Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of his
"cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet nobody
expected that to happen.

http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga

(Conservative Home)

palemale wrote:
> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of his
> "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet nobody
> expected that to happen.
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
> 
> (Conservative Home)


Everyone at their conference said this is what would happen
and they were all, don't cross bridges till.

Yeah it's also good to have a plan, some foresight.

It just shows they haven't a clue that Europe is only about heading towards a superstate
no more no less.

Do the cons take us for being as dumb as they pretend they are.

On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 22:44:59 +0000, palemale  wrote:

>
>Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of his
>"cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet nobody
>expected that to happen.

you are attempting to spread false claims

he made no such pledge....
he has very clearly stated many times that he would
     not regard a referendum on lisbon as relevant *if and
     after* it was ratified...
and that there would be a referendum on lisbon if it had
    not been ratified

the troy party has also said that if it is ratified matters would not
    rest there....cameron has also said tory policy on the issue
   would be clearly outlined in the manifesto
    

>http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>
>(Conservative Home)

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

palemale wrote:
> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of
> his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet
> nobody expected that to happen.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>
> (Conservative Home)

If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get into 
power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you retarded?

It is possible however, to have a referendum on one of several associated 
issues:

i) That the people of the united kingdom give direct authority to HMG to 
renegotiate our relationship with the EU to repatriate powers back to the 
uk, and if such negotiations prove fruitless, to speedily negotiate our exit 
from the European Union.
ii) A referendum on a binding Constitution including a bill of rights, which 
include a provision that no further competencies are to be surrendered to 
the European Union without a referendum of the British People.

smurf wrote:
> palemale wrote:
>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of
>> his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet
>> nobody expected that to happen.
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>>
>> (Conservative Home)
> 
> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get into 
> power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you retarded?
> 

I don't see why not - no Treaty is irreversible, unilaterally.

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:47:54 +0000, Maria 
wrote:

>smurf wrote:
>> palemale wrote:
>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of
>>> his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet
>>> nobody expected that to happen.
>>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>>>
>>> (Conservative Home)
>> 
>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get into 
>> power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you retarded?
>> 
>
>I don't see why not - no Treaty is irreversible, unilaterally.

i doubt it's that simple or that will be sufficient...the eussr is
    constantly working on creeping dictatorship....with or without
   and sort of legitimate legal structure

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

abelard wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:47:54 +0000, Maria 
> wrote:
> 
>> smurf wrote:
>>> palemale wrote:
>>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of
>>>> his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet
>>>> nobody expected that to happen.
>>>>
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>>>>
>>>> (Conservative Home)
>>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get into 
>>> power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you retarded?
>>>
>> I don't see why not - no Treaty is irreversible, unilaterally.
> 
> i doubt it's that simple or that will be sufficient...the eussr is
>     constantly working on creeping dictatorship....with or without
>    and sort of legitimate legal structure

AIUI Parliament could simply revoke the treaty - sovereignty of 
Parliament states that no parliament may bind a future parliament.
I don't know of anything in EU legislation that prevents this, but I am 
not up to speed on EU law for years now.

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 00:42:10 -0000, "smurf"  wrote:


>
>If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get into 
>power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you retarded?
>


Cameron, writing in The Sun(!) 26/09/07:

"Today, I will give this cast-iron guarantee: If I become PM a
Conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that
emerges from these negotiations.

No treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in a
referendum."

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/eu_referendum/article273758.ece

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:58:32 +0000, Maria 
wrote:

>abelard wrote:
>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:47:54 +0000, Maria 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> smurf wrote:
>>>> palemale wrote:
>>>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of
>>>>> his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet
>>>>> nobody expected that to happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>>>>>
>>>>> (Conservative Home)
>>>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get into 
>>>> power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you retarded?
>>>>
>>> I don't see why not - no Treaty is irreversible, unilaterally.
>> 
>> i doubt it's that simple or that will be sufficient...the eussr is
>>     constantly working on creeping dictatorship....with or without
>>    and sort of legitimate legal structure
>
>AIUI Parliament could simply revoke the treaty - sovereignty of 
>Parliament states that no parliament may bind a future parliament.
>I don't know of anything in EU legislation that prevents this, but I am 
>not up to speed on EU law for years now.

i expect you're correct, but i doubt the tory party want
    a row with the eussr...
they'd probably far rather have a working and growing
   free trade area and tragedy of the commons cooperation

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

abelard wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:58:32 +0000, Maria 
> wrote:
> 
>> abelard wrote:
>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:47:54 +0000, Maria 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> smurf wrote:
>>>>> palemale wrote:
>>>>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of
>>>>>> his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet
>>>>>> nobody expected that to happen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Conservative Home)
>>>>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get into 
>>>>> power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you retarded?
>>>>>
>>>> I don't see why not - no Treaty is irreversible, unilaterally.
>>> i doubt it's that simple or that will be sufficient...the eussr is
>>>     constantly working on creeping dictatorship....with or without
>>>    and sort of legitimate legal structure
>> AIUI Parliament could simply revoke the treaty - sovereignty of 
>> Parliament states that no parliament may bind a future parliament.
>> I don't know of anything in EU legislation that prevents this, but I am 
>> not up to speed on EU law for years now.
> 
> i expect you're correct, but i doubt the tory party want
>     a row with the eussr...
> they'd probably far rather have a working and growing
>    free trade area and tragedy of the commons cooperation


If  only there was something that could bridge the gap between parliments,
make it a bit more binding, something like a referendum.

Oh that's right, they had some trade on way back when, when no one thought
about losing their country. But now no one can be in doubt about the EU.
It's a march towards one nation. If Cameron don't declare to rip it all up
then he's as good as sold as out, just like the rest.

Cameron. I promise no more intergration with Europe, unless I gain power.
They all sing the same song. Less immigrants, less Europe, and then do the opposite.
They're all liars and none can be trusted. I we have to vote for the lying tow-rags
cos otherwise something is wrong with democracy and oh why won't the people vote lol,
crooks n gangster, pocket fillers and liars, two bit hoods. They're all shit and they
know they're a thought away from a lamppost.

So we have a referendum and that would be more solid. Something a parliament could
show the next and future generations. That we made a decision to keep or lose this
country, given to us by so many war dead. Not that the EU think much of referendums
they don't like.

palemale wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 00:42:10 -0000, "smurf"  wrote:
> 
> 
>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get into 
>> power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you retarded?
>>
> 
> 
> Cameron, writing in The Sun(!) 26/09/07:
> 
> "Today, I will give this cast-iron guarantee: If I become PM a
> Conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that
> emerges from these negotiations.
> 
> No treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in a
> referendum."
> 
> http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/eu_referendum/article273758.ece


Yeah pull the other one cameron.

Tell you what though, you want to make it real puka, you get some legal
beagles in and you make sure that if you don't give a EU vote we have another
general election.


Here you go:

   I David Cameron will here by give the British people a referendum
on the EU in the first year of power or a General Election will be called
in the week after the first year in power.


By the way if you didn't mess with your home and expenses this wouldn't
be needed. Tally ho, happy trousering, pip pip whatever.

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 01:34:02 +0000, Blue  wrote:

>abelard wrote:
>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:58:32 +0000, Maria 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> abelard wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:47:54 +0000, Maria 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> smurf wrote:
>>>>>> palemale wrote:
>>>>>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of
>>>>>>> his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet
>>>>>>> nobody expected that to happen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (Conservative Home)
>>>>>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get into 
>>>>>> power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you retarded?
>>>>>>
>>>>> I don't see why not - no Treaty is irreversible, unilaterally.
>>>> i doubt it's that simple or that will be sufficient...the eussr is
>>>>     constantly working on creeping dictatorship....with or without
>>>>    and sort of legitimate legal structure
>>> AIUI Parliament could simply revoke the treaty - sovereignty of 
>>> Parliament states that no parliament may bind a future parliament.
>>> I don't know of anything in EU legislation that prevents this, but I am 
>>> not up to speed on EU law for years now.
>> 
>> i expect you're correct, but i doubt the tory party want
>>     a row with the eussr...
>> they'd probably far rather have a working and growing
>>    free trade area and tragedy of the commons cooperation
>
>
>If  only there was something that could bridge the gap between parliments,
>make it a bit more binding, something like a referendum.
>
>Oh that's right, they had some trade on way back when, when no one thought
>about losing their country. But now no one can be in doubt about the EU.
>It's a march towards one nation. If Cameron don't declare to rip it all up
>then he's as good as sold as out, just like the rest.
>
>Cameron. I promise no more intergration with Europe, unless I gain power.
>They all sing the same song. Less immigrants, less Europe, and then do the opposite.
>They're all liars and none can be trusted. I we have to vote for the lying tow-rags
>cos otherwise something is wrong with democracy and oh why won't the people vote lol,
>crooks n gangster, pocket fillers and liars, two bit hoods. They're all shit and they
>know they're a thought away from a lamppost.
>
>So we have a referendum and that would be more solid. Something a parliament could
>show the next and future generations. That we made a decision to keep or lose this
>country, given to us by so many war dead. Not that the EU think much of referendums
>they don't like.

i don't think cameron will 'sell out'

but politics is not some simple game of tiddly-winks...

i don't think one state is viable....i think you'd end
    with iras and etas all over the shop...

if cameron did prove to be a time-server i don't think
    uk society will remain relatively stable...

meanwhile you're wasting your emotional reserves worrying
    about things that well may not happen

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"abelard"  wrote in message 
news:ts6se5548uesuve44k97vqqnl4qell6pf3@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 22:44:59 +0000, palemale  wrote:
>
>>
>>Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of his
>>"cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet nobody
>>expected that to happen.
>
> you are attempting to spread false claims
>
> he made no such pledge....
> he has very clearly stated many times that he would
>     not regard a referendum on lisbon as relevant *if and
>     after* it was ratified...
> and that there would be a referendum on lisbon if it had
>    not been ratified
>
> the troy party has also said that if it is ratified matters would not
>    rest there

And it has been a consistantly Blairite trait of Cameron that he he has 
evaded the question of what "would not rest there" actually means.

"palemale"  wrote in message 
news:052se5lf5fh2kbqe822c5ucnhrrlcu8rev@4ax.com...
>
> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of his
> "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet nobody
> expected that to happen.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>
> (Conservative Home)


From a link detailing reaction to the news;

"Paul Waugh, of course, got there first. On Friday he wrote that there would 
be no Lisbon vote from the Conservatives. With ConHome's report of a 
'manifesto mandate' I hope we've taken the story on. Reacting to this, Paul 
Waugh blogs: "The idea of a plebiscite appears to be dead and its place is 
the "general election mandate" idea"


"General election mandate"??  - utter weasel words. In other words, a 
complete and total collapse. This pretty well sums things up;

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_rqH4fUbko2U/Su38SYh7AgI/AAAAAAAAPGg/DV4PqvFV4F4/s1600-h/Cameron+is+a+Cnut.jpg

On Nov 2, 12:58 am, Maria  wrote:

> AIUI Parliament could simply revoke the treaty - sovereignty of
> Parliament states that no parliament may bind a future parliament.
> I don't know of anything in EU legislation that prevents this, but I am
> not up to speed on EU law for years now.

AIUI the new treaty incorporates the treaty of Rome. Therefore any
withdrawal from the Lisbon Treaty, once ratified, would ipso facto be
a withdrawal from the Treaty of Rome and exiting the EU altogether.

That is not going to happen this time but it is the direction in which
eventually we will go. You simply cannot go on with wholesale
transfers of power to Brussels and the constant dis-empowerment and
dis-enfranchisement of the British electorate. There will come time
when they will cry "Enough!"

Euroscepticism is not in decline in this country. Quite the reverse! I
fancy that's the case in continental Europe also.

On 1 Nov, 16:42, "smurf"  wrote:
> palemale wrote:
> > Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of
> > his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet
> > nobody expected that to happen.
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>
> > (Conservative Home)
>
> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get into
> power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you retarded?
>
>

Farage pointed out that Wilson threatnened to hold a referendum on an
existing EU treaty if concessions were not made.

Maria wrote:
> smurf wrote:
>> palemale wrote:
>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of
>>> his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet
>>> nobody expected that to happen.
>>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>>>
>>> (Conservative Home)
>>
>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get
>> into power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you
>> retarded?
>
> I don't see why not - no Treaty is irreversible, unilaterally.

This one is. It is irreversible in the sense we cannot return to what was 
before, without agreement of all the other member states. It is true that 
the treaty can be overturned in Parliament, but that means expulsion from 
the EU.

Maria wrote:
> abelard wrote:
>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:47:54 +0000, Maria 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> smurf wrote:
>>>> palemale wrote:
>>>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out
>>>>> of his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.
>>>>> I bet nobody expected that to happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>>>>>
>>>>> (Conservative Home)
>>>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives
>>>> get into power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are
>>>> you retarded?
>>> I don't see why not - no Treaty is irreversible, unilaterally.
>>
>> i doubt it's that simple or that will be sufficient...the eussr is
>>     constantly working on creeping dictatorship....with or without
>>    and sort of legitimate legal structure
>
> AIUI Parliament could simply revoke the treaty - sovereignty of
> Parliament states that no parliament may bind a future parliament.
> I don't know of anything in EU legislation that prevents this, but I
> am not up to speed on EU law for years now.

The EU post ratification is not the same body as the EU pre ratification. 
That EU will no longer exist, it isnt something we can return to.

palemale wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 00:42:10 -0000, "smurf"  wrote:
>
>
>>
>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get
>> into power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you
>> retarded?
>>
>
>
> Cameron, writing in The Sun(!) 26/09/07:
>
> "Today, I will give this cast-iron guarantee: If I become PM a
> Conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that
> emerges from these negotiations.
>
> No treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in
> a referendum."
>
> http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/eu_referendum/article273758.ece

NEWSFLASH It has already being ratified by this country, we can only reverse 
that decision as long as all the other members havent ratified. Once the 
Poles (?) ratify the door is locked. You mght as well have a referendum on 
whether or not it will be a white christmas.

Mike wrote:
> On 1 Nov, 16:42, "smurf"  wrote:
>> palemale wrote:
>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of
>>> his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet
>>> nobody expected that to happen.
>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>>
>>> (Conservative Home)
>>
>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get
>> into power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you
>> retarded?
>>
>>
>
> Farage pointed out that Wilson threatnened to hold a referendum on an
> existing EU treaty if concessions were not made.

Yes, you can do that, and it would put the willies up the EU commission if 
we did, but that isnt a referndum on whether or not we accept the conditions 
of the Lisbon treaty, but a referendum on whether or not we remain a member 
of the EU.

smurf wrote:
> Maria wrote:
>> abelard wrote:
>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:47:54 +0000, Maria 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> smurf wrote:
>>>>> palemale wrote:
>>>>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out
>>>>>> of his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.
>>>>>> I bet nobody expected that to happen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Conservative Home)
>>>>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives
>>>>> get into power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are
>>>>> you retarded?
>>>> I don't see why not - no Treaty is irreversible, unilaterally.
>>> i doubt it's that simple or that will be sufficient...the eussr is
>>>     constantly working on creeping dictatorship....with or without
>>>    and sort of legitimate legal structure
>> AIUI Parliament could simply revoke the treaty - sovereignty of
>> Parliament states that no parliament may bind a future parliament.
>> I don't know of anything in EU legislation that prevents this, but I
>> am not up to speed on EU law for years now.
> 
> The EU post ratification is not the same body as the EU pre ratification. 
> That EU will no longer exist, it isnt something we can return to. 
> 
> 

In other words, we *could* do it but daren't. In other words, membership 
of the EU is not in question. They will never hold a referendum even if 
it isn't ratified because they have no intention of leaving the EU.
Perhaps it would have been better for them to say that in the first place...

smurf wrote:
> Maria wrote:
>> smurf wrote:
>>> palemale wrote:
>>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of
>>>> his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet
>>>> nobody expected that to happen.
>>>>
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>>>>
>>>> (Conservative Home)
>>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get
>>> into power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you
>>> retarded?
>> I don't see why not - no Treaty is irreversible, unilaterally.
> 
> This one is. It is irreversible in the sense we cannot return to what was 
> before, without agreement of all the other member states. It is true that 
> the treaty can be overturned in Parliament, but that means expulsion from 
> the EU. 
> 
> 
British people aren't going to get that then, even if that's what they want.
Would the EU want to expel us?

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 11:33:40 -0000, "smurf"  wrote:

>palemale wrote:
>> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 00:42:10 -0000, "smurf"  wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get
>>> into power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you
>>> retarded?
>>>
>>
>>
>> Cameron, writing in The Sun(!) 26/09/07:
>>
>> "Today, I will give this cast-iron guarantee: If I become PM a
>> Conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that
>> emerges from these negotiations.
>>
>> No treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in
>> a referendum."
>>
>> http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/eu_referendum/article273758.ece
>
>NEWSFLASH It has already being ratified by this country, we can only reverse 
>that decision as long as all the other members havent ratified. Once the 
>Poles (?) ratify the door is locked. You mght as well have a referendum on 
>whether or not it will be a white christmas.
>

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of signing us up to an
"irreversible" EU treaty, the point is that Cameron has demonstrated
that his promises and "cast-iron" guarantees are about as reliable as
those of Blair and Brown.

palemale wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 00:42:10 -0000, "smurf"  wrote:
> 
> 
>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get into 
>> power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you retarded?
>>
> 
> 
> Cameron, writing in The Sun(!) 26/09/07:
> 
> "Today, I will give this cast-iron guarantee: If I become PM a
> Conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that
> emerges from these negotiations.
> 
> No treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in a
> referendum."
> 
> http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/eu_referendum/article273758.ece

Yeah.

But he was lying.


-- 
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of 
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat 
single handed with a quarterstaff.

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 08:59:18 -0000, "True Blue" 
wrote:

>
>"abelard"  wrote in message 
>news:ts6se5548uesuve44k97vqqnl4qell6pf3@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 22:44:59 +0000, palemale  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of his
>>>"cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet nobody
>>>expected that to happen.
>>
>> you are attempting to spread false claims
>>
>> he made no such pledge....
>> he has very clearly stated many times that he would
>>     not regard a referendum on lisbon as relevant *if and
>>     after* it was ratified...
>> and that there would be a referendum on lisbon if it had
>>    not been ratified
>>
>> the troy party has also said that if it is ratified matters would not
>>    rest there
>
>And it has been a consistantly Blairite trait of Cameron that he he has 
>evaded the question of what "would not rest there" actually means. 

he has said more than that...
he is committed...

therefore you can hold him to account...which you
    will surely do if you have any sense

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

smurf wrote:
> Once the Poles (?) ratify

The Czechs

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:47:03 +0000, Maria 
wrote:

>smurf wrote:
>> Maria wrote:
>>> smurf wrote:
>>>> palemale wrote:
>>>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of
>>>>> his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet
>>>>> nobody expected that to happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>>>>>
>>>>> (Conservative Home)
>>>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get
>>>> into power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you
>>>> retarded?
>>> I don't see why not - no Treaty is irreversible, unilaterally.
>> 
>> This one is. It is irreversible in the sense we cannot return to what was 
>> before, without agreement of all the other member states. It is true that 
>> the treaty can be overturned in Parliament, but that means expulsion from 
>> the EU. 
>> 
>> 
>British people aren't going to get that then, even if that's what they want.
>Would the EU want to expel us?

1)it can be modified
2)you play poker you must consider both the
    advantages and costs if you bluff...

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

abelard wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:47:03 +0000, Maria 
> wrote:
> 
>> smurf wrote:
>>> Maria wrote:
>>>> smurf wrote:
>>>>> palemale wrote:
>>>>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of
>>>>>> his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet
>>>>>> nobody expected that to happen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Conservative Home)
>>>>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get
>>>>> into power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you
>>>>> retarded?
>>>> I don't see why not - no Treaty is irreversible, unilaterally.
>>> This one is. It is irreversible in the sense we cannot return to what was 
>>> before, without agreement of all the other member states. It is true that 
>>> the treaty can be overturned in Parliament, but that means expulsion from 
>>> the EU. 
>>>
>>>
>> British people aren't going to get that then, even if that's what they want.
>> Would the EU want to expel us?
> 
> 1)it can be modified
> 2)you play poker you must consider both the
>     advantages and costs if you bluff...
> 

I don't really see how we can 'win'. I don't see what there is to 
negotiate, and why the EU should even negotiate it with us. The EU is a 
massive snowball and we are just another bit of snow. If we fall off, it 
won't care - it will just carry on rolling and picking up other bits of 
snow. I would like to know why our main parties all think the EU is so 
beneficial to Britain, that they are prepared to sacrifice anything to 
stay in it.

abelard wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:47:03 +0000, Maria 
> wrote:
> 
>> smurf wrote:
>>> Maria wrote:
>>>> smurf wrote:
>>>>> palemale wrote:
>>>>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of
>>>>>> his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet
>>>>>> nobody expected that to happen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Conservative Home)
>>>>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get
>>>>> into power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you
>>>>> retarded?
>>>> I don't see why not - no Treaty is irreversible, unilaterally.
>>> This one is. It is irreversible in the sense we cannot return to what was 
>>> before, without agreement of all the other member states. It is true that 
>>> the treaty can be overturned in Parliament, but that means expulsion from 
>>> the EU. 
>>>
>>>
>> British people aren't going to get that then, even if that's what they want.
>> Would the EU want to expel us?
> 
> 1)it can be modified
> 2)you play poker you must consider both the
>     advantages and costs if you bluff...
> 

I don't really see how we can 'win'. I don't see what there is to
negotiate, and why the EU should even negotiate it with us. The EU is a
massive snowball and we are just another bit of snow. If we fall off, it
won't care - it will just carry on rolling and picking up other bits of
snow. I would like to know why our main parties all think the EU is so
beneficial to Britain, that they are prepared to sacrifice anything to
stay in it.

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 12:21:36 +0000, William Black
 wrote:
>>
>>palemale wrote:
>> 
>> Cameron, writing in The Sun(!) 26/09/07:
>> 
>> "Today, I will give this cast-iron guarantee: If I become PM a
>> Conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that
>> emerges from these negotiations.
>> 
>> No treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in a
>> referendum."
>> 
>> http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/eu_referendum/article273758.ece
>
>Yeah.
>
>But he was lying.

Evidently.

"abelard"  wrote in message 
news:mpkte59djnbu13u5nq8ktqno1b5l8m16r6@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 08:59:18 -0000, "True Blue" 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"abelard"  wrote in message
>>news:ts6se5548uesuve44k97vqqnl4qell6pf3@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 22:44:59 +0000, palemale  wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of his
>>>>"cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet nobody
>>>>expected that to happen.
>>>
>>> you are attempting to spread false claims
>>>
>>> he made no such pledge....
>>> he has very clearly stated many times that he would
>>>     not regard a referendum on lisbon as relevant *if and
>>>     after* it was ratified...
>>> and that there would be a referendum on lisbon if it had
>>>    not been ratified
>>>
>>> the troy party has also said that if it is ratified matters would not
>>>    rest there
>>
>>And it has been a consistantly Blairite trait of Cameron that he he has
>>evaded the question of what "would not rest there" actually means.
>
> he has said more than that...
> he is committed...

To what?

>
> therefore you can hold him to account...which you
>    will surely do if you have any sense

Oh, I *will* hold him to account. I will do it at the general election.

abelard wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:58:32 +0000, Maria 
> wrote:
> 
>> abelard wrote:
>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:47:54 +0000, Maria 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> smurf wrote:
>>>>> palemale wrote:
>>>>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of
>>>>>> his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet
>>>>>> nobody expected that to happen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Conservative Home)
>>>>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get into 
>>>>> power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you retarded?
>>>>>
>>>> I don't see why not - no Treaty is irreversible, unilaterally.
>>> i doubt it's that simple or that will be sufficient...the eussr is
>>>     constantly working on creeping dictatorship....with or without
>>>    and sort of legitimate legal structure
>> AIUI Parliament could simply revoke the treaty - sovereignty of 
>> Parliament states that no parliament may bind a future parliament.
>> I don't know of anything in EU legislation that prevents this, but I am 
>> not up to speed on EU law for years now.
> 
> i expect you're correct, but i doubt the tory party want
>     a row with the eussr...
> they'd probably far rather have a working and growing
>    free trade area and tragedy of the commons cooperation

Meanwhile the EU continues to become a centralised, bureaucratic 
superstate with a heavily regulated market...

James

-- 
James Hammerton,
http://jameshammerton.blogspot.com/
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/news/

abelard wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 08:59:18 -0000, "True Blue" 
> wrote:
> 
>> "abelard"  wrote in message 
>> news:ts6se5548uesuve44k97vqqnl4qell6pf3@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 22:44:59 +0000, palemale  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of his
>>>> "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet nobody
>>>> expected that to happen.
>>> you are attempting to spread false claims
>>>
>>> he made no such pledge....
>>> he has very clearly stated many times that he would
>>>     not regard a referendum on lisbon as relevant *if and
>>>     after* it was ratified...
>>> and that there would be a referendum on lisbon if it had
>>>    not been ratified
>>>
>>> the troy party has also said that if it is ratified matters would not
>>>    rest there
>> And it has been a consistantly Blairite trait of Cameron that he he has 
>> evaded the question of what "would not rest there" actually means. 
> 
> he has said more than that...

For example?

James

-- 
James Hammerton,
http://jameshammerton.blogspot.com/
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/news/

abelard wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:47:03 +0000, Maria 
> wrote:
> 
>> smurf wrote:
>>> Maria wrote:
>>>> smurf wrote:
>>>>> palemale wrote:
>>>>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of
>>>>>> his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet
>>>>>> nobody expected that to happen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Conservative Home)
>>>>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get
>>>>> into power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you
>>>>> retarded?
>>>> I don't see why not - no Treaty is irreversible, unilaterally.
>>> This one is. It is irreversible in the sense we cannot return to what was 
>>> before, without agreement of all the other member states. It is true that 
>>> the treaty can be overturned in Parliament, but that means expulsion from 
>>> the EU. 
>>>
>>>
>> British people aren't going to get that then, even if that's what they want.
>> Would the EU want to expel us?
> 
> 1)it can be modified

How?

James

-- 
James Hammerton,
http://jameshammerton.blogspot.com/
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/news/

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 22:46:24 +0000, James Hammerton
 wrote:

>abelard wrote:
>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:58:32 +0000, Maria 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> abelard wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:47:54 +0000, Maria 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> smurf wrote:
>>>>>> palemale wrote:
>>>>>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of
>>>>>>> his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet
>>>>>>> nobody expected that to happen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (Conservative Home)
>>>>>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get into 
>>>>>> power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you retarded?
>>>>>>
>>>>> I don't see why not - no Treaty is irreversible, unilaterally.
>>>> i doubt it's that simple or that will be sufficient...the eussr is
>>>>     constantly working on creeping dictatorship....with or without
>>>>    and sort of legitimate legal structure
>>> AIUI Parliament could simply revoke the treaty - sovereignty of 
>>> Parliament states that no parliament may bind a future parliament.
>>> I don't know of anything in EU legislation that prevents this, but I am 
>>> not up to speed on EU law for years now.
>> 
>> i expect you're correct, but i doubt the tory party want
>>     a row with the eussr...
>> they'd probably far rather have a working and growing
>>    free trade area and tragedy of the commons cooperation
>
>Meanwhile the EU continues to become a centralised, bureaucratic 
>superstate with a heavily regulated market...

just so...
however, merkel is now free of the left wing...
    in spain the left wing is losing control...
   france have ditched the left wing...
   as has italy....
assuming cameron moves into no.10 imv the
   whole centre of gravity will shift...

i see little point speculating at this time...
while 'new' labour the place is a madhouse....
there is no realistic alternative to getting rid of the clown
    and his cronies but cameron...

after that real discussion will be more relevant

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 22:50:03 +0000, James Hammerton
 wrote:

>abelard wrote:
>> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 08:59:18 -0000, "True Blue" 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> "abelard"  wrote in message 
>>> news:ts6se5548uesuve44k97vqqnl4qell6pf3@4ax.com...
>>>> On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 22:44:59 +0000, palemale  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of his
>>>>> "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet nobody
>>>>> expected that to happen.
>>>> you are attempting to spread false claims
>>>>
>>>> he made no such pledge....
>>>> he has very clearly stated many times that he would
>>>>     not regard a referendum on lisbon as relevant *if and
>>>>     after* it was ratified...
>>>> and that there would be a referendum on lisbon if it had
>>>>    not been ratified
>>>>
>>>> the troy party has also said that if it is ratified matters would not
>>>>    rest there
>>> And it has been a consistantly Blairite trait of Cameron that he he has 
>>> evaded the question of what "would not rest there" actually means. 
>> 
>> he has said more than that...
>
>For example?

i'm not keeping a record...
he has long argued that the promised referendum should be held...

imv the tory party will have more weight against the eurofanatics
    after the election...
    the tory party is far more independently minded than 'new'
    labour...cameron is very unlikely to act like a bliar or a clown..

i'm unsure i'm answering you satisfactorily...esp in context
    that i think you know the background of what i'm presenting :-)

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 22:51:13 +0000, James Hammerton
 wrote:

>abelard wrote:
>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:47:03 +0000, Maria 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> smurf wrote:
>>>> Maria wrote:
>>>>> smurf wrote:
>>>>>> palemale wrote:
>>>>>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of
>>>>>>> his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet
>>>>>>> nobody expected that to happen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (Conservative Home)
>>>>>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get
>>>>>> into power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you
>>>>>> retarded?
>>>>> I don't see why not - no Treaty is irreversible, unilaterally.
>>>> This one is. It is irreversible in the sense we cannot return to what was 
>>>> before, without agreement of all the other member states. It is true that 
>>>> the treaty can be overturned in Parliament, but that means expulsion from 
>>>> the EU. 

>>> British people aren't going to get that then, even if that's what they want.
>>> Would the EU want to expel us?
>> 
>> 1)it can be modified
>
>How?

eg
a uk bill of rights...
real border controls....


regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

abelard wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 22:46:24 +0000, James Hammerton
>  wrote:
> 
>> abelard wrote:
>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:58:32 +0000, Maria 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> abelard wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:47:54 +0000, Maria 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> smurf wrote:
>>>>>>> palemale wrote:
>>>>>>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of
>>>>>>>> his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet
>>>>>>>> nobody expected that to happen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (Conservative Home)
>>>>>>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get into 
>>>>>>> power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you retarded?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't see why not - no Treaty is irreversible, unilaterally.
>>>>> i doubt it's that simple or that will be sufficient...the eussr is
>>>>>     constantly working on creeping dictatorship....with or without
>>>>>    and sort of legitimate legal structure
>>>> AIUI Parliament could simply revoke the treaty - sovereignty of 
>>>> Parliament states that no parliament may bind a future parliament.
>>>> I don't know of anything in EU legislation that prevents this, but I am 
>>>> not up to speed on EU law for years now.
>>> i expect you're correct, but i doubt the tory party want
>>>     a row with the eussr...
>>> they'd probably far rather have a working and growing
>>>    free trade area and tragedy of the commons cooperation
>> Meanwhile the EU continues to become a centralised, bureaucratic 
>> superstate with a heavily regulated market...
> 
> just so...

So if all you want is a free trade area and cooperation on tragedy of 
commons issues, that boat sailed long ago, as far as the EU is 
concerned. To get it back, you'll have to repatriate powers and undo the 
combined effects of numerous treaties.

AIUI getting new treaty negotiations going will require the consent of 
every EU member. Why would they agree to it?

> however, merkel is now free of the left wing...
>     in spain the left wing is losing control...
>    france have ditched the left wing...
>    as has italy....
> assuming cameron moves into no.10 imv the
>    whole centre of gravity will shift...

There have been times in the past when the centre of gravity in the EU 
was similarly shifted to the right, but it didn't seem to do much to 
slow down "ever-closer union".

> 
> i see little point speculating at this time...
> while 'new' labour the place is a madhouse....
> there is no realistic alternative to getting rid of the clown
>     and his cronies but cameron...
 >
> after that real discussion will be more relevant

IF Cameron is the real deal.

James

-- 
James Hammerton,
http://jameshammerton.blogspot.com/
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/news/

abelard wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 22:50:03 +0000, James Hammerton
>  wrote:
> 
>> abelard wrote:
>>> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 08:59:18 -0000, "True Blue" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "abelard"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:ts6se5548uesuve44k97vqqnl4qell6pf3@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 22:44:59 +0000, palemale  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of his
>>>>>> "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet nobody
>>>>>> expected that to happen.
>>>>> you are attempting to spread false claims
>>>>>
>>>>> he made no such pledge....
>>>>> he has very clearly stated many times that he would
>>>>>     not regard a referendum on lisbon as relevant *if and
>>>>>     after* it was ratified...
>>>>> and that there would be a referendum on lisbon if it had
>>>>>    not been ratified
>>>>>
>>>>> the troy party has also said that if it is ratified matters would not
>>>>>    rest there
>>>> And it has been a consistantly Blairite trait of Cameron that he he has 
>>>> evaded the question of what "would not rest there" actually means. 
>>> he has said more than that...
>> For example?
> 
> i'm not keeping a record...
> he has long argued that the promised referendum should be held...

Indeed, but that point is soon to be academic with the treaty being 
fully ratified.

> imv the tory party will have more weight against the eurofanatics
>     after the election...
>     the tory party is far more independently minded than 'new'
>     labour...cameron is very unlikely to act like a bliar or a clown..
> 
> i'm unsure i'm answering you satisfactorily...esp in context
>     that i think you know the background of what i'm presenting :-)

To be specific, I'm not aware of Cameron clarifying what is meant by 
"not letting matters rest". ISTM has hasn't said more than that they'd 
hold the referendum (if the treaty wasn't fully ratified) and that if it 
were ratified they wouldn't let matters rest.

James

-- 
James Hammerton,
http://jameshammerton.blogspot.com/
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/news/

abelard wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 22:51:13 +0000, James Hammerton
>  wrote:
> 
>> abelard wrote:
>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:47:03 +0000, Maria 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> smurf wrote:
>>>>> Maria wrote:
>>>>>> smurf wrote:
>>>>>>> palemale wrote:
>>>>>>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of
>>>>>>>> his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet
>>>>>>>> nobody expected that to happen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (Conservative Home)
>>>>>>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get
>>>>>>> into power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you
>>>>>>> retarded?
>>>>>> I don't see why not - no Treaty is irreversible, unilaterally.
>>>>> This one is. It is irreversible in the sense we cannot return to what was 
>>>>> before, without agreement of all the other member states. It is true that 
>>>>> the treaty can be overturned in Parliament, but that means expulsion from 
>>>>> the EU. 
> 
>>>> British people aren't going to get that then, even if that's what they want.
>>>> Would the EU want to expel us?
>>> 1)it can be modified
>> How?
> 
> eg
> a uk bill of rights...

How would that modify the EU? How would that address the powers lost via 
Lisbon and the other treaties?

> real border controls....

Round the EU or around Britain? Isn't the EU taking over responsibility 
for such matters?

James

-- 
James Hammerton,
http://jameshammerton.blogspot.com/
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/news/

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 23:25:34 +0000, James Hammerton
 wrote:

>abelard wrote:
>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 22:51:13 +0000, James Hammerton
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> abelard wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:47:03 +0000, Maria 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> smurf wrote:
>>>>>> Maria wrote:
>>>>>>> smurf wrote:
>>>>>>>> palemale wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of
>>>>>>>>> his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet
>>>>>>>>> nobody expected that to happen.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (Conservative Home)
>>>>>>>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get
>>>>>>>> into power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you
>>>>>>>> retarded?
>>>>>>> I don't see why not - no Treaty is irreversible, unilaterally.
>>>>>> This one is. It is irreversible in the sense we cannot return to what was 
>>>>>> before, without agreement of all the other member states. It is true that 
>>>>>> the treaty can be overturned in Parliament, but that means expulsion from 
>>>>>> the EU. 
>> 
>>>>> British people aren't going to get that then, even if that's what they want.
>>>>> Would the EU want to expel us?
>>>> 1)it can be modified
>>> How?
>> 
>> eg
>> a uk bill of rights...
>
>How would that modify the EU? How would that address the powers lost via 
>Lisbon and the other treaties?

naturally it depends on content...it could stop appeals
    to the eussr...it could ban free speech for scientists

>> real border controls....
>
>Round the EU or around Britain?

i meant for the uk...
meanwhile i don't see the eu doing it at present

> Isn't the EU taking over responsibility 
>for such matters?

i don't know...

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 23:21:43 +0000, James Hammerton
 wrote:

>abelard wrote:
>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 22:46:24 +0000, James Hammerton
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> abelard wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:58:32 +0000, Maria 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> abelard wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:47:54 +0000, Maria 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> smurf wrote:
>>>>>>>> palemale wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of
>>>>>>>>> his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet
>>>>>>>>> nobody expected that to happen.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (Conservative Home)
>>>>>>>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get into 
>>>>>>>> power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you retarded?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't see why not - no Treaty is irreversible, unilaterally.
>>>>>> i doubt it's that simple or that will be sufficient...the eussr is
>>>>>>     constantly working on creeping dictatorship....with or without
>>>>>>    and sort of legitimate legal structure
>>>>> AIUI Parliament could simply revoke the treaty - sovereignty of 
>>>>> Parliament states that no parliament may bind a future parliament.
>>>>> I don't know of anything in EU legislation that prevents this, but I am 
>>>>> not up to speed on EU law for years now.
>>>> i expect you're correct, but i doubt the tory party want
>>>>     a row with the eussr...
>>>> they'd probably far rather have a working and growing
>>>>    free trade area and tragedy of the commons cooperation
>>> Meanwhile the EU continues to become a centralised, bureaucratic 
>>> superstate with a heavily regulated market...
>> 
>> just so...
>
>So if all you want is a free trade area and cooperation on tragedy of 
>commons issues, that boat sailed long ago, as far as the EU is 
>concerned. To get it back, you'll have to repatriate powers and undo the 
>combined effects of numerous treaties.

i'm unreliably told lisbon supercedes all previous 'rules'

>getting new treaty negotiations going will require the consent of 
>every EU member. Why would they agree to it?

well, one reason is that the uk is a net contributor....
    another is that others may find attractions....
another is we act and dare them to make threats

>> however, merkel is now free of the left wing...
>>     in spain the left wing is losing control...
>>    france have ditched the left wing...
>>    as has italy....
>> assuming cameron moves into no.10 imv the
>>    whole centre of gravity will shift...
>
>There have been times in the past when the centre of gravity in the EU 
>was similarly shifted to the right, but it didn't seem to do much to 
>slow down "ever-closer union".

perhaps you should specify...
in the uk the tory party supinely accepted the ratchet
    until thatcher...heath even went begging
 
>> i see little point speculating at this time...
>> while 'new' labour the place is a madhouse....
>> there is no realistic alternative to getting rid of the clown
>>     and his cronies but cameron...
> >
>> after that real discussion will be more relevant
>
>IF Cameron is the real deal.

yes...if he isn't, it is my view that the risks of bad and badder
    things will steadily grow...

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 23:24:20 +0000, James Hammerton
 wrote:

>abelard wrote:
>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 22:50:03 +0000, James Hammerton
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> abelard wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 08:59:18 -0000, "True Blue" 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "abelard"  wrote in message 
>>>>> news:ts6se5548uesuve44k97vqqnl4qell6pf3@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 22:44:59 +0000, palemale  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of his
>>>>>>> "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet nobody
>>>>>>> expected that to happen.
>>>>>> you are attempting to spread false claims
>>>>>>
>>>>>> he made no such pledge....
>>>>>> he has very clearly stated many times that he would
>>>>>>     not regard a referendum on lisbon as relevant *if and
>>>>>>     after* it was ratified...
>>>>>> and that there would be a referendum on lisbon if it had
>>>>>>    not been ratified
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the troy party has also said that if it is ratified matters would not
>>>>>>    rest there
>>>>> And it has been a consistantly Blairite trait of Cameron that he he has 
>>>>> evaded the question of what "would not rest there" actually means. 
>>>> he has said more than that...
>>> For example?
>> 
>> i'm not keeping a record...
>> he has long argued that the promised referendum should be held...
>
>Indeed, but that point is soon to be academic with the treaty being 
>fully ratified.

it is not academic relative to his attitudes...let alone the party
    context

>> imv the tory party will have more weight against the eurofanatics
>>     after the election...
>>     the tory party is far more independently minded than 'new'
>>     labour...cameron is very unlikely to act like a bliar or a clown..
>> 
>> i'm unsure i'm answering you satisfactorily...esp in context
>>     that i think you know the background of what i'm presenting :-)
>
>To be specific, I'm not aware of Cameron clarifying what is meant by 
>"not letting matters rest". ISTM has hasn't said more than that they'd 
>hold the referendum (if the treaty wasn't fully ratified) and that if it 
>were ratified they wouldn't let matters rest.

and that the position would be clarified in the manifesto

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"abelard"  wrote in message 
news:gsoue5tc4b5vl95f7rhjvn53c10dph0p85@4ax.com...
>
> imv the tory party will have more weight against the eurofanatics
>    after the election...


If Lisbon is ratified just how much 'weight' can a provincial government 
apply?

Is it not simply Canute all over again.

http://tinyurl.com/yfh49ac

"abelard"  wrote in message 
news:lqque5dg5dknsia6nmku98vhupqncort5o@4ax.com...
>
>>> real border controls....
>>
>>Round the EU or around Britain?
>
> i meant for the uk...
> meanwhile i don't see the eu doing it at present
>
>> Isn't the EU taking over responsibility
>>for such matters?
>
> i don't know...


http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/faq/index_en.htm
"It will also confirm the EU commitment to the development of a common 
immigration policy"

****

One assumes in essence this will treat the EU as a single entity (State)

Setting us all up for a nice infusion of Turkey no doubt!!!!

What a Christmas that will be eh??

On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 09:30:00 -0000, "Aramis Gunton"
 wrote:

>"abelard"  wrote in message 
>news:gsoue5tc4b5vl95f7rhjvn53c10dph0p85@4ax.com...
>>
>> imv the tory party will have more weight against the eurofanatics
>>    after the election...
>
>
>If Lisbon is ratified just how much 'weight' can a provincial government 
>apply?

 :-)

>Is it not simply Canute all over again.

the definition of an independent state is 'your ability to
    defend yourself'
at present, i don't think that impossible with the eu!!

>http://tinyurl.com/yfh49ac 

no time at present...press if important

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 09:41:39 -0000, "Aramis Gunton"
 wrote:

>"abelard"  wrote in message 
>news:lqque5dg5dknsia6nmku98vhupqncort5o@4ax.com...
>>
>>>> real border controls....
>>>
>>>Round the EU or around Britain?
>>
>> i meant for the uk...
>> meanwhile i don't see the eu doing it at present
>>
>>> Isn't the EU taking over responsibility
>>>for such matters?
>>
>> i don't know...
>
>
>http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/faq/index_en.htm
>"It will also confirm the EU commitment to the development of a common 
>immigration policy"

they've been claiming that for decadesl...or perhaps centuries

>****
>
>One assumes in essence this will treat the EU as a single entity (State)

that seems to be the ambition of
   some fools/dreamers

but i take it you mean on the border issue alone

then i look at the mexican border!

>Setting us all up for a nice infusion of Turkey no doubt!!!!
>
>What a Christmas that will be eh?? 

with 'us' as pudding?

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

abelard wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 23:21:43 +0000, James Hammerton
>  wrote:
> 
>> abelard wrote:
>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 22:46:24 +0000, James Hammerton
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> abelard wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:58:32 +0000, Maria 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> abelard wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:47:54 +0000, Maria 
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> smurf wrote:
>>>>>>>>> palemale wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Well blow me down, it looks like Cameron is about to wriggle out of
>>>>>>>>>> his "cast-iron pledge" for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. I bet
>>>>>>>>>> nobody expected that to happen.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/yhljgga
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (Conservative Home)
>>>>>>>>> If the treaty is already in force by the time the Conservatives get into 
>>>>>>>>> power, how on earth can they have a referendum on it? Are you retarded?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't see why not - no Treaty is irreversible, unilaterally.
>>>>>>> i doubt it's that simple or that will be sufficient...the eussr is
>>>>>>>     constantly working on creeping dictatorship....with or without
>>>>>>>    and sort of legitimate legal structure
>>>>>> AIUI Parliament could simply revoke the treaty - sovereignty of 
>>>>>> Parliament states that no parliament may bind a future parliament.
>>>>>> I don't know of anything in EU legislation that prevents this, but I am 
>>>>>> not up to speed on EU law for years now.
>>>>> i expect you're correct, but i doubt the tory party want
>>>>>     a row with the eussr...
>>>>> they'd probably far rather have a working and growing
>>>>>    free trade area and tragedy of the commons cooperation
>>>> Meanwhile the EU continues to become a centralised, bureaucratic 
>>>> superstate with a heavily regulated market...
>>> just so...
>> So if all you want is a free trade area and cooperation on tragedy of 
>> commons issues, that boat sailed long ago, as far as the EU is 
>> concerned. To get it back, you'll have to repatriate powers and undo the 
>> combined effects of numerous treaties.
> 
> i'm unreliably told lisbon supercedes all previous 'rules'

That's my understanding too, but Lisbon incorporates much of what went 
before, in addition to adding its dose of centralisation.

> 
>> getting new treaty negotiations going will require the consent of 
>> every EU member. Why would they agree to it?
> 
> well, one reason is that the uk is a net contributor....

I.e. you suggest we could invoke the prospect of withholding our 
contributions if we can't get what we want.

>     another is that others may find attractions....
> another is we act and dare them to make threats

But then, what is to stop them invoking their own sanctions against us?

>>> however, merkel is now free of the left wing...
>>>     in spain the left wing is losing control...
>>>    france have ditched the left wing...
>>>    as has italy....
>>> assuming cameron moves into no.10 imv the
>>>    whole centre of gravity will shift...
>> There have been times in the past when the centre of gravity in the EU 
>> was similarly shifted to the right, but it didn't seem to do much to 
>> slow down "ever-closer union".
> 
> perhaps you should specify...
> in the uk the tory party supinely accepted the ratchet
>     until thatcher...heath even went begging

Even in thatcher's time we got the centralising single market (endorsed 
by thatcher at the time).

The EU's modus operandi with any serious resistance, is to appear to 
back down, then repackage what they wanted and try again at a moment 
when resistance has lost momentum, e.g. due to change of government, 
change of economic circumstances, or successfully duping people into 
thinking repackaged proposals aren't the scary things they backed down 
on before.

They may make tactical, temporary retreats but only to bide time to 
regroup and press forward again. E.g. the EU constitution being revived 
in the form of the Lisbon treaty.

>>> i see little point speculating at this time...
>>> while 'new' labour the place is a madhouse....
>>> there is no realistic alternative to getting rid of the clown
>>>     and his cronies but cameron...
>>>
>>> after that real discussion will be more relevant
>> IF Cameron is the real deal.
> 
> yes...if he isn't, it is my view that the risks of bad and badder
>     things will steadily grow...

On this we agree...

James

-- 
James Hammerton,
http://jameshammerton.blogspot.com/
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/news/