I have read through numerous pub car park ticket threads on the forums,
however I have a slightly more unusual case here that I was interested
in people's opinions on. 

Basically my girlfriend had an agreement with a previous pub manager
that she could park her car in the pub car park for a small fee every
week, which she paid to the bar on a Sunday night for which she
received a hand written ticket in return to display in her car.
Recently the pub has been refurbished, during which time she parked
elsewhere, but since opening again approx two/three months ago we
visited the new manager who agreed that she could again park there and
wrote out a ticket stating this and signed and dated it. He said at the
time that there was no new system setup, however until the time
something was organised she was ok to park there. She laminated this
ticket and has had it displayed in her car everyday she parked there. 

This week she has received a parking ticket from EFPN in Woking (A PO
Box address - no contact number) issuing a £60 fine. After speaking
with the pub manager who would not accept responsibility he put us in
touch with the landlord who has been extremely unreasonable. His only
input was that she was warned on numerous occasions by notes left on
the car (no such notes have ever been issued, or have been removed
prior to us seeing them and he claims he needs no evidence that this
has taken place). His only other input was that we should write to EFPN
in an attempt to dispute the ticket.

Above any other issue with such parking companies this all seems a
little unreasonable due to the agreement with the manager originally.
Can anyone offer some advice that we can base our dispute letter around
to help bolster the appeal.

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.




-- 
bclark

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:26:53 +0100, bclark
 wrote:
>I have read through numerous pub car park ticket threads on the forums,
>however I have a slightly more unusual case here that I was interested
>in people's opinions on. 
>
>Basically my girlfriend had an agreement with a previous pub manager
>that she could park her car in the pub car park for a small fee every
>week, which she paid to the bar on a Sunday night for which she
>received a hand written ticket in return to display in her car.
>Recently the pub has been refurbished, during which time she parked
>elsewhere, but since opening again approx two/three months ago we
>visited the new manager who agreed that she could again park there and
>wrote out a ticket stating this and signed and dated it. He said at the
>time that there was no new system setup, however until the time
>something was organised she was ok to park there. She laminated this
>ticket and has had it displayed in her car everyday she parked there. 
>
>This week she has received a parking ticket from EFPN in Woking (A PO
>Box address - no contact number) issuing a £60 fine. After speaking
>with the pub manager who would not accept responsibility he put us in
>touch with the landlord who has been extremely unreasonable. His only
>input was that she was warned on numerous occasions by notes left on
>the car (no such notes have ever been issued, or have been removed
>prior to us seeing them and he claims he needs no evidence that this
>has taken place). His only other input was that we should write to EFPN
>in an attempt to dispute the ticket.
>
>Above any other issue with such parking companies this all seems a
>little unreasonable due to the agreement with the manager originally.
>Can anyone offer some advice that we can base our dispute letter around
>to help bolster the appeal.
>
>Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

You don't have to respond at all. All your GF has received is an
unsubstantiated invoice claiming that she has agreed to the terms of
the contract by reading a warning sign and therefore must pay a
"parking charge". Despite the, no doubt, threatening nature of the
demand it does not constitute a fine or penalty. Nor do they have any
claim against the Registered Keeper as they may not have been driving
at the time. Whilst the courts can order a RK to disclose the name of
a driver at the time of an alleged traffic offence the same privelidge
is not granted to a private parking enforcement company. 

There is no legal obligation to pay the invoice unless it is upheld in
the courts and a judgement issued. To date, AFAIK, no such judgement
has ever occured.

If you do feel compelled to write back, I would send a copy of the
ticket and a letter stating that their invoice is not valid and will
not be paid unless your GF is ordered to by the courts. I would also
suggest that any future correspondence or attempts to recover the
alleged debt would be futile, costly to the company and ignored by the
recipient. 

Regards

Tom

Tom wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:26:53 +0100, bclark
>  wrote:
>> I have read through numerous pub car park ticket threads on the forums,
>> however I have a slightly more unusual case here that I was interested
>> in people's opinions on. 
>>
>> Basically my girlfriend had an agreement with a previous pub manager
>> that she could park her car in the pub car park for a small fee every
>> week, which she paid to the bar on a Sunday night for which she
>> received a hand written ticket in return to display in her car.
>> Recently the pub has been refurbished, during which time she parked
>> elsewhere, but since opening again approx two/three months ago we
>> visited the new manager who agreed that she could again park there and
>> wrote out a ticket stating this and signed and dated it. He said at the
>> time that there was no new system setup, however until the time
>> something was organised she was ok to park there. She laminated this
>> ticket and has had it displayed in her car everyday she parked there. 
>>
>> This week she has received a parking ticket from EFPN in Woking (A PO
>> Box address - no contact number) issuing a £60 fine. After speaking
>> with the pub manager who would not accept responsibility he put us in
>> touch with the landlord who has been extremely unreasonable. His only
>> input was that she was warned on numerous occasions by notes left on
>> the car (no such notes have ever been issued, or have been removed
>> prior to us seeing them and he claims he needs no evidence that this
>> has taken place). His only other input was that we should write to EFPN
>> in an attempt to dispute the ticket.
>>
>> Above any other issue with such parking companies this all seems a
>> little unreasonable due to the agreement with the manager originally.
>> Can anyone offer some advice that we can base our dispute letter around
>> to help bolster the appeal.
>>
>> Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> You don't have to respond at all. All your GF has received is an
> unsubstantiated invoice claiming that she has agreed to the terms of
> the contract by reading a warning sign and therefore must pay a
> "parking charge". Despite the, no doubt, threatening nature of the
> demand it does not constitute a fine or penalty. Nor do they have any
> claim against the Registered Keeper as they may not have been driving
> at the time. Whilst the courts can order a RK to disclose the name of
> a driver at the time of an alleged traffic offence the same privelidge
> is not granted to a private parking enforcement company. 
> 
> There is no legal obligation to pay the invoice unless it is upheld in
> the courts and a judgement issued. To date, AFAIK, no such judgement
> has ever occured.
> 
> If you do feel compelled to write back, I would send a copy of the
> ticket and a letter stating that their invoice is not valid and will
> not be paid unless your GF is ordered to by the courts. I would also
> suggest that any future correspondence or attempts to recover the
> alleged debt would be futile, costly to the company and ignored by the
> recipient. 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Tom

Is that the same as telling them to fuck off?

"bclark"  wrote in message 
news:bclark.2cd1ab6@legalbanter.co.uk...
>
> I have read through numerous pub car park ticket threads on the forums,
> however I have a slightly more unusual case here that I was interested
> in people's opinions on.
>
The usual advice, as you've probably discovered, is to ignore them.

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:28:49 +0100, Black Sheep  wrote:

>Tom wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:26:53 +0100, bclark
>>  wrote:
>>> I have read through numerous pub car park ticket threads on the forums,
>>> however I have a slightly more unusual case here that I was interested
>>> in people's opinions on. 
>>>
>>> Basically my girlfriend had an agreement with a previous pub manager
>>> that she could park her car in the pub car park for a small fee every
>>> week, which she paid to the bar on a Sunday night for which she
>>> received a hand written ticket in return to display in her car.
>>> Recently the pub has been refurbished, during which time she parked
>>> elsewhere, but since opening again approx two/three months ago we
>>> visited the new manager who agreed that she could again park there and
>>> wrote out a ticket stating this and signed and dated it. He said at the
>>> time that there was no new system setup, however until the time
>>> something was organised she was ok to park there. She laminated this
>>> ticket and has had it displayed in her car everyday she parked there. 
>>>
>>> This week she has received a parking ticket from EFPN in Woking (A PO
>>> Box address - no contact number) issuing a £60 fine. After speaking
>>> with the pub manager who would not accept responsibility he put us in
>>> touch with the landlord who has been extremely unreasonable. His only
>>> input was that she was warned on numerous occasions by notes left on
>>> the car (no such notes have ever been issued, or have been removed
>>> prior to us seeing them and he claims he needs no evidence that this
>>> has taken place). His only other input was that we should write to EFPN
>>> in an attempt to dispute the ticket.
>>>
>>> Above any other issue with such parking companies this all seems a
>>> little unreasonable due to the agreement with the manager originally.
>>> Can anyone offer some advice that we can base our dispute letter around
>>> to help bolster the appeal.
>>>
>>> Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
>> 
>> You don't have to respond at all. All your GF has received is an
>> unsubstantiated invoice claiming that she has agreed to the terms of
>> the contract by reading a warning sign and therefore must pay a
>> "parking charge". Despite the, no doubt, threatening nature of the
>> demand it does not constitute a fine or penalty. Nor do they have any
>> claim against the Registered Keeper as they may not have been driving
>> at the time. Whilst the courts can order a RK to disclose the name of
>> a driver at the time of an alleged traffic offence the same privelidge
>> is not granted to a private parking enforcement company. 
>> 
>> There is no legal obligation to pay the invoice unless it is upheld in
>> the courts and a judgement issued. To date, AFAIK, no such judgement
>> has ever occured.
>> 
>> If you do feel compelled to write back, I would send a copy of the
>> ticket and a letter stating that their invoice is not valid and will
>> not be paid unless your GF is ordered to by the courts. I would also
>> suggest that any future correspondence or attempts to recover the
>> alleged debt would be futile, costly to the company and ignored by the
>> recipient. 

..and regarded as harrasment, for which they will be reported to the Police. 
 
>> Regards
>> 
>> Tom
>
>Is that the same as telling them to fuck off?

Except you don't even need to waste your time telling them. They will do so eventually by
themselves.

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:26:53 +0100, bclark
 wrote:

<snip>

>
>Above any other issue with such parking companies this all seems a
>little unreasonable due to the agreement with the manager originally.
>Can anyone offer some advice that we can base our dispute letter around
>to help bolster the appeal.
>
>Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Don't bother.

Just ignore the ticket. It has no legal force.

If they try to sue for the money (which they won't), then they would
fail.
-- 
Alex Heney, Global Villager
Meow... SPLAT... Ruff... SPLAT... (Raining cats & dogs)
To reply by email, my address is alexATheneyDOTplusDOTcom

On Jul 24, 12:25 pm, Alex Heney  wrote:

>
> Just ignore the ticket. It has no legal force.
>
> If they try to sue for the money (which they won't), then they would
> fail.

But ...  If you do not pay, and you subsequently park in a lot
controlled by the same company, perhaps they may clamp or tow you
rather than give you another 'ticket'.  And this may even be if you
comply with the rules with respect to the subsequent parking.

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:18:28 GMT, Tom  wrote:

>On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:26:53 +0100, bclark
> wrote:
>>I have read through numerous pub car park ticket threads on the forums,
>>however I have a slightly more unusual case here that I was interested
>>in people's opinions on. 
>>
>>Basically my girlfriend had an agreement with a previous pub manager
>>that she could park her car in the pub car park for a small fee every
>>week, which she paid to the bar on a Sunday night for which she
>>received a hand written ticket in return to display in her car.
>>Recently the pub has been refurbished, during which time she parked
>>elsewhere, but since opening again approx two/three months ago we
>>visited the new manager who agreed that she could again park there and
>>wrote out a ticket stating this and signed and dated it. He said at the
>>time that there was no new system setup, however until the time
>>something was organised she was ok to park there. She laminated this
>>ticket and has had it displayed in her car everyday she parked there. 
>>
>>This week she has received a parking ticket from EFPN in Woking (A PO
>>Box address - no contact number) issuing a £60 fine. After speaking
>>with the pub manager who would not accept responsibility he put us in
>>touch with the landlord who has been extremely unreasonable. His only
>>input was that she was warned on numerous occasions by notes left on
>>the car (no such notes have ever been issued, or have been removed
>>prior to us seeing them and he claims he needs no evidence that this
>>has taken place). His only other input was that we should write to EFPN
>>in an attempt to dispute the ticket.
>>
>>Above any other issue with such parking companies this all seems a
>>little unreasonable due to the agreement with the manager originally.
>>Can anyone offer some advice that we can base our dispute letter around
>>to help bolster the appeal.
>>
>>Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
>
>You don't have to respond at all. All your GF has received is an
>unsubstantiated invoice claiming that she has agreed to the terms of
>the contract by reading a warning sign and therefore must pay a
>"parking charge". Despite the, no doubt, threatening nature of the
>demand it does not constitute a fine or penalty. Nor do they have any
>claim against the Registered Keeper as they may not have been driving
>at the time. Whilst the courts can order a RK to disclose the name of
>a driver at the time of an alleged traffic offence the same privelidge
>is not granted to a private parking enforcement company. 
>
>There is no legal obligation to pay the invoice unless it is upheld in
>the courts and a judgement issued. To date, AFAIK, no such judgement
>has ever occured.
>
>If you do feel compelled to write back, I would send a copy of the
>ticket and a letter stating that their invoice is not valid and will
>not be paid unless your GF is ordered to by the courts. I would also
>suggest that any future correspondence or attempts to recover the
>alleged debt would be futile, costly to the company and ignored by the
>recipient. 
>
>Regards
>
>Tom

Excellent answer and what this newsgroup is all about, a pleasure to
read this response  and the others too.

My faith has been restored in uk.legal ;-)

Dave

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:19:30 -0700 (PDT), peterwn  wrote:

>On Jul 24, 12:25 pm, Alex Heney  wrote:
>
>>
>> Just ignore the ticket. It has no legal force.
>>
>> If they try to sue for the money (which they won't), then they would
>> fail.
>
>But ...  If you do not pay, and you subsequently park in a lot
>controlled by the same company, perhaps they may clamp or tow you
>rather than give you another 'ticket'.  And this may even be if you
>comply with the rules with respect to the subsequent parking.

That would be illegal.

On Jul 24, 8:21 pm, Mike Harrison  wrote:

>
> >But ...  If you do not pay, and you subsequently park in a lot
> >controlled by the same company, perhaps they may clamp or tow you
> >rather than give you another 'ticket'.  And this may even be if you
> >comply with the rules with respect to the subsequent parking.
>
> That would be illegal.

Which aspect?

In any case what is the most practical thing to do if your vehicle is
clamped or towed - go and see a lawyer or just cough up.

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:15:32 -0700 (PDT), peterwn 
wrote:

>On Jul 24, 8:21 pm, Mike Harrison  wrote:
>
>>
>> >But ...  If you do not pay, and you subsequently park in a lot
>> >controlled by the same company, perhaps they may clamp or tow you
>> >rather than give you another 'ticket'.  And this may even be if you
>> >comply with the rules with respect to the subsequent parking.
>>
>> That would be illegal.
>
>Which aspect?
>
>In any case what is the most practical thing to do if your vehicle is
>clamped or towed - go and see a lawyer or just cough up.

If it's *illegally* clamped or towed, go see an angle grinder!

Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:19:30 -0700 (PDT), peterwn
 wrote:

>On Jul 24, 12:25 pm, Alex Heney  wrote:
>
>>
>> Just ignore the ticket. It has no legal force.
>>
>> If they try to sue for the money (which they won't), then they would
>> fail.
>
>But ...  If you do not pay, and you subsequently park in a lot
>controlled by the same company, perhaps they may clamp or tow you
>rather than give you another 'ticket'.  And this may even be if you
>comply with the rules with respect to the subsequent parking.

If they were stupid enough to try that (and I have never heard of any
such thing occurring), they would most certainly be meeting me in
court.

And would probably lose their licence as a result.
-- 
Alex Heney, Global Villager
Do steam rollers really roll steam?
To reply by email, my address is alexATheneyDOTplusDOTcom

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:15:32 -0700 (PDT), peterwn
 wrote:

>On Jul 24, 8:21 pm, Mike Harrison  wrote:
>
>>
>> >But ...  If you do not pay, and you subsequently park in a lot
>> >controlled by the same company, perhaps they may clamp or tow you
>> >rather than give you another 'ticket'.  And this may even be if you
>> >comply with the rules with respect to the subsequent parking.
>>
>> That would be illegal.
>
>Which aspect?
>

The aspect of clamping you for any reason other than that displayed on
the prominent notices there must be.


>In any case what is the most practical thing to do if your vehicle is
>clamped or towed - go and see a lawyer or just cough up.
>

BOTH.

If it is important to you to get your car back now, and you don't have
access to an angle grinder, then cough up, then sue their sorry assess
off for the illegally extracted monies.
-- 
Alex Heney, Global Villager
To be, or not to be, those are the parameters.
To reply by email, my address is alexATheneyDOTplusDOTcom

"peterwn"  wrote in message 
news:5cbb0ccb-621f-4b6a-84dd-51cc4aa2a4a4@z6g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 24, 8:21 pm, Mike Harrison  wrote:
>
>>
>> >But ...  If you do not pay, and you subsequently park in a lot
>> >controlled by the same company, perhaps they may clamp or tow you
>> >rather than give you another 'ticket'.  And this may even be if you
>> >comply with the rules with respect to the subsequent parking.
>>
>> That would be illegal.
>
> Which aspect?

Clamping to recover an earlier fee which they have no legal right to 
collect.

They can only clamp you if you are in an area with appropriate warning signs 
and are actually contravening the rules for the area covered by those signs.

Of course, the fact that you owe them money from a previous infringement may 
make them inclined to clamp quicker in the latter scenario.

tim

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:31:00 +0100, Alex Heney  wrote:

>On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:19:30 -0700 (PDT), peterwn
> wrote:
>
>>On Jul 24, 12:25 pm, Alex Heney  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Just ignore the ticket. It has no legal force.
>>>
>>> If they try to sue for the money (which they won't), then they would
>>> fail.
>>
>>But ...  If you do not pay, and you subsequently park in a lot
>>controlled by the same company, perhaps they may clamp or tow you
>>rather than give you another 'ticket'.  And this may even be if you
>>comply with the rules with respect to the subsequent parking.
>
>If they were stupid enough to try that (and I have never heard of any
>such thing occurring), they would most certainly be meeting me in
>court.


Matthew Brough (Nupark) tried it a while ago... clamped people in their own driveways.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=26102&st=200
Post#219 onwards.

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:35:27 +0100, Alex Heney  wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:15:32 -0700 (PDT), peterwn
> wrote:
>
>>On Jul 24, 8:21 pm, Mike Harrison  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> >But ...  If you do not pay, and you subsequently park in a lot
>>> >controlled by the same company, perhaps they may clamp or tow you
>>> >rather than give you another 'ticket'.  And this may even be if you
>>> >comply with the rules with respect to the subsequent parking.
>>>
>>> That would be illegal.
>>
>>Which aspect?
>>
>
>The aspect of clamping you for any reason other than that displayed on
>the prominent notices there must be.
>
>
>>In any case what is the most practical thing to do if your vehicle is
>>clamped or towed - go and see a lawyer or just cough up.

If you can find them - they often hide behind PO boxes with Royal Mail won't disclose. 
Best to go after the landowner. Harder for them to disappear. 

>BOTH.
>
>If it is important to you to get your car back now, and you don't have
>access to an angle grinder, then cough up, then sue their sorry assess
>off for the illegally extracted monies.

Or pay by card and do a chargeback.

"Mike Harrison"  wrote in message 
news:j2th84dv6lfkbh5p1ulp00nb7m8gf1cbvt@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:35:27 +0100, Alex Heney  wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:15:32 -0700 (PDT), peterwn
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On Jul 24, 8:21 pm, Mike Harrison  wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> >But ...  If you do not pay, and you subsequently park in a lot
>>>> >controlled by the same company, perhaps they may clamp or tow you
>>>> >rather than give you another 'ticket'.  And this may even be if you
>>>> >comply with the rules with respect to the subsequent parking.
>>>>
>>>> That would be illegal.
>>>
>>>Which aspect?
>>>
>>
>>The aspect of clamping you for any reason other than that displayed on
>>the prominent notices there must be.
>>
>>
>>>In any case what is the most practical thing to do if your vehicle is
>>>clamped or towed - go and see a lawyer or just cough up.
>
> If you can find them - they often hide behind PO boxes with Royal Mail 
> won't disclose.

And why would RM not disclose?

They are legally obliged to do so and there's no way they are going to be 
intimidated by a clamping numpty - they may seem nasty when they have their 
clamp on your car (so I hear), but Ronnie and Reggie Cray they are not.

tim

On Jul 24, 9:35 pm, Alex Heney  wrote:
>
> If it is important to you to get your car back now, and you don't have
> access to an angle grinder, then cough up, then sue their sorry assess
> off for the illegally extracted monies.
> --

Now, now Alex, you've been posting here long enough to know the
outcome of any such legal action.

You sue, they don't turn up to defend, you get Judgement in your
favour, they ignore the Judgement....

"Alex Heney"  wrote in message 
news:noph8411pv1dfj2445ia39td24f6t9gfd5@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:15:32 -0700 (PDT), peterwn
>  wrote:
>
>>On Jul 24, 8:21 pm, Mike Harrison  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> >But ...  If you do not pay, and you subsequently park in a lot
>>> >controlled by the same company, perhaps they may clamp or tow you
>>> >rather than give you another 'ticket'.  And this may even be if you
>>> >comply with the rules with respect to the subsequent parking.
>>>
>>> That would be illegal.
>>
>>Which aspect?
>>
>
> The aspect of clamping you for any reason other than that displayed on
> the prominent notices there must be.
>
>
>>In any case what is the most practical thing to do if your vehicle is
>>clamped or towed - go and see a lawyer or just cough up.
>>
>
> BOTH.
>
> If it is important to you to get your car back now, and you don't have
> access to an angle grinder, then cough up, then sue their sorry assess
> off for the illegally extracted monies.
> -- 
Nice theory, but flawed in practice. PPC will *always* 'phoenix' themselves 
when faced with a judgement. All thats going to do is add to your losses

"Mike Harrison"  wrote in message 
news:j2th84dv6lfkbh5p1ulp00nb7m8gf1cbvt@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:35:27 +0100, Alex Heney  wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:15:32 -0700 (PDT), peterwn
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On Jul 24, 8:21 pm, Mike Harrison  wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> >But ...  If you do not pay, and you subsequently park in a lot
>>>> >controlled by the same company, perhaps they may clamp or tow you
>>>> >rather than give you another 'ticket'.  And this may even be if you
>>>> >comply with the rules with respect to the subsequent parking.
>>>>
>>>> That would be illegal.
>>>
>>>Which aspect?
>>>
>>
>>The aspect of clamping you for any reason other than that displayed on
>>the prominent notices there must be.
>>
>>
>>>In any case what is the most practical thing to do if your vehicle is
>>>clamped or towed - go and see a lawyer or just cough up.
>
> If you can find them - they often hide behind PO boxes with Royal Mail 
> won't disclose.
> Best to go after the landowner. Harder for them to disappear.
>
>>BOTH.
>>
>>If it is important to you to get your car back now, and you don't have
>>access to an angle grinder, then cough up, then sue their sorry assess
>>off for the illegally extracted monies.
>
> Or pay by card and do a chargeback.

Hmmmm.... ever wondered why many (most?) PPC's explicitly refuse payment by 
card?

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 23:03:23 +0100, "tim....."  wrote:

>
>"Mike Harrison"  wrote in message 
>news:j2th84dv6lfkbh5p1ulp00nb7m8gf1cbvt@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:35:27 +0100, Alex Heney  wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:15:32 -0700 (PDT), peterwn
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Jul 24, 8:21 pm, Mike Harrison  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >But ...  If you do not pay, and you subsequently park in a lot
>>>>> >controlled by the same company, perhaps they may clamp or tow you
>>>>> >rather than give you another 'ticket'.  And this may even be if you
>>>>> >comply with the rules with respect to the subsequent parking.
>>>>>
>>>>> That would be illegal.
>>>>
>>>>Which aspect?
>>>>
>>>
>>>The aspect of clamping you for any reason other than that displayed on
>>>the prominent notices there must be.
>>>
>>>
>>>>In any case what is the most practical thing to do if your vehicle is
>>>>clamped or towed - go and see a lawyer or just cough up.
>>
>> If you can find them - they often hide behind PO boxes with Royal Mail 
>> won't disclose.
>
>And why would RM not disclose?

"Due to the sensitive nature of this address we are unable to provide infomation" 
Exact quote from RM's PO Box dept.  when I tried  to get  info on a clamper. 

>They are legally obliged to do so 

What law obliges them?

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 22:30:48 +0100, Mike Harrison
 wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:35:27 +0100, Alex Heney  wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:15:32 -0700 (PDT), peterwn
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On Jul 24, 8:21 pm, Mike Harrison  wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> >But ...  If you do not pay, and you subsequently park in a lot
>>>> >controlled by the same company, perhaps they may clamp or tow you
>>>> >rather than give you another 'ticket'.  And this may even be if you
>>>> >comply with the rules with respect to the subsequent parking.
>>>>
>>>> That would be illegal.
>>>
>>>Which aspect?
>>>
>>
>>The aspect of clamping you for any reason other than that displayed on
>>the prominent notices there must be.
>>
>>
>>>In any case what is the most practical thing to do if your vehicle is
>>>clamped or towed - go and see a lawyer or just cough up.
>
>If you can find them - they often hide behind PO boxes with Royal Mail won't disclose. 
>Best to go after the landowner. Harder for them to disappear. 
>

In that case, they are breaking the law.

Any documents they send you MUST by law include the registration
details of the company.

>>BOTH.
>>
>>If it is important to you to get your car back now, and you don't have
>>access to an angle grinder, then cough up, then sue their sorry assess
>>off for the illegally extracted monies.
>
>Or pay by card and do a chargeback. 

You think these scammeres accept cards?
-- 
Alex Heney, Global Villager
The world is a stage, but the play is badly cast.
To reply by email, my address is alexATheneyDOTplusDOTcom

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 23:36:00 -0700 (PDT), "Mad Cliffy's Legs Don't
Work"  wrote:

>On Jul 24, 9:35 pm, Alex Heney  wrote:
>>
>> If it is important to you to get your car back now, and you don't have
>> access to an angle grinder, then cough up, then sue their sorry assess
>> off for the illegally extracted monies.
>> --
>
>Now, now Alex, you've been posting here long enough to know the
>outcome of any such legal action.
>
>You sue, they don't turn up to defend, you get Judgement in your
>favour, they ignore the Judgement....

Then you send in the bailiffs.

If they are legally permitted to clamp *at all* then they must be
registered and licensed, so they *will* have a business address to
which you can send the bailiffs, and they *will* have assets that can
be distrained.
-- 
Alex Heney, Global Villager
Help stamp out, eliminate, and abolish redundancy!
To reply by email, my address is alexATheneyDOTplusDOTcom

On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:15:04 +0100, "nully" <nully@nully.nully> wrote:

>
>"Alex Heney"  wrote in message 
>news:noph8411pv1dfj2445ia39td24f6t9gfd5@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:15:32 -0700 (PDT), peterwn
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>On Jul 24, 8:21 pm, Mike Harrison  wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> >But ...  If you do not pay, and you subsequently park in a lot
>>>> >controlled by the same company, perhaps they may clamp or tow you
>>>> >rather than give you another 'ticket'.  And this may even be if you
>>>> >comply with the rules with respect to the subsequent parking.
>>>>
>>>> That would be illegal.
>>>
>>>Which aspect?
>>>
>>
>> The aspect of clamping you for any reason other than that displayed on
>> the prominent notices there must be.
>>
>>
>>>In any case what is the most practical thing to do if your vehicle is
>>>clamped or towed - go and see a lawyer or just cough up.
>>>
>>
>> BOTH.
>>
>> If it is important to you to get your car back now, and you don't have
>> access to an angle grinder, then cough up, then sue their sorry assess
>> off for the illegally extracted monies.
>> -- 
>Nice theory, but flawed in practice. PPC will *always* 'phoenix' themselves 
>when faced with a judgement. All thats going to do is add to your losses 
>

I doubt very much indeed if they would find that worthwhile, given the
licensing requirements, and given the size of most of these companies.
-- 
Alex Heney, Global Villager
Rubber bands have snappy endings!
To reply by email, my address is alexATheneyDOTplusDOTcom

On Jul 25, 9:42 pm, Alex Heney  wrote:
>
> Then you send in the bailiffs.
>
> If they are legally permitted to clamp *at all* then they must be
> registered and licensed, so they *will* have a business address to
> which you can send the bailiffs, and they *will* have assets that can
> be distrained.
> --

Erm, I'll bet a pound to a penny their "registered address" is a
lockup garage with no assets and a makeshift letterbox where mail is
delivered; somebody pitches up once every couple of days to pick it
up.

There's a certain online mobile phone company that boasts "we operate
out of a purpose built 12,000 sq. ft computer controlled customer
service/call centre and warehousing complex, processing 1000s of
orders every month".

A quick look on Google maps at their Company Registered Address seems
to show a small farmhouse at the end of a dirt track........no assets
there for sure, I'd imagine!

"Mad Cliffy's Legs Don't Work"  writes:

> There's a certain online mobile phone company that boasts "we operate
> out of a purpose built 12,000 sq. ft computer controlled customer
> service/call centre and warehousing complex, processing 1000s of
> orders every month".
>
> A quick look on Google maps at their Company Registered Address seems
> to show a small farmhouse at the end of a dirt track........no assets
> there for sure, I'd imagine!

Do not forget that the registered address need not be (and often is not)
the same as the address from which the company operates.

On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 21:40:56 +0100, Alex Heney  wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 22:30:48 +0100, Mike Harrison
> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:35:27 +0100, Alex Heney  wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:15:32 -0700 (PDT), peterwn
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Jul 24, 8:21 pm, Mike Harrison  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >But ...  If you do not pay, and you subsequently park in a lot
>>>>> >controlled by the same company, perhaps they may clamp or tow you
>>>>> >rather than give you another 'ticket'.  And this may even be if you
>>>>> >comply with the rules with respect to the subsequent parking.
>>>>>
>>>>> That would be illegal.
>>>>
>>>>Which aspect?
>>>>
>>>
>>>The aspect of clamping you for any reason other than that displayed on
>>>the prominent notices there must be.
>>>
>>>
>>>>In any case what is the most practical thing to do if your vehicle is
>>>>clamped or towed - go and see a lawyer or just cough up.
>>
>>If you can find them - they often hide behind PO boxes with Royal Mail won't disclose. 
>>Best to go after the landowner. Harder for them to disappear. 
>>
>
>In that case, they are breaking the law.
>
>Any documents they send you MUST by law include the registration
>details of the company.

But how can you do anything about that in  practice? Police won't be interested & doesn't help in
getting your money back.  
Chances are any  reg address details would be an accommodation address or their accountant. 
Again, no help in getting money out of them.

On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 21:42:56 +0100, Alex Heney  wrote:

>On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 23:36:00 -0700 (PDT), "Mad Cliffy's Legs Don't
>Work"  wrote:
>
>>On Jul 24, 9:35 pm, Alex Heney  wrote:
>>>
>>> If it is important to you to get your car back now, and you don't have
>>> access to an angle grinder, then cough up, then sue their sorry assess
>>> off for the illegally extracted monies.
>>> --
>>
>>Now, now Alex, you've been posting here long enough to know the
>>outcome of any such legal action.
>>
>>You sue, they don't turn up to defend, you get Judgement in your
>>favour, they ignore the Judgement....
>
>Then you send in the bailiffs.
>
>If they are legally permitted to clamp *at all* then they must be
>registered and licensed, so they *will* have a business address to
>which you can send the bailiffs, and they *will* have assets that can
>be distrained.

But how do you get that address?

On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 21:43:55 +0100, Alex Heney  wrote:

>On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:15:04 +0100, "nully" <nully@nully.nully> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Alex Heney"  wrote in message 
>>news:noph8411pv1dfj2445ia39td24f6t9gfd5@4ax.com...
>>> On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:15:32 -0700 (PDT), peterwn
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Jul 24, 8:21 pm, Mike Harrison  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >But ...  If you do not pay, and you subsequently park in a lot
>>>>> >controlled by the same company, perhaps they may clamp or tow you
>>>>> >rather than give you another 'ticket'.  And this may even be if you
>>>>> >comply with the rules with respect to the subsequent parking.
>>>>>
>>>>> That would be illegal.
>>>>
>>>>Which aspect?
>>>>
>>>
>>> The aspect of clamping you for any reason other than that displayed on
>>> the prominent notices there must be.
>>>
>>>
>>>>In any case what is the most practical thing to do if your vehicle is
>>>>clamped or towed - go and see a lawyer or just cough up.
>>>>
>>>
>>> BOTH.
>>>
>>> If it is important to you to get your car back now, and you don't have
>>> access to an angle grinder, then cough up, then sue their sorry assess
>>> off for the illegally extracted monies.
>>> -- 
>>Nice theory, but flawed in practice. PPC will *always* 'phoenix' themselves 
>>when faced with a judgement. All thats going to do is add to your losses 
>>
>
>I doubt very much indeed if they would find that worthwhile, given the
>licensing requirements, and given the size of most of these companies.

Isn't it the individuals that are licensed rather than companies? 
So a licensed individual could phoenix their ltd company wiith no need to re-license.

On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 11:57:20 +0100, Mike Harrison
 wrote:

>On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 21:42:56 +0100, Alex Heney  wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 23:36:00 -0700 (PDT), "Mad Cliffy's Legs Don't
>>Work"  wrote:
>>
>>>On Jul 24, 9:35 pm, Alex Heney  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If it is important to you to get your car back now, and you don't have
>>>> access to an angle grinder, then cough up, then sue their sorry assess
>>>> off for the illegally extracted monies.
>>>> --
>>>
>>>Now, now Alex, you've been posting here long enough to know the
>>>outcome of any such legal action.
>>>
>>>You sue, they don't turn up to defend, you get Judgement in your
>>>favour, they ignore the Judgement....
>>
>>Then you send in the bailiffs.
>>
>>If they are legally permitted to clamp *at all* then they must be
>>registered and licensed, so they *will* have a business address to
>>which you can send the bailiffs, and they *will* have assets that can
>>be distrained.
>
>But how do you get that address?

Ask companies house, if they are illegally not putting it on their
documentation. (Quite apart from company law requiring that they put
the company registered address on, I think that the Licensing laws
require licensed "security" firms to put their trading/operating
address on any documentation too.


If it is one of the very small, *really* shady firms, who really
should not be licensed, then you may have some difficulty.

But if it is a large national company, you would have no difficulty in
getting an *effective* address.
-- 
Alex Heney, Global Villager
Programming is an art form that fights back.
To reply by email, my address is alexATheneyDOTplusDOTcom