DSR - When are goods made to the customers specification?

Purchase:
Online website lists various aluminium radiators with towel rail style
electric elements screwed in horizontally. One product >£100 was
purchased via Google Checkout & free shipped next day.

Receipt:
Polythene over polstyrene removed in front of courier before signing.
Floor mount brackets as depicted on website NOT evident. Decided to
reject under Distance Selling Regulations. Did not open further, re-
wrapped in rolls of bubble, cardboard & tape.

Emailed:
No reply to emails to company requesting return address. Company
website/dispatch-note/registered address found.

Returned:
Sent recorded letter notice of cancellation under DSR (Fri). Letter
requests they refund less cost of original shipping.
Sent parcel back via Parcelforce with insurance (Fri).

Interestingly the address will not validate under RM.

Emailed & Faxed:
Emailed again. No reply. Faxed letter. No reply.
Emailed again. Read receipt received, no reply.

Terms & Conditions:
No T&C on the website. No mention of any returns procedure.
No T&C provided with the goods either.
Profuse legal contract about "website accessibility".

The online company is supplied & owned by a manufacturer that is owned
by a top company. All at the same address.

No T&C can be found for any except the top company:
"A minimum handling charge of £100 applies." (各?)
"Products that are specialised or modified in any way from standard
are not eligible for return or credit."
"The company will not collect goods from site."

They have a new Ebay shop, but no feedback, no items, no T&C. So I can
not see if they support the DSR until a listing.


My letter & return:
Recorded letter does not show delivery (ok, only Tuesday).
Will be interesting to see if the address does accept documents.


I suspect the online company uses T&C of the TOP company.
- a) deduct £100 from the refund (was £170, free shipping)
- b) claim specialised/modified from standard so no refund

I think b) is less likely because the item *is* as listed.
There are no T&C notifying no return / £100 handling charge.

I will wait to see if any response within 14 days.
I suspect this is going to end in a Small Claims against the online
retailer or the CCC under S75 of the CCA.


Q - what DOES define "made to customers specification"?

DSR Exceptions to the right to cancel:
"S13 c) for the supply of goods made to the consumer's specifications
OR clearly personalised OR which by reason of their nature cannot be
returned OR are liable to deteriorate OR expire rapidly"

Taken literally, with an online retail presence operating at a
manufacturers address it could mean every single product?

Checking with other resellers they advise there is a return fee, but
"can not say if it is 0% or 100% until it happens". Two national
electrical wholesalers will not carry anything they make as "having
been burnt", but would not elaborate.

DSR - When are goods made to the customers specification?

Purchase:
Online website lists various aluminium radiators with towel rail style
electric elements screwed in horizontally. One product >£100 was
purchased via Google Checkout & free shipped next day.

Receipt:
Polythene over polstyrene removed in front of courier before signing.
Floor mount brackets as depicted on website NOT evident. Decided to
reject under Distance Selling Regulations. Did not open further, re-
wrapped in rolls of bubble, cardboard & tape.

Emailed:
No reply to emails to company requesting return address. Company
website/dispatch-note/registered address found.

Returned:
Sent recorded letter notice of cancellation under DSR (Fri). Letter
requests they refund less cost of original shipping.
Sent parcel back via Parcelforce with insurance (Fri).

Interestingly the address will not validate under RM.

Emailed & Faxed:
Emailed again. No reply. Faxed letter. No reply.
Emailed again. Read receipt received, no reply.

Terms & Conditions:
No T&C on the website. No mention of any returns procedure.
No T&C provided with the goods either.
Profuse legal contract about "website accessibility".

The online company is supplied & owned by a manufacturer that is owned
by a top company. All at the same address.

No T&C can be found for any except the top company:
"A minimum handling charge of £100 applies." (+VAT?)
"Products that are specialised or modified in any way from standard
are not eligible for return or credit."
"The company will not collect goods from site."

They have a new Ebay shop, but no feedback, no items, no T&C. So I can
not see if they support the DSR until a listing.


My letter & return:
Recorded letter does not show delivery (ok, only Tuesday).
Will be interesting to see if the address does accept documents.


I suspect the online company uses T&C of the TOP company.
- a) deduct £100 from the refund (was £170, free shipping)
- b) claim specialised/modified from standard so no refund

I think b) is less likely because the item *is* as listed.
There are no T&C notifying no return / £100 handling charge.

I will wait to see if any response within 14 days.
I suspect this is going to end in a Small Claims against the online
retailer or the CCC under S75 of the CCA.


Q - what DOES define "made to customers specification"?

DSR Exceptions to the right to cancel:
"S13 c) for the supply of goods made to the consumer's specifications
OR clearly personalised OR which by reason of their nature cannot be
returned OR are liable to deteriorate OR expire rapidly"

Taken literally, with an online retail presence operating at a
manufacturers address it could mean every single product?

Checking with other resellers they advise there is a return fee, but
"can not say if it is 0% or 100% until it happens". Two national
electrical wholesalers will not carry anything they make as "having
been burnt", but would not elaborate.

If the goods were just from the catalogue/website and were not specially 
modified then the DSR rejection rights apply alwaysa ssuming it was a 
business to consumer transaction. You will just have to keep pressing them.

Peter Crosland

On 30 Sep, 14:18, "Peter Crosland"  wrote:
> If the goods were just from the catalogue/website and were not specially
> modified then the DSR rejection rights apply alwaysa ssuming it was a
> business to consumer transaction. You will just have to keep pressing them.

Thanks, yes b2c - tiny (250W) domestic radiator for home.

I will send the fax again but via recorded letter (so can demonstrate
2 attempts).
Then give a few more days for the parcel to arrive.

Then telephone - if no joy then which is best?
a) Small Claims
b) Nag the CCC to do a rejection/reversal/whatever

I suspect doing a) is better because if I do b) surely the supplier
just sues me?

>> If the goods were just from the catalogue/website and were not specially
>> modified then the DSR rejection rights apply alwaysa ssuming it was a
>> business to consumer transaction. You will just have to keep pressing 
>> them.
>
> Thanks, yes b2c - tiny (250W) domestic radiator for home.
>
> I will send the fax again but via recorded letter (so can demonstrate
> 2 attempts).
> Then give a few more days for the parcel to arrive.
>
> Then telephone - if no joy then which is best?
> a) Small Claims
> b) Nag the CCC to do a rejection/reversal/whatever
>
> I suspect doing a) is better because if I do b) surely the supplier
> just sues me?

If you paid by credit card and the total was over £100 then claim from them. 
They will simply charge the company. Much quicker and not problems with 
collecting after getting a court judgement. Often the company will give in. 
In any case report the whole thing to trading standards.

Peter Crosland

js.b1@ntlworld.com wrote:
> DSR - When are goods made to the customers specification?
> 
> Purchase:
> Online website lists various aluminium radiators with towel rail style
> electric elements screwed in horizontally. One product >£100 was
> purchased via Google Checkout & free shipped next day.
> 
> Receipt:
> Polythene over polstyrene removed in front of courier before signing.
> Floor mount brackets as depicted on website NOT evident. Decided to
> reject under Distance Selling Regulations. Did not open further, re-
> wrapped in rolls of bubble, cardboard & tape.

Why DSR and not SOGA? If parts are missing then reject under SOGA and 
they pay for the return postage.

I also noticed you offered to pay for the outward postage, I think 
you'll find it's only the return postage you're in for under DSR and 
they have to stand the outward postage as part of the costs of doing 
business.

Peter Crosland wrote...
> If you paid by credit card and the total was over £100 then claim from them.
> They will simply charge the company. Much quicker and not problems with
> collecting after getting a court judgement. Often the company will give in.
> In any case report the whole thing to trading standards.

Noted, that is indeed much quicker - specifically re collecting.


martin wrote...
> Why DSR and not SOGA? If parts are missing then reject under
> SOGA and they pay for the return postage.

I chose to reject under DSR as most appropriate:
If handed it in a shop I would have handed it right back.

Without fully opening:
The radiator outer surface had an ugly gap from scruffy alignment;
inner surface had continuous ugly huge shards of aluminium; paint was
thin, missing in several areas, badly sprayed. On a low 240mm high x
550mm aluminium radiator such faults are glaringly obvious.

Later that day:
The existing VERY old electrical radiator was found to be 750W, not
500W, as advised by another manufacturer (easy mistake - dimensions
are identical).
Even if the new supplier refinished & repainted it, it would be
undersized.

Quicker to toss it back under DSR, than waste more time.


> I also noticed you offered to pay for the outward postage, I think
> you'll find it's only the return postage you're in for under DSR and
> they have to stand the outward postage as part of the costs of doing
> business.

I know - it was goodwill to get a speedy resolution :-))

Unfortunately they did not reply to any communication.
Today RM tracking shows the letter was signed for today, Tuesday.

Now RM standard parcels are 5 working days, Friday.
If no refund within a week of that, I will boot paperwork to CCC.

"martin"  wrote in message 
news:48e23ac8$0$26089$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk...
> js.b1@ntlworld.com wrote:
>> DSR - When are goods made to the customers specification?
>>
>> Purchase:
>> Online website lists various aluminium radiators with towel rail style
>> electric elements screwed in horizontally. One product >£100 was
>> purchased via Google Checkout & free shipped next day.
>>
>> Receipt:
>> Polythene over polstyrene removed in front of courier before signing.
>> Floor mount brackets as depicted on website NOT evident. Decided to
>> reject under Distance Selling Regulations. Did not open further, re-
>> wrapped in rolls of bubble, cardboard & tape.
>
> Why DSR and not SOGA? If parts are missing then reject under SOGA and they 
> pay for the return postage.

I agree, the OP was entitled to & should have rejected the goods under the 
provisions of SoGA.
There would then also have been no question of him paying a re-stocking fee 
or cancellation charge or whatever they want to call it.

  SoGA provides the unscrupulous seller with far less wriggle-room or 
opportunity for them to produce spurious arguments.

--
Joe Lee

On 30 Sep, 21:09, "Joe Lee" <invalid@noaddress> wrote:
> I agree, the OP was entitled to & should have rejected the goods under the
> provisions of SoGA. There would then also have been no question of him
> paying a re-stocking fee or cancellation charge or whatever they want to call it.
> SoGA provides the unscrupulous seller with far less wriggle-room or
> opportunity for them to produce spurious arguments.

Thanks, much interesting advice.