As is my habit two or three times a week, today I went to the local 
restaurant in my village. It is without a doubt the best deal in the 
Luberon and probably in Provence. 13.50 euros, with two big starters, 
enough in themselves almost, an excellent main course well cooked and 
interesting, a giant help yourself cheese tray, dessert, a quarter litre 
of wine and the coffee usually thrown in.
Needless to say it is full every day (about 40 covers) and many 
latecomersd are refused entry.

There are several regulars and the owners always try to fit them in even 
if it needs a rearrangement of tables. Some days though it is 
particularly difficult such as today when there were two parties of 
about 15 people each. It meant that I was put on a table with other 
regulars, who I know and have spoken to a little, one, an old fellow who 
fought with the free French forces during the war and who is mainly 
based in Ramatuelle, a chic vilage next door to St Tropez, and another 
fellow who was born in the village, was a 'paysan', a son of Italians 
immigrant 'paysans'. A common enough thing here.

Both had interesting stories to tell, as did I being an English 
immigrant gone native since always, about life here and life in general 
and while I usually eat alone and read the newspaper 'Libération', today 
I only glanced at it and participated fully in the discourse, far more 
interesting than political bollocks.

When they left, the male of the couple on the next table, who had 
probably caught some of our conversation, struck up another with me. 
They were Belgians, Walloons from Namur. We spoke about Europe of 
course, life in general, the restaurant, the state of Belgium etc. Nice 
and pretty normal here where we have lots of tourists and second home 
owners (as they were). I love meeting people and almost always strike up 
a conversation with those around me in restaurants, though it was he 
this time that took the initiative. Another day it could have been 
Germans (quite a few eat there regularly) or Dutch or A.N. Other. It's 
delightful. It is only with the British that I find a difference. They 
are very happy to be here, as one should be in this beautiful place, but 
I never get the impression that they feel 'chez soi', at home in 
continental Europe as the other nationalities seem to do. That rather 
saddens me, as do the comments here very often.

The peasant (retired) wasn't daft, he knew all about the agricultuiral 
rules, prices, fiddles. The older guy loved his time with the British 
during the war (he even spent five days looking after Churchill) but had 
no illusions about its 'perfidy', its looking after its own interests. 
Perfectly acceptable in theory he would admit, but annoying for the 
French or others. Niether coud understand why you hadn't adopted the 
Euro, even though both admitted that prices had rocketed since its 
inception, despite what the government said, as happened in the UK with 
decimalisation.

The experience, once again, made me think about the attitude to Europe 
in the UK, (and here). There seems to be something that you haven't 
understood, the object of the EU, the assembling of peoples with a 
common and wonderful culture who have had stupid wars for millenia who 
can now put their energies into useful things. Of course the 
organisation is full of crap, most organisations are, especially if they 
are as big and diverse as those of the EU. But don't throw away the baby 
with the bathwater. It is up to everyone to improve the situation as 
they may.

Bon weekend à tout le monde

On 4 July, 14:03, "Lou Ravi"  wrote:
> As is my habit two or three times a week, today I went to the local
> restaurant in my village. It is without a doubt the best deal in the
> Luberon and probably in Provence. 13.50 euros, with two big starters,
> enough in themselves almost, an excellent main course well cooked and
> interesting, a giant help yourself cheese tray, dessert, a quarter litre
> of wine and the coffee usually thrown in.
> Needless to say it is full every day (about 40 covers) and many
> latecomersd are refused entry.
>
> There are several regulars and the owners always try to fit them in even
> if it needs a rearrangement of tables. Some days though it is
> particularly difficult such as today when there were two parties of
> about 15 people each. It meant that I was put on a table with other
> regulars, who I know and have spoken to a little, one, an old fellow who
> fought with the free French forces during the war and who is mainly
> based in Ramatuelle, a chic vilage next door to St Tropez, and another
> fellow who was born in the village, was a 'paysan', a son of Italians
> immigrant 'paysans'. A common enough thing here.
>
> Both had interesting stories to tell, as did I being an English
> immigrant gone native since always, about life here and life in general
> and while I usually eat alone and read the newspaper 'Libération', today
> I only glanced at it and participated fully in the discourse, far more
> interesting than political bollocks.
>
> When they left, the male of the couple on the next table, who had
> probably caught some of our conversation, struck up another with me.
> They were Belgians, Walloons from Namur. We spoke about Europe of
> course, life in general, the restaurant, the state of Belgium etc. Nice
> and pretty normal here where we have lots of tourists and second home
> owners (as they were). I love meeting people and almost always strike up
> a conversation with those around me in restaurants, though it was he
> this time that took the initiative. Another day it could have been
> Germans (quite a few eat there regularly) or Dutch or A.N. Other. It's
> delightful. It is only with the British that I find a difference. They
> are very happy to be here, as one should be in this beautiful place, but
> I never get the impression that they feel 'chez soi', at home in
> continental Europe as the other nationalities seem to do. That rather
> saddens me, as do the comments here very often.
>
> The peasant (retired) wasn't daft, he knew all about the agricultuiral
> rules, prices, fiddles. The older guy loved his time with the British
> during the war (he even spent five days looking after Churchill) but had
> no illusions about its 'perfidy', its looking after its own interests.
> Perfectly acceptable in theory he would admit, but annoying for the
> French or others. Niether coud understand why you hadn't adopted the
> Euro, even though both admitted that prices had rocketed since its
> inception, despite what the government said, as happened in the UK with
> decimalisation.
>
> The experience, once again, made me think about the attitude to Europe
> in the UK, (and here). There seems to be something that you haven't
> understood, the object of the EU, the assembling of peoples with a
> common and wonderful culture who have had stupid wars for millenia who
> can now put their energies into useful things. Of course the
> organisation is full of crap, most organisations are, especially if they
> are as big and diverse as those of the EU. But don't throw away the baby
> with the bathwater. It is up to everyone to improve the situation as
> they may.
>
> Bon weekend à tout le monde

In France in our local restaurant the young owner committed suicide
leaving his wife with two children because he had no customers because
of the impoverished state of France. I would say that a good 50% of
the other local restaurants have gone to the wall largely because of
the combination of the average French citizen not having the money to
eat out any more and the high levels of taxes imposed on them.
Principally the fact that for every 100 euros they pay in wages they
have find another 100 euros for the State.

"Lou Ravi"  wrote in message 
news:4a4f5f16$0$12622$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...

> Niether coud understand why you hadn't adopted the Euro, even though both 
> admitted that prices had rocketed since its inception, despite what the 
> government said,

Did they also admit that the euro had brought them no tangible benefits?

GDP growth has slowed under the euro, despite a rapidly rising population.

At the beginning of 2008, unemployment was at exactly the same point as it 
was when the euro was introduced. Since the recession it's increased.

Real wages have grown by a mere 0.34% a year under the euro.

At some point, people will have to start asking whether the euro is harming 
European economies.

Lou Ravi wrote:
> As is my habit two or three times a week, today I went to the local 
> restaurant in my village. It is without a doubt the best deal in the 
> Luberon and probably in Provence. 13.50 euros, with two big starters, 
> enough in themselves almost, an excellent main course well cooked and 
> interesting, a giant help yourself cheese tray, dessert, a quarter litre 
> of wine and the coffee usually thrown in.

Don't you just hate it when that  happens and then the bastards expect 
you to pay:-))

DVH wrote:
> "Lou Ravi"  wrote in message
> news:4a4f5f16$0$12622$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...
>
>> Niether coud understand why you hadn't adopted the Euro, even though
>> both admitted that prices had rocketed since its inception, despite
>> what the government said,
>
> Did they also admit that the euro had brought them no tangible
> benefits?
> GDP growth has slowed under the euro, despite a rapidly rising
> population.
> At the beginning of 2008, unemployment was at exactly the same point
> as it was when the euro was introduced. Since the recession it's
> increased.
> Real wages have grown by a mere 0.34% a year under the euro.
>
> At some point, people will have to start asking whether the euro is
> harming European economies.

Nobody cares particularly, that's politics. Of course they moan, rant 
and scream about prices just as everywhere but I would say that 
generally people think the Euro is a good thing, not for fiscal reasons, 
as you quite rightly show, but for the union of Europe and Europeans it 
brings about. In continental Europe people are generally in favour of 
European union, that is the difference with the UK/

John Bennett wrote:
> Lou Ravi wrote:
>> As is my habit two or three times a week, today I went to the local
>> restaurant in my village. It is without a doubt the best deal in the
>> Luberon and probably in Provence. 13.50 euros, with two big starters,
>> enough in themselves almost, an excellent main course well cooked and
>> interesting, a giant help yourself cheese tray, dessert, a quarter
>> litre of wine and the coffee usually thrown in.
>
> Don't you just hate it when that  happens and then the bastards expect
> you to pay:-))

No problem. If I had paid for the gentlemen present, which I would have 
gladly for the stories, it would have been only 40 Euros or so, not much 
by my standards, poor though I am by official measures.

On 4 July, 16:39, "DVH"  wrote:
> "Lou Ravi"  wrote in message
>
> news:4a4f5f16$0$12622$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...
>
> > Niether coud understand why you hadn't adopted the Euro, even though both
> > admitted that prices had rocketed since its inception, despite what the
> > government said,
>
> Did they also admit that the euro had brought them no tangible benefits?
>
> GDP growth has slowed under the euro, despite a rapidly rising population.
>
> At the beginning of 2008, unemployment was at exactly the same point as it
> was when the euro was introduced. Since the recession it's increased.
>
> Real wages have grown by a mere 0.34% a year under the euro.
>
> At some point, people will have to start asking whether the euro is harming
> European economies.

When you look at French unemployement figures as a comparison with the
UK you have to factor back in that they mainly only work a 35 hour
week and retire considerably earlier than the UK. Additionally the
countryside where many still work on small farms disguises
unemployment. Another factor hiding unemployment is the huge number of
what they call internships which provide work for unemployed college
graduates. I would think that real French unemployment is at least 20%
higher than declared.

On 2009-07-04, Johnny-Boy wrote:

> As is my habit two or three times a week, today I went to the local
> restaurant in my village. It is without a doubt the best deal in the
> Luberon and probably in Provence. 13.50 euros, with two big starters,
> enough in themselves almost, an excellent main course well cooked and
> interesting, a giant help yourself cheese tray, dessert, a quarter litre
> of wine and the coffee usually thrown in.  Needless to say it is full
> every day (about 40 covers) and many latecomersd are refused entry.

*snort*

Nothing worse than a bigoted Englishman trying to be French.

> Bon weekend ? tout le monde

This is a UK-based newsgroup, you pretentious twonk.

And it's 'week-end'.

Y.

-- 
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
AADP's 'left-wing Israeli intellectual'
	'The world is a dangerous place to live.  Not because of those who are
	evil; but because of those who do nothing about it (Albert Einstein)

"yitzhak in eretz isreal (sic)"  wrote in 
message news:025f901a$0$22120$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> On 2009-07-04, Johnny-Boy wrote:
>
>> As is my habit two or three times a week, today I went to the local
>> restaurant in my village. It is without a doubt the best deal in the
>> Luberon and probably in Provence. 13.50 euros, with two big starters,
>> enough in themselves almost, an excellent main course well cooked and
>> interesting, a giant help yourself cheese tray, dessert, a quarter litre
>> of wine and the coffee usually thrown in.  Needless to say it is full
>> every day (about 40 covers) and many latecomersd are refused entry.
>
> *snort*
>
> Nothing worse than a bigoted Englishman trying to be French.
>
>> Bon weekend ? tout le monde
>
> This is a UK-based newsgroup, you pretentious twonk.

That rules you out of it then, you sick, twisted little tosspot.

On 2009-07-05, Former BNP Councillor David Exley wrote: 
>
> "yitzhak in eretz isreal (sic)"  wrote in 
> message news:025f901a$0$22120$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>> On 2009-07-04, Johnny-Boy wrote:

>>> As is my habit two or three times a week, today I went to the local
>>> restaurant in my village. It is without a doubt the best deal in the
>>> Luberon and probably in Provence. 13.50 euros, with two big starters,
>>> enough in themselves almost, an excellent main course well cooked and
>>> interesting, a giant help yourself cheese tray, dessert, a quarter
>>> litre of wine and the coffee usually thrown in.  Needless to say it is
>>> full every day (about 40 covers) and many latecomersd are refused
>>> entry.
>>
>> *snort*
>>
>> Nothing worse than a bigoted Englishman trying to be French.
>>
>>> Bon weekend ? tout le monde
>>
>> This is a UK-based newsgroup, you pretentious twonk.

> That rules you out of it then, you sick, twisted little tosspot.

*rofl*

Oh, the irony ... 

Y.

-- 
Yitzhak Isaac Goldstein
AADP's 'left-wing Israeli intellectual'
	'The world is a dangerous place to live.  Not because of those who are
	evil; but because of those who do nothing about it (Albert Einstein)

Lou Ravi wrote:
> [...] It is only with the British that I find a difference. They 
> are very happy to be here, as one should be in this beautiful place, but 
> I never get the impression that they feel 'chez soi', at home in 
> continental Europe as the other nationalities seem to do.

	So, you talk to some continental Europeans, and they seem to be
at home in continental Europe, and then you talk to some non-continental
Europeans, and they don't?  Who would have thought it?

	I suspect that you underestimate the cultural differences that
have to be overcome.  Some people have the self-confidence to breeze
in to any situation and take part like natives;  most don't.  It's not
part of normal UK culture to drop in casually to a restaurant for lunch,
chat to strangers in a foreign language, and have a full meal culminating
in cheese and wine.  I'm happy to do it *now*, but my first couple of
holidays in France were slightly awkward.  Most of us have quite limited
French, which doesn't help.

	I think you might see something very like your experience in
reverse if a French family found themselves in an English pub, with no
real idea how to get food or what to drink, with limited English [and
few bar staff with decent French], and with everyone else seemingly at
ease.  Indeed, I've occasionally had to help tourists with very much
this sort of problem.

[...]
> The experience, once again, made me think about the attitude to Europe 
> in the UK, (and here). There seems to be something that you haven't 
> understood, the object of the EU, the assembling of peoples with a 
> common and wonderful culture who have had stupid wars for millenia who 
> can now put their energies into useful things.

	Yes, sure.  Motherhood, apple-pie.

>						 Of course the 
> organisation is full of crap, most organisations are, especially if they 
> are as big and diverse as those of the EU.

	The big difference is that the UK is one of the few countries
paying for all this.  The EU can be as corrupt as it likes if it costs
us nothing and doesn't really affect us.  Small wonder that it's popular
with the Irish [at least until recently], and with other countries who
are being paid to belong to the club.

>					     But don't throw away the baby 
> with the bathwater.

	Well, that's the danger.  Personally, I'm a europhile when it
comes to "do I like to belong to the club, and to travel to France from
time to time?", but a eurosceptic when it comes to the actual institution.
If we could get rid of "Brussels", I'd be happy on all counts.  But we
can't;  so we are being influenced by all manner of people who are either
completely faceless and unknown in the UK, or else known but not to their
advantage [the Kinnocks, Blairs, Barrosos, etc., of this world].

>		    It is up to everyone to improve the situation as 
> they may.

	Sure.  But far too many people have a vested interest in the
status quo, so it's very hard to change things.  Given that, it's not
surprising that many people in the UK want no part of it.  YMMV.

-- 
Andy Walker
Nottingham

Andy Walker wrote:
> Lou Ravi wrote:
>> [...] It is only with the British that I find a difference. They
>> are very happy to be here, as one should be in this beautiful place,
>> but I never get the impression that they feel 'chez soi', at home in
>> continental Europe as the other nationalities seem to do.
>
> So, you talk to some continental Europeans, and they seem to be
> at home in continental Europe, and then you talk to some
> non-continental Europeans, and they don't?  Who would have thought it?

There is no reason other than psychological for them to be different. Of 
coure there is hostroy and the fact that Britain is an island but it is 
not in the sense of politics or even culture that I meant it, but just 
in everyday things, the way they behave as tourists,in restaurants and 
bars etc. The language they use is the common second one for most 
tourists I see if they don't speak French, for the British it is their 
first, that should help but doesn't seem to much. In short they are 
diffident and become almost childlike sometimes.

>
> I suspect that you underestimate the cultural differences that
> have to be overcome.  Some people have the self-confidence to breeze
> in to any situation and take part like natives;  most don't.  It's not
> part of normal UK culture to drop in casually to a restaurant for
> lunch, chat to strangers in a foreign language, and have a full meal
> culminating in cheese and wine.  I'm happy to do it *now*, but my
> first couple of holidays in France were slightly awkward.  Most of us
> have quite limited French, which doesn't help.

As I say, my message wasn't particulalry about their behaviour in 
restaurants it was more an introduction to the difference I notice in 
their level of ease with their surroundings. (BTW, they do usually 
manage the full meal with wine, and a lot of the latter, and seem very 
happy that they can). They are not normal ones of course but nor are 
they for other visitors however it always seems to me (who loves people 
watching) that they are the most 'lost'. This being said, if they happen 
to be the ones on the next table with whom I strike up a conversation 
(usually by offering help if i see that they're struggling with 
something) they are always happy to talk sometimes very glad to do so 
and be able to find out somethign or other that has perplexed them since 
they arrived. So it isn't that the British are stand-offish or snobbish 
when they are here on holiday just a little more 'lost' as I say, which 
is a pity.

> I think you might see something very like your experience in
> reverse if a French family found themselves in an English pub, with no
> real idea how to get food or what to drink, with limited English [and
> few bar staff with decent French], and with everyone else seemingly at
> ease.  Indeed, I've occasionally had to help tourists with very much
> this sort of problem.

Yes I agree up to a point but the big difference is that almost anywhere 
thse days, and particulalry so in a tourist region such as here where I 
live, finding someone who speaks English isn't hard. Three out of four 
ordinary waiters in my local bar get by well enough in English, one very 
well, so I would have thought that if anything English speakers would 
have an easier time of it in France than French in the UK.

> [...]
>> The experience, once again, made me think about the attitude to
>> Europe in the UK, (and here). There seems to be something that you
>> haven't understood, the object of the EU, the assembling of peoples
>> with a common and wonderful culture who have had stupid wars for
>> millenia who can now put their energies into useful things.
>
> Yes, sure.  Motherhood, apple-pie.

Better to aim for things in life that to sit back and say "nothing can 
be done"".

>> Of course the
>> organisation is full of crap, most organisations are, especially if
>> they are as big and diverse as those of the EU.
>
> The big difference is that the UK is one of the few countries
> paying for all this.  The EU can be as corrupt as it likes if it costs
> us nothing and doesn't really affect us.

Every organisation has costs and if you are in it you are affected by 
it. This is perhaps the major problem, many ordinary people in the UK do 
not adhere to the EU idea, in great part because they are woefully 
uneducated on the matter and anti-EU sentiment is kept up by 
'newspapers' with straight banana stories, but also, of course, because 
of the history between the island and the continent. But what people 
seem to forget, or ignore, is that the continental countries also have a 
history between themselves with bloody wars and great enmities built up 
over centuries. They've decided to put all that in the past, have 
succeeded and moved on, the British seem to have trouble doing so, as 
witnessed by the continuing presense of WWII in British culture.

> Small wonder that it's
> popular with the Irish [at least until recently], and with other
> countries who are being paid to belong to the club.

They aren't being paid to be members of the club, the club is bringing 
their standard of living up to the level one should expect in a 
developed country and developed continent. Thus the entire union be 
stronger still both internally and in its relations with the world. The 
contributions to the EU are much the same as taxes. If you're rich you 
pay more, if you have reasons for deductions you get them, if you fall 
blow a certain level you are assisted.

>>      But don't throw away the baby
>> with the bathwater.
>
> Well, that's the danger.  Personally, I'm a europhile when it
> comes to "do I like to belong to the club, and to travel to France
> from time to time?", but a eurosceptic when it comes to the actual
> institution. If we could get rid of "Brussels", I'd be happy on all
> counts.  But we can't;  so we are being influenced by all manner of
> people who are either completely faceless and unknown in the UK, or
> else known but not to their advantage [the Kinnocks, Blairs,
> Barrosos, etc., of this world].

I agree that there is quite a lot of cleaning up to do, corruption, 
fiddles, waste. The rapid enlargement of recent years, with some pretty 
difficult countries to handle has tended to add to this. But the fact is 
perfectly recognised which is precisely why a constitution was proposed. 
It was rejected, quite rightly IMO though I'm in favour of a 
constitution, because it tried to do two things in the same document, 
set out the basic rights in and goals of the EU but also cross the Ts 
and dot the Is on all sorts of rules and regulations and orgaznise the 
thing a bit better. This part has been separated to become ore or less 
the Lisbon treaty, the first part has been forgotten for the moment.
The Lisbon treaty is meant to bring clarification and organisationof the 
EU sprawl, its a technical document not a philosophical one really, not 
a constitution. As you point out, there is a lot that is wrong with the 
EU but IMO there is far more that is right. It is up to member countries 
and members to each do what they can to decrease the former and increase 
the latter.

Lou Ravi wrote:
>> So, you talk to some continental Europeans, and they seem to be
>> at home in continental Europe, and then you talk to some
>> non-continental Europeans, and they don't?  Who would have thought it?
> There is no reason other than psychological for them to be different. Of 
> coure there is hostroy and the fact that Britain is an island but it is 
> not in the sense of politics or even culture that I meant it, but just 
> in everyday things, the way they behave as tourists,in restaurants and 
> bars etc.

	But that's the nature of cultural differences.  Each community
has its own habits, whether these be linguistic, culinary, sporting,
whatever.  Climate plays a role, so does history, so do many other
things.  In truth, we should be celebrating the differences -- that's
one of the things the EU is allegedly encouraging.  There is no reason
why [eg] Wales should be different culturally from England;  but it is,
and there is [equally] no reason to try to prevent that.

>	    The language they use is the common second one for most 
> tourists I see if they don't speak French, for the British it is their 
> first, that should help but doesn't seem to much.

	It doesn't.  France is a miserable place for a holiday if you
don't speak French.  Doubly miserable if you don't understand local
customs.  Restaurants and bars are the most obvious obstacles, but
transport is pretty much as bad.  [I should add that this is not my
personal experience;  I have a rusty O-level and get by adequately,
and my daughters are both fluent.  But other friends and relatives
have reported difficult times, to say the least.]

>						    In short they are 
> diffident and become almost childlike sometimes.

	Of course!  If you don't speak the native language, you feel
very vulnerable.  I'm guessing that most of the Germans and Dutch you
meet in Provence have at least the equivalent of my O-level fluency
in French, and that a good proportion of the English don't.

>> I suspect that you underestimate the cultural differences that
>> have to be overcome. [...]
> As I say, my message wasn't particulalry about their behaviour in 
> restaurants it was more an introduction to the difference I notice in 
> their level of ease with their surroundings.

	Understood.  But you would get the same in all sorts of awkward
situations.  Having "gone native", I suspect that you no longer remember
how different France and Germany [in particular] are from either the UK
or Benelux or Scandinavia [for example], just as I might sometimes find
it hard to understand the difficulties that foreigners have in the UK.

>> I think you might see something very like your experience in
>> reverse if a French family found themselves in an English pub, [...]
> Yes I agree up to a point but the big difference is that almost anywhere 
> thse days, and particulalry so in a tourist region such as here where I 
> live, finding someone who speaks English isn't hard.

	It's not so much the difficulty of *finding* someone who has
adequate or good English, it's the embarrassment of needing to.

[...]
>> The big difference is that the UK is one of the few countries
>> paying for all this.  The EU can be as corrupt as it likes if it costs
>> us nothing and doesn't really affect us.
> Every organisation has costs and if you are in it you are affected by 
> it.

	But the EU is a net benefit to its poorer members.  It's very
hard in most of the UK to point to something and say "the EU has brought
about *this* benefit";  it's easy -- very easy -- in Ireland or Spain.
OTOH, we all know that there is a considerable financial cost, and there
is also a strong feeling, probably justified, that the EU understands the
UK even less than vv.

>     This is perhaps the major problem, many ordinary people in the UK do 
> not adhere to the EU idea, in great part because they are woefully 
> uneducated on the matter

	I suspect, tho' I have no proof, that ordinary people in the UK
are no less educated about the EU than ordinary people in France.

>			   and anti-EU sentiment is kept up by 
> 'newspapers' with straight banana stories,

	True;  but the fact that such stories can be believed is part of
the problem, which the EU does *nothing* to address.

>					     but also, of course, because 
> of the history between the island and the continent.

	No, no.  Firstly, there is no such "history", not in your sense.
We have fought both alongside and against France, Italy, Germany, the
Dutch and Russia, to name but a few, in the history I learned at school.
We have been involved with the continent at least since G. J. Caesar,
and as much in a positive as a negative way.  Secondly, we were just as
keen as any other EU country that there be no more wars, and that trade
be encouraged.  We voted "for Europe" in a referendum.

	The problem is not "Europe", it's the particular institutions
of the EU, for which we are paying through the nose, and which seem to
offer us nothing in return.

>							 But what people 
> seem to forget, or ignore, is that the continental countries also have a 
> history between themselves with bloody wars and great enmities built up 
> over centuries. They've decided to put all that in the past, have 
> succeeded and moved on, the British seem to have trouble doing so, as 
> witnessed by the continuing presense of WWII in British culture.

	If you want to claim success, then you'll need to wait until
there is a genuine "casus belli" that is defused by EU mediation.
Within my lifetime, much of Europe lay in ruins;  it will be another
generation before most of us have any appetite for military solutions
to our problems, with or without the EU.  Despite this, there have been
a number of quite nasty civil wars and revolutions in Europe since WW2,
luckily or otherwise involving countries outside the EU at the time.
I don't think we can yet say "couldn't happen here".  As for WW2, well
why not?  If you want to make an adventure film, you need goodies and
baddies, and fighting.  But most of the important stories were told
long ago, I don't see WW2 films or plays or TV programs in any more
profusion than, say, period dramas, or cops-and-robbers, or spies.
ISTM that you're wrong on all counts;  UK opposition to the EU is just
not of the nature that you paint.

>> Small wonder that it's
>> popular with the Irish [at least until recently], and with other
>> countries who are being paid to belong to the club.
> They aren't being paid to be members of the club, the club is bringing 
> their standard of living up to the level one should expect in a 
> developed country and developed continent.

	Re-arrange "words weasel" into a well-known phrase.  If a
poor country joins the EU and finds that, at no cost to itself, its
infrastructure has billions poured into it, practically every town
and village acquires new housing, schools, hospitals, etc., how does
that differ from being paid to belong?  Of course that's popular in
Ireland, Spain, Poland and so on.

> [...] The 
> contributions to the EU are much the same as taxes. If you're rich you 
> pay more, if you have reasons for deductions you get them, if you fall 
> blow a certain level you are assisted.

	But you aren't given the choice of joining an income-tax club.
If we were, we might find that most rich people would prefer to go it
alone, and most poor people would be v pleased to join.  Further, HMRC
can point to benefits enjoyed even by rich people -- state pensions,
the NHS, defence, etc.

[... Much snippage of stuff that I broadly agree with ...]

-- 
Andy Walker
Nottingham