I went to an independant  VW garage a few days ago to find out when a
cambelt should be changed. (It was about my daughter's 8yo 65K Leon.)

The answer was between 60-80K or 4 years. Hmm. I don't take issue with the
mileage but where did this stuff about 4 years come from?

Cam belts fail either by the reinforcing cords breaking or for the teeth
rounding off and (possibly) jumping. These are fatigue/wear issues and
nothing whatsoever to do with age. The only thing that ageing can do is
cause the rubber to perish and for the teeth to break off. What, in 4 years?

Either there must be a plausible technical reason or this particular
establishment is trying on a £330 job creation scheme. Is there a plausible
technical reason?

I have suggested my daughter should get the belt changed but there's the
prospect of my mother being persuaded to spend some vast sum on her low
mileage 06 Peugeot next year. (Though if Peugeot don't try and swing this on
owners, then it is absolute confirmation that this VW so-called specialist
is talking out of a rear orifice.)

"DavidR"  wrote in message 
news:7ep45gF2ekh48U1@mid.individual.net...
>I went to an independant  VW garage a few days ago to find out when a
> cambelt should be changed. (It was about my daughter's 8yo 65K Leon.)
>
> The answer was between 60-80K or 4 years. Hmm. I don't take issue with the
> mileage but where did this stuff about 4 years come from?

All manufacturers specify an age or mileage - whichever comes first.

> Cam belts fail either by the reinforcing cords breaking or for the teeth
> rounding off and (possibly) jumping. These are fatigue/wear issues and
> nothing whatsoever to do with age. The only thing that ageing can do is
> cause the rubber to perish and for the teeth to break off. What, in 4 
> years?

Yes. I know people who have had belts changed by age rather than mileage and 
seen noticable wear and cracking on the old one.
>
> Either there must be a plausible technical reason or this particular
> establishment is trying on a £330 job creation scheme. Is there a 
> plausible
> technical reason?

It's your choice - some people will be lucky and have no problems.
Others will.

> I have suggested my daughter should get the belt changed but there's the
> prospect of my mother being persuaded to spend some vast sum on her low
> mileage 06 Peugeot next year. (Though if Peugeot don't try and swing this 
> on
> owners, then it is absolute confirmation that this VW so-called specialist
> is talking out of a rear orifice.)
>
They will do.

-- 
Alex

"I laugh in the face of danger , then I hide until it goes away"

DavidR wrote:
> I went to an independant  VW garage a few days ago to find out when a
> cambelt should be changed. (It was about my daughter's 8yo 65K Leon.)
> 
> The answer was between 60-80K or 4 years. Hmm. I don't take issue with the
> mileage but where did this stuff about 4 years come from?

  Some of the wear will be due to extreme conditions, and unrelated to the 
amount of time spent cruising at a steady 2,500 rpm.

> Cam belts fail either by the reinforcing cords breaking or for the teeth
> rounding off and (possibly) jumping. These are fatigue/wear issues and
> nothing whatsoever to do with age. The only thing that ageing can do is
> cause the rubber to perish and for the teeth to break off. What, in 4 years?

  And crack and turn brittle. Certainly on a 5 yo V belt I just swapped.

> Either there must be a plausible technical reason or this particular
> establishment is trying on a £330 job creation scheme. Is there a plausible
> technical reason?

  It is not just that establishment, the manufacturers have little 
incentive to extend intervals beyond the time the first owner is likely to 
sell the car. What does the belt look like? What is the car's likely future?

DavidR wrote:
> I went to an independant  VW garage a few days ago to find out when a
> cambelt should be changed. (It was about my daughter's 8yo 65K Leon.)
> 
> The answer was between 60-80K or 4 years. Hmm. I don't take issue with the
> mileage but where did this stuff about 4 years come from?
> 
> Cam belts fail either by the reinforcing cords breaking or for the teeth
> rounding off and (possibly) jumping. These are fatigue/wear issues and
> nothing whatsoever to do with age. The only thing that ageing can do is
> cause the rubber to perish and for the teeth to break off. What, in 4 years?
> 
> Either there must be a plausible technical reason or this particular
> establishment is trying on a £330 job creation scheme. Is there a plausible
> technical reason?
> 
> I have suggested my daughter should get the belt changed but there's the
> prospect of my mother being persuaded to spend some vast sum on her low
> mileage 06 Peugeot next year. (Though if Peugeot don't try and swing this on
> owners, then it is absolute confirmation that this VW so-called specialist
> is talking out of a rear orifice.)
> 
> 
> 
The interval you quoted is the manufacturer's reccomendation, so the 
garage is right to quote that to you.

Belts do deteriorate- some years ago I changed on on my (then) 8 year 
old Scirocco at 55k miles, and it was cracked halfway through.

In more recent times I had the belts changed on our Lupo at 38k miles/7 
years as I wasn't willing to risk any longer.

My Leon is 3.5 years old and 30k miles- I will probably have the belt 
changed at 5 years- it won't have reached 60k by then.

DavidR wrote:
> I went to an independant  VW garage a few days ago to find out when a
> cambelt should be changed. (It was about my daughter's 8yo 65K Leon.)
> 
> The answer was between 60-80K or 4 years. Hmm. I don't take issue with the
> mileage but where did this stuff about 4 years come from?
> 
> Cam belts fail either by the reinforcing cords breaking or for the teeth
> rounding off and (possibly) jumping. These are fatigue/wear issues and
> nothing whatsoever to do with age. The only thing that ageing can do is
> cause the rubber to perish and for the teeth to break off. What, in 4 years?
> 
> Either there must be a plausible technical reason or this particular
> establishment is trying on a £330 job creation scheme. Is there a plausible
> technical reason?
> 
> I have suggested my daughter should get the belt changed but there's the
> prospect of my mother being persuaded to spend some vast sum on her low
> mileage 06 Peugeot next year. (Though if Peugeot don't try and swing this on
> owners, then it is absolute confirmation that this VW so-called specialist
> is talking out of a rear orifice.)

I had a belt snap on a Capri I owned. The belt had only done 5000 miles, 
but it was 10 years old.


-- 
Pete M - OMF#9

'62 Rover P4 100
'61 Rover P5 3 litre
'72 Rover P6 3500 Auto
'78 Escort 1300 Sport
'99 Audi A6 V6 Quattro Avant


"It's an Alfa, it will go wrong, it will piss you off, why should your 
Alfa experience be different from everyone else's.
Now get back out there and swear at it before something else breaks."

In article , DavidR says...
> The only thing that ageing can do is
> cause the rubber to perish and for the teeth to break off. What, in 4 years?
> 
4 years in an environment with massively varying temperatures and 
humidity. 


-- 
Conor
www.notebooks-r-us.co.uk
I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't 
looking good either. - Scott Adams

"Nick Finnigan"  wrote in message
news:h68kc1$8f2$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> DavidR wrote:
>> I went to an independant  VW garage a few days ago to find out when a
>> cambelt should be changed. (It was about my daughter's 8yo 65K Leon.)
>>
>> The answer was between 60-80K or 4 years. Hmm. I don't take issue with
>> the
>> mileage but where did this stuff about 4 years come from?
>
>  Some of the wear will be due to extreme conditions, and unrelated to the
> amount of time spent cruising at a steady 2,500 rpm.

The cords are likely to have a cyclic limit. Let's say a belt has a typical
life of 60K miles under typical conditions, that gives it a life of about
300 million cycles. If someone were to drive everywhere at 5000rpm, then
we're looking at 30K miles (or possibly less because the tension would be
higher).

>> Cam belts fail either by the reinforcing cords breaking or for the teeth
>> rounding off and (possibly) jumping. These are fatigue/wear issues and
>> nothing whatsoever to do with age. The only thing that ageing can do is
>> cause the rubber to perish and for the teeth to break off. What, in 4
>> years?
>
>  And crack and turn brittle. Certainly on a 5 yo V belt I just swapped.

But how many miles? You should bear in mind I am trying to distinguish
between wear (mileage/age unimportant) and age (time/negligible mileage)

>> Either there must be a plausible technical reason or this particular
>> establishment is trying on a £330 job creation scheme. Is there a
>> plausible
>> technical reason?
>
>  It is not just that establishment, the manufacturers have little
> incentive to extend intervals beyond the time the first owner is likely to
> sell the car. What does the belt look like? What is the car's likely
> future?

That's not the point in the case of my daughter's Leon. It's done it's 60K
so it's met its cycle life. For my mother, her car will meet some notional
time milestone where the belt will not be worn or have used up many cycles 
but
will have allegedly suffered decomposition.

"Dr Zoidberg" <AlexNOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!@drzoidberg.co.uk> wrote in
> "DavidR"  wrote in message

>>I went to an independant  VW garage a few days ago to find out when a
>> cambelt should be changed. (It was about my daughter's 8yo 65K Leon.)
>>
>> The answer was between 60-80K or 4 years. Hmm. I don't take issue with
>> the mileage but where did this stuff about 4 years come from?
>
> All manufacturers specify an age or mileage - whichever comes first.

Manufacturers specify an age or mileage on many items. Some of it is patent
nonsense.

>> Cam belts fail either by the reinforcing cords breaking or for the teeth
>> rounding off and (possibly) jumping. These are fatigue/wear issues and
>> nothing whatsoever to do with age. The only thing that ageing can do is
>> cause the rubber to perish and for the teeth to break off. What, in 4
>> years?
>
> Yes. I know people who have had belts changed by age rather than mileage
> and seen noticable wear and cracking on the old one.

You say "wear". That's fair enough because the cords undergo cyclic stresses
and the rubber suffers frictional wear. I take issue with the assertion that
with little wear, it can suffer age weakening.

>> Either there must be a plausible technical reason or this particular
>> establishment is trying on a £330 job creation scheme. Is there a
>> plausible
>> technical reason?
>
> It's your choice - some people will be lucky and have no problems.
> Others will.

I want to make a choice based on statistical and technical input. Just
saying it's down to luck does not help.

"DavidR"  wrote in message 
news:7eqphvF2i0cj9U2@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Dr Zoidberg" <AlexNOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!@drzoidberg.co.uk> wrote in
>> "DavidR"  wrote in message
>
>>>I went to an independant  VW garage a few days ago to find out when a
>>> cambelt should be changed. (It was about my daughter's 8yo 65K Leon.)
>>>
>>> The answer was between 60-80K or 4 years. Hmm. I don't take issue with
>>> the mileage but where did this stuff about 4 years come from?
>>
>> All manufacturers specify an age or mileage - whichever comes first.
>
> Manufacturers specify an age or mileage on many items. Some of it is 
> patent
> nonsense.
>
>>> Cam belts fail either by the reinforcing cords breaking or for the teeth
>>> rounding off and (possibly) jumping. These are fatigue/wear issues and
>>> nothing whatsoever to do with age. The only thing that ageing can do is
>>> cause the rubber to perish and for the teeth to break off. What, in 4
>>> years?
>>
>> Yes. I know people who have had belts changed by age rather than mileage
>> and seen noticable wear and cracking on the old one.
>
> You say "wear". That's fair enough because the cords undergo cyclic 
> stresses
> and the rubber suffers frictional wear. I take issue with the assertion 
> that
> with little wear, it can suffer age weakening.

*AND* cracking which can happen from the heating and cooling cycles.

>>> Either there must be a plausible technical reason or this particular
>>> establishment is trying on a £330 job creation scheme. Is there a
>>> plausible
>>> technical reason?
>>
>> It's your choice - some people will be lucky and have no problems.
>> Others will.
>
> I want to make a choice based on statistical and technical input. Just
> saying it's down to luck does not help.
>
Well if you shop round you can get it done for a lot less than £330....


-- 
Alex

"I laugh in the face of danger , then I hide until it goes away"

"DavidR"  wrote in message 
news:7eqphvF2i0cj9U1@mid.individual.net...

> That's not the point in the case of my daughter's Leon. It's done it's 60K
> so it's met its cycle life. For my mother, her car will meet some notional
> time milestone where the belt will not be worn or have used up many cycles 
> but will have allegedly suffered decomposition.

Belts do deteriorate with age even if they are never used. They gradually 
lose their flexibility, whch leaves them more prone to cracking, and 
suubsequent failure.

A belt may last well beyond 4 years, but IMO it'e chance of failure is much 
greater as it gets older, than a belt that has done the same mileage in a 
shorter time.
Mike.

"Miike G"  gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying:

> Belts do deteriorate with age even if they are never used. They
> gradually lose their flexibility, whch leaves them more prone to
> cracking, and suubsequent failure.

Couldn't agree more.

There's a brand spankin' new fan belt in the boot of the Saab. God knows 
how long it's been in there, but it's clearly a fair old while. It's 
almost completely "set" in position. Even if it could be fitted without 
breaking, I don't think it'd last more than days.

DavidR wrote:
> "Nick Finnigan"  wrote in message
> news:h68kc1$8f2$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>  And crack and turn brittle. Certainly on a 5 yo V belt I just swapped.
> 
> But how many miles? You should bear in mind I am trying to distinguish
> between wear (mileage/age unimportant) and age (time/negligible mileage)

  Embrittlement seems to be unrelated to use (or possibly even increased by 
being left in the same, stressed position).

> That's not the point in the case of my daughter's Leon. It's done it's 60K
> so it's met its cycle life. For my mother, her car will meet some notional
> time milestone where the belt will not be worn or have used up many cycles 
> but will have allegedly suffered decomposition.

What does that belt look like? What is that car's likely future?

"Adrian"  wrote in message 
news:7eqrq0F2haisvU1@mid.individual.net...
> "Miike G"  gurgled happily, sounding much
> like they were saying:
>
>> Belts do deteriorate with age even if they are never used. They
>> gradually lose their flexibility, whch leaves them more prone to
>> cracking, and suubsequent failure.
>
> Couldn't agree more.
>
> There's a brand spankin' new fan belt in the boot of the Saab. God knows
> how long it's been in there, but it's clearly a fair old while. It's
> almost completely "set" in position. Even if it could be fitted without
> breaking, I don't think it'd last more than days.

One of those jobs that got put on the "to do list" :)

"Nick Finnigan"  wrote
> DavidR wrote:
>> "Nick Finnigan"  wrote

>>>  And crack and turn brittle. Certainly on a 5 yo V belt I just swapped.
>>
>> But how many miles? You should bear in mind I am trying to distinguish
>> between wear (mileage/age unimportant) and age (time/negligible mileage)

But how many miles had it done? I've swapped 8yo belts with no sign of
cracking.

> Embrittlement seems to be unrelated to use (or possibly even increased by
> being left in the same, stressed position).

Oh, I'm sure that if an engine is not turned for many years, wildlife will
get established and stop the teeth engaging next time it's turned. It's
possible the rubber might set and teeth crack along the corners. I
doubt that lack of movement weakens the cords.

>> That's not the point in the case of my daughter's Leon. It's done it's
>> 60K
>> so it's met its cycle life. For my mother, her car will meet some
>> notional
>> time milestone where the belt will not be worn or have used up many
>> cycles but will have allegedly suffered decomposition.
>
> What does that belt look like? What is that car's likely future?

I haven't looked at it but I would expect that (like others I have seen) the
only sign of use is that the printing has worn off the smooth side.

"Dr Zoidberg" <AlexNOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!@drzoidberg.co.uk> wrote
> "DavidR"  wrote in message

>> I want to make a choice based on statistical and technical input. Just
>> saying it's down to luck does not help.
>>
> Well if you shop round you can get it done for a lot less than £330....

It's the principle.

DavidR wrote:
> "Nick Finnigan"  wrote
>> DavidR wrote:
>>> "Nick Finnigan"  wrote
> 
>>>>  And crack and turn brittle. Certainly on a 5 yo V belt I just swapped.
>>> But how many miles? You should bear in mind I am trying to distinguish
>>> between wear (mileage/age unimportant) and age (time/negligible mileage)
> 
> But how many miles had it done? I've swapped 8yo belts with no sign of
> cracking.

  55,000

"DavidR"  wrote in message 
news:7eqphvF2i0cj9U1@mid.individual.net...

> That's not the point in the case of my daughter's Leon. It's done it's 60K
> so it's met its cycle life. For my mother, her car will meet some notional
> time milestone where the belt will not be worn or have used up many cycles 
> but
> will have allegedly suffered decomposition.

Not really, these recommendations are effectively the warranty period, many 
belts will of course last many years/miles longer than this, just like 
anything else that has a warranty. Rubber does degrade over time though, so 
its up to you whether you want to take the risk. I run a rotary engine with 
14 year old belts that still work fine, but then it doesn't have any valves 
or pistons to collide when the belt snaps.

Of course the more often you change the belts, the greater the chances that 
they and their tensioner might be fitted incorrectly just once causing undue 
wear and possible early failure. Everything is a risk, ultimately it is up 
to the owner to weigh them all up.

Z

"Zimmy" <z@y.x> wrote
> "DavidR"  wrote in message
>> That's not the point in the case of my daughter's Leon. It's done it's
>> 60K
>> so it's met its cycle life. For my mother, her car will meet some
>> notional
>> time milestone where the belt will not be worn or have used up many
>> cycles but
>> will have allegedly suffered decomposition.
>
> Not really, these recommendations are effectively the warranty period,

Except, cam belt change recommendations are usually outside the warranty
period.

> many belts will of course last many years/miles longer than this, just
> like anything else that has a warranty. Rubber does degrade over time
> though, so its up to you whether you want to take the risk. I run a rotary
> engine with 14 year old belts that still work fine, but then it doesn't
> have any valves or pistons to collide when the belt snaps.

Presumably, a rotary doesn't need toothed belts and just has ancillary drive
belts? The last ancillary belt I changed out of precaution was an old style
vbelt maybe 30 or 35 years ago - modern grooved belts can be completely
forgotten about. That's why it's hard to give credence to advice that cam
belts can age deteriorate before they're mileage worn.

> Of course the more often you change the belts, the greater the chances
> that they and their tensioner might be fitted incorrectly just once
> causing undue wear and possible early failure. Everything is a risk,
> ultimately it is up to the owner to weigh them all up.

Trouble is, it can only be weighed up by having technical pointers rather 
than anecdotes. (Though your contribution was very useful in triggering the 
thought process about ancillary belts.)

"Nick Finnigan"  wrote
> DavidR wrote:
>> "Nick Finnigan"  wrote
>>
>>>>>  And crack and turn brittle. Certainly on a 5 yo V belt I just
>>>>> swapped.
>>>> But how many miles? You should bear in mind I am trying to distinguish
>>>> between wear (mileage/age unimportant) and age (time/negligible
>>>> mileage)
>>
>> But how many miles had it done? I've swapped 8yo belts with no sign of
>> cracking.
>
>  55,000

Well, that makes it mileage worn.

"DavidR"  wrote in message 
news:7ett7vF2h6uvoU1@mid.individual.net...
> "Zimmy" <z@y.x> wrote
>> "DavidR"  wrote in message
>>> That's not the point in the case of my daughter's Leon. It's done it's
>>> 60K
>>> so it's met its cycle life. For my mother, her car will meet some
>>> notional
>>> time milestone where the belt will not be worn or have used up many
>>> cycles but
>>> will have allegedly suffered decomposition.
>>
>> Not really, these recommendations are effectively the warranty period,
>
> Except, cam belt change recommendations are usually outside the warranty
> period.

I meant the effective 'warranty period' of the belt.

I've had quite a few older cars in my time and never changed a belt before 
60-70k regardless of age. Never had one fail yet. Maybe I've just been 
lucky, but assuming that belts are at least as reliable as they always were, 
then perhaps manufacturers are just getting more and more cautious as time 
goes on in order to reduce their warranty costs.

Z

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:56:49 +0100, Zimmy wrote:

[...]

> I've had quite a few older cars in my time and never changed a belt
> before 60-70k regardless of age. Never had one fail yet. Maybe I've just
> been lucky, but assuming that belts are at least as reliable as they
> always were, then perhaps manufacturers are just getting more and more
> cautious as time goes on in order to reduce their warranty costs.
> 
> Z

There was a period when Vauxhall and VW attempted to get closer to Ford's 
100K/10year interval.

It cost them dearly in warranty claims; Vauxhall had to reduce their 
interval from 80K to 40K, and were still having some problems.

Renault had a similar bad time for a while; my stepson was an AA patrol 
at that time, and could often predict a failed cambelt whilst driving to 
a job just by the model and year of the car.

Chris

-- 
Remove prejudice to reply.

"Zimmy" <z@y.x> gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

> I meant the effective 'warranty period' of the belt.

No such thing.

> I've had quite a few older cars in my time and never changed a belt
> before 60-70k regardless of age. Never had one fail yet. Maybe I've just
> been lucky

Maybe.

> but assuming that belts are at least as reliable as they always were

or weren't.

> then perhaps manufacturers are just getting more and more cautious as 
> time goes on in order to reduce their warranty costs.

Several of them stretched change intervals too far - as a sop to the 
first owner/fleet buyer - resulting in a lot of premature failures.

"Adrian"  wrote in message 
news:7evrr7F2ibhp7U1@mid.individual.net...
> "Zimmy" <z@y.x> gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:
>
>> I meant the effective 'warranty period' of the belt.
>
> No such thing.

I know, that's why I said 'effective' and put 'warranty period' in quotes.

>
>> I've had quite a few older cars in my time and never changed a belt
>> before 60-70k regardless of age. Never had one fail yet. Maybe I've just
>> been lucky
>
> Maybe.
>
>> but assuming that belts are at least as reliable as they always were
>
> or weren't.
>
>> then perhaps manufacturers are just getting more and more cautious as
>> time goes on in order to reduce their warranty costs.
>
> Several of them stretched change intervals too far - as a sop to the
> first owner/fleet buyer - resulting in a lot of premature failures.

Yes, that's been pointed out.

Z

"Zimmy" <z@y.x> wrote
>
> I've had quite a few older cars in my time and never changed a belt before
> 60-70k regardless of age. Never had one fail yet. Maybe I've just been
> lucky,

I expect that matches most peoples' experience so such "luck" is probably 
fairly commonplace

"Chris Whelan"  wrote

> There was a period when Vauxhall and VW attempted to get closer to Ford's
> 100K/10year interval.

Ah, that proves without question that they don't deteriorate over time and
that the primary factor is mileage. So, yes, anybody recommending a 4 year
(low mileage) change must be talking out of a rear orifice.

> It cost them dearly in warranty claims; Vauxhall had to reduce their
> interval from 80K to 40K, and were still having some problems.

Interesting, so what Ford do to make them cope with the miles? Is it
possible they don't follow the industry standard stupidity of hanging water
pumps and so forth off them? - as cam belt "failures" are not infrequently
down to other stuff breaking first.

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 20:31:59 +0100, DavidR wrote:

[...]

> Interesting, so what Ford do to make them cope with the miles? Is it
> possible they don't follow the industry standard stupidity of hanging
> water pumps and so forth off them? - as cam belt "failures" are not
> infrequently down to other stuff breaking first.

Make them properly?

What the cam-belt drives is very much engine-type dependent. Some of the 
100K mile ones do indeed drive the water pump from the belt.

Chris

-- 
Remove prejudice to reply.

"DavidR"  wrote:
>> There was a period when Vauxhall and VW attempted to get closer to Ford's
>> 100K/10year interval.
>
> Ah, that proves without question that they don't deteriorate over time and
> that the primary factor is mileage. So, yes, anybody recommending a 4 year
> (low mileage) change must be talking out of a rear orifice.
>
>> It cost them dearly in warranty claims; Vauxhall had to reduce their
>> interval from 80K to 40K, and were still having some problems.
>
> Interesting, so what Ford do to make them cope with the miles? Is it
> possible they don't follow the industry standard stupidity of hanging 
> water
> pumps and so forth off them? - as cam belt "failures" are not infrequently
> down to other stuff breaking first.

Pretty much.  Aux drivebelt (oft-referred to as a fan belt) on my 1.8TDDI 
Fiesta van (00/W reg) went on me (slipped off and shredded, rather than 
snapped.  Left me stranded ax it, amongst other things, drove the water 
pump, but I'd much sooner be broken down as a result of that than being at 
the potential mercy of any of the zillion things driven by the cambelt 
seizing up and ending up bending valves and fucking the whole engine.

-- 
"For want of the price of tea and a slice, the old man died."

Chris Whelan wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:56:49 +0100, Zimmy wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>> I've had quite a few older cars in my time and never changed a belt
>> before 60-70k regardless of age. Never had one fail yet. Maybe I've just
>> been lucky, but assuming that belts are at least as reliable as they
>> always were, then perhaps manufacturers are just getting more and more
>> cautious as time goes on in order to reduce their warranty costs.
>>
>> Z
> 
> There was a period when Vauxhall and VW attempted to get closer to Ford's 
> 100K/10year interval.
> 
> It cost them dearly in warranty claims; Vauxhall had to reduce their 
> interval from 80K to 40K, and were still having some problems.
> 
> Renault had a similar bad time for a while; my stepson was an AA patrol 
> at that time, and could often predict a failed cambelt whilst driving to 
> a job just by the model and year of the car.
> 
> Chris
> 

Add Alfa Romeo with T spark engines with belts and engines going South 
before the manufacturers 3 year warranty was out.  They brought the 
service interval to 3 years if I remember right.

C.

Charles C wrote:
> Chris Whelan wrote:
>> On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 09:56:49 +0100, Zimmy wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> I've had quite a few older cars in my time and never changed a belt
>>> before 60-70k regardless of age. Never had one fail yet. Maybe I've just
>>> been lucky, but assuming that belts are at least as reliable as they
>>> always were, then perhaps manufacturers are just getting more and more
>>> cautious as time goes on in order to reduce their warranty costs.
>>>
>>> Z
>>
>> There was a period when Vauxhall and VW attempted to get closer to 
>> Ford's 100K/10year interval.
>>
>> It cost them dearly in warranty claims; Vauxhall had to reduce their 
>> interval from 80K to 40K, and were still having some problems.
>>
>> Renault had a similar bad time for a while; my stepson was an AA 
>> patrol at that time, and could often predict a failed cambelt whilst 
>> driving to a job just by the model and year of the car.

> Add Alfa Romeo with T spark engines with belts and engines going South 
> before the manufacturers 3 year warranty was out.  They brought the 
> service interval to 3 years if I remember right.

Problem with Alfa T-Spark engines is that you have to renew the cambelt, 
cam tensioner and quite often the cam variator every 30-odd thousand 
miles. That's not cheap. Initially Alfa said "60k miles is no problem" 
and then were swamped with snapped belts, failed variators and a huge 
pile of scrap alloy.

Nice enough car the 156, but I'm getting offered them for peanuts three 
or four times a week on average and it's all because of the cambelts. 
Nobody is going to spend £300ish every couple of years just on cambelt 
renewal on a normal car. Last one I was offered was an 03 plate 1.8 
Lusso spec job, 89,000 miles (how very strange, it needs a cambelt very 
soon), £700. Car books at around £1500 but nobody wants to be the one 
who spends £300ish doing the belt and then have to put up with oddball 
Alfa buyers asking a billion questions "Has the cambelt been done", "did 
you use genuine Agip oil in it?, have the top wishbone bushes been done, 
when was the clutch slave cylinder last replaced" etc etc etc.

Not worth the hassle.

-- 
Pete M - OMF#9

'62 Rover P4 100
'61 Rover P5 3 litre
'72 Rover P6 3500 Auto
'78 Escort 1300 Sport
'99 Audi A6 V6 Quattro Avant


"It's an Alfa, it will go wrong, it will piss you off, why should your 
Alfa experience be different from everyone else's.
Now get back out there and swear at it before something else breaks."