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date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:39:29 -0500,
group: uk.politics.misc
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The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
Tuesday, 22 July 2008 00:00 www.daily.pk
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In Canada, even though there is a general lack of knowledge about religions other than
Christianity -such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism or Sikhism - the mistrust and fears
about Islam exceed any hostility felt against any of these religions.
Judaism and Christianity have their own historical issues, but Islam, even though it is viewed
as one of the Abrahamic religions, does not fare well in the public's perception.
This negative perception has increased since the terrorist attacks of Sept.11, 2001, and even
though this was the action of a few Muslims, all Muslims have been tarnished because of it. It
has been further exacerbated by the rhetoric and actions of the American government. The
rhetoric of the "Axis of Evil" with attacks on Muslim majority countries such as Iraq and
Afghanistan has conflated Islam, Muslims and politics.
It would be dishonest not to acknowledge that some Muslims are adding to the stereotyping, but
the blanket blaming of all Muslims is hard to overcome. As comparisons, the recent incidents of
polygamous Mormons, or the sexual abuse of children by Catholic priests, or the abuse of
aboriginal children in residential schools, has not led to any condemnation of all Mormons or
all Christians or all Catholics. This same sane approach is missing for Muslims.
One of the misperceptions is that Islam is a religion of violence. But Islam is not the only
religion that teaches that war is sometimes necessary and justified. Other religions also
openly discuss war. In the Old Testament, there is mention of righteous anger and God tells
Jews to wage war against the Canaanites. The Catholic church had St. Augustine of Hippo, who
initiated the theory of the "Just War" in the fourth century, and Hinduism's great Song of the
God, the Bhagavad Gita, is about duties that include making war when it is necessary.
All religions agree that peace should be pursued first and that there are limitations and
conditions to wage wars, but some wars are seen as just and necessary. Islam has strict
directions that women and children must be protected and trees, fields and crops must not be
damaged in a battle.
Unfortunately, it is Islam and Muslims who are seen as violent with the focus on 'jihad.' Both
the West and some Muslims have created such a mess of this that few know the central message of
Islam.
Islam does address the reasons for wars. It is permissible to fight in the defence of one's
country, one's religious community or injustices against the vulnerable. This permission to
fight is always tempered with many limitations, along with the message that to forgive or
desist is better.
As there were several battles between the fledgling community of Muslims and the tribes around
Mecca and Medina, there are passages in the Qur'an about fighting and battles.
The directions are clear about the right to defend oneself but that to go out looking for
fights is not allowed.
"Fight in God's cause against those who wage war against you, but do not commit aggression, for
God does not love aggressors ... fight against them until there is no more oppression."
And again.
"Permission to fight is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged ... those who
have been driven from their homelands ... if God had not enabled people to defend themselves
against one another, all monasteries and churches and synagogues and mosques - in all of which
God's name is abundantly extolled - would surely have been destroyed."
As for those who died in battle the Qur'an states: "Do not think of those who have been slain
in God's cause as dead. Nay, they are alive! With their Sustainer have they their sustenance
... no fear need they have nor shall they grieve ... "
Please note that there is no mention of virgins awaiting suicide bombers.
This permission to fight is seen as specific to the context of seventh century Arabia, but the
principles are applicable for all times. What is often forgotten is that fighting is against
oppression and aggression of others. It is not to be initiated merely because a people or a
country decides to do so.
It bears repeating that, over the centuries, too many countries and peoples have used religion
to justify wars for political or economic gains, but this has nothing to do with the faith
itself. What is occurring now also has more to do with material greed, power and
totalitarianism than with wars of defence or wars against injustices. For example, Laura Bush's
comment after Sept. 11, 2001, that the United States was "freeing Muslim women" in Afghanistan
by attacking the country to oust the Taliban was correctly met with cynicism.
To many of us believers, the message of Islam that we love is expressed in these verses.
"Those who spend freely whether in prosperity or in adversity, who restrain anger, and pardon
all men, verily God loves those who do good."
"Indeed if any show patience and forgive, that would truly be an exercise of courageous will
and resolution in the conduct of affairs."
"The good deed and the evil deed are not alike. Repel the evil deed with the one that is
better, then lo, he with whom you share enmity will become as though he was a bosom friend."
During these times of violence and retaliation, Muslims and non-Muslims need to be reminded of
the Qur'anic verses that demand kindness, restraint and balance.
It degrades Islam if we only focus on battles and wars, and not on living our daily lives with
love and compassion.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:39:29 -0500
author: Ramabriga
|
Re: The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
In article <386cb$48860d31$651@news.teranews.com>,
Ramabriga wrote:
> Judaism and Christianity have their own historical issues, but Islam, even
> though it is viewed as one of the Abrahamic religions, does not fare well
> in the public's perception.
For good reason. Judaism and Christianity got over their murderous
tendencies several centuries or more ago. Islam still hasn't.
date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:53:05 -0400
author: Harold Burton
|
Re: The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
On Jul 23, 7:53 pm, Harold Burton wrote:
> In article <386cb$48860d31$...@news.teranews.com>,
>
> Ramabriga wrote:
> > Judaism and Christianity have their own historical issues, but Islam, even
> > though it is viewed as one of the Abrahamic religions, does not fare well
> > in the public's perception.
>
> For good reason. Judaism and Christianity got over their murderous
> tendencies several centuries or more ago. Islam still hasn't.
Several centuries ago? I guess then it was people born and raised in
Islam who brought two world wars, who killed millions in extermination
camps, it was Muslims who attacked Pearl Harbor and bombed Hiroshima
and Nagasaki, it was Muslims who bombed London day and night, who
bombed Guernica and Berlin, it was Muslims who organized the Gulags,
and Muslims who bombed Shangai, wiped out millions of Natives in the
Americas, and hanged Blacks in the South of the USA.
date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:38:27 -0700 (PDT)
author: Viejo Vizcacha
|
Re: The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
"Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
news:51cca7a0-2303-4f7e-ade4-a53a08061718@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 23, 7:53 pm, Harold Burton wrote:
> In article <386cb$48860d31$...@news.teranews.com>,
>
> Ramabriga wrote:
> > Judaism and Christianity have their own historical issues, but Islam,
> > even
> > though it is viewed as one of the Abrahamic religions, does not fare
> > well
> > in the public's perception.
>
> For good reason. Judaism and Christianity got over their murderous
> tendencies several centuries or more ago. Islam still hasn't.
Several centuries ago? I guess then it was people born and raised in
Islam who brought two world wars, who killed millions in extermination
camps, it was Muslims who attacked Pearl Harbor and bombed Hiroshima
and Nagasaki, it was Muslims who bombed London day and night, who
bombed Guernica and Berlin, it was Muslims who organized the Gulags,
and Muslims who bombed Shangai, wiped out millions of Natives in the
Americas, and hanged Blacks in the South of the USA.
**************************
None of these were done because of religion, or had anything todo with
religion. Germany (for example) was also a Christian nation; Hiroshima was
not bombed because it was full of Buddhists; almost all American blacks are
at least nominally Christian.
As the previous poster pointed out, Christianity and Judaism dropped the
idea that it was OK to kill somebody simply because they are a different
religion several centuries ago. Unfortunately, this idea is still common in
the Islamic religion; hence suicide bombers (for example).
HTH
date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:59:38 +1000
author: Peter Webb
|
Re: The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
On Jul 23, 8:59 pm, "Peter Webb"
wrote:
> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>
> news:51cca7a0-2303-4f7e-ade4-a53a08061718@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 23, 7:53 pm, Harold Burton wrote:
>
> > In article <386cb$48860d31$...@news.teranews.com>,
>
> > Ramabriga wrote:
> > > Judaism and Christianity have their own historical issues, but Islam,
> > > even
> > > though it is viewed as one of the Abrahamic religions, does not fare
> > > well
> > > in the public's perception.
>
> > For good reason. Judaism and Christianity got over their murderous
> > tendencies several centuries or more ago. Islam still hasn't.
>
> Several centuries ago? I guess then it was people born and raised in
> Islam who brought two world wars, who killed millions in extermination
> camps, it was Muslims who attacked Pearl Harbor and bombed Hiroshima
> and Nagasaki, it was Muslims who bombed London day and night, who
> bombed Guernica and Berlin, it was Muslims who organized the Gulags,
> and Muslims who bombed Shangai, wiped out millions of Natives in the
> Americas, and hanged Blacks in the South of the USA.
>
> **************************
> None of these were done because of religion, or had anything todo with
> religion. Germany (for example) was also a Christian nation; Hiroshima was
> not bombed because it was full of Buddhists; almost all American blacks are
> at least nominally Christian.
>
And yet, not being Muslims did not help the victims of non Muslims
murderers. And most of those things were done because of religion.
Most of these people were born and raised, and educated in religious
values. Pol Pot went to a Catholic school, and so did Fidel Castro.
Stalin studied to become a priest of the Orthodox church. Goebbels was
raised in the Catholic church which is where he learned to hate Jews.
Also in the Catholic church was raised Ante Pavelic, the head of the
Croatian collaborators with the Nazis. Most of the murderers in
occupied Palestine are fervent religious Jews. The Japanese in WWII
were followers of a religion that had their emperor as a demi god
whose ancestors were the sun and the moon. Apartheid was supported by
religious texts, and so was each side of the Irish conflict.
Yet, no Muslims involved in perpetrating any of these crimes.
V.V.
> As the previous poster pointed out, Christianity and Judaism dropped the
> idea that it was OK to kill somebody simply because they are a different
> religion several centuries ago. Unfortunately, this idea is still common in
> the Islamic religion; hence suicide bombers (for example).
>
> HTH
date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:16:58 -0700 (PDT)
author: Viejo Vizcacha
|
Re: The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
From Viejo Vizcacha , in uk.politics.misc on Wed,
23 Jul 2008 18:16:58 -0700 (PDT) :
>On Jul 23, 8:59Â pm, "Peter Webb"
> wrote:
>> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>>
>> news:51cca7a0-2303-4f7e-ade4-a53a08061718@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jul 23, 7:53 pm, Harold Burton wrote:
>>
>> > In article <386cb$48860d31$...@news.teranews.com>,
>>
>> > Ramabriga wrote:
>> > > Judaism and Christianity have their own historical issues, but Islam,
>> > > even
>> > > though it is viewed as one of the Abrahamic religions, does not fare
>> > > well
>> > > in the public's perception.
>>
>> > For good reason. Judaism and Christianity got over their murderous
>> > tendencies several centuries or more ago. Islam still hasn't.
>>
>> Several centuries ago? I guess then it was people born and raised in
>> Islam who brought two world wars, who killed millions in extermination
>> camps, it was Muslims who attacked Pearl Harbor and bombed Hiroshima
>> and Nagasaki, it was Muslims who bombed London day and night, who
>> bombed Guernica and Berlin, it was Muslims who organized the Gulags,
>> and Muslims who bombed Shangai, wiped out millions of Natives in the
>> Americas, and hanged Blacks in the South of the USA.
>>
>> **************************
>> None of these were done because of religion, or had anything todo with
>> religion. Germany (for example) was also a Christian nation; Hiroshima was
>> not bombed because it was full of Buddhists; almost all American blacks are
>> at least nominally Christian.
>>
>
>And yet, not being Muslims did not help the victims of non Muslims
>murderers.
Was that sentence supposed to be somehow relative to the argument?
>And most of those things were done because of religion.
>Most of these people were born and raised, and educated in religious
>values. Pol Pot went to a Catholic school, and so did Fidel Castro.
>Stalin studied to become a priest of the Orthodox church. Goebbels was
>raised in the Catholic church which is where he learned to hate Jews.
>Also in the Catholic church was raised Ante Pavelic, the head of the
>Croatian collaborators with the Nazis. Most of the murderers in
>occupied Palestine are fervent religious Jews. The Japanese in WWII
>were followers of a religion that had their emperor as a demi god
>whose ancestors were the sun and the moon. Apartheid was supported by
>religious texts, and so was each side of the Irish conflict.
In general, this is possibly the lamest excuse for the murderous barbarity
of islam, the religion of death, I have recently seen.
So Pol Pot murdered a coupla million of his countrymen because he went to a
catholic school? Are you sure it is not because he ate baked bread as a
child? That would make as much sense, and the same sort of thing applies to
most of your other 'examples'.
The closest you get to being real or not being centuries ago (as the OP
qualified it) is the Japanese in WWII, because of the militaristic aspect of
the Shintoism they practiced -- but then this was not about Shintoism
anyway.......was it?
(Check the headers, I post from Bellsouth)
FACE
>
>
>Yet, no Muslims involved in perpetrating any of these crimes.
>
>V.V.
>
>
>> As the previous poster pointed out, Christianity and Judaism dropped the
>> idea that it was OK to kill somebody simply because they are a different
>> religion several centuries ago. Unfortunately, this idea is still common in
>> the Islamic religion; hence suicide bombers (for example).
>>
>> HTH
date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:30:17 -0300
author: FACE
|
Re: The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
"Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
news:23c64348-9856-4984-ae8b-10d5bb7a20a4@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 23, 8:59 pm, "Peter Webb"
wrote:
> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>
> news:51cca7a0-2303-4f7e-ade4-a53a08061718@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 23, 7:53 pm, Harold Burton wrote:
>
> > In article <386cb$48860d31$...@news.teranews.com>,
>
> > Ramabriga wrote:
> > > Judaism and Christianity have their own historical issues, but Islam,
> > > even
> > > though it is viewed as one of the Abrahamic religions, does not fare
> > > well
> > > in the public's perception.
>
> > For good reason. Judaism and Christianity got over their murderous
> > tendencies several centuries or more ago. Islam still hasn't.
>
> Several centuries ago? I guess then it was people born and raised in
> Islam who brought two world wars, who killed millions in extermination
> camps, it was Muslims who attacked Pearl Harbor and bombed Hiroshima
> and Nagasaki, it was Muslims who bombed London day and night, who
> bombed Guernica and Berlin, it was Muslims who organized the Gulags,
> and Muslims who bombed Shangai, wiped out millions of Natives in the
> Americas, and hanged Blacks in the South of the USA.
>
> **************************
> None of these were done because of religion, or had anything todo with
> religion. Germany (for example) was also a Christian nation; Hiroshima was
> not bombed because it was full of Buddhists; almost all American blacks
> are
> at least nominally Christian.
>
And yet, not being Muslims did not help the victims of non Muslims
murderers. And most of those things were done because of religion.
*******************
No they weren't. Unless, of course, you can provide some evidence.
Most of these people were born and raised, and educated in religious
values. Pol Pot went to a Catholic school, and so did Fidel Castro.
Stalin studied to become a priest of the Orthodox church. Goebbels was
raised in the Catholic church which is where he learned to hate Jews.
Also in the Catholic church was raised Ante Pavelic, the head of the
Croatian collaborators with the Nazis. Most of the murderers in
occupied Palestine are fervent religious Jews. The Japanese in WWII
were followers of a religion that had their emperor as a demi god
whose ancestors were the sun and the moon.
*************
But none of these were done for religious reasons. The argument was not that
"no Christian was ever a murderer", it was that the Christian and Jewish
faiths rejected religion as a justification for murder several centuries
ago. In, of course, stark contrast to may followers of Islam.
Yet, no Muslims involved in perpetrating any of these crimes.
*********************
Because you selectively picked examples which did not include Muslim
perpetrators. So whats your point? That you formed a biased and
unrepresentative list?
> As the previous poster pointed out, Christianity and Judaism dropped the
> idea that it was OK to kill somebody simply because they are a different
> religion several centuries ago. Unfortunately, this idea is still common
> in
> the Islamic religion; hence suicide bombers (for example).
>
> HTH
date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 15:55:37 +1000
author: Peter Webb
|
Re: The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
On 24 Jul, 00:53, Harold Burton wrote:
> In article <386cb$48860d31$...@news.teranews.com>,
>
> Ramabriga wrote:
> > Judaism and Christianity have their own historical issues, but Islam, even
> > though it is viewed as one of the Abrahamic religions, does not fare well
> > in the public's perception.
>
> For good reason. Judaism and Christianity got over their murderous
> tendencies several centuries or more ago. Islam still hasn't.
Aren't Bush and Blair Christians?
date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 00:14:52 -0700 (PDT)
author: unknown
|
Re: The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
Ramabriga wrote:
> The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
One perception we have is that arselifters don't know how to
punctuate. Thanks for confirming that.
date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:24:46 -0700 (PDT)
author: Sir John Howard
|
Re: The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:39:29 -0500, Ramabriga
wrote:
>The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
There are NO Misperceptions:
1) Allah is Satan.
2) Satan found an unemployed drunk pedophile sitting in the desert
with his balls in the dirt masturbating. His name was Mohammad. Satan
persuaded him to start a new cult called Islam.
3) Islam is an evil-inspired destructive cult.
4) Muslims are servants of the Devil.
5) I wipe my ass with pages torn from your Quran.
date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 15:32:07 -0400
author: Patriot Games
|
Re: The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
Peter Webb wrote:
>
> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
> news:23c64348-9856-4984-ae8b-10d5bb7a20a4@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 23, 8:59 pm, "Peter Webb"
> wrote:
>> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>>
>> news:51cca7a0-2303-4f7e-ade4-a53a08061718@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jul 23, 7:53 pm, Harold Burton wrote:
>>
>> > In article <386cb$48860d31$...@news.teranews.com>,
>>
>> > Ramabriga wrote:
>> > > Judaism and Christianity have their own historical issues, but Islam,
>> > > even
>> > > though it is viewed as one of the Abrahamic religions, does not fare
>> > > well
>> > > in the public's perception.
>>
>> > For good reason. Judaism and Christianity got over their murderous
>> > tendencies several centuries or more ago. Islam still hasn't.
>>
>> Several centuries ago? I guess then it was people born and raised in
>> Islam who brought two world wars, who killed millions in extermination
>> camps, it was Muslims who attacked Pearl Harbor and bombed Hiroshima
>> and Nagasaki, it was Muslims who bombed London day and night, who
>> bombed Guernica and Berlin, it was Muslims who organized the Gulags,
>> and Muslims who bombed Shangai, wiped out millions of Natives in the
>> Americas, and hanged Blacks in the South of the USA.
>>
>> **************************
>> None of these were done because of religion, or had anything todo with
>> religion. Germany (for example) was also a Christian nation; Hiroshima
>> was
>> not bombed because it was full of Buddhists; almost all American
>> blacks are
>> at least nominally Christian.
>>
>
> And yet, not being Muslims did not help the victims of non Muslims
> murderers. And most of those things were done because of religion.
>
> *******************
> No they weren't. Unless, of course, you can provide some evidence.
>
Just below put some examples. But, of course, you are free to ignore them.
>
> Most of these people were born and raised, and educated in religious
> values. Pol Pot went to a Catholic school, and so did Fidel Castro.
> Stalin studied to become a priest of the Orthodox church. Goebbels was
> raised in the Catholic church which is where he learned to hate Jews.
> Also in the Catholic church was raised Ante Pavelic, the head of the
> Croatian collaborators with the Nazis. Most of the murderers in
> occupied Palestine are fervent religious Jews. The Japanese in WWII
> were followers of a religion that had their emperor as a demi god
> whose ancestors were the sun and the moon.
> *************
> But none of these were done for religious reasons.
They were all crimes committed by people who were taught religious
believes since childhood.
> The argument was not that "no Christian was ever a murderer",
> it was that the Christian and Jewish faiths rejected religion as
> a justification for murder several centuries ago.
Not really. Jewish murderers have killed thousands of Palestinians using
terror. Christians in Ireland have been killing each other until a few
days ago. Catholic Croatians and Orthodox Serbs only stopped killing
each other a few weeks ago.
> In, of course, stark contrast to may followers of Islam.
>
Followers of Islam, as people being deluded by the idea that there is a
god, are not better than Jews and Christians, or followers of any other
religion.
>
>
> Yet, no Muslims involved in perpetrating any of these crimes.
>
> *********************
> Because you selectively picked examples which did not include Muslim
> perpetrators. So whats your point? That you formed a biased and
> unrepresentative list?
>
Of course it did not include any crime committed in the name of Allah,
because I was arguing withj people that already knew of crimes committed
in the name of Allah, so I saw no point in bringing examples of things
that both consider crimes. Therefore, i decided to focus on things that
included people of other religions. The person I was replying had said
that "Judaism and Christianity got over their murderous tendencies
several centuries or more ago. Islam still hasn't." I dispute that, and
that is why I brought some examples of murderous tendencies among
Christians and Jews.
>
>
>> As the previous poster pointed out, Christianity and Judaism dropped the
>> idea that it was OK to kill somebody simply because they are a different
>> religion several centuries ago. Unfortunately, this idea is still
>> common in the Islamic religion; hence suicide bombers (for example).
>>
The previous poster could as well have pointed out that Laura Bush never
jumped a stop sign and never killed anyone. Both are lies. Jews and
Christians are (at least) as murderous as Muslims.
V.V.
>> HTH
>
date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 20:40:13 -0400
author: Viejo Vizcacha
|
Re: The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
Viejo Vizcacha wrote:
> Just below put some examples. But, of course, you are free to ignore them.
>
>
All Aussies like Webb resemble beer drinking lager louts like Paul Hogan and
Aussie Rules Football star "Jocko", parts of the 1980's that I would prefer
to forget.
date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 23:00:01 -0400
author: Jim
|
Re: The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
"Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
news:cc32f$48891b01$4038e7e4$17407@PRIMUS.CA...
> Peter Webb wrote:
>>
>> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>> news:23c64348-9856-4984-ae8b-10d5bb7a20a4@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jul 23, 8:59 pm, "Peter Webb"
>> wrote:
>>> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:51cca7a0-2303-4f7e-ade4-a53a08061718@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Jul 23, 7:53 pm, Harold Burton wrote:
>>>
>>> > In article <386cb$48860d31$...@news.teranews.com>,
>>>
>>> > Ramabriga wrote:
>>> > > Judaism and Christianity have their own historical issues, but
>>> > > Islam,
>>> > > even
>>> > > though it is viewed as one of the Abrahamic religions, does not fare
>>> > > well
>>> > > in the public's perception.
>>>
>>> > For good reason. Judaism and Christianity got over their murderous
>>> > tendencies several centuries or more ago. Islam still hasn't.
>>>
>>> Several centuries ago? I guess then it was people born and raised in
>>> Islam who brought two world wars, who killed millions in extermination
>>> camps, it was Muslims who attacked Pearl Harbor and bombed Hiroshima
>>> and Nagasaki, it was Muslims who bombed London day and night, who
>>> bombed Guernica and Berlin, it was Muslims who organized the Gulags,
>>> and Muslims who bombed Shangai, wiped out millions of Natives in the
>>> Americas, and hanged Blacks in the South of the USA.
>>>
>>> **************************
>>> None of these were done because of religion, or had anything todo with
>>> religion. Germany (for example) was also a Christian nation; Hiroshima
>>> was
>>> not bombed because it was full of Buddhists; almost all American blacks
>>> are
>>> at least nominally Christian.
>>>
>>
>> And yet, not being Muslims did not help the victims of non Muslims
>> murderers. And most of those things were done because of religion.
>>
>> *******************
>> No they weren't. Unless, of course, you can provide some evidence.
>>
>
> Just below put some examples. But, of course, you are free to ignore them.
>
>
>>
>> Most of these people were born and raised, and educated in religious
>> values. Pol Pot went to a Catholic school, and so did Fidel Castro.
>> Stalin studied to become a priest of the Orthodox church. Goebbels was
>> raised in the Catholic church which is where he learned to hate Jews.
>> Also in the Catholic church was raised Ante Pavelic, the head of the
>> Croatian collaborators with the Nazis. Most of the murderers in
>> occupied Palestine are fervent religious Jews. The Japanese in WWII
>> were followers of a religion that had their emperor as a demi god
>> whose ancestors were the sun and the moon.
>
>> *************
>> But none of these were done for religious reasons.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> They were all crimes committed by people who were taught religious
> believes since childhood.
>
But not done for religious reasons, and not sanctioned by their religion,
Unlike Islam.
>
>
> > The argument was not that "no Christian was ever a murderer",
> > it was that the Christian and Jewish faiths rejected religion as
> > a justification for murder several centuries ago.
>
> Not really. Jewish murderers have killed thousands of Palestinians using
> terror. Christians in Ireland have been killing each other until a few
> days ago. Catholic Croatians and Orthodox Serbs only stopped killing each
> other a few weeks ago.
>
No, the battles in Serbia have been overwelmingly between Muslims (there's
Islam again!) and Christians.
Yes, people other than Muslims kill people. But Islam is alone in that it
officially sanctions killing people purely on the basis of religion, and
Islamic religious leaders are alone in preaching that this is OK.
>
>
> > In, of course, stark contrast to may followers of Islam.
> >
>
> Followers of Islam, as people being deluded by the idea that there is a
> god, are not better than Jews and Christians, or followers of any other
> religion.
>
Definitely true.
In fact, given their prediliction for blowing themselves up on school
busses, or flying airplanes into crowded office buildings, I would say they
were considerably worse.
>
>>
>>
>> Yet, no Muslims involved in perpetrating any of these crimes.
>>
>> *********************
>> Because you selectively picked examples which did not include Muslim
>> perpetrators. So whats your point? That you formed a biased and
>> unrepresentative list?
>>
>
>
> Of course it did not include any crime committed in the name of Allah,
> because I was arguing withj people that already knew of crimes committed
> in the name of Allah, so I saw no point in bringing examples of things
> that both consider crimes. Therefore, i decided to focus on things that
> included people of other religions.
If you selectively included only crimes which weren't committed by Muslims,
you can hardly turn around and point out that none of these crimes were
perpetrated by Muslims, as if this had any significance other than you
picked biased examples.
> The person I was replying had said that "Judaism and Christianity got over
> their murderous tendencies several centuries or more ago. Islam still
> hasn't." I dispute that, and that is why I brought some examples of
> murderous tendencies among Christians and Jews.
>
So the statement that you made "Yet, no Muslims involved in perpetrating any
of these crimes." should have read "I have deliberately picked my examples
so they don't include Muslims", and nothing more?
>
>>
>>
>>> As the previous poster pointed out, Christianity and Judaism dropped the
>>> idea that it was OK to kill somebody simply because they are a different
>>> religion several centuries ago. Unfortunately, this idea is still common
>>> in the Islamic religion; hence suicide bombers (for example).
>>>
>
> The previous poster could as well have pointed out that Laura Bush never
> jumped a stop sign and never killed anyone. Both are lies. Jews and
> Christians are (at least) as murderous as Muslims.
Of course, that doesn't mean that Islam as a religion is more or less
murderous than Judaism or Christianity, which is what we are discussing.
So I won't either bother asking you for evidence, as its not the issue we
are discussing.
How many Christians do you know of the kill in the name of Christ, and then
use the Bible as justification for murder?
Any at all?
date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:18:46 +1000
author: Peter Webb
|
Re: The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
"Jim" wrote in message
news:MPG.22f30bbbbdfefe6098aef4@news.individual.net...
> Viejo Vizcacha wrote:
>> Just below put some examples. But, of course, you are free to ignore
>> them.
>>
>>
> All Aussies like Webb resemble beer drinking lager louts like Paul Hogan
> and
> Aussie Rules Football star "Jocko", parts of the 1980's that I would
> prefer
> to forget.
>
How do I resemble Paul Hogan or "Jocko" (whoever he is) ?
date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:19:48 +1000
author: Peter Webb
|
Re: The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
"Peter Webb" wrote in message
news:48897088$0$30462$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
> "Jim" wrote in message
> news:MPG.22f30bbbbdfefe6098aef4@news.individual.net...
>> Viejo Vizcacha wrote:
>>> Just below put some examples. But, of course, you are free to ignore
>>> them.
>>>
>>>
>> All Aussies like Webb resemble beer drinking lager louts like Paul Hogan
>> and
>> Aussie Rules Football star "Jocko", parts of the 1980's that I would
>> prefer
>> to forget.
>>
>
> How do I resemble Paul Hogan or "Jocko" (whoever he is) ?
For reasons I haven't been able to discern, the Yanks think "Jacko" is
"Jocko".
(Doesn't make any sense to me, either).
--
"Those who beat their swords into ploughshares will plough for those who
didn't".
>
date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 07:25:37 GMT
author: Spartan613
|
Re: The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
"Spartan613" wrote in message
news:Rdfik.22427$IK1.17548@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> "Peter Webb" wrote in message
> news:48897088$0$30462$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>>
>> "Jim" wrote in message
>> news:MPG.22f30bbbbdfefe6098aef4@news.individual.net...
>>> Viejo Vizcacha wrote:
>>>> Just below put some examples. But, of course, you are free to ignore
>>>> them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> All Aussies like Webb resemble beer drinking lager louts like Paul Hogan
>>> and
>>> Aussie Rules Football star "Jocko", parts of the 1980's that I would
>>> prefer
>>> to forget.
>>>
>>
>> How do I resemble Paul Hogan or "Jocko" (whoever he is) ?
>
> For reasons I haven't been able to discern, the Yanks think "Jacko" is
> "Jocko".
>
> (Doesn't make any sense to me, either).
>
>
> --
> "Those who beat their swords into ploughshares will plough for those who
> didn't".
>
Thanks, but I don't know who "Jacko" is either, much less how I look like
him.
date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 19:55:48 +1000
author: Peter Webb
|
Re: The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
On Jul 25, 2:18 am, "Peter Webb"
wrote:
> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>
> news:cc32f$48891b01$4038e7e4$17407@PRIMUS.CA...
>
>
>
> > Peter Webb wrote:
>
> >> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
> >>news:23c64348-9856-4984-ae8b-10d5bb7a20a4@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com.> >> On Jul 23, 8:59 pm, "Peter Webb"
> >> wrote:
> >>> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>
> >>>news:51cca7a0-2303-4f7e-ade4-a53a08061718@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> >>> On Jul 23, 7:53 pm, Harold Burton wrote:
>
> >>> > In article <386cb$48860d31$...@news.teranews.com>,
>
> >>> > Ramabriga wrote:
> >>> > > Judaism and Christianity have their own historical issues, but
> >>> > > Islam,
> >>> > > even
> >>> > > though it is viewed as one of the Abrahamic religions, does not fare
> >>> > > well
> >>> > > in the public's perception.
>
> >>> > For good reason. Judaism and Christianity got over their murderous
> >>> > tendencies several centuries or more ago. Islam still hasn't.
>
> >>> Several centuries ago? I guess then it was people born and raised in
> >>> Islam who brought two world wars, who killed millions in extermination
> >>> camps, it was Muslims who attacked Pearl Harbor and bombed Hiroshima
> >>> and Nagasaki, it was Muslims who bombed London day and night, who
> >>> bombed Guernica and Berlin, it was Muslims who organized the Gulags,
> >>> and Muslims who bombed Shangai, wiped out millions of Natives in the
> >>> Americas, and hanged Blacks in the South of the USA.
>
> >>> **************************
> >>> None of these were done because of religion, or had anything todo with
> >>> religion. Germany (for example) was also a Christian nation; Hiroshima
> >>> was
> >>> not bombed because it was full of Buddhists; almost all American blacks
> >>> are
> >>> at least nominally Christian.
>
> >> And yet, not being Muslims did not help the victims of non Muslims
> >> murderers. And most of those things were done because of religion.
>
> >> *******************
> >> No they weren't. Unless, of course, you can provide some evidence.
>
> > Just below put some examples. But, of course, you are free to ignore them.
>
> >> Most of these people were born and raised, and educated in religious
> >> values. Pol Pot went to a Catholic school, and so did Fidel Castro.
> >> Stalin studied to become a priest of the Orthodox church. Goebbels was
> >> raised in the Catholic church which is where he learned to hate Jews.
> >> Also in the Catholic church was raised Ante Pavelic, the head of the
> >> Croatian collaborators with the Nazis. Most of the murderers in
> >> occupied Palestine are fervent religious Jews. The Japanese in WWII
> >> were followers of a religion that had their emperor as a demi god
> >> whose ancestors were the sun and the moon.
>
> >> *************
> >> But none of these were done for religious reasons.
>
> > They were all crimes committed by people who were taught religious
> > believes since childhood.
>
> But not done for religious reasons, and not sanctioned by their religion,
>
> Unlike Islam.
>
>
>
> > > The argument was not that "no Christian was ever a murderer",
> > > it was that the Christian and Jewish faiths rejected religion as
> > > a justification for murder several centuries ago.
>
> > Not really. Jewish murderers have killed thousands of Palestinians using
> > terror. Christians in Ireland have been killing each other until a few
> > days ago. Catholic Croatians and Orthodox Serbs only stopped killing each
> > other a few weeks ago.
>
> No, the battles in Serbia have been overwelmingly between Muslims (there's
> Islam again!) and Christians.
>
> Yes, people other than Muslims kill people. But Islam is alone in that it
> officially sanctions killing people purely on the basis of religion, and
> Islamic religious leaders are alone in preaching that this is OK.
>
>
>
> > > In, of course, stark contrast to may followers of Islam.
>
> > Followers of Islam, as people being deluded by the idea that there is a
> > god, are not better than Jews and Christians, or followers of any other
> > religion.
>
> Definitely true.
>
> In fact, given their prediliction for blowing themselves up on school
> busses, or flying airplanes into crowded office buildings, I would say they
> were considerably worse.
>
>
>
>
>
> >> Yet, no Muslims involved in perpetrating any of these crimes.
>
> >> *********************
> >> Because you selectively picked examples which did not include Muslim
> >> perpetrators. So whats your point? That you formed a biased and
> >> unrepresentative list?
>
> > Of course it did not include any crime committed in the name of Allah,
> > because I was arguing withj people that already knew of crimes committed
> > in the name of Allah, so I saw no point in bringing examples of things
> > that both consider crimes. Therefore, i decided to focus on things that
> > included people of other religions.
>
> If you selectively included only crimes which weren't committed by Muslims,
> you can hardly turn around and point out that none of these crimes were
> perpetrated by Muslims, as if this had any significance other than you
> picked biased examples.
>
> > The person I was replying had said that "Judaism and Christianity got over
> > their murderous tendencies several centuries or more ago. Islam still
> > hasn't." I dispute that, and that is why I brought some examples of
> > murderous tendencies among Christians and Jews.
>
> So the statement that you made "Yet, no Muslims involved in perpetrating any
> of these crimes." should have read "I have deliberately picked my examples
> so they don't include Muslims", and nothing more?
>
>
>
> >>> As the previous poster pointed out, Christianity and Judaism dropped the
> >>> idea that it was OK to kill somebody simply because they are a different
> >>> religion several centuries ago. Unfortunately, this idea is still common
> >>> in the Islamic religion; hence suicide bombers (for example).
>
> > The previous poster could as well have pointed out that Laura Bush never
> > jumped a stop sign and never killed anyone. Both are lies. Jews and
> > Christians are (at least) as murderous as Muslims.
>
> Of course, that doesn't mean that Islam as a religion is more or less
> murderous than Judaism or Christianity, which is what we are discussing.
>
> So I won't either bother asking you for evidence, as its not the issue we
> are discussing.
>
> How many Christians do you know of the kill in the name of Christ, and then
> use the Bible as justification for murder?
>
> Any at all?
The tens of millions of Americans who still today support the wars in
Iraq and Afghanistan.
V.V.
date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 07:46:40 -0700 (PDT)
author: Viejo Vizcacha
|
Re: The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
"Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
news:894d9081-24b0-4537-9263-a82b5fcc1c5a@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 25, 2:18 am, "Peter Webb"
wrote:
> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>
> news:cc32f$48891b01$4038e7e4$17407@PRIMUS.CA...
>
>
>
> > Peter Webb wrote:
>
> >> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
> >>news:23c64348-9856-4984-ae8b-10d5bb7a20a4@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> >> On Jul 23, 8:59 pm, "Peter Webb"
> >> wrote:
> >>> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>
> >>>news:51cca7a0-2303-4f7e-ade4-a53a08061718@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> >>> On Jul 23, 7:53 pm, Harold Burton wrote:
>
> >>> > In article <386cb$48860d31$...@news.teranews.com>,
>
> >>> > Ramabriga wrote:
> >>> > > Judaism and Christianity have their own historical issues, but
> >>> > > Islam,
> >>> > > even
> >>> > > though it is viewed as one of the Abrahamic religions, does not
> >>> > > fare
> >>> > > well
> >>> > > in the public's perception.
>
> >>> > For good reason. Judaism and Christianity got over their murderous
> >>> > tendencies several centuries or more ago. Islam still hasn't.
>
> >>> Several centuries ago? I guess then it was people born and raised in
> >>> Islam who brought two world wars, who killed millions in extermination
> >>> camps, it was Muslims who attacked Pearl Harbor and bombed Hiroshima
> >>> and Nagasaki, it was Muslims who bombed London day and night, who
> >>> bombed Guernica and Berlin, it was Muslims who organized the Gulags,
> >>> and Muslims who bombed Shangai, wiped out millions of Natives in the
> >>> Americas, and hanged Blacks in the South of the USA.
>
> >>> **************************
> >>> None of these were done because of religion, or had anything todo with
> >>> religion. Germany (for example) was also a Christian nation; Hiroshima
> >>> was
> >>> not bombed because it was full of Buddhists; almost all American
> >>> blacks
> >>> are
> >>> at least nominally Christian.
>
> >> And yet, not being Muslims did not help the victims of non Muslims
> >> murderers. And most of those things were done because of religion.
>
> >> *******************
> >> No they weren't. Unless, of course, you can provide some evidence.
>
> > Just below put some examples. But, of course, you are free to ignore
> > them.
>
> >> Most of these people were born and raised, and educated in religious
> >> values. Pol Pot went to a Catholic school, and so did Fidel Castro.
> >> Stalin studied to become a priest of the Orthodox church. Goebbels was
> >> raised in the Catholic church which is where he learned to hate Jews.
> >> Also in the Catholic church was raised Ante Pavelic, the head of the
> >> Croatian collaborators with the Nazis. Most of the murderers in
> >> occupied Palestine are fervent religious Jews. The Japanese in WWII
> >> were followers of a religion that had their emperor as a demi god
> >> whose ancestors were the sun and the moon.
>
> >> *************
> >> But none of these were done for religious reasons.
>
> > They were all crimes committed by people who were taught religious
> > believes since childhood.
>
> But not done for religious reasons, and not sanctioned by their religion,
>
> Unlike Islam.
>
>
>
> > > The argument was not that "no Christian was ever a murderer",
> > > it was that the Christian and Jewish faiths rejected religion as
> > > a justification for murder several centuries ago.
>
> > Not really. Jewish murderers have killed thousands of Palestinians using
> > terror. Christians in Ireland have been killing each other until a few
> > days ago. Catholic Croatians and Orthodox Serbs only stopped killing
> > each
> > other a few weeks ago.
>
> No, the battles in Serbia have been overwelmingly between Muslims (there's
> Islam again!) and Christians.
>
> Yes, people other than Muslims kill people. But Islam is alone in that it
> officially sanctions killing people purely on the basis of religion, and
> Islamic religious leaders are alone in preaching that this is OK.
>
>
>
> > > In, of course, stark contrast to may followers of Islam.
>
> > Followers of Islam, as people being deluded by the idea that there is a
> > god, are not better than Jews and Christians, or followers of any other
> > religion.
>
> Definitely true.
>
> In fact, given their prediliction for blowing themselves up on school
> busses, or flying airplanes into crowded office buildings, I would say
> they
> were considerably worse.
>
>
>
>
>
> >> Yet, no Muslims involved in perpetrating any of these crimes.
>
> >> *********************
> >> Because you selectively picked examples which did not include Muslim
> >> perpetrators. So whats your point? That you formed a biased and
> >> unrepresentative list?
>
> > Of course it did not include any crime committed in the name of Allah,
> > because I was arguing withj people that already knew of crimes committed
> > in the name of Allah, so I saw no point in bringing examples of things
> > that both consider crimes. Therefore, i decided to focus on things that
> > included people of other religions.
>
> If you selectively included only crimes which weren't committed by
> Muslims,
> you can hardly turn around and point out that none of these crimes were
> perpetrated by Muslims, as if this had any significance other than you
> picked biased examples.
>
> > The person I was replying had said that "Judaism and Christianity got
> > over
> > their murderous tendencies several centuries or more ago. Islam still
> > hasn't." I dispute that, and that is why I brought some examples of
> > murderous tendencies among Christians and Jews.
>
> So the statement that you made "Yet, no Muslims involved in perpetrating
> any
> of these crimes." should have read "I have deliberately picked my examples
> so they don't include Muslims", and nothing more?
>
>
>
> >>> As the previous poster pointed out, Christianity and Judaism dropped
> >>> the
> >>> idea that it was OK to kill somebody simply because they are a
> >>> different
> >>> religion several centuries ago. Unfortunately, this idea is still
> >>> common
> >>> in the Islamic religion; hence suicide bombers (for example).
>
> > The previous poster could as well have pointed out that Laura Bush never
> > jumped a stop sign and never killed anyone. Both are lies. Jews and
> > Christians are (at least) as murderous as Muslims.
>
> Of course, that doesn't mean that Islam as a religion is more or less
> murderous than Judaism or Christianity, which is what we are discussing.
>
> So I won't either bother asking you for evidence, as its not the issue we
> are discussing.
>
> How many Christians do you know of the kill in the name of Christ, and
> then
> use the Bible as justification for murder?
>
> Any at all?
The tens of millions of Americans who still today support the wars in
Iraq and Afghanistan.
****************************
If there are tens of millions, perhaps you can produce one single American
who has killed someone in Iraq or Afghanistan and done so in the name of
Christ, and used the Bible as justification for murder? Just one will do.
date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:00:39 +1000
author: Peter Webb
|
Re: The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
On Jul 27, 9:00 pm, "Peter Webb"
wrote:
> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>
> news:894d9081-24b0-4537-9263-a82b5fcc1c5a@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 25, 2:18 am, "Peter Webb"
>
>
>
> wrote:
> > "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>
> >news:cc32f$48891b01$4038e7e4$17407@PRIMUS.CA...
>
> > > Peter Webb wrote:
>
> > >> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
> > >>news:23c64348-9856-4984-ae8b-10d5bb7a20a4@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > >> On Jul 23, 8:59 pm, "Peter Webb"
> > >> wrote:
> > >>> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>
> > >>>news:51cca7a0-2303-4f7e-ade4-a53a08061718@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > >>> On Jul 23, 7:53 pm, Harold Burton wrote:
>
> > >>> > In article <386cb$48860d31$...@news.teranews.com>,
>
> > >>> > Ramabriga wrote:
> > >>> > > Judaism and Christianity have their own historical issues, but
> > >>> > > Islam,
> > >>> > > even
> > >>> > > though it is viewed as one of the Abrahamic religions, does not
> > >>> > > fare
> > >>> > > well
> > >>> > > in the public's perception.
>
> > >>> > For good reason. Judaism and Christianity got over their murderous
> > >>> > tendencies several centuries or more ago. Islam still hasn't.
>
> > >>> Several centuries ago? I guess then it was people born and raised in
> > >>> Islam who brought two world wars, who killed millions in extermination
> > >>> camps, it was Muslims who attacked Pearl Harbor and bombed Hiroshima
> > >>> and Nagasaki, it was Muslims who bombed London day and night, who
> > >>> bombed Guernica and Berlin, it was Muslims who organized the Gulags> > >>> and Muslims who bombed Shangai, wiped out millions of Natives in the
> > >>> Americas, and hanged Blacks in the South of the USA.
>
> > >>> **************************
> > >>> None of these were done because of religion, or had anything todo with
> > >>> religion. Germany (for example) was also a Christian nation; Hiroshima
> > >>> was
> > >>> not bombed because it was full of Buddhists; almost all American
> > >>> blacks
> > >>> are
> > >>> at least nominally Christian.
>
> > >> And yet, not being Muslims did not help the victims of non Muslims
> > >> murderers. And most of those things were done because of religion.
>
> > >> *******************
> > >> No they weren't. Unless, of course, you can provide some evidence.
>
> > > Just below put some examples. But, of course, you are free to ignore
> > > them.
>
> > >> Most of these people were born and raised, and educated in religious
> > >> values. Pol Pot went to a Catholic school, and so did Fidel Castro.
> > >> Stalin studied to become a priest of the Orthodox church. Goebbels was
> > >> raised in the Catholic church which is where he learned to hate Jews> > >> Also in the Catholic church was raised Ante Pavelic, the head of the
> > >> Croatian collaborators with the Nazis. Most of the murderers in
> > >> occupied Palestine are fervent religious Jews. The Japanese in WWII
> > >> were followers of a religion that had their emperor as a demi god
> > >> whose ancestors were the sun and the moon.
>
> > >> *************
> > >> But none of these were done for religious reasons.
>
> > > They were all crimes committed by people who were taught religious
> > > believes since childhood.
>
> > But not done for religious reasons, and not sanctioned by their religion,
>
> > Unlike Islam.
>
> > > > The argument was not that "no Christian was ever a murderer",
> > > > it was that the Christian and Jewish faiths rejected religion as
> > > > a justification for murder several centuries ago.
>
> > > Not really. Jewish murderers have killed thousands of Palestinians using
> > > terror. Christians in Ireland have been killing each other until a few
> > > days ago. Catholic Croatians and Orthodox Serbs only stopped killing
> > > each
> > > other a few weeks ago.
>
> > No, the battles in Serbia have been overwelmingly between Muslims (there's
> > Islam again!) and Christians.
>
> > Yes, people other than Muslims kill people. But Islam is alone in that it
> > officially sanctions killing people purely on the basis of religion, and
> > Islamic religious leaders are alone in preaching that this is OK.
>
> > > > In, of course, stark contrast to may followers of Islam.
>
> > > Followers of Islam, as people being deluded by the idea that there is a
> > > god, are not better than Jews and Christians, or followers of any other
> > > religion.
>
> > Definitely true.
>
> > In fact, given their prediliction for blowing themselves up on school
> > busses, or flying airplanes into crowded office buildings, I would say
> > they
> > were considerably worse.
>
> > >> Yet, no Muslims involved in perpetrating any of these crimes.
>
> > >> *********************
> > >> Because you selectively picked examples which did not include Muslim
> > >> perpetrators. So whats your point? That you formed a biased and
> > >> unrepresentative list?
>
> > > Of course it did not include any crime committed in the name of Allah> > > because I was arguing withj people that already knew of crimes committed
> > > in the name of Allah, so I saw no point in bringing examples of things
> > > that both consider crimes. Therefore, i decided to focus on things that
> > > included people of other religions.
>
> > If you selectively included only crimes which weren't committed by
> > Muslims,
> > you can hardly turn around and point out that none of these crimes were
> > perpetrated by Muslims, as if this had any significance other than you
> > picked biased examples.
>
> > > The person I was replying had said that "Judaism and Christianity got
> > > over
> > > their murderous tendencies several centuries or more ago. Islam still
> > > hasn't." I dispute that, and that is why I brought some examples of
> > > murderous tendencies among Christians and Jews.
>
> > So the statement that you made "Yet, no Muslims involved in perpetrating
> > any
> > of these crimes." should have read "I have deliberately picked my examples
> > so they don't include Muslims", and nothing more?
>
> > >>> As the previous poster pointed out, Christianity and Judaism dropped
> > >>> the
> > >>> idea that it was OK to kill somebody simply because they are a
> > >>> different
> > >>> religion several centuries ago. Unfortunately, this idea is still
> > >>> common
> > >>> in the Islamic religion; hence suicide bombers (for example).
>
> > > The previous poster could as well have pointed out that Laura Bush never
> > > jumped a stop sign and never killed anyone. Both are lies. Jews and
> > > Christians are (at least) as murderous as Muslims.
>
> > Of course, that doesn't mean that Islam as a religion is more or less
> > murderous than Judaism or Christianity, which is what we are discussing> > So I won't either bother asking you for evidence, as its not the issue we
> > are discussing.
>
> > How many Christians do you know of the kill in the name of Christ, and
> > then
> > use the Bible as justification for murder?
>
> > Any at all?
>
> The tens of millions of Americans who still today support the wars in
> Iraq and Afghanistan.
>
> ****************************
> If there are tens of millions, perhaps you can produce one single American
> who has killed someone in Iraq or Afghanistan and done so in the name of
> Christ, and used the Bible as justification for murder? Just one will do.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1016-01.htm
V.V.
date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:06:18 -0700 (PDT)
author: Viejo Vizcacha
|
Re: The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
Yes, I've noticed that too.
On Jul 24, 11:24 pm, Sir John Howard wrote:
> Ramabriga wrote:
> > The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
>
> One perception we have is that arselifters don't know how to
> punctuate. Thanks for confirming that.
date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 21:33:38 -0700 (PDT)
author: Dean Jones
|
Re: The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
"Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
news:9b9e1134-6546-4cd8-bcd8-7522c0b780c1@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 27, 9:00 pm, "Peter Webb"
wrote:
> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>
> news:894d9081-24b0-4537-9263-a82b5fcc1c5a@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 25, 2:18 am, "Peter Webb"
>
>
>
> wrote:
> > "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>
> >news:cc32f$48891b01$4038e7e4$17407@PRIMUS.CA...
>
> > > Peter Webb wrote:
>
> > >> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
> > >>news:23c64348-9856-4984-ae8b-10d5bb7a20a4@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > >> On Jul 23, 8:59 pm, "Peter Webb"
> > >> wrote:
> > >>> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>
> > >>>news:51cca7a0-2303-4f7e-ade4-a53a08061718@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > >>> On Jul 23, 7:53 pm, Harold Burton wrote:
>
> > >>> > In article <386cb$48860d31$...@news.teranews.com>,
>
> > >>> > Ramabriga wrote:
> > >>> > > Judaism and Christianity have their own historical issues, but
> > >>> > > Islam,
> > >>> > > even
> > >>> > > though it is viewed as one of the Abrahamic religions, does not
> > >>> > > fare
> > >>> > > well
> > >>> > > in the public's perception.
>
> > >>> > For good reason. Judaism and Christianity got over their murderous
> > >>> > tendencies several centuries or more ago. Islam still hasn't.
>
> > >>> Several centuries ago? I guess then it was people born and raised in
> > >>> Islam who brought two world wars, who killed millions in
> > >>> extermination
> > >>> camps, it was Muslims who attacked Pearl Harbor and bombed Hiroshima
> > >>> and Nagasaki, it was Muslims who bombed London day and night, who
> > >>> bombed Guernica and Berlin, it was Muslims who organized the Gulags,
> > >>> and Muslims who bombed Shangai, wiped out millions of Natives in the
> > >>> Americas, and hanged Blacks in the South of the USA.
>
> > >>> **************************
> > >>> None of these were done because of religion, or had anything todo
> > >>> with
> > >>> religion. Germany (for example) was also a Christian nation;
> > >>> Hiroshima
> > >>> was
> > >>> not bombed because it was full of Buddhists; almost all American
> > >>> blacks
> > >>> are
> > >>> at least nominally Christian.
>
> > >> And yet, not being Muslims did not help the victims of non Muslims
> > >> murderers. And most of those things were done because of religion.
>
> > >> *******************
> > >> No they weren't. Unless, of course, you can provide some evidence.
>
> > > Just below put some examples. But, of course, you are free to ignore
> > > them.
>
> > >> Most of these people were born and raised, and educated in religious
> > >> values. Pol Pot went to a Catholic school, and so did Fidel Castro.
> > >> Stalin studied to become a priest of the Orthodox church. Goebbels
> > >> was
> > >> raised in the Catholic church which is where he learned to hate Jews.
> > >> Also in the Catholic church was raised Ante Pavelic, the head of the
> > >> Croatian collaborators with the Nazis. Most of the murderers in
> > >> occupied Palestine are fervent religious Jews. The Japanese in WWII
> > >> were followers of a religion that had their emperor as a demi god
> > >> whose ancestors were the sun and the moon.
>
> > >> *************
> > >> But none of these were done for religious reasons.
>
> > > They were all crimes committed by people who were taught religious
> > > believes since childhood.
>
> > But not done for religious reasons, and not sanctioned by their
> > religion,
>
> > Unlike Islam.
>
> > > > The argument was not that "no Christian was ever a murderer",
> > > > it was that the Christian and Jewish faiths rejected religion as
> > > > a justification for murder several centuries ago.
>
> > > Not really. Jewish murderers have killed thousands of Palestinians
> > > using
> > > terror. Christians in Ireland have been killing each other until a few
> > > days ago. Catholic Croatians and Orthodox Serbs only stopped killing
> > > each
> > > other a few weeks ago.
>
> > No, the battles in Serbia have been overwelmingly between Muslims
> > (there's
> > Islam again!) and Christians.
>
> > Yes, people other than Muslims kill people. But Islam is alone in that
> > it
> > officially sanctions killing people purely on the basis of religion, and
> > Islamic religious leaders are alone in preaching that this is OK.
>
> > > > In, of course, stark contrast to may followers of Islam.
>
> > > Followers of Islam, as people being deluded by the idea that there is
> > > a
> > > god, are not better than Jews and Christians, or followers of any
> > > other
> > > religion.
>
> > Definitely true.
>
> > In fact, given their prediliction for blowing themselves up on school
> > busses, or flying airplanes into crowded office buildings, I would say
> > they
> > were considerably worse.
>
> > >> Yet, no Muslims involved in perpetrating any of these crimes.
>
> > >> *********************
> > >> Because you selectively picked examples which did not include Muslim
> > >> perpetrators. So whats your point? That you formed a biased and
> > >> unrepresentative list?
>
> > > Of course it did not include any crime committed in the name of Allah,
> > > because I was arguing withj people that already knew of crimes
> > > committed
> > > in the name of Allah, so I saw no point in bringing examples of things
> > > that both consider crimes. Therefore, i decided to focus on things
> > > that
> > > included people of other religions.
>
> > If you selectively included only crimes which weren't committed by
> > Muslims,
> > you can hardly turn around and point out that none of these crimes were
> > perpetrated by Muslims, as if this had any significance other than you
> > picked biased examples.
>
> > > The person I was replying had said that "Judaism and Christianity got
> > > over
> > > their murderous tendencies several centuries or more ago. Islam still
> > > hasn't." I dispute that, and that is why I brought some examples of
> > > murderous tendencies among Christians and Jews.
>
> > So the statement that you made "Yet, no Muslims involved in perpetrating
> > any
> > of these crimes." should have read "I have deliberately picked my
> > examples
> > so they don't include Muslims", and nothing more?
>
> > >>> As the previous poster pointed out, Christianity and Judaism dropped
> > >>> the
> > >>> idea that it was OK to kill somebody simply because they are a
> > >>> different
> > >>> religion several centuries ago. Unfortunately, this idea is still
> > >>> common
> > >>> in the Islamic religion; hence suicide bombers (for example).
>
> > > The previous poster could as well have pointed out that Laura Bush
> > > never
> > > jumped a stop sign and never killed anyone. Both are lies. Jews and
> > > Christians are (at least) as murderous as Muslims.
>
> > Of course, that doesn't mean that Islam as a religion is more or less
> > murderous than Judaism or Christianity, which is what we are discussing.
>
> > So I won't either bother asking you for evidence, as its not the issue
> > we
> > are discussing.
>
> > How many Christians do you know of the kill in the name of Christ, and
> > then
> > use the Bible as justification for murder?
>
> > Any at all?
>
> The tens of millions of Americans who still today support the wars in
> Iraq and Afghanistan.
>
> ****************************
> If there are tens of millions, perhaps you can produce one single American
> who has killed someone in Iraq or Afghanistan and done so in the name of
> Christ, and used the Bible as justification for murder? Just one will do.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1016-01.htm
*****************************
Sorry, doesn't confirm that he either killed in the name of Christ, or used
the Bible as justification for murder. It just states that he is a Christian
who believes God is on his side. Very different.
Still waiting for at least one of the "millions" you claim.
date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 15:50:19 +1000
author: Peter Webb
|
Re: The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
Peter Webb wrote:
> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
> news:9b9e1134-6546-4cd8-bcd8-7522c0b780c1@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 27, 9:00 pm, "Peter Webb"
> wrote:
> > "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
> >
> > news:894d9081-24b0-4537-9263-a82b5fcc1c5a@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jul 25, 2:18 am, "Peter Webb"
> >
> > wrote:
> > > "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
> >
> > >news:cc32f$48891b01$4038e7e4$17407@PRIMUS.CA...
> >
> > > > Peter Webb wrote:
> >
> > > >> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
> > > >>news:23c64348-9856-4984-ae8b-10d5bb7a20a4@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > > >> On Jul 23, 8:59 pm, "Peter Webb"
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
> >
> > > >>>news:51cca7a0-2303-4f7e-ade4-a53a08061718@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > > >>> On Jul 23, 7:53 pm, Harold Burton wrote:
> >
> > > >>> > In article <386cb$48860d31$...@news.teranews.com>,
> >
> > > >>> > Ramabriga wrote:
> > > >>> > > Judaism and Christianity have their own historical issues, but
> > > >>> > > Islam,
> > > >>> > > even
> > > >>> > > though it is viewed as one of the Abrahamic religions, does not
> > > >>> > > fare
> > > >>> > > well
> > > >>> > > in the public's perception.
> >
> > > >>> > For good reason. Judaism and Christianity got over their murderous
> > > >>> > tendencies several centuries or more ago. Islam still hasn't.
> >
> > > >>> Several centuries ago? I guess then it was people born and raised in
> > > >>> Islam who brought two world wars, who killed millions in
> > > >>> extermination
> > > >>> camps, it was Muslims who attacked Pearl Harbor and bombed Hiroshima
> > > >>> and Nagasaki, it was Muslims who bombed London day and night, who
> > > >>> bombed Guernica and Berlin, it was Muslims who organized the Gulags,
> > > >>> and Muslims who bombed Shangai, wiped out millions of Natives in the
> > > >>> Americas, and hanged Blacks in the South of the USA.
> >
> > > >>> **************************
> > > >>> None of these were done because of religion, or had anything todo
> > > >>> with
> > > >>> religion. Germany (for example) was also a Christian nation;
> > > >>> Hiroshima
> > > >>> was
> > > >>> not bombed because it was full of Buddhists; almost all American
> > > >>> blacks
> > > >>> are
> > > >>> at least nominally Christian.
> >
> > > >> And yet, not being Muslims did not help the victims of non Muslims
> > > >> murderers. And most of those things were done because of religion.
> >
> > > >> *******************
> > > >> No they weren't. Unless, of course, you can provide some evidence.
> >
> > > > Just below put some examples. But, of course, you are free to ignore
> > > > them.
> >
> > > >> Most of these people were born and raised, and educated in religious
> > > >> values. Pol Pot went to a Catholic school, and so did Fidel Castro.
> > > >> Stalin studied to become a priest of the Orthodox church. Goebbels
> > > >> was
> > > >> raised in the Catholic church which is where he learned to hate Jews.
> > > >> Also in the Catholic church was raised Ante Pavelic, the head of the
> > > >> Croatian collaborators with the Nazis. Most of the murderers in
> > > >> occupied Palestine are fervent religious Jews. The Japanese in WWII
> > > >> were followers of a religion that had their emperor as a demi god
> > > >> whose ancestors were the sun and the moon.
> >
> > > >> *************
> > > >> But none of these were done for religious reasons.
> >
> > > > They were all crimes committed by people who were taught religious
> > > > believes since childhood.
> >
> > > But not done for religious reasons, and not sanctioned by their
> > > religion,
> >
> > > Unlike Islam.
> >
> > > > > The argument was not that "no Christian was ever a murderer",
> > > > > it was that the Christian and Jewish faiths rejected religion as
> > > > > a justification for murder several centuries ago.
> >
> > > > Not really. Jewish murderers have killed thousands of Palestinians
> > > > using
> > > > terror. Christians in Ireland have been killing each other until a few
> > > > days ago. Catholic Croatians and Orthodox Serbs only stopped killing
> > > > each
> > > > other a few weeks ago.
> >
> > > No, the battles in Serbia have been overwelmingly between Muslims
> > > (there's
> > > Islam again!) and Christians.
> >
> > > Yes, people other than Muslims kill people. But Islam is alone in that
> > > it
> > > officially sanctions killing people purely on the basis of religion, and
> > > Islamic religious leaders are alone in preaching that this is OK.
> >
> > > > > In, of course, stark contrast to may followers of Islam.
> >
> > > > Followers of Islam, as people being deluded by the idea that there is
> > > > a
> > > > god, are not better than Jews and Christians, or followers of any
> > > > other
> > > > religion.
> >
> > > Definitely true.
> >
> > > In fact, given their prediliction for blowing themselves up on school
> > > busses, or flying airplanes into crowded office buildings, I would say
> > > they
> > > were considerably worse.
> >
> > > >> Yet, no Muslims involved in perpetrating any of these crimes.
> >
> > > >> *********************
> > > >> Because you selectively picked examples which did not include Muslim
> > > >> perpetrators. So whats your point? That you formed a biased and
> > > >> unrepresentative list?
> >
> > > > Of course it did not include any crime committed in the name of Allah,
> > > > because I was arguing withj people that already knew of crimes
> > > > committed
> > > > in the name of Allah, so I saw no point in bringing examples of things
> > > > that both consider crimes. Therefore, i decided to focus on things
> > > > that
> > > > included people of other religions.
> >
> > > If you selectively included only crimes which weren't committed by
> > > Muslims,
> > > you can hardly turn around and point out that none of these crimes were
> > > perpetrated by Muslims, as if this had any significance other than you
> > > picked biased examples.
> >
> > > > The person I was replying had said that "Judaism and Christianity got
> > > > over
> > > > their murderous tendencies several centuries or more ago. Islam still
> > > > hasn't." I dispute that, and that is why I brought some examples of
> > > > murderous tendencies among Christians and Jews.
> >
> > > So the statement that you made "Yet, no Muslims involved in perpetrating
> > > any
> > > of these crimes." should have read "I have deliberately picked my
> > > examples
> > > so they don't include Muslims", and nothing more?
> >
> > > >>> As the previous poster pointed out, Christianity and Judaism dropped
> > > >>> the
> > > >>> idea that it was OK to kill somebody simply because they are a
> > > >>> different
> > > >>> religion several centuries ago. Unfortunately, this idea is still
> > > >>> common
> > > >>> in the Islamic religion; hence suicide bombers (for example).
> >
> > > > The previous poster could as well have pointed out that Laura Bush
> > > > never
> > > > jumped a stop sign and never killed anyone. Both are lies. Jews and
> > > > Christians are (at least) as murderous as Muslims.
> >
> > > Of course, that doesn't mean that Islam as a religion is more or less
> > > murderous than Judaism or Christianity, which is what we are discussing.
> >
> > > So I won't either bother asking you for evidence, as its not the issue
> > > we
> > > are discussing.
> >
> > > How many Christians do you know of the kill in the name of Christ, and
> > > then
> > > use the Bible as justification for murder?
> >
> > > Any at all?
> >
> > The tens of millions of Americans who still today support the wars in
> > Iraq and Afghanistan.
> >
> > ****************************
> > If there are tens of millions, perhaps you can produce one single American
> > who has killed someone in Iraq or Afghanistan and done so in the name of
> > Christ, and used the Bible as justification for murder? Just one will do.
>
>
> http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1016-01.htm
>
> *****************************
> Sorry, doesn't confirm that he either killed in the name of Christ, or used
> the Bible as justification for murder. It just states that he is a Christian
> who believes God is on his side. Very different.
>
> Still waiting for at least one of the "millions" you claim.
You'll be waiting for a very long time, Peter. The liar is a dhimmi.
date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 04:24:42 -0700 (PDT)
author: Sir John Howard
|
Re: The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
Peter Webb wrote:
>
> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
> news:9b9e1134-6546-4cd8-bcd8-7522c0b780c1@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 27, 9:00 pm, "Peter Webb"
> wrote:
>> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>>
>> news:894d9081-24b0-4537-9263-a82b5fcc1c5a@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jul 25, 2:18 am, "Peter Webb"
>>
>>
>>
>> wrote:
>> > "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>>
>> >news:cc32f$48891b01$4038e7e4$17407@PRIMUS.CA...
>>
>> > > Peter Webb wrote:
>>
>> > >> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>> >
>> >>news:23c64348-9856-4984-ae8b-10d5bb7a20a4@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > >> On Jul 23, 8:59 pm, "Peter Webb"
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >>> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>>
>> >
>> >>>news:51cca7a0-2303-4f7e-ade4-a53a08061718@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > >>> On Jul 23, 7:53 pm, Harold Burton wrote:
>>
>> > >>> > In article <386cb$48860d31$...@news.teranews.com>,
>>
>> > >>> > Ramabriga wrote:
>> > >>> > > Judaism and Christianity have their own historical issues, but
>> > >>> > > Islam,
>> > >>> > > even
>> > >>> > > though it is viewed as one of the Abrahamic religions, does not
>> > >>> > > fare
>> > >>> > > well
>> > >>> > > in the public's perception.
>>
>> > >>> > For good reason. Judaism and Christianity got over their
>> murderous
>> > >>> > tendencies several centuries or more ago. Islam still hasn't.
>>
>> > >>> Several centuries ago? I guess then it was people born and
>> raised in
>> > >>> Islam who brought two world wars, who killed millions in > >>>
>> extermination
>> > >>> camps, it was Muslims who attacked Pearl Harbor and bombed
>> Hiroshima
>> > >>> and Nagasaki, it was Muslims who bombed London day and night, who
>> > >>> bombed Guernica and Berlin, it was Muslims who organized the
>> Gulags,
>> > >>> and Muslims who bombed Shangai, wiped out millions of Natives in
>> the
>> > >>> Americas, and hanged Blacks in the South of the USA.
>>
>> > >>> **************************
>> > >>> None of these were done because of religion, or had anything
>> todo > >>> with
>> > >>> religion. Germany (for example) was also a Christian nation; >
>> >>> Hiroshima
>> > >>> was
>> > >>> not bombed because it was full of Buddhists; almost all American
>> > >>> blacks
>> > >>> are
>> > >>> at least nominally Christian.
>>
>> > >> And yet, not being Muslims did not help the victims of non Muslims
>> > >> murderers. And most of those things were done because of religion.
>>
>> > >> *******************
>> > >> No they weren't. Unless, of course, you can provide some evidence.
>>
>> > > Just below put some examples. But, of course, you are free to ignore
>> > > them.
>>
>> > >> Most of these people were born and raised, and educated in religious
>> > >> values. Pol Pot went to a Catholic school, and so did Fidel Castro.
>> > >> Stalin studied to become a priest of the Orthodox church.
>> Goebbels > >> was
>> > >> raised in the Catholic church which is where he learned to hate
>> Jews.
>> > >> Also in the Catholic church was raised Ante Pavelic, the head of the
>> > >> Croatian collaborators with the Nazis. Most of the murderers in
>> > >> occupied Palestine are fervent religious Jews. The Japanese in WWII
>> > >> were followers of a religion that had their emperor as a demi god
>> > >> whose ancestors were the sun and the moon.
>>
>> > >> *************
>> > >> But none of these were done for religious reasons.
>>
>> > > They were all crimes committed by people who were taught religious
>> > > believes since childhood.
>>
>> > But not done for religious reasons, and not sanctioned by their >
>> religion,
>>
>> > Unlike Islam.
>>
>> > > > The argument was not that "no Christian was ever a murderer",
>> > > > it was that the Christian and Jewish faiths rejected religion as
>> > > > a justification for murder several centuries ago.
>>
>> > > Not really. Jewish murderers have killed thousands of Palestinians
>> > > using
>> > > terror. Christians in Ireland have been killing each other until a
>> few
>> > > days ago. Catholic Croatians and Orthodox Serbs only stopped killing
>> > > each
>> > > other a few weeks ago.
>>
>> > No, the battles in Serbia have been overwelmingly between Muslims >
>> (there's
>> > Islam again!) and Christians.
>>
>> > Yes, people other than Muslims kill people. But Islam is alone in
>> that > it
>> > officially sanctions killing people purely on the basis of religion,
>> and
>> > Islamic religious leaders are alone in preaching that this is OK.
>>
>> > > > In, of course, stark contrast to may followers of Islam.
>>
>> > > Followers of Islam, as people being deluded by the idea that there
>> is > > a
>> > > god, are not better than Jews and Christians, or followers of any
>> > > other
>> > > religion.
>>
>> > Definitely true.
>>
>> > In fact, given their prediliction for blowing themselves up on school
>> > busses, or flying airplanes into crowded office buildings, I would say
>> > they
>> > were considerably worse.
>>
>> > >> Yet, no Muslims involved in perpetrating any of these crimes.
>>
>> > >> *********************
>> > >> Because you selectively picked examples which did not include Muslim
>> > >> perpetrators. So whats your point? That you formed a biased and
>> > >> unrepresentative list?
>>
>> > > Of course it did not include any crime committed in the name of
>> Allah,
>> > > because I was arguing withj people that already knew of crimes > >
>> committed
>> > > in the name of Allah, so I saw no point in bringing examples of
>> things
>> > > that both consider crimes. Therefore, i decided to focus on things
>> > > that
>> > > included people of other religions.
>>
>> > If you selectively included only crimes which weren't committed by
>> > Muslims,
>> > you can hardly turn around and point out that none of these crimes were
>> > perpetrated by Muslims, as if this had any significance other than you
>> > picked biased examples.
>>
>> > > The person I was replying had said that "Judaism and Christianity got
>> > > over
>> > > their murderous tendencies several centuries or more ago. Islam still
>> > > hasn't." I dispute that, and that is why I brought some examples of
>> > > murderous tendencies among Christians and Jews.
>>
>> > So the statement that you made "Yet, no Muslims involved in
>> perpetrating
>> > any
>> > of these crimes." should have read "I have deliberately picked my >
>> examples
>> > so they don't include Muslims", and nothing more?
>>
>> > >>> As the previous poster pointed out, Christianity and Judaism
>> dropped
>> > >>> the
>> > >>> idea that it was OK to kill somebody simply because they are a
>> > >>> different
>> > >>> religion several centuries ago. Unfortunately, this idea is still
>> > >>> common
>> > >>> in the Islamic religion; hence suicide bombers (for example).
>>
>> > > The previous poster could as well have pointed out that Laura Bush
>> > > never
>> > > jumped a stop sign and never killed anyone. Both are lies. Jews and
>> > > Christians are (at least) as murderous as Muslims.
>>
>> > Of course, that doesn't mean that Islam as a religion is more or less
>> > murderous than Judaism or Christianity, which is what we are
>> discussing.
>>
>> > So I won't either bother asking you for evidence, as its not the
>> issue > we
>> > are discussing.
>>
>> > How many Christians do you know of the kill in the name of Christ, and
>> > then
>> > use the Bible as justification for murder?
>>
>> > Any at all?
>>
>> The tens of millions of Americans who still today support the wars in
>> Iraq and Afghanistan.
>>
>> ****************************
>> If there are tens of millions, perhaps you can produce one single
>> American
>> who has killed someone in Iraq or Afghanistan and done so in the name of
>> Christ, and used the Bible as justification for murder? Just one will do.
>
>
> http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1016-01.htm
>
> *****************************
> Sorry, doesn't confirm that he either killed in the name of Christ, or
> used the Bible as justification for murder. It just states that he is a
> Christian who believes God is on his side. Very different.
But a Christian who has been involved in almost every military action
taken by the US government in the last 25 years, and done so as a member
of the military. And a member of the military, and even more in a
country like the US, is nothing more than a terrorist with a pension
plan, and paid vacations.
But, since it appears you prefer Christians who kill just a few at a
time, then I have today's winner.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jOAQKzY-aOBqDspFkEAV_ZO65vZAD9273AOG2
It confirms what many already suspected: Nobody, absolutely nobody has
killed more Christians than other Christians. It would seem that to any
Christian there is nothing worse than other Christians.
V.V.
>
> Still waiting for at least one of the "millions" you claim.
>
>
date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:43:45 -0400
author: Viejo Vizcacha
|
Re: The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
"Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
news:7f1e2$488e3c68$cf703c42$31404@PRIMUS.CA...
> Peter Webb wrote:
>>
>> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>> news:9b9e1134-6546-4cd8-bcd8-7522c0b780c1@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jul 27, 9:00 pm, "Peter Webb"
>> wrote:
>>> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:894d9081-24b0-4537-9263-a82b5fcc1c5a@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Jul 25, 2:18 am, "Peter Webb"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> wrote:
>>> > "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>>>
>>> >news:cc32f$48891b01$4038e7e4$17407@PRIMUS.CA...
>>>
>>> > > Peter Webb wrote:
>>>
>>> > >> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>>> >
>>> >>news:23c64348-9856-4984-ae8b-10d5bb7a20a4@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> > >> On Jul 23, 8:59 pm, "Peter Webb"
>>> > >> wrote:
>>> > >>> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>>>
>>> >
>>> >>>news:51cca7a0-2303-4f7e-ade4-a53a08061718@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> > >>> On Jul 23, 7:53 pm, Harold Burton
>>> > >>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > >>> > In article <386cb$48860d31$...@news.teranews.com>,
>>>
>>> > >>> > Ramabriga wrote:
>>> > >>> > > Judaism and Christianity have their own historical issues, but
>>> > >>> > > Islam,
>>> > >>> > > even
>>> > >>> > > though it is viewed as one of the Abrahamic religions, does
>>> > >>> > > not
>>> > >>> > > fare
>>> > >>> > > well
>>> > >>> > > in the public's perception.
>>>
>>> > >>> > For good reason. Judaism and Christianity got over their
>>> murderous
>>> > >>> > tendencies several centuries or more ago. Islam still hasn't.
>>>
>>> > >>> Several centuries ago? I guess then it was people born and
>>> raised in
>>> > >>> Islam who brought two world wars, who killed millions in > >>>
>>> extermination
>>> > >>> camps, it was Muslims who attacked Pearl Harbor and bombed
>>> Hiroshima
>>> > >>> and Nagasaki, it was Muslims who bombed London day and night, who
>>> > >>> bombed Guernica and Berlin, it was Muslims who organized the
>>> Gulags,
>>> > >>> and Muslims who bombed Shangai, wiped out millions of Natives in
>>> the
>>> > >>> Americas, and hanged Blacks in the South of the USA.
>>>
>>> > >>> **************************
>>> > >>> None of these were done because of religion, or had anything
>>> todo > >>> with
>>> > >>> religion. Germany (for example) was also a Christian nation; >
>>> >>> Hiroshima
>>> > >>> was
>>> > >>> not bombed because it was full of Buddhists; almost all American
>>> > >>> blacks
>>> > >>> are
>>> > >>> at least nominally Christian.
>>>
>>> > >> And yet, not being Muslims did not help the victims of non Muslims
>>> > >> murderers. And most of those things were done because of religion.
>>>
>>> > >> *******************
>>> > >> No they weren't. Unless, of course, you can provide some evidence.
>>>
>>> > > Just below put some examples. But, of course, you are free to ignore
>>> > > them.
>>>
>>> > >> Most of these people were born and raised, and educated in
>>> > >> religious
>>> > >> values. Pol Pot went to a Catholic school, and so did Fidel Castro.
>>> > >> Stalin studied to become a priest of the Orthodox church.
>>> Goebbels > >> was
>>> > >> raised in the Catholic church which is where he learned to hate
>>> Jews.
>>> > >> Also in the Catholic church was raised Ante Pavelic, the head of
>>> > >> the
>>> > >> Croatian collaborators with the Nazis. Most of the murderers in
>>> > >> occupied Palestine are fervent religious Jews. The Japanese in WWII
>>> > >> were followers of a religion that had their emperor as a demi god
>>> > >> whose ancestors were the sun and the moon.
>>>
>>> > >> *************
>>> > >> But none of these were done for religious reasons.
>>>
>>> > > They were all crimes committed by people who were taught religious
>>> > > believes since childhood.
>>>
>>> > But not done for religious reasons, and not sanctioned by their >
>>> religion,
>>>
>>> > Unlike Islam.
>>>
>>> > > > The argument was not that "no Christian was ever a murderer",
>>> > > > it was that the Christian and Jewish faiths rejected religion as
>>> > > > a justification for murder several centuries ago.
>>>
>>> > > Not really. Jewish murderers have killed thousands of Palestinians
>>> > > using
>>> > > terror. Christians in Ireland have been killing each other until a
>>> few
>>> > > days ago. Catholic Croatians and Orthodox Serbs only stopped killing
>>> > > each
>>> > > other a few weeks ago.
>>>
>>> > No, the battles in Serbia have been overwelmingly between Muslims >
>>> (there's
>>> > Islam again!) and Christians.
>>>
>>> > Yes, people other than Muslims kill people. But Islam is alone in
>>> that > it
>>> > officially sanctions killing people purely on the basis of religion,
>>> and
>>> > Islamic religious leaders are alone in preaching that this is OK.
>>>
>>> > > > In, of course, stark contrast to may followers of Islam.
>>>
>>> > > Followers of Islam, as people being deluded by the idea that there
>>> is > > a
>>> > > god, are not better than Jews and Christians, or followers of any
>>> > > other
>>> > > religion.
>>>
>>> > Definitely true.
>>>
>>> > In fact, given their prediliction for blowing themselves up on school
>>> > busses, or flying airplanes into crowded office buildings, I would say
>>> > they
>>> > were considerably worse.
>>>
>>> > >> Yet, no Muslims involved in perpetrating any of these crimes.
>>>
>>> > >> *********************
>>> > >> Because you selectively picked examples which did not include
>>> > >> Muslim
>>> > >> perpetrators. So whats your point? That you formed a biased and
>>> > >> unrepresentative list?
>>>
>>> > > Of course it did not include any crime committed in the name of
>>> Allah,
>>> > > because I was arguing withj people that already knew of crimes > >
>>> committed
>>> > > in the name of Allah, so I saw no point in bringing examples of
>>> things
>>> > > that both consider crimes. Therefore, i decided to focus on things
>>> > > that
>>> > > included people of other religions.
>>>
>>> > If you selectively included only crimes which weren't committed by
>>> > Muslims,
>>> > you can hardly turn around and point out that none of these crimes
>>> > were
>>> > perpetrated by Muslims, as if this had any significance other than you
>>> > picked biased examples.
>>>
>>> > > The person I was replying had said that "Judaism and Christianity
>>> > > got
>>> > > over
>>> > > their murderous tendencies several centuries or more ago. Islam
>>> > > still
>>> > > hasn't." I dispute that, and that is why I brought some examples of
>>> > > murderous tendencies among Christians and Jews.
>>>
>>> > So the statement that you made "Yet, no Muslims involved in
>>> perpetrating
>>> > any
>>> > of these crimes." should have read "I have deliberately picked my >
>>> examples
>>> > so they don't include Muslims", and nothing more?
>>>
>>> > >>> As the previous poster pointed out, Christianity and Judaism
>>> dropped
>>> > >>> the
>>> > >>> idea that it was OK to kill somebody simply because they are a
>>> > >>> different
>>> > >>> religion several centuries ago. Unfortunately, this idea is still
>>> > >>> common
>>> > >>> in the Islamic religion; hence suicide bombers (for example).
>>>
>>> > > The previous poster could as well have pointed out that Laura Bush
>>> > > never
>>> > > jumped a stop sign and never killed anyone. Both are lies. Jews and
>>> > > Christians are (at least) as murderous as Muslims.
>>>
>>> > Of course, that doesn't mean that Islam as a religion is more or less
>>> > murderous than Judaism or Christianity, which is what we are
>>> discussing.
>>>
>>> > So I won't either bother asking you for evidence, as its not the
>>> issue > we
>>> > are discussing.
>>>
>>> > How many Christians do you know of the kill in the name of Christ, and
>>> > then
>>> > use the Bible as justification for murder?
>>>
>>> > Any at all?
>>>
>>> The tens of millions of Americans who still today support the wars in
>>> Iraq and Afghanistan.
>>>
>>> ****************************
>>> If there are tens of millions, perhaps you can produce one single
>>> American
>>> who has killed someone in Iraq or Afghanistan and done so in the name of
>>> Christ, and used the Bible as justification for murder? Just one will
>>> do.
>>
>>
>> http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1016-01.htm
>>
>> *****************************
>> Sorry, doesn't confirm that he either killed in the name of Christ, or
>> used the Bible as justification for murder. It just states that he is a
>> Christian who believes God is on his side. Very different.
>
>
> But a Christian who has been involved in almost every military action
> taken by the US government in the last 25 years, and done so as a member
> of the military. And a member of the military, and even more in a country
> like the US, is nothing more than a terrorist with a pension plan, and
> paid vacations.
>
Lame.
> But, since it appears you prefer Christians who kill just a few at a time,
> then I have today's winner.
>
> http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jOAQKzY-aOBqDspFkEAV_ZO65vZAD9273AOG2
>
Does not support your argument.
> It confirms what many already suspected: Nobody, absolutely nobody has
> killed more Christians than other Christians. It would seem that to any
> Christian there is nothing worse than other Christians.
>
Clearly farcical.
Firstly, this has nothing to do with your claim.
Secondly, its obviously wrong. Its hard to believe that "any Christian"
thinks there is no religion worse than Christianity. I would have thought
that most, if they had any preference at all, would prefer other Christians
to Muslims as neighbours.
My suggestion: stop making ridiculous claims; think about what you say
before you post it in future.
HTH
> V.V.
>
>
>
>>
>> Still waiting for at least one of the "millions" you claim.
>>
date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:07:32 +1000
author: Peter Webb
|
Re: The Misperceptions About Muslim's and Islam
On Jul 28, 9:07 pm, "Peter Webb"
wrote:
> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>
> news:7f1e2$488e3c68$cf703c42$31404@PRIMUS.CA...
>
>
>
> > Peter Webb wrote:
>
> >> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
> >>news:9b9e1134-6546-4cd8-bcd8-7522c0b780c1@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com.> >> On Jul 27, 9:00 pm, "Peter Webb"
> >> wrote:
> >>> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>
> >>>news:894d9081-24b0-4537-9263-a82b5fcc1c5a@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> >>> On Jul 25, 2:18 am, "Peter Webb"
>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> > "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>
> >>> >news:cc32f$48891b01$4038e7e4$17407@PRIMUS.CA...
>
> >>> > > Peter Webb wrote:
>
> >>> > >> "Viejo Vizcacha" wrote in message
>
> >>> >>news:23c64348-9856-4984-ae8b-10d5bb7a20a4@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >>> > >> On Jul 23, 8:59 pm, "Peter Webb"
> >>> > >& | |