Somehow, he's got Hannan onside. So no split in the party. I wonder what 
tomorrow will bring.

"Alright, a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty might no longer be the most 
logical option: it's hardly for us to tell the Belgians or the Slovenes what 
institutions they should work under. But a referendum on European 
integration - ideally on the broad repatriation of powers - is essential."

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100015547/vaclav-klaus-signs-the-lisbon-treaty-very-well-alone/

"David Cameron may be in front of the nation's cameras within hours to set 
out the new Conservative policy. He does now need to move quickly in order 
to stop MPs, newspapers and campaign organisations digging themselves into 
entrenched positions."

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2009/11/quick-cameron-must-announce-the-new-tory-policy-on-europe-as-soon-as-possible.html

DVH wrote:
> Somehow, he's got Hannan onside. So no split in the party. I wonder what 
> tomorrow will bring.
> 
> "Alright, a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty might no longer be the most 
> logical option: it's hardly for us to tell the Belgians or the Slovenes what 
> institutions they should work under. But a referendum on European 
> integration - ideally on the broad repatriation of powers - is essential."


You can not have some wishy washy eu referendum.

It will look like some great big toffy fudge.

There is only one question that can be asked about Europe now at this late stage.

IN OR OUT.

What sort of green slimy crap referendum will say, do you want to be a little bit in europe.

"Blue"  wrote in message 
news:7lbfccF3badvuU1@mid.individual.net...
> DVH wrote:
>> Somehow, he's got Hannan onside. So no split in the party. I wonder what 
>> tomorrow will bring.
>>
>> "Alright, a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty might no longer be the most 
>> logical option: it's hardly for us to tell the Belgians or the Slovenes 
>> what institutions they should work under. But a referendum on European 
>> integration - ideally on the broad repatriation of powers - is 
>> essential."
>
>
> You can not have some wishy washy eu referendum.
>
> It will look like some great big toffy fudge.
>
> There is only one question that can be asked about Europe now at this late 
> stage.
>
> IN OR OUT.
>
> What sort of green slimy crap referendum will say, do you want to be a 
> little bit in europe.

You're likely to be disappointed!

I'm anticipating a referendum on repatriation of some powers. I won't say 
what my wish-list is at the moment...

DVH wrote:
> "Blue"  wrote in message 
> news:7lbfccF3badvuU1@mid.individual.net...
>> DVH wrote:
>>> Somehow, he's got Hannan onside. So no split in the party. I wonder what 
>>> tomorrow will bring.
>>>
>>> "Alright, a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty might no longer be the most 
>>> logical option: it's hardly for us to tell the Belgians or the Slovenes 
>>> what institutions they should work under. But a referendum on European 
>>> integration - ideally on the broad repatriation of powers - is 
>>> essential."
>>
>> You can not have some wishy washy eu referendum.
>>
>> It will look like some great big toffy fudge.
>>
>> There is only one question that can be asked about Europe now at this late 
>> stage.
>>
>> IN OR OUT.
>>
>> What sort of green slimy crap referendum will say, do you want to be a 
>> little bit in europe.
> 
> You're likely to be disappointed!
> 
> I'm anticipating a referendum on repatriation of some powers. I won't say 
> what my wish-list is at the moment... 
> 
> 

If such a wish list was created, on what basis would those powers be 
rengotiated? Why should they listen?

"Maria"  wrote in message 
news:8MCdnRZP0aWmAG3XnZ2dnUVZ8n5i4p2d@bt.com...
> DVH wrote:
>> "Blue"  wrote in message 
>> news:7lbfccF3badvuU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> DVH wrote:
>>>> Somehow, he's got Hannan onside. So no split in the party. I wonder 
>>>> what tomorrow will bring.
>>>>
>>>> "Alright, a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty might no longer be the most 
>>>> logical option: it's hardly for us to tell the Belgians or the Slovenes 
>>>> what institutions they should work under. But a referendum on European 
>>>> integration - ideally on the broad repatriation of powers - is 
>>>> essential."
>>>
>>> You can not have some wishy washy eu referendum.
>>>
>>> It will look like some great big toffy fudge.
>>>
>>> There is only one question that can be asked about Europe now at this 
>>> late stage.
>>>
>>> IN OR OUT.
>>>
>>> What sort of green slimy crap referendum will say, do you want to be a 
>>> little bit in europe.
>>
>> You're likely to be disappointed!
>>
>> I'm anticipating a referendum on repatriation of some powers. I won't say 
>> what my wish-list is at the moment...
>
> If such a wish list was created, on what basis would those powers be 
> rengotiated? Why should they listen?

Exactly. They won't.

OUT!!

"Maria"  wrote in message 
news:8MCdnRZP0aWmAG3XnZ2dnUVZ8n5i4p2d@bt.com...
> DVH wrote:
>> "Blue"  wrote in message 
>> news:7lbfccF3badvuU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> DVH wrote:
>>>> Somehow, he's got Hannan onside. So no split in the party. I wonder 
>>>> what tomorrow will bring.
>>>>
>>>> "Alright, a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty might no longer be the most 
>>>> logical option: it's hardly for us to tell the Belgians or the Slovenes 
>>>> what institutions they should work under. But a referendum on European 
>>>> integration - ideally on the broad repatriation of powers - is 
>>>> essential."
>>>
>>> You can not have some wishy washy eu referendum.
>>>
>>> It will look like some great big toffy fudge.
>>>
>>> There is only one question that can be asked about Europe now at this 
>>> late stage.
>>>
>>> IN OR OUT.
>>>
>>> What sort of green slimy crap referendum will say, do you want to be a 
>>> little bit in europe.
>>
>> You're likely to be disappointed!
>>
>> I'm anticipating a referendum on repatriation of some powers. I won't say 
>> what my wish-list is at the moment...
>
> If such a wish list was created, on what basis would those powers be 
> rengotiated? Why should they listen?

Because every member state has a quota of political capital, and methods for 
cajoling or even threatening.

The UK is the 3rd or possibly 2nd largest economy of the bloc. We have a 
trade deficit with many other countries, which gives leverage. We pay in 
more than we get out. We have resources like fish and finance that are 
needed by EU producers. We have an army that would do the majority of the 
fighting if the EU decided to invade Somalia or wherever.

These things give us serious bargaining power.

And then there are nuclear threats - the prospect of a referendum on 
something EU-related, the unleashing of Hannan backed by the Tory 
grassroots.

They would have to listen. Their own welfare depends in part on keeping the 
UK happy.

DVH wrote:
> "Maria"  wrote in message 
> news:8MCdnRZP0aWmAG3XnZ2dnUVZ8n5i4p2d@bt.com...
>> DVH wrote:
>>> "Blue"  wrote in message 
>>> news:7lbfccF3badvuU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> DVH wrote:
>>>>> Somehow, he's got Hannan onside. So no split in the party. I wonder 
>>>>> what tomorrow will bring.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Alright, a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty might no longer be the most 
>>>>> logical option: it's hardly for us to tell the Belgians or the Slovenes 
>>>>> what institutions they should work under. But a referendum on European 
>>>>> integration - ideally on the broad repatriation of powers - is 
>>>>> essential."
>>>> You can not have some wishy washy eu referendum.
>>>>
>>>> It will look like some great big toffy fudge.
>>>>
>>>> There is only one question that can be asked about Europe now at this 
>>>> late stage.
>>>>
>>>> IN OR OUT.
>>>>
>>>> What sort of green slimy crap referendum will say, do you want to be a 
>>>> little bit in europe.
>>> You're likely to be disappointed!
>>>
>>> I'm anticipating a referendum on repatriation of some powers. I won't say 
>>> what my wish-list is at the moment...
>> If such a wish list was created, on what basis would those powers be 
>> rengotiated? Why should they listen?
> 
> Because every member state has a quota of political capital, and methods for 
> cajoling or even threatening.
> 
> The UK is the 3rd or possibly 2nd largest economy of the bloc. We have a 
> trade deficit with many other countries, which gives leverage. We pay in 
> more than we get out. We have resources like fish and finance that are 
> needed by EU producers. We have an army that would do the majority of the 
> fighting if the EU decided to invade Somalia or wherever.
> 
> These things give us serious bargaining power.

In other words, we would have to resort to blackmail? It sounds 
ridiculous really, given that we are in the EU entirely voluntarily.

> And then there are nuclear threats - the prospect of a referendum on 
> something EU-related, the unleashing of Hannan backed by the Tory 
> grassroots.
> 
> They would have to listen. Their own welfare depends in part on keeping the 
> UK happy. 
> 
> 
OK - is there a mechanism for bringing such a negotiation about? It's no 
  use trying to appeal if you have no right of appeal.

"Maria"  wrote in message 
news:Af2dncoLKuNlNW3XnZ2dnUVZ8tJi4p2d@bt.com...
> DVH wrote:
>> "Maria"  wrote in message 
>> news:8MCdnRZP0aWmAG3XnZ2dnUVZ8n5i4p2d@bt.com...
>>> DVH wrote:
>>>> "Blue"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:7lbfccF3badvuU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>> DVH wrote:
>>>>>> Somehow, he's got Hannan onside. So no split in the party. I wonder 
>>>>>> what tomorrow will bring.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Alright, a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty might no longer be the 
>>>>>> most logical option: it's hardly for us to tell the Belgians or the 
>>>>>> Slovenes what institutions they should work under. But a referendum 
>>>>>> on European integration - ideally on the broad repatriation of 
>>>>>> powers - is essential."
>>>>> You can not have some wishy washy eu referendum.
>>>>>
>>>>> It will look like some great big toffy fudge.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is only one question that can be asked about Europe now at this 
>>>>> late stage.
>>>>>
>>>>> IN OR OUT.
>>>>>
>>>>> What sort of green slimy crap referendum will say, do you want to be a 
>>>>> little bit in europe.
>>>> You're likely to be disappointed!
>>>>
>>>> I'm anticipating a referendum on repatriation of some powers. I won't 
>>>> say what my wish-list is at the moment...
>>> If such a wish list was created, on what basis would those powers be 
>>> rengotiated? Why should they listen?
>>
>> Because every member state has a quota of political capital, and methods 
>> for cajoling or even threatening.
>>
>> The UK is the 3rd or possibly 2nd largest economy of the bloc. We have a 
>> trade deficit with many other countries, which gives leverage. We pay in 
>> more than we get out. We have resources like fish and finance that are 
>> needed by EU producers. We have an army that would do the majority of the 
>> fighting if the EU decided to invade Somalia or wherever.
>>
>> These things give us serious bargaining power.
>
> In other words, we would have to resort to blackmail?

Oh dear. Blackmail's such an ugly word, don't you think?

> It sounds ridiculous really, given that we are in the EU entirely 
> voluntarily.
>
>> And then there are nuclear threats - the prospect of a referendum on 
>> something EU-related, the unleashing of Hannan backed by the Tory 
>> grassroots.
>>
>> They would have to listen. Their own welfare depends in part on keeping 
>> the UK happy.
> OK - is there a mechanism for bringing such a negotiation about?

That's a good question. It would happen publicly at an IGC between heads of 
state.

But the actual work would all be done before. I suppose Coreper would be the 
channel - i.e. national representatives negotiating with other nat. reps. 
rather than with EU employees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_of_Permanent_Representatives

It depends partly on what you want to repatriate. If you wanted to get 
fisheries back for example, it would be a right headache.

Repealing the HRA would involve some lawyers.

Nothing's impossible...

> It's no use trying to appeal if you have no right of appeal.

"DVH"  wrote in message 
news:4af08d16$0$9418$bed64819@gradwell.net...

> I'm anticipating a referendum on repatriation of some powers. I won't say 
> what my wish-list is at the moment...

A what on what????

This one assumes is to be put before the.... electorate??

Me thinks some may wish to get their heads lower to the ground.

Press button A for a sweety
Press button B for no sweety

Blue wrote:
> DVH wrote:
>> Somehow, he's got Hannan onside. So no split in the party. I wonder 
>> what tomorrow will bring.
>>
>> "Alright, a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty might no longer be the 
>> most logical option: it's hardly for us to tell the Belgians or the 
>> Slovenes what institutions they should work under. But a referendum on 
>> European integration - ideally on the broad repatriation of powers - 
>> is essential."
> 
> 
> You can not have some wishy washy eu referendum.
> 
> It will look like some great big toffy fudge.
> 
> There is only one question that can be asked about Europe now at this 
> late stage.
> 
> IN OR OUT.

What exactly do you say is the problem with a referendum on getting 
specific powers repatriated?

James

-- 
James Hammerton,
http://jameshammerton.blogspot.com/
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/news/

Maria wrote:
> DVH wrote:
>> "Blue"  wrote in message 
>> news:7lbfccF3badvuU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> DVH wrote:
>>>> Somehow, he's got Hannan onside. So no split in the party. I wonder 
>>>> what tomorrow will bring.
>>>>
>>>> "Alright, a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty might no longer be the 
>>>> most logical option: it's hardly for us to tell the Belgians or the 
>>>> Slovenes what institutions they should work under. But a referendum 
>>>> on European integration - ideally on the broad repatriation of 
>>>> powers - is essential."
>>>
>>> You can not have some wishy washy eu referendum.
>>>
>>> It will look like some great big toffy fudge.
>>>
>>> There is only one question that can be asked about Europe now at this 
>>> late stage.
>>>
>>> IN OR OUT.
>>>
>>> What sort of green slimy crap referendum will say, do you want to be 
>>> a little bit in europe.
>>
>> You're likely to be disappointed!
>>
>> I'm anticipating a referendum on repatriation of some powers. I won't 
>> say what my wish-list is at the moment...
>>
> 
> If such a wish list was created, on what basis would those powers be 
> rengotiated? Why should they listen?

I.e. what bargaining chips do we have?

I suppose we can (threaten to) do any of the following should the other 
  EU states not play ball:

* veto everything, where we still have that power,

* oppose every new proposal otherwise, thus potentially scuppering 
proposals where Britain holds the balance of power between competing 
coalitions,

* use every procedural/legal device available to slow down the 
implementation of EU proposals/laws,

* withhold our contributions to the EU budget,

* stop implementing EU directives

How effective any of these would be, and what counter-measures the EU 
states could deploy, is another matter.

James

-- 
James Hammerton,
http://jameshammerton.blogspot.com/
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/news/

DVH wrote:
> "Maria"  wrote in message 
> news:Af2dncoLKuNlNW3XnZ2dnUVZ8tJi4p2d@bt.com...
>> DVH wrote:
>>> "Maria"  wrote in message 
>>> news:8MCdnRZP0aWmAG3XnZ2dnUVZ8n5i4p2d@bt.com...
>>>> DVH wrote:
>>>>> "Blue"  wrote in message 
>>>>> news:7lbfccF3badvuU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>> DVH wrote:
>>>>>>> Somehow, he's got Hannan onside. So no split in the party. I wonder 
>>>>>>> what tomorrow will bring.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Alright, a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty might no longer be the 
>>>>>>> most logical option: it's hardly for us to tell the Belgians or the 
>>>>>>> Slovenes what institutions they should work under. But a referendum 
>>>>>>> on European integration - ideally on the broad repatriation of 
>>>>>>> powers - is essential."
>>>>>> You can not have some wishy washy eu referendum.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It will look like some great big toffy fudge.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is only one question that can be asked about Europe now at this 
>>>>>> late stage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IN OR OUT.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What sort of green slimy crap referendum will say, do you want to be a 
>>>>>> little bit in europe.
>>>>> You're likely to be disappointed!
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm anticipating a referendum on repatriation of some powers. I won't 
>>>>> say what my wish-list is at the moment...
>>>> If such a wish list was created, on what basis would those powers be 
>>>> rengotiated? Why should they listen?
>>> Because every member state has a quota of political capital, and methods 
>>> for cajoling or even threatening.
>>>
>>> The UK is the 3rd or possibly 2nd largest economy of the bloc. We have a 
>>> trade deficit with many other countries, which gives leverage. We pay in 
>>> more than we get out. We have resources like fish and finance that are 
>>> needed by EU producers. We have an army that would do the majority of the 
>>> fighting if the EU decided to invade Somalia or wherever.
>>>
>>> These things give us serious bargaining power.
>> In other words, we would have to resort to blackmail?
> 
> Oh dear. Blackmail's such an ugly word, don't you think?

I suspect the use of such techniques is par for the course, behind the 
scenes...

>> It sounds ridiculous really, given that we are in the EU entirely 
>> voluntarily.
>>
>>> And then there are nuclear threats - the prospect of a referendum on 
>>> something EU-related, the unleashing of Hannan backed by the Tory 
>>> grassroots.
>>>
>>> They would have to listen. Their own welfare depends in part on keeping 
>>> the UK happy.
>> OK - is there a mechanism for bringing such a negotiation about?
> 
> That's a good question. It would happen publicly at an IGC between heads of 
> state.
> 
> But the actual work would all be done before. I suppose Coreper would be the 
> channel - i.e. national representatives negotiating with other nat. reps. 
> rather than with EU employees.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_of_Permanent_Representatives
> 
> It depends partly on what you want to repatriate. If you wanted to get 
> fisheries back for example, it would be a right headache.
> 
> Repealing the HRA would involve some lawyers.

Repealing the HRA wouldn't even need EU blessing. Leaving the ECHR is 
another matter though...

James

-- 
James Hammerton,
http://jameshammerton.blogspot.com/
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/news/