Promises 'future referedums' har har, Lisbon states
they don't need anynore referendums to take more power away.

Domestic violence against women in the West

Where does the western woman stand in scale of humanity and who represents her?

Are they represented by the artificial ladies of Hollywood who appear on the TV screens, who are suppressed by the massive work load and by men?

When comparing two different cultures, can a real study be made in order to compare between the realities of the two cultures, and thus reach a practical answer (and not just an informative one) as to which of the two is more honorable and civilized?  In a media that is controlled by corrupt people, women who adhere to Hijaab are considered as a clear evidence for her humility, backwardness degradation, ignorance … etc. On the other hand, trading with women’s bodies was never considered as such…!!

We are trying to claim that the situation of the Muslim or Arab woman is in the highest level of perfection and development. Additionally, we do not believe that the humongous stress she faces is due to her being a female, but rather it is part of what men face, all of which comes as a natural result of the nation being oppressed, tyrannized and forced to follow other cultures.

When we address the situation and status of the western woman, we will do it from an inside look and we will let those concerned do the talking, and let numbers and statistics inform about reality.

We will raise a real dialogue between two civilizations, not only a methodological or ideological one, but a true comparison between the two realities. The topic we chose to start with and address is; “Domestic Violence Against Women In The West”.

We must notice that such violence, which goes beyond human limits and dimensions, is not exercised by illiterate people who live in the countryside somewhere, nor in the poorest areas. Conversely, such abuse is practiced by slick men like those who appear in Hollywood who are in some cases well educated having high social status. It is exercised against weak women, regardless how fine they may appear to be … after returning to their homes; they become nothing more than slaves under the effect of lash of humility and violence.

We will limit our talk to domestic violence against women in the west, and we will prove by numbers that the humiliated woman is not the one who lives in Afghanistan and wears her face cover. We will illustrate that such woman is not the one from the Arabian Peninsula, who is in fact well protected and honored in a community that calls for her respect. Real degrade and vulgarity is that which makes a woman cheap merchandise just like any other tradable good, and made her subject to attacks and all types of oppression and inequity.

The United States of America:  Violence, in all its shapes, has afflicted the weakest member of the family, namely women and children. Things like, secrecy, no sufficient evidence and legal and social barriers make it difficult to obtain very accurate data regarding violence against women, which is, according to social scholars, is the least type of crime that gets reported.

Ironically, most of the available information regarding violence against women is collected from small statistics done here and there, which give a quick general view for something as important as this international phenomenon. Such information can not be used to provide precise indicators to the level of violence and abuse practiced against women, but it certainly clarifies that violence and abuse at homes is a widespread phenomenon, and that the woman is the victim in most cases.

·         In 1980, a statistic was done by Appleton, which included six hundred and twenty American ladies showed that 35% of them were subject to physical husband abuse at least once. In 1981, Chtraws expressed that husband abuse ranges between 50-60% in the United States. On the other hand, in 1982, the percentage was estimated to be 21% by Russell, while Baglo estimated it to range between 25-30%.

·         In 1984, based on her research, Walker pointed out that American women are well experienced in physical abuse, and that 41% of women experienced physical abuse by their mothers and 44% by their fathers. 44% of them witnessed accidents of physical abuse by their fathers on their mothers.

·         Two thousand nine hundred and twenty eight people were killed in 1985 by one of their family members, and if only consider the case of women we see that two thirds of them were killed by their husbands or boyfriends. Then again, in 1984, 20% of women were killed by their husbands and 10% by their boyfriends.

·         Statistics prove that three out of every four women were subject to abuse; 9% of which was done by ex-husbands, 35% by boyfriends and 32% by ex-boyfriends.

·         Another statistic that studied the percentage of attackers confirmed that ex-husbands or separated husbands committed 79% of the attacks, while husbands committed 21% of the attacks.

·         Statistics proved that the most common cause for physical injury of women (and in some cases the only cause) was their boyfriends. It was higher in number than injuries caused by car accidents, robberies and rape all accumulated.

·         According to a study, one out of every four women who seek medical care by a family physician, report that they physically abused by their boyfriends. 37% of such women reported that they hardly overcame them being sexually abused in their childhood, and 29% reported that they were sexually abused when they reached puberty. Also, women who were subject to such abuse experienced depression more than women who did not.

·         Results of a questionnaire that was done on six thousand American families showed that 50% of the men continuously abuse their wives and children physically.

·         Children who were subjected to physical abuse by their fathers usually grow up to be violent people with their wives and abusive of them three times more than other men who did not experience abuse from their fathers in childhood. Additionally, children whose fathers were very harsh and abusive are one thousand times more likely to be abusive to their wives.

·         More than three million kids are endangered by parents’ abuse per year.

·         One million women per year suffer being the victim of abuse by a family member that does not reach the extent of death; this statistic is one of the most moderate ones·         Four million American women a year experience life threatening abuse by their boyfriends. Moreover, one out of every three grown up women face physical abuse by their boyfriends at least once.

·         In 1993 five hundred and fifty seven men were arrested for their abuse to women·         In 1994, 21% of physical abuse cases against women were done relatives, while only 4% of the attack cases against men were done by female relatives.

·         90-95% of the victims of domestic violence were women.

·         Children who live in homes were the husband and wife attack one another are subject to physical abuse fifteen hundred times more than other children.

·         40-60% of the men who ill-treat their wives physically abuse their children.·         In one of the studies done, 27% of the murder cases inside the same family were children.

·         90% of children who get killed before the age of ten were killed as a result of a family dispute, and 56% of them were younger than two years of age.

·         In 1994, two hundred and forty three thousand of those who received medical care in the “Emergency Room” were treated for injuries resulting from physical abuse done by a relative, and the ratio of men to women in this number was 1:9.

·         There are at least four million reports of violence against women yearly, and around 20% of them happened in the house.

·         In 1991, more than ninety women were killed weekly; nine out of every ten were killed by a man.

·         In around 30% of the family violence cases weapons were used.

·         95% of family violence cases were attacks by men on women.


England:

·         1 in 4 women may experience violence in their relationships with men (Women's Aid Federation [England] report, 1992)

·         Severe, repeated and systematic violence occurs in at least 5 of every hundred marriages in Britain;
Between 40 and 45% of murdered women are killed by their male partners;
Between 1 of  every 2 women are murdered by their male partners every week; more than 25% of all violent crime reported to the police is domestic violence of men against women, making it the second most common violent crime; (Domestic Violence - Action for Change, G. Hague & E. Malos, 1993)

·         100,000 women per year seek treatment in London for violent injuries received in the home (Punching Judy, BBC1 TV programme, 1989)

·         30,000 women and children stay in refuges in the UK every year;
One quarter of all assaults are in domestic circumstances (Domestic Violence - Report of an Inter-Agency Working Party, 1992)

·         Jean Louis stated that between one third to two thirds of divorce cases are due to violence at homes, consuming intoxicants and the low moral standards of men.

·         In another report, 77% of husbands who beat their wives do it for no reason. Additionally, the report quoted a woman, whose husband has been beating her for three and a half years since they got married, she said: “If I tell him complain about anything after he beats me, he would resume hitting me, and thus I choose to remain silent. He does not beat using one method, but rather uses many different means of beating, like punching, kicking and hitting my head against the wall; and he would not care if his kicks or munches fall on sensitive areas of my body.”

·         Women organizations try to provide shelters, financial assistance and psychological care for the victims. Joan Jangler is one such example for women who lead this type of campaign, and through the past twelve years she helped thousands of people who were abused at their homes. She collected seventy thousand Pounds to run this project and established the first center in Manchester in 1971, and then her centers spread throughout England and reached one hundred and fifty centers in total.

·         Domestic violence accounts for almost a quarter (23%) of all violent crime. The British Crime Survey: England and Wales. London: Home Office, 2000.

·         In 1999 37% of women homicide victims were killed by present or former partners. This totals 92 women, - 1 every 3 days, or 2 women per week. Criminal Statistics England & Wales 1999. London: Home Office, 1999.

·         1 in 5 young men think that abuse or violence against women is acceptable. Zero Tolerance Charitable Trust. 1998.

France:

·         In France, almost two million women are subject to physical abuse. The officials from the French police stated that this phenomenon covers around 10% of the French families. The government announced that they will run a campaign to educate people most of whom consider this phenomenon a normal thing.

·         Michele André, who is the secretariat for women’s rights in France: “Even animals are treated better than women sometimes. If a man hits a dog in the street then at one person would complain to an animal right’s organization, but when a man hits his wife in the street, no one moves”. She added in a press conference to French press: “People must be made to understand that hitting is an act that just will hold them accountable for. I would like for people to stop thinking of this as a normal matter … the world admits of the existence of the concept of a controller and a controlled, and approves of it …this is a logic that must be stopped”.

·          “France Swar” newspaper quoted officials in the police forces regarding such who said: “92.7% of beating cases amongst spouses happen in cities while 60% of the calls appealing for help in Paris were women whose husbands were abusing them”

·         The secretariat for women’s rights in France that there different types of abuse practiced against women, some are psychological, like threats and humiliation, and others are physical, like hitting.

·         An organization named “Rescue of women who are beaten” noticed that the women who are received in their organization range between 25 and 35 years of age, and the average they were mothers of two children whose education level was law. In most case such ladies were isolated from their families and neighbors. More than often, matters like illness, addiction to intoxicants or unemployment made the abuse practiced against them increase even more, but few dared to expose their situation due to them fearing their husbands’ revenge, or due to the lack of courage.

·         A twenty five year old lady, who tolerated two years of her husband’s beating, said when she was told to leave her house: “In France we do not talk about our married lives, because we do not trust his friends or anyone else to the point that we disclose our personal secrets to them”

·         Alixder Douma, one of the French writers resembled women to meat slices saying: “The more you beat them the thicker they get”

Canada:

·         In a major survey done of over 12,000 Canadian women in 1993, findings showed that one in four women reported experiencing violence from a partner or ex-partner. The Violence Against Women Survey. Ottawa: Ministry of Supply & Services, 1993.

·         The results of a Canadian survey that included married women reflected that the capital experienced more intensive cases of violence against wives than any other place. 36% of wives openly declared that they were abused one way or another at least once since they reached the age of sixteen. 81% of the abuse cases recorded by the police department were done by males, 9% of the abuse cases were done by females, and 10% of the abuse cases were done by both males and females. More than half of these cases (53%) resulted due to one of the two parties at least being under the influence of intoxicants.

New Zealand:

·         According to an official survey to record the cases of domestic violence which was conduct by the Suzan Snaifli and her team reflected that almost three hundred thousand woman and children were victims and domestic violence cases.

·         Moreover, according to another survey done by social services in New Zealand, it was agreed that the ratio of domestic violence reach a rough percentage of 14%. According to other similar studies and surveys in 1994, the ratio was 1 out of 10 or 1 to 4 based the population. This means that the number of abused children were 129556 and the number of abused women were 172125, giving a total of 301681 abuse cases all together.

·         In the year 1985 domestic violence was one of the factors that contributed to the increase of divorce cases to reach 59% from 1500 divorce cases. 38% of these cases were working class women who were forced to call in the police for severe cases of beating, while 13% of the middle class wives refrained from calling the police, in addition to 4% of the wives from the upper class.

Germany:

·         According to one of the surveys in Germany, not less than one hundred thousand women are being attacked and abused by their husbands or boyfriends yearly, both physically and psychologically, with the possibility that the actual figure jumps the six digit number.

·         One of the surveys conduct attributed the high number of abuse cases to long-term unemployment, debts, being an alcoholic and extreme jealousy. One of the governmental institutes in Germany set a program to offer aid through a charitable organization over a period of two years as a solution to this phenomenon.

Switzerland:

·         Switzerland 1997 - 20% of a small sample of women report being physically assaulted (From WHO's website).

These were some surveys and numbers reflecting the reality of the situation of the western woman in the United States and Europe. These countries are claiming to want to reform men by amending laws and legislations worldwide.

The American and European man who commits such a huge number of abuse cases against women, whether a wife, a daughter or a girlfriend, he does so because the method of upbringing in their countries are corrupt and astray and need major practical reformation.

Women in the Arabic and Muslim countries do not face even one tenth of such humility, because men get their guidance from their religion before the law, men are (in most cases) ashamed of committing such crimes that these surveys address.

We are not claiming that our communities are free from any abnormal cases, but such crimes remain within limited numbers that co not exceed by any case 5%.

The so called “Women freedom” program that is trying to enforce the western values and criterions on the entire glob, is doing nothing but attempting to place Muslim women in a low rank and make her a cheep commodity for men to enjoy, use and abuse her by working during day time, then physical abuse on her and her children at night.

We wish that true and authentic surveys could be conducted in our Islamic countries to prove to the world that the Muslim woman who wears a head veil and a face cover, as in some of our conservative communities, gets honored and enjoys the care which the American and western woman never dreams to get.

Note: Most of the statistical data collected are about Western societies that are due to the availability of documentation on the matter. We realize that crime is prevalent in all societies -- Eastern and Western alike. The main thrust of our topic is that adopting the Islamic solution is more fruitful than man-made solutions.

Note: Most of the statistical data collected are about Western societies and that are due to the availability of documentation on the matter. We realize that domestic violence is prevalent in all societies -- Eastern and Western alike. The main thrust of our topic is that adopting the Islamic solution is more fruitful than man-made solutions. http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=135294

url:http://myreader.co.uk/gp/1212-1.aspx

On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 00:45:37 +0800, "Zora
Starr" wrote:

>Domestic violence against women in the West
>
>Where does the western woman stand in scale of humanity and who represents her?

Why does Islam teach that men are permitted to beat their wives?

Svenne

On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:23:21 -0000, "Aramis Gunton"
 wrote:

>Well there you go.

yes, that was indeed carelessly foolish....but i expect it will slide
    away into the long grass

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"abelard"  wrote in message 
news:bqc3f5993hlp81n1u1k30lknocrjm4vs7r@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:23:21 -0000, "Aramis Gunton"
>  wrote:
>
>>Well there you go.
>
> yes, that was indeed carelessly foolish....but i expect it will slide
>    away into the long grass

To be frank it is the political  'long grass' that worries me.

I wonder just how the little people of Germany truly feel about the possible 
accession of Turkey?

Some appear less than enamoured at the present occupiers.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,654955,00.html
" An opinion poll published in Bild am Sonntag newspaper on Sunday showed 51 
percent of Germans agreed with Sarrazin's statement in the magazine 
interview that Turkish immigrants were "neither willing nor able to 
integrate themselves."

On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 17:57:48 -0000, "Aramis Gunton"
 wrote:

>"abelard"  wrote in message 
>news:bqc3f5993hlp81n1u1k30lknocrjm4vs7r@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:23:21 -0000, "Aramis Gunton"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>Well there you go.
>>
>> yes, that was indeed carelessly foolish....but i expect it will slide
>>    away into the long grass
>
>To be frank it is the political  'long grass' that worries me.
>
>I wonder just how the little people of Germany truly feel about the possible 
>accession of Turkey?
>
>Some appear less than enamoured at the present occupiers.
>
>http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,654955,00.html
>" An opinion poll published in Bild am Sonntag newspaper on Sunday showed 51 
>percent of Germans agreed with Sarrazin's statement in the magazine 
>interview that Turkish immigrants were "neither willing nor able to 
>integrate themselves."

as things stand, i don't believe the eussr is stable...
i think it's a paper tiger...

what is your fear re the long grass?
do you really believe 'they' will dare open that door?

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"abelard"  wrote in message 
news:7jg3f5d8pd1g3tbesarl00r47jeoknon0n@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 17:57:48 -0000, "Aramis Gunton"
>  wrote:
>
>>"abelard"  wrote in message
>>news:bqc3f5993hlp81n1u1k30lknocrjm4vs7r@4ax.com...
>>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:23:21 -0000, "Aramis Gunton"
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>>Well there you go.
>>>
>>> yes, that was indeed carelessly foolish....but i expect it will slide
>>>    away into the long grass
>>
>>To be frank it is the political  'long grass' that worries me.
>>
>>I wonder just how the little people of Germany truly feel about the 
>>possible
>>accession of Turkey?
>>
>>Some appear less than enamoured at the present occupiers.
>>
>>http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,654955,00.html
>>" An opinion poll published in Bild am Sonntag newspaper on Sunday showed 
>>51
>>percent of Germans agreed with Sarrazin's statement in the magazine
>>interview that Turkish immigrants were "neither willing nor able to
>>integrate themselves."
>
> as things stand, i don't believe the eussr is stable...

That surely depends just what transpires to rock it.

> i think it's a paper tiger...
>

Why?

Just look at the democratic deficit 'it' has managed to appear normal.

I still cannot believe how complacent everyone  apparently was over the 
second Irish referendum. It appears collectively we now no longer even kid 
ourselves there is an democratioc accountability in operation.

> what is your fear re the long grass?

No fear.

What worries me is that as with Cameron's speech today the billboard 
disguises the reality lurking in the long grass.

Take his *** HEADLINE *** - "Never Again".

Sounds great, firm, decisive, a man in charge yet it appears pretty 
conclusive that the Lisbon Treaty was essentially a fait acompli hence his 
policy promise was akin to the plaintive cry from the soul of a suicide 
victim seconds after hitting the tarmac from 12 stories.

Do you really believe that having obtained ratification all of the 
enthusiastic members are simply going to sign up with a Yes vote to any boat 
rocking Call Me Dave proposes?

All 27 must now say Ay!!!

Over to Dave:

"I recognise, of course, that taking back power in these areas, or 
negotiating arrangements that suit the UK, is not something we can do 
unilaterally.

It means changing the rules of an institution of which we are a member - 
changing rules that Britain has signed up to.

If we want to make changes, we will need to do that through negotiation with 
our European partners, and we will need the agreement of all twenty seven 
member states. "

Errrr..... Nein!!!

Errrrr... Non!!!!

> do you really believe 'they' will dare open that door?

Absolutely!! Look where the place lies.
http://www.risk.net/energy-risk/feature/1511362/turkey-political-pipelines

Fun to come when a EU wide foreign policy has to be established with a firm 
eye on 'muslim sensibilities'

Listen to this prick as he reads his script.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7984762.stm

On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:51:46 -0000, "Aramis Gunton"
 wrote:

>"abelard"  wrote in message 
>news:7jg3f5d8pd1g3tbesarl00r47jeoknon0n@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 17:57:48 -0000, "Aramis Gunton"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>"abelard"  wrote in message
>>>news:bqc3f5993hlp81n1u1k30lknocrjm4vs7r@4ax.com...
>>>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:23:21 -0000, "Aramis Gunton"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Well there you go.
>>>>
>>>> yes, that was indeed carelessly foolish....but i expect it will slide
>>>>    away into the long grass
>>>
>>>To be frank it is the political  'long grass' that worries me.
>>>
>>>I wonder just how the little people of Germany truly feel about the 
>>>possible
>>>accession of Turkey?
>>>
>>>Some appear less than enamoured at the present occupiers.
>>>
>>>http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,654955,00.html
>>>" An opinion poll published in Bild am Sonntag newspaper on Sunday showed 
>>>51
>>>percent of Germans agreed with Sarrazin's statement in the magazine
>>>interview that Turkish immigrants were "neither willing nor able to
>>>integrate themselves."
>>
>> as things stand, i don't believe the eussr is stable...
>
>That surely depends just what transpires to rock it.

imv i regard it as already holed and waterlogged

>> i think it's a paper tiger...

>Why?

how many divisions does the pope have?

>Just look at the democratic deficit 'it' has managed to appear normal.

now you know full well most of the sheep never think
    throughout their long and complacent lives

>I still cannot believe how complacent everyone  apparently was over the 
>second Irish referendum. It appears collectively we now no longer even kid 
>ourselves there is an democratioc accountability in operation.

that is your business and my business and cameron's business
    ....the sheep will just keep munching

>> what is your fear re the long grass?
>
>No fear.
>
>What worries me is that as with Cameron's speech today the billboard 
>disguises the reality lurking in the long grass.

ok

>Take his *** HEADLINE *** - "Never Again".

the sheep have votes

>Sounds great, firm, decisive, a man in charge yet it appears pretty 
>conclusive that the Lisbon Treaty was essentially a fait acompli hence his 
>policy promise was akin to the plaintive cry from the soul of a suicide 
>victim seconds after hitting the tarmac from 12 stories.

repeat....paper....tissue tiger

>Do you really believe that having obtained ratification all of the 
>enthusiastic members are simply going to sign up with a Yes vote to any boat 
>rocking Call Me Dave proposes?
>
>All 27 must now say Ay!!!

they have that option...don't knock it

>Over to Dave:
>
>"I recognise, of course, that taking back power in these areas, or 
>negotiating arrangements that suit the UK, is not something we can do 
>unilaterally.

that's what said to austria...or was it what chamberlain said
    to adolf

>It means changing the rules of an institution of which we are a member - 
>changing rules that Britain has signed up to.

by an illegitimate 'leader'....
i don't accept the clown represents the uk....any more
    than i believe irak was a legitimate state...

my ethics are old fashioned...prior to the dictators club
     at the un...or even in strasbourg or where-ever it is....

>If we want to make changes, we will need to do that through negotiation with 
>our European partners, and we will need the agreement of all twenty seven 
>member states. "
>
>Errrr..... Nein!!!
>
>Errrrr... Non!!!!

my response would be....rotfl....
how you going to enforce your nein??

you really want to go that route?
i strongly suggest you consider your position before
    making your nein public

>> do you really believe 'they' will dare open that door?
>
>Absolutely!! Look where the place lies.
>http://www.risk.net/energy-risk/feature/1511362/turkey-political-pipelines

build 20 nuclear power plants...or 40...or 100

>Fun to come when a EU wide foreign policy has to be established with a firm 
>eye on 'muslim sensibilities'

you can if you want to....the m.e. is even more vulnerable than
     the eussr...

>Listen to this prick as he reads his script.
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7984762.stm 

he's a cult marxist with very inadequate intelligence and
      negligible useful education

let him prove he is not...

by the look of last night the crusher is already closing on
    him by the hour...

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

abelard wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:23:21 -0000, "Aramis Gunton"
>  wrote:
> 
>> Well there you go.
> 
> yes, that was indeed carelessly foolish....but i expect it will slide
>     away into the long grass
>
What is the basis for expecting that?

James

-- 
James Hammerton,
http://jameshammerton.blogspot.com/
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/news/

On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 22:39:13 +0000, James Hammerton
 wrote:

>abelard wrote:
>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:23:21 -0000, "Aramis Gunton"
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> Well there you go.
>> 
>> yes, that was indeed carelessly foolish....but i expect it will slide
>>     away into the long grass
>>
>What is the basis for expecting that?

i think it's politically untenable...

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

abelard wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:51:46 -0000, "Aramis Gunton"
>  wrote:
> 
>> "abelard"  wrote in message 
>> news:7jg3f5d8pd1g3tbesarl00r47jeoknon0n@4ax.com...
>>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 17:57:48 -0000, "Aramis Gunton"
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> "abelard"  wrote in message
>>>> news:bqc3f5993hlp81n1u1k30lknocrjm4vs7r@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:23:21 -0000, "Aramis Gunton"
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well there you go.
>>>>> yes, that was indeed carelessly foolish....but i expect it will slide
>>>>>    away into the long grass
>>>> To be frank it is the political  'long grass' that worries me.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder just how the little people of Germany truly feel about the 
>>>> possible
>>>> accession of Turkey?
>>>>
>>>> Some appear less than enamoured at the present occupiers.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,654955,00.html
>>>> " An opinion poll published in Bild am Sonntag newspaper on Sunday showed 
>>>> 51
>>>> percent of Germans agreed with Sarrazin's statement in the magazine
>>>> interview that Turkish immigrants were "neither willing nor able to
>>>> integrate themselves."
>>> as things stand, i don't believe the eussr is stable...
>> That surely depends just what transpires to rock it.
> 
> imv i regard it as already holed and waterlogged
> 
>>> i think it's a paper tiger...
> 
>> Why?
> 
> how many divisions does the pope have?
> 
>> Just look at the democratic deficit 'it' has managed to appear normal.
> 
> now you know full well most of the sheep never think
>     throughout their long and complacent lives
> 
>> I still cannot believe how complacent everyone  apparently was over the 
>> second Irish referendum. It appears collectively we now no longer even kid 
>> ourselves there is an democratioc accountability in operation.
> 
> that is your business and my business and cameron's business
>     ....the sheep will just keep munching
> 
>>> what is your fear re the long grass?
>> No fear.
>>
>> What worries me is that as with Cameron's speech today the billboard 
>> disguises the reality lurking in the long grass.
> 
> ok
> 
>> Take his *** HEADLINE *** - "Never Again".
> 
> the sheep have votes
> 
>> Sounds great, firm, decisive, a man in charge yet it appears pretty 
>> conclusive that the Lisbon Treaty was essentially a fait acompli hence his 
>> policy promise was akin to the plaintive cry from the soul of a suicide 
>> victim seconds after hitting the tarmac from 12 stories.
> 
> repeat....paper....tissue tiger
> 
>> Do you really believe that having obtained ratification all of the 
>> enthusiastic members are simply going to sign up with a Yes vote to any boat 
>> rocking Call Me Dave proposes?
>>
>> All 27 must now say Ay!!!
> 
> they have that option...don't knock it
> 
>> Over to Dave:
>>
>> "I recognise, of course, that taking back power in these areas, or 
>> negotiating arrangements that suit the UK, is not something we can do 
>> unilaterally.
> 
> that's what said to austria...or was it what chamberlain said
>     to adolf
> 
>> It means changing the rules of an institution of which we are a member - 
>> changing rules that Britain has signed up to.
> 
> by an illegitimate 'leader'....
> i don't accept the clown represents the uk....any more
>     than i believe irak was a legitimate state...
> 
> my ethics are old fashioned...prior to the dictators club
>      at the un...or even in strasbourg or where-ever it is....
> 
>> If we want to make changes, we will need to do that through negotiation with 
>> our European partners, and we will need the agreement of all twenty seven 
>> member states. "
>>
>> Errrr..... Nein!!!
>>
>> Errrrr... Non!!!!
> 
> my response would be....rotfl....
> how you going to enforce your nein??
> 
> you really want to go that route?
> i strongly suggest you consider your position before
>     making your nein public

You're comment seem to imply that the reason the EU has got as far as it 
has is because our government (over a period of decades) has basically 
gone along with it...

>>> do you really believe 'they' will dare open that door?
>> Absolutely!! Look where the place lies.
>> http://www.risk.net/energy-risk/feature/1511362/turkey-political-pipelines
> 
> build 20 nuclear power plants...or 40...or 100

Please remind me what Cameron's position is on building nuke plants?

> 
>> Fun to come when a EU wide foreign policy has to be established with a firm 
>> eye on 'muslim sensibilities'
> 
> you can if you want to....the m.e. is even more vulnerable than
>      the eussr...

Vulnerable to what?

James

-- 
James Hammerton,
http://jameshammerton.blogspot.com/
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/news/

On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 23:02:34 +0000, James Hammerton
 wrote:

>abelard wrote:

>> my response would be....rotfl....
>> how you going to enforce your nein??
>> 
>> you really want to go that route?
>> i strongly suggest you consider your position before
>>     making your nein public
>
>You're comment seem to imply that the reason the EU has got as far as it 
>has is because our government (over a period of decades) has basically 
>gone along with it...

that's a reasonable précis of my view and position

>>>> do you really believe 'they' will dare open that door?
>>> Absolutely!! Look where the place lies.
>>> http://www.risk.net/energy-risk/feature/1511362/turkey-political-pipelines
>> 
>> build 20 nuclear power plants...or 40...or 100
>
>Please remind me what Cameron's position is on building nuke plants?

the door is open but he's not putting up flags and orchestras

>>> Fun to come when a EU wide foreign policy has to be established with a firm 
>>> eye on 'muslim sensibilities'
>> 
>> you can if you want to....the m.e. is even more vulnerable than
>>      the eussr...
>
>Vulnerable to what?

starvation
or worse

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

abelard wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 22:39:13 +0000, James Hammerton
>  wrote:
> 
>> abelard wrote:
>>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:23:21 -0000, "Aramis Gunton"
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well there you go.
>>> yes, that was indeed carelessly foolish....but i expect it will slide
>>>     away into the long grass
>>>
>> What is the basis for expecting that?
> 
> i think it's politically untenable...
> 
>
The whole premise of the EU is - that's why people expect it to 
collapse. It probably will one day, but at the moment it seems to have a 
life and momentum all of it's own.

On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 00:22:22 +0000, Maria 
wrote:

>abelard wrote:
>> On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 22:39:13 +0000, James Hammerton
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> abelard wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:23:21 -0000, "Aramis Gunton"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Well there you go.
>>>> yes, that was indeed carelessly foolish....but i expect it will slide
>>>>     away into the long grass
>>>>
>>> What is the basis for expecting that?
>> 
>> i think it's politically untenable...

>The whole premise of the EU is - that's why people expect it to 
>collapse. It probably will one day, but at the moment it seems to have a 
>life and momentum all of it's own.

so does a con artist until someone calls his bluff

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

abelard wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 00:22:22 +0000, Maria 
> wrote:
> 
>> abelard wrote:
>>> On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 22:39:13 +0000, James Hammerton
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> abelard wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:23:21 -0000, "Aramis Gunton"
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well there you go.
>>>>> yes, that was indeed carelessly foolish....but i expect it will slide
>>>>>     away into the long grass
>>>>>
>>>> What is the basis for expecting that?
>>> i think it's politically untenable...
> 
>> The whole premise of the EU is - that's why people expect it to 
>> collapse. It probably will one day, but at the moment it seems to have a 
>> life and momentum all of it's own.
> 
> so does a con artist until someone calls his bluff
> 

You need consciousness to have your bluff called...the EU is the sum of 
its parts, and at the moment, too many want to leap on the gravy train 
because their countries are poor and can only stand to gain materially.

On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 00:37:50 +0000, Maria 
wrote:

>abelard wrote:
>> On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 00:22:22 +0000, Maria 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> abelard wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 22:39:13 +0000, James Hammerton
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> abelard wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:23:21 -0000, "Aramis Gunton"
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well there you go.
>>>>>> yes, that was indeed carelessly foolish....but i expect it will slide
>>>>>>     away into the long grass
>>>>>>
>>>>> What is the basis for expecting that?
>>>> i think it's politically untenable...
>> 
>>> The whole premise of the EU is - that's why people expect it to 
>>> collapse. It probably will one day, but at the moment it seems to have a 
>>> life and momentum all of it's own.
>> 
>> so does a con artist until someone calls his bluff
>> 
>
>You need consciousness to have your bluff called...the EU is the sum of 
>its parts, and at the moment, too many want to leap on the gravy train 
>because their countries are poor and can only stand to gain materially.

i don't believe cameron is a weakling

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maria wrote:
> abelard wrote:
>> On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 22:39:13 +0000, James Hammerton
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> abelard wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:23:21 -0000, "Aramis Gunton"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Well there you go.
>>>> yes, that was indeed carelessly foolish....but i expect it will
>>>>     slide away into the long grass
>>>>
>>> What is the basis for expecting that?
>>
>> i think it's politically untenable...

> The whole premise of the EU is - that's why people expect it to
> collapse.

What people would they be then?

> It probably will one day, but at the moment it seems to
> have a life and momentum all of it's own.

On what do you base your 'probably will some day'. As far as I can see, 
and I meet a lot of people from different EU countries, most people 
consider it a Good Thing.

Maria wrote:
> abelard wrote:
>> On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 00:22:22 +0000, Maria 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> abelard wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 22:39:13 +0000, James Hammerton
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> abelard wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:23:21 -0000, "Aramis Gunton"
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well there you go.
>>>>>> yes, that was indeed carelessly foolish....but i expect it will
>>>>>>     slide away into the long grass
>>>>>>
>>>>> What is the basis for expecting that?
>>>> i think it's politically untenable...
>>
>>> The whole premise of the EU is - that's why people expect it to
>>> collapse. It probably will one day, but at the moment it seems to
>>> have a life and momentum all of it's own.
>>
>> so does a con artist until someone calls his bluff
>>
>
> You need consciousness to have your bluff called...the EU is the sum
> of its parts, and at the moment, too many want to leap on the gravy
> train because their countries are poor and can only stand to gain
> materially.

So quid France, Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden etc? Poor 
countries leaping on the 'gravy train'? I think not somehow.

On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 12:53:09 +0100, "Lou Ravi"
 wrote:

>Maria wrote:
>> abelard wrote:
>>> On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 00:22:22 +0000, Maria 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> abelard wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 22:39:13 +0000, James Hammerton
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> abelard wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 16:23:21 -0000, "Aramis Gunton"
>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well there you go.
>>>>>>> yes, that was indeed carelessly foolish....but i expect it will
>>>>>>>     slide away into the long grass
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is the basis for expecting that?
>>>>> i think it's politically untenable...
>>>
>>>> The whole premise of the EU is - that's why people expect it to
>>>> collapse. It probably will one day, but at the moment it seems to
>>>> have a life and momentum all of it's own.
>>>
>>> so does a con artist until someone calls his bluff
>>>
>>
>> You need consciousness to have your bluff called...the EU is the sum
>> of its parts, and at the moment, too many want to leap on the gravy
>> train because their countries are poor and can only stand to gain
>> materially.
>
>So quid France, Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden etc? Poor 
>countries leaping on the 'gravy train'? I think not somehow. 

countries don't 'leap'

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

abelard wrote:

> countries don't 'leap'

Pathetic as usual. Do try and learn English usage old fellow.

Did you know that the Sun does not rise in the morning? Did you know 
that leaves do not fall from trees but are shed from them by abscission? 
Did you know that tides do not rise and fall but ebb and flow?

Go away you pathetic little man.