requested the presence of the police to prevent a breach of
>the peace. The police officer stated that he has instructed the
>tenants to change the locks back. I insisted that they do it there and
>then but they said they were going out. The police officer invited me
>to leave and I did not wish to argue with him.
>Obviously, the tenants have no intention of changing the locks back.
>How do I go about rectifying the situation with breaking the law?
>
>The tenants have nor paid any rent for over 4 months, its beyond
>belief.

Spend a few hundred quid on some heavies. Evict them, transport them
to a remote location and bury the evidence.  

Alternatively wait until they are all out of the house, gain entry,
chuck all their stuff out on the street, and brick up on the
entrances. Ignore any phone calls for a few weeks and they'll get the
message. 

Or you could just fuck about for months with the "legal system" and
get even more grief from these scum.  

As one well known landlord said, eliminate the scum tenants from the
equation and the problem goes away - permanently


--