Given that we're still in recession, and other similar countries aren't, 
there seems to be something structurally wrong with the economy.

Has anyone looked into this?

Weak pound? Low productivity per head? Bloated public sector?

Brown seems to have gone from moderate to fundamentalist Keynesian. But is 
he right?

DVH wrote:
> Given that we're still in recession, and other similar countries aren't, 
> there seems to be something structurally wrong with the economy.
> 
> Has anyone looked into this?
> 
> Weak pound? Low productivity per head? Bloated public sector?

It's the housing bubble. The banks should have been regulated and 
housing deregulated instead of the other way around.

On Nov 1, 9:26 pm, Ishvara  wrote:
> DVH wrote:
> > Given that we're still in recession, and other similar countries aren't> > there seems to be something structurally wrong with the economy.
>
> > Has anyone looked into this?
>
> > Weak pound? Low productivity per head? Bloated public sector?
>
> It's the housing bubble. The banks should have been regulated and
> housing deregulated instead of the other way around.

It's ludicrous that the economy relies on the price of houses, other
countries (quite rightly IMHO) think Brits are mad to spend so much on
somewhere to live and then put up with filling it with shite from Ikea
etc. because they can't afford proper furniture.  Our standard of
living is lower, as is the quality of life because everyone has to
hustle to have somewhere to live FFS.  In other countries, "normal"
people mostly buy houses as somewhere to live and don't usually worry
about whether it will increase in value because the chances are it
won't for many years.  You can see the root of the disease in any high
street - even in quite small towns there are estate agent "shops"
something you never see (except occasionally in cities) sur le
Continong.

The systematic destruction of manufacturing started by Maggie and
enthusiastically continued by every government since means our economy
has no real base and relies on the scraps from other peoples' tables.
Yet there are still enough fucking lunatics who think we've got it
right and the Germans, French et al are wrong and that we should split
from the very countries who provide those scraps.  Go figger...

UD

DVH wrote:
> Given that we're still in recession, and other similar countries aren't, 
> there seems to be something structurally wrong with the economy.
> 
> Has anyone looked into this?
> 
> Weak pound? Low productivity per head? Bloated public sector?
> 
> Brown seems to have gone from moderate to fundamentalist Keynesian. But is 
> he right? 
> 
> 

America still makes loads of stuff - America IIUC pursues some measures 
of protectionism, Americans generally have more disposable income with 
which to stimulate their economy.

Not only are we taxed to the hilt, but even the middle-classes have less 
and less disposable income these days - petrol costs, energy bills, and 
ridiculous council taxes. We have been skint for well over 10 years  - 
the availability of credit simply masked it.
All IMHO of course, but I've been saying it for 10 years, and waiting 
for the collapse since.

As unfashionable as it may seem, we could IMHO really do with resuming 
some level of manufacturing, and stop relying on circulating money for a 
living (money which effectively loses value as it is circulating, as 
each party nibbles their bit of it...)

On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 21:15:54 -0000, "DVH"  wrote:

>Given that we're still in recession, and other similar countries aren't, 
>there seems to be something structurally wrong with the economy.
>
>Has anyone looked into this?
>
>Weak pound? Low productivity per head? Bloated public sector?
>
>Brown seems to have gone from moderate to fundamentalist Keynesian. But is 
>he right? 

he's an innumerate cult fool...i don't think more need be said
he's not worth wasting time of thought on...

i'm surprised you ask the question...the uk is living above its
    means...that's the most of it...
you can work more or eat less...

what do you really need that you don't have? or can't get?

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

abelard wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 21:15:54 -0000, "DVH"  wrote:
> 
>> Given that we're still in recession, and other similar countries aren't, 
>> there seems to be something structurally wrong with the economy.
>>
>> Has anyone looked into this?
>>
>> Weak pound? Low productivity per head? Bloated public sector?
>>
>> Brown seems to have gone from moderate to fundamentalist Keynesian. But is 
>> he right? 
> 
> he's an innumerate cult fool...i don't think more need be said
> he's not worth wasting time of thought on...
> 
> i'm surprised you ask the question...the uk is living above its
>     means...that's the most of it...
> you can work more or eat less...
> 
> what do you really need that you don't have? or can't get?

A job :(

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 01:52:27 +0000, Maria 
wrote:

>abelard wrote:
>> On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 21:15:54 -0000, "DVH"  wrote:
>> 
>>> Given that we're still in recession, and other similar countries aren't, 
>>> there seems to be something structurally wrong with the economy.
>>>
>>> Has anyone looked into this?
>>>
>>> Weak pound? Low productivity per head? Bloated public sector?
>>>
>>> Brown seems to have gone from moderate to fundamentalist Keynesian. But is 
>>> he right? 
>> 
>> he's an innumerate cult fool...i don't think more need be said
>> he's not worth wasting time of thought on...
>> 
>> i'm surprised you ask the question...the uk is living above its
>>     means...that's the most of it...
>> you can work more or eat less...
>> 
>> what do you really need that you don't have? or can't get?
>
>A job :(

you have a job...as a nurse...

why do you want another job?

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

abelard wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 01:52:27 +0000, Maria 
> wrote:
> 
>> abelard wrote:
>>> On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 21:15:54 -0000, "DVH"  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Given that we're still in recession, and other similar countries aren't, 
>>>> there seems to be something structurally wrong with the economy.
>>>>
>>>> Has anyone looked into this?
>>>>
>>>> Weak pound? Low productivity per head? Bloated public sector?
>>>>
>>>> Brown seems to have gone from moderate to fundamentalist Keynesian. But is 
>>>> he right? 
>>> he's an innumerate cult fool...i don't think more need be said
>>> he's not worth wasting time of thought on...
>>>
>>> i'm surprised you ask the question...the uk is living above its
>>>     means...that's the most of it...
>>> you can work more or eat less...
>>>
>>> what do you really need that you don't have? or can't get?
>> A job :(
> 
> you have a job...as a nurse...
> 
> why do you want another job?

I need a wage to pay my bills. Business is kerplop with huge overdraft 
now, and postal strike has done for me this time - people are just not 
ordering.
I can't even get an interview...or a reply. Apart from anything, no 
references...

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 01:58:01 +0000, Maria 
wrote:

>abelard wrote:
>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 01:52:27 +0000, Maria 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> abelard wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 21:15:54 -0000, "DVH"  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Given that we're still in recession, and other similar countries aren't, 
>>>>> there seems to be something structurally wrong with the economy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Has anyone looked into this?
>>>>>
>>>>> Weak pound? Low productivity per head? Bloated public sector?
>>>>>
>>>>> Brown seems to have gone from moderate to fundamentalist Keynesian. But is 
>>>>> he right? 
>>>> he's an innumerate cult fool...i don't think more need be said
>>>> he's not worth wasting time of thought on...
>>>>
>>>> i'm surprised you ask the question...the uk is living above its
>>>>     means...that's the most of it...
>>>> you can work more or eat less...
>>>>
>>>> what do you really need that you don't have? or can't get?
>>> A job :(
>> 
>> you have a job...as a nurse...
>> 
>> why do you want another job?
>
>I need a wage to pay my bills. Business is kerplop with huge overdraft 
>now, and postal strike has done for me this time - people are just not 
>ordering.
>I can't even get an interview...or a reply. Apart from anything, no 
>references...

you're eating, you're housed, you have your nursery....
is your business ltd?

you rode out the last depression....why not this one?

your mate working?
any of the other inmates?

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DVH wrote:
> Given that we're still in recession, and other similar countries aren't,
> there seems to be something structurally wrong with the economy.
>
> Has anyone looked into this?
>
> Weak pound? Low productivity per head? Bloated public sector?
>
> Brown seems to have gone from moderate to fundamentalist Keynesian. But is
> he right?

My 2d ...
Indeed, we do have structural problems. I liken it to our house of
cards being built with rather too many floors. And no, this obvious
question is incapable of even being formulated by those who should be
posing it.
Hence, the panels of bankers and spivs who've been providing long term
'expert' advice to our light-touch government, can (at best!) only
ever advise on building  houses-of-cards and in turn can envision no
understanding of the fundamental mechanics of structural engineering.

(I normally totally ignore all ref's to authors, writers, economists
and philosophers etc but had to confirm the 'Keynes' mention:)
Yes, it does seem to be slowly dawning on Broon that something is not
quite right with his mooted recovery and yes, I feel he'd benefit in
taking some 'Keynesian', (aka common sense) action.
I personally think Broon's at a mental break point. On the one hand,
day to day events means he's now being forced to regard with suspicion
the quality of the advice provided by his spiv chums. On the other
hand he has the slime Mandelsohn (tainted by time spent amongst real
EC politicians) now pushing the idea that 'industry' is where we need
to be heading.
It means that Broon is home-alone in having to call any shots. He
badly needs expert help but this will not be available (Ironic really
as that's what he's spent time engineering).   He's only an average
Joe, a bit thick, a hack career politician and I don't believe he's
the tools needed to prevail.
A nervous breakdown looks in order.

"abelard"  wrote in message 
news:edese5tc7fpr3l27fth9b9crbsd61a8nb9@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 21:15:54 -0000, "DVH"  wrote:
>
>>Given that we're still in recession, and other similar countries aren't,
>>there seems to be something structurally wrong with the economy.
>>
>>Has anyone looked into this?
>>
>>Weak pound? Low productivity per head? Bloated public sector?
>>
>>Brown seems to have gone from moderate to fundamentalist Keynesian. But is
>>he right?
>
> he's an innumerate cult fool...i don't think more need be said
> he's not worth wasting time of thought on...
>
> i'm surprised you ask the question...
> the uk is living above its
>    means...that's the most of it...

I'm only partly satisfied with the answers I've seen so far.

I see countries with larger public sectors recovering more quickly than the 
UK, having suffered less. By that I mean countries that employ more in the 
public sector, tax more, and spend more as a proportion of GDP.

Govt spending as proportion of GDP:

Germany 45.4%
France 53.4%
UK 44.6%

According to the Heritage Foundation 
(http://www.heritage.org/Index/Ranking.aspx)

> you can work more or eat less...
>
> what do you really need that you don't have? or can't get?

More money. But how's that connected to structural problems of the UK 
economy?

>
> regards
>
> -- 
> web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics
> energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year 
> past
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
>  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
>  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
>                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Maria"  wrote in message 
news:2qWdnR3YO8w8oXPXnZ2dnUVZ7opi4p2d@bt.com...
> abelard wrote:
>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 01:52:27 +0000, Maria 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> abelard wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 21:15:54 -0000, "DVH"  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Given that we're still in recession, and other similar countries 
>>>>> aren't, there seems to be something structurally wrong with the 
>>>>> economy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Has anyone looked into this?
>>>>>
>>>>> Weak pound? Low productivity per head? Bloated public sector?
>>>>>
>>>>> Brown seems to have gone from moderate to fundamentalist Keynesian. 
>>>>> But is he right?
>>>> he's an innumerate cult fool...i don't think more need be said
>>>> he's not worth wasting time of thought on...
>>>>
>>>> i'm surprised you ask the question...the uk is living above its
>>>>     means...that's the most of it...
>>>> you can work more or eat less...
>>>>
>>>> what do you really need that you don't have? or can't get?
>>> A job :(
>>
>> you have a job...as a nurse...
>>
>> why do you want another job?
>
> I need a wage to pay my bills. Business is kerplop with huge overdraft 
> now, and postal strike has done for me this time - people are just not 
> ordering.
> I can't even get an interview...or a reply. Apart from anything, no 
> references...

Abe is winding himself up to tell you to consider the lilies of the field 
;-)

When you mentioned the increase in your household, I did wonder.

Internet businesses thrive (partly) on things like coding binges until 4 in 
the morning, which doesn't seem compatible with skippering a large crew as 
you do.

DVH wrote:
> I'm only partly satisfied with the answers I've seen so far.
> 
> I see countries with larger public sectors recovering more quickly than the 
> UK, having suffered less. By that I mean countries that employ more in the 
> public sector, tax more, and spend more as a proportion of GDP.

I've said this before, but it's down to the cost of *basic* living, 
mostly housing but also things like domestic energy and transport. 
People in the UK have to spend so much of their incomes on these that 
there is not enough left to support a strong domestic economy. Germany 
and France are recovering more quickly because they do not have a 
housing bubble, and as a result their citizens have enough spare cash to 
support a strong domestic economy.

Many British people don't see this because they believe that they have 
been, are, or will profit from property price inflation when it has 
been, is, and will, strangle the life out of the economy.

abelard wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 01:58:01 +0000, Maria 
> wrote:
> 
>> abelard wrote:
>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 01:52:27 +0000, Maria 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> abelard wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 21:15:54 -0000, "DVH"  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Given that we're still in recession, and other similar countries aren't, 
>>>>>> there seems to be something structurally wrong with the economy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Has anyone looked into this?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Weak pound? Low productivity per head? Bloated public sector?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brown seems to have gone from moderate to fundamentalist Keynesian. But is 
>>>>>> he right? 
>>>>> he's an innumerate cult fool...i don't think more need be said
>>>>> he's not worth wasting time of thought on...
>>>>>
>>>>> i'm surprised you ask the question...the uk is living above its
>>>>>     means...that's the most of it...
>>>>> you can work more or eat less...
>>>>>
>>>>> what do you really need that you don't have? or can't get?
>>>> A job :(
>>> you have a job...as a nurse...
>>>
>>> why do you want another job?
>> I need a wage to pay my bills. Business is kerplop with huge overdraft 
>> now, and postal strike has done for me this time - people are just not 
>> ordering.
>> I can't even get an interview...or a reply. Apart from anything, no 
>> references...
> 
> you're eating, you're housed, you have your nursery....
> is your business ltd?

No

> 
> you rode out the last depression....why not this one?

And the one before that. Last depression I had nothing to lose and no debt.

> your mate working?

3 part time cleaning jobs ~£400/month

> any of the other inmates?

All too young except R who is at full time college. She has applied for 
lots of part-time jobs but not even got an interview either.

DVH wrote:
> "Maria"  wrote in message 
> news:2qWdnR3YO8w8oXPXnZ2dnUVZ7opi4p2d@bt.com...
>> abelard wrote:
>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 01:52:27 +0000, Maria 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> abelard wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 21:15:54 -0000, "DVH"  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Given that we're still in recession, and other similar countries 
>>>>>> aren't, there seems to be something structurally wrong with the 
>>>>>> economy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Has anyone looked into this?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Weak pound? Low productivity per head? Bloated public sector?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brown seems to have gone from moderate to fundamentalist Keynesian. 
>>>>>> But is he right?
>>>>> he's an innumerate cult fool...i don't think more need be said
>>>>> he's not worth wasting time of thought on...
>>>>>
>>>>> i'm surprised you ask the question...the uk is living above its
>>>>>     means...that's the most of it...
>>>>> you can work more or eat less...
>>>>>
>>>>> what do you really need that you don't have? or can't get?
>>>> A job :(
>>> you have a job...as a nurse...
>>>
>>> why do you want another job?
>> I need a wage to pay my bills. Business is kerplop with huge overdraft 
>> now, and postal strike has done for me this time - people are just not 
>> ordering.
>> I can't even get an interview...or a reply. Apart from anything, no 
>> references...
> 
> Abe is winding himself up to tell you to consider the lilies of the field 
> ;-)
> 
> When you mentioned the increase in your household, I did wonder.
> 
> Internet businesses thrive (partly) on things like coding binges until 4 in 
> the morning, which doesn't seem compatible with skippering a large crew as 
> you do. 
> 
> 
I still manage that (and feeling it!) - the problem was that I made the 
mistake of taking on a shop for 6 months to see if it would work - it 
didn't and it wacked up my overdraft considerably. I am relying on the 
christmas binge to knock it down a bit - it looks unlikely now.
If I could just get even a part-time job for 20 hours it would help 
(because we wouldn't lost any tax credits), but for every job there is 
an ever-increasing number of applicants and I would probably be near to 
bottom of the list...

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:14:44 +0000, Maria 
wrote:

>abelard wrote:
>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 01:58:01 +0000, Maria 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> abelard wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 01:52:27 +0000, Maria 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> abelard wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 21:15:54 -0000, "DVH"  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Given that we're still in recession, and other similar countries aren't, 
>>>>>>> there seems to be something structurally wrong with the economy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Has anyone looked into this?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Weak pound? Low productivity per head? Bloated public sector?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brown seems to have gone from moderate to fundamentalist Keynesian. But is 
>>>>>>> he right? 
>>>>>> he's an innumerate cult fool...i don't think more need be said
>>>>>> he's not worth wasting time of thought on...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i'm surprised you ask the question...the uk is living above its
>>>>>>     means...that's the most of it...
>>>>>> you can work more or eat less...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> what do you really need that you don't have? or can't get?
>>>>> A job :(
>>>> you have a job...as a nurse...
>>>>
>>>> why do you want another job?
>>> I need a wage to pay my bills. Business is kerplop with huge overdraft 
>>> now, and postal strike has done for me this time - people are just not 
>>> ordering.
>>> I can't even get an interview...or a reply. Apart from anything, no 
>>> references...
>> 
>> you're eating, you're housed, you have your nursery....
>> is your business ltd?
>
>No

>> you rode out the last depression....why not this one?
>
>And the one before that. Last depression I had nothing to lose and no debt.

you had negative equity...that removed

>> your mate working?
>
>3 part time cleaning jobs ~£400/month
>
>> any of the other inmates?
>
>All too young except R who is at full time college. She has applied for 
>lots of part-time jobs but not even got an interview either.

ok...i won't ask in public for numbers...

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 08:26:21 -0000, "DVH"  wrote:

>
>"Maria"  wrote in message 
>news:2qWdnR3YO8w8oXPXnZ2dnUVZ7opi4p2d@bt.com...
>> abelard wrote:
>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 01:52:27 +0000, Maria 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> abelard wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 21:15:54 -0000, "DVH"  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Given that we're still in recession, and other similar countries 
>>>>>> aren't, there seems to be something structurally wrong with the 
>>>>>> economy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Has anyone looked into this?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Weak pound? Low productivity per head? Bloated public sector?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brown seems to have gone from moderate to fundamentalist Keynesian. 
>>>>>> But is he right?
>>>>> he's an innumerate cult fool...i don't think more need be said
>>>>> he's not worth wasting time of thought on...
>>>>>
>>>>> i'm surprised you ask the question...the uk is living above its
>>>>>     means...that's the most of it...
>>>>> you can work more or eat less...
>>>>>
>>>>> what do you really need that you don't have? or can't get?
>>>> A job :(
>>>
>>> you have a job...as a nurse...
>>>
>>> why do you want another job?
>>
>> I need a wage to pay my bills. Business is kerplop with huge overdraft 
>> now, and postal strike has done for me this time - people are just not 
>> ordering.
>> I can't even get an interview...or a reply. Apart from anything, no 
>> references...
>
>Abe is winding himself up to tell you to consider the lilies of the field 
>;-)

hey, that's an idea...

>When you mentioned the increase in your household, I did wonder.
>
>Internet businesses thrive (partly) on things like coding binges until 4 in 
>the morning, which doesn't seem compatible with skippering a large crew as 
>you do. 

she has another source of income in her house price inflation
    and she has potential workers
i see her business is also not moribund and there is probably
    stock which to run down if she is so inclined

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 08:18:44 -0000, "DVH"  wrote:

>
>"abelard"  wrote in message 
>news:edese5tc7fpr3l27fth9b9crbsd61a8nb9@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 21:15:54 -0000, "DVH"  wrote:
>>
>>>Given that we're still in recession, and other similar countries aren't,
>>>there seems to be something structurally wrong with the economy.
>>>
>>>Has anyone looked into this?
>>>
>>>Weak pound? Low productivity per head? Bloated public sector?
>>>
>>>Brown seems to have gone from moderate to fundamentalist Keynesian. But is
>>>he right?
>>
>> he's an innumerate cult fool...i don't think more need be said
>> he's not worth wasting time of thought on...
>>
>> i'm surprised you ask the question...
>> the uk is living above its
>>    means...that's the most of it...
>
>I'm only partly satisfied with the answers I've seen so far.
>
>I see countries with larger public sectors recovering more quickly than the 
>UK, having suffered less. By that I mean countries that employ more in the 
>public sector, tax more, and spend more as a proportion of GDP.
>
>Govt spending as proportion of GDP:
>
>Germany 45.4%
>France 53.4%
>UK 44.6%
>
>According to the Heritage Foundation 
>(http://www.heritage.org/Index/Ranking.aspx)

is that the table link you intended?

1)the clown's enron accounting leaves much off-book...
2)personal borrowing is also very high in the uk...and
    probably business borrowing also

>> you can work more or eat less...
>>
>> what do you really need that you don't have? or can't get?
>
>More money. But how's that connected to structural problems of the UK 
>economy?

you are currently living on borrowing...

most of uk income is other people's washing....

a great deal of the uk's problem is bad management....
thence imv the first questions are 'where do you wish to
    get instead? and how do you intend to get there?

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 09:49:59 +0000, Ishvara 
wrote:

>DVH wrote:
>> I'm only partly satisfied with the answers I've seen so far.
>> 
>> I see countries with larger public sectors recovering more quickly than the 
>> UK, having suffered less. By that I mean countries that employ more in the 
>> public sector, tax more, and spend more as a proportion of GDP.
>
>I've said this before, but it's down to the cost of *basic* living, 
>mostly housing but also things like domestic energy and transport. 
>People in the UK have to spend so much of their incomes on these that 
>there is not enough left to support a strong domestic economy. Germany 
>and France are recovering more quickly because they do not have a 
>housing bubble, and as a result their citizens have enough spare cash to 
>support a strong domestic economy.

what else would you spend money on?
where else would you keep your savings?
how else would you try to protect your savings from
    socialism?

>Many British people don't see this because they believe that they have 
>been, are, or will profit from property price inflation when it has 
>been, is, and will, strangle the life out of the economy.

imv you are not thinking clearly about money

further, the ones in the lottery are and have profited

regards

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Nov 1, 9:15 pm, "DVH"  wrote:
> Given that we're still in recession, and other similar countries aren't,
> there seems to be something structurally wrong with the economy.
>
> Has anyone looked into this?
>
> Weak pound? Low productivity per head? Bloated public sector?
>
> Brown seems to have gone from moderate to fundamentalist Keynesian. But is
> he right?

Well, the economy is now structured in a way that it relies upon the
continued cycle of immigration to maintain a superfluous labour
market, thus (in principle) creating greater profits for the various
corporations, which in turn fills the governments piggy bank.  Problem
is, because our economy is completely reliant on the global system, we
are at a major disadvantage, unlike countries like German and France,
who still possess 'tangible' wealth creation mechanism, that can
offset major global downturns.  We simply, thanks to Maggie and NL,
don't have that capacity.

Britain now posses a ‘latent’ economy, that seeks to fill every piece
of real estate with concrete and people in order to maintain this
ludicrous liberal conception of perpetual economic growth.

abelard wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 08:26:21 -0000, "DVH"  wrote:
> 
>> "Maria"  wrote in message 
>> news:2qWdnR3YO8w8oXPXnZ2dnUVZ7opi4p2d@bt.com...
>>> abelard wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 01:52:27 +0000, Maria 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> abelard wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 21:15:54 -0000, "DVH"  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Given that we're still in recession, and other similar countries 
>>>>>>> aren't, there seems to be something structurally wrong with the 
>>>>>>> economy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Has anyone looked into this?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Weak pound? Low productivity per head? Bloated public sector?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brown seems to have gone from moderate to fundamentalist Keynesian. 
>>>>>>> But is he right?
>>>>>> he's an innumerate cult fool...i don't think more need be said
>>>>>> he's not worth wasting time of thought on...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i'm surprised you ask the question...the uk is living above its
>>>>>>     means...that's the most of it...
>>>>>> you can work more or eat less...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> what do you really need that you don't have? or can't get?
>>>>> A job :(
>>>> you have a job...as a nurse...
>>>>
>>>> why do you want another job?
>>> I need a wage to pay my bills. Business is kerplop with huge overdraft 
>>> now, and postal strike has done for me this time - people are just not 
>>> ordering.
>>> I can't even get an interview...or a reply. Apart from anything, no 
>>> references...
>> Abe is winding himself up to tell you to consider the lilies of the field 
>> ;-)
> 
> hey, that's an idea...
> 
>> When you mentioned the increase in your household, I did wonder.
>>
>> Internet businesses thrive (partly) on things like coding binges until 4 in 
>> the morning, which doesn't seem compatible with skippering a large crew as 
>> you do. 
> 
> she has another source of income in her house price inflation

We have considered that, but we would not be able to get anywhere else 
to live. We would not get a mortgage now, and rentals all require you to 
be in work and earning a minimum amount, as well as employer references 
etc. We can only hope that the Abbey will extend our mortgage to another 
£10k to rid the debt - we can afford that, but it's whether they will 
lend it or not.

>     and she has potential workers

Not yet...not soon enough, assuming that (unlike my daughter) they can 
find work. Now that the EU has ordered RBS to be broken up, I'm worried 
that my OD facility is not worth the paper it's written on - some small 
businesses have been made bankrupt because of withdrawn OD facilities.

> i see her business is also not moribund and there is probably
>     stock which to run down if she is so inclined

I'm doing that, but as I say, due to the postal strike, orders have 
fallen to about 10-20% of normal, so not much is shifting at all.

abelard wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:14:44 +0000, Maria 
> wrote:
> 
>> abelard wrote:
>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 01:58:01 +0000, Maria 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> abelard wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 01:52:27 +0000, Maria 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> abelard wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 21:15:54 -0000, "DVH"  wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Given that we're still in recession, and other similar countries aren't, 
>>>>>>>> there seems to be something structurally wrong with the economy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Has anyone looked into this?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Weak pound? Low productivity per head? Bloated public sector?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Brown seems to have gone from moderate to fundamentalist Keynesian. But is 
>>>>>>>> he right? 
>>>>>>> he's an innumerate cult fool...i don't think more need be said
>>>>>>> he's not worth wasting time of thought on...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> i'm surprised you ask the question...the uk is living above its
>>>>>>>     means...that's the most of it...
>>>>>>> you can work more or eat less...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> what do you really need that you don't have? or can't get?
>>>>>> A job :(
>>>>> you have a job...as a nurse...
>>>>>
>>>>> why do you want another job?
>>>> I need a wage to pay my bills. Business is kerplop with huge overdraft 
>>>> now, and postal strike has done for me this time - people are just not 
>>>> ordering.
>>>> I can't even get an interview...or a reply. Apart from anything, no 
>>>> references...
>>> you're eating, you're housed, you have your nursery....
>>> is your business ltd?
>> No
> 
>>> you rode out the last depression....why not this one?
>> And the one before that. Last depression I had nothing to lose and no debt.
> 
> you had negative equity...that removed

Yes...not much use to us though, unless we can remortgage. (see other 
reply to you)

> 
>>> your mate working?
>> 3 part time cleaning jobs ~£400/month
>>
>>> any of the other inmates?
>> All too young except R who is at full time college. She has applied for 
>> lots of part-time jobs but not even got an interview either.
> 
> ok...i won't ask in public for numbers...

I don't care! What numbers do you require?! :)
Dave earns £400/month, I earn nothing now, and tax credits are around 
£200/week. Bills are £200/week. Hardly any  'debt' (e.g. credit cards 
etc) but just usual outgoings too high and this bloody overdraft. Things 
are bad right now. If I could just get work, even half time job, I could 
use that to pay off overdraft, but I can't get anything.

Maria wrote:
> We can only hope that the Abbey will extend our
> mortgage to another £10k to rid the debt

So you think that incurring an additional debt of 10k will 'rid the 
debt' do you?

I really think it is time you went back to school and learnt a little 
more arithmetic.

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 23:19:52 +0100, "Lou Ravi"
 wrote:

>Maria wrote:
>> We can only hope that the Abbey will extend our
>> mortgage to another £10k to rid the debt
>
>So you think that incurring an additional debt of 10k will 'rid the 
>debt' do you?

>I really think it is time you went back to school and learnt a little 
>more arithmetic. 

you really are innumerate...
her action is entirely rational...the interest rate will be 
   much reduced

-- 
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics 
 energy, education, politics, etc over 1 million document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  all that is necessary for       []     walk quietly and carry
  the triumph of evil is that     []           a big stick.
  good people do nothing     []    trust actions not words
                    only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ishvara wrote:
> DVH wrote:
> > I'm only partly satisfied with the answers I've seen so far.
> >
> > I see countries with larger public sectors recovering more quickly than the
> > UK, having suffered less. By that I mean countries that employ more in the
> > public sector, tax more, and spend more as a proportion of GDP.
>
> I've said this before, but it's down to the cost of *basic* living,
> mostly housing but also things like domestic energy and transport.
> People in the UK have to spend so much of their incomes on these that
> there is not enough left to support a strong domestic economy. Germany
> and France are recovering more quickly because they do not have a
> housing bubble, and as a result their citizens have enough spare cash to
> support a strong domestic economy.
>
> Many British people don't see this because they believe that they have
> been, are, or will profit from property price inflation when it has
> been, is, and will, strangle the life out of the economy.

If you had to compare the long term graphs for property price
inflation, with the estimated (at the time) Christmas bonus payments
to the spivs, a clear correlation can be seen. Noticeably from the
period starting with Thatcher's 'Big Bang' deregulation of the stock
market in '87.
Bonus payments were running  about £20Billion in 2001, compared with a
paltry £6Billion now (temp' hiatus). Suggests only another year before
the housing lunacy returns.

Lou Ravi wrote:
> Maria wrote:
>> We can only hope that the Abbey will extend our
>> mortgage to another £10k to rid the debt
> 
> So you think that incurring an additional debt of 10k will 'rid the 
> debt' do you?

Do you not understand what is going on here?
I owe RBS money for business account - they are pulling business 
accounts right left and centre and demanding the debt immediately. If 
you cannot pay, then they can make you bankrupt or try to seize your 
home to get the money back. So which is better, to owe a mortgage lender 
an extra £10 over 12 years (which is what I have left on the mortgage), 
or not be able to pay RBS and lose our home?

> 
> I really think it is time you went back to school and learnt a little 
> more arithmetic. 

I think you need to understand what is actually going on.
For a start it would not be 'an additional debt' because the RBS debt 
would be paid off with the loan...yes - no?

Maria wrote:
> abelard wrote:
>> On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 21:15:54 -0000, "DVH"  wrote:
>>
>>> Given that we're still in recession, and other similar countries 
>>> aren't, there seems to be something structurally wrong with the economy.
>>>
>>> Has anyone looked into this?
>>>
>>> Weak pound? Low productivity per head? Bloated public sector?
>>>
>>> Brown seems to have gone from moderate to fundamentalist Keynesian. 
>>> But is he right? 
>>
>> he's an innumerate cult fool...i don't think more need be said
>> he's not worth wasting time of thought on...
>>
>> i'm surprised you ask the question...the uk is living above its
>>     means...that's the most of it...
>> you can work more or eat less...
>>
>> what do you really need that you don't have? or can't get?
> 
> A job :(

Not many wealth producing jobs around, and wealth absorbing ones are due 
for the chop

-- 
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show

Maria wrote:
> Lou Ravi wrote:
>> Maria wrote:
>>> We can only hope that the Abbey will extend our
>>> mortgage to another £10k to rid the debt
>>
>> So you think that incurring an additional debt of 10k will 'rid the
>> debt' do you?
>
> Do you not understand what is going on here?
> I owe RBS money for business account - they are pulling business
> accounts right left and centre and demanding the debt immediately. If
> you cannot pay, then they can make you bankrupt or try to seize your
> home to get the money back. So which is better, to owe a mortgage
> lender an extra £10 over 12 years (which is what I have left on the
> mortgage), or not be able to pay RBS and lose our home?

I'm not disputing the way you handle your finances, I'm pointing out 
that borrowing more money will not 'rid the debt' just move it from one 
account to another. Just a point of logic, not a criticism.

>> I really think it is time you went back to school and learnt a little
>> more arithmetic.

> I think you need to understand what is actually going on.
> For a start it would not be 'an additional debt' because the RBS debt
> would be paid off with the loan...yes - no?

No, it would not be an *additional* debt if you intend to do what you 
describe above but the debt would still exist. It may be that this debt 
would be cheaper to pay back than the other, and so worth doing, but the 
debt is still there.

abelard wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 23:19:52 +0100, "Lou Ravi"
>  wrote:
>
>> Maria wrote:
>>> We can only hope that the Abbey will extend our
>>> mortgage to another £10k to rid the debt
>>
>> So you think that incurring an additional debt of 10k will 'rid the
>> debt' do you?
>
>> I really think it is time you went back to school and learnt a little
>> more arithmetic.
>
> you really are innumerate...
> her action is entirely rational...the interest rate will be
>   much reduced

It can be reduced to zero, that won't "rid the debt".