Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
35%". You can read the article at:

= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm

Now, there have been a few different interpretations of the
information presented in this article, and some shots have been taken
at its validity, but the bottom line is that the numbers are provided
by the British government, and what they show is that their "crackdown
on gun ownership" isn't working. The increase in gun violence in the
U.K. seems to reflect the conventional wisdom of the American gun
culture: laws against gun ownership only serves to keep guns out of
the hands of the law-abiding, and creates a ready stock of victims for
society's predators.

Many of you may already be familiar with the work of John Lott and
Gary Kleck. Both are scholars who followed different routes to come to
the conclusion that more guns means less crime. In fact, More Guns,
Less Crime" is the title of Lott's book, which uses statistics to show
that areas where it is easier to obtain concealed carry permits have
less violent crime. Kleck used surveys and interviews to demonstrate
that the vast number of firearms uses are defensive, as opposed to
being criminal assaults, and that most successful defensive uses of
firearms do not even result in a shot being fired. Merely the showing
of the weapon is frequently sufficient to deter an attacker.

When you think about it, it makes sense. A criminal, like anyone else,
generally thinks in rational terms, and the risk of his being harmed
by attempting to attack someone makes the assault more expensive to
him; therefore, he's more likely to try and get what he wants another
way, whether that means stealing from unoccupied residences or getting
an honest job. Yes, there will always be crimes of passion and
mentally unbalanced people, but there is no utopia: we'll always have
some sort of crime, no matter how harsh the laws we put in place.

But when you make gun ownership illegal, what you do is increase the
price of having a weapon. For instance, the price of a handgun might
go from a couple hundred bucks and the inconvenience of filling out
some paperwork to an even higher price measured in dollars, plus the
risk of fines and/or imprisonment if you get caught. That prices
honest, ordinary folks out of the market. After all, someone who
shoots as a hobby or has a weapon for defense because she might be
attacked someday doesn't perceive the weapon as being very important
to their everyday happiness.

But a criminal is a different matter. He may believe that his need for
the weapon is inevitable, and has already demonstrated that the risk
of fines and imprisonment doesn't impress them very much. So, the gun
becomes more reasonably priced to the criminal than the honest folk.
What happens then? Market forces inevitably operate, and guns become
more prevalent in the hands of criminals, and less so among the
general public.

So, what do you get when you pass new, get-tough laws against gun
ownership? Less guns, more crime.

http://www.theinternetparty.org/commentary/index.php?section_type=com&cat_name=Gun+Control&td=20030218000128&page_sort=

"Mr Smith"  wrote in message 
news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
> 35%". You can read the article at:
>
> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm

It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm crimes 
per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people murdered with a gun 
and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think the US has a 
better outcome?

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 00:28:19 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
wrote:

>
>"Mr Smith"  wrote in message 
>news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>
>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>
>It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm crimes 
>per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people murdered with a gun 
>and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think the US has a 
>better outcome?
>
Since they outlawed private ownership of handguns ten years ago, the
criminal misuse of them should be going down not up, right? 

                                            Bill Smith

"Blinky Bill"  wrote in message 
news:DeQmj.7332$421.5461@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Mr Smith"  wrote in message 
> news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>
>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>
> It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm crimes 
> per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people murdered with a 
> gun and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think the US has 
> a better outcome?

Adjust for population and try again. Then consider that the UK has your 
wonderful gun control laws, and gun crime and violent crime is high and 
getting higher, then tell us how wonderful gun control is at reducing gun 
crime and violent crime rates.

"Blinky Bill"  wrote in message 
news:DeQmj.7332$421.5461@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Mr Smith"  wrote in message 
> news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>
>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>
> It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm crimes 
> per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people murdered with a 
> gun and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think the US has 
> a better outcome?

25% of UK's citizens experience crime victimization last year.
That's several times the US rate.

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 00:28:19 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
wrote:

>
>"Mr Smith"  wrote in message 
>news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>
>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>
>It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm crimes 
>per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people murdered with a gun 
>and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think the US has a 
>better outcome?
>
Because its fascinating to note that that guns are effectively banned
in the UK, and they still experience 27 firearms crimes per day.

In the US, we can shoot back.
Btw,,,it says 30 homicides a day. Which does NOT equate to 30 murders
a day. 
Homicide means "man killing".  Either legal or illegal.

A fair number of those 30 per day are the good guys blowing away the
bad guys.

Words mean something. Use them properly. Else we will think yu are
trying to spin something ..propaganda

Gunner

"Bill Smith"  wrote in message
news:hllnp39bshhq5hb3v8pa1ft8d38b58fbub@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 00:28:19 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Mr Smith"  wrote in message
>>news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>>
>>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>>
>>It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm crimes
>>per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people murdered with a
>>gun
>>and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think the US has a
>>better outcome?
>>
> Since they outlawed private ownership of handguns ten years ago, the
> criminal misuse of them should be going down not up, right?
>

Since most US states  permitted CCW, the US crime rate should be lower, not
10 times higher, shouldn't they?

"Scout"  wrote in message
news:tzRmj.1139$e46.22@trnddc04...
>
> "Blinky Bill"  wrote in message
> news:DeQmj.7332$421.5461@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>
>> "Mr Smith"  wrote in message
>> news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>>
>>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>>
>> It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm
>> crimes per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people murdered
>> with a gun and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think
>> the US has a better outcome?
>
> Adjust for population and try again.

About a factor of 5 - you do the maths.

> Then consider that the UK has your wonderful gun control laws, and gun
> crime and violent crime is high and getting higher, then tell us how
> wonderful gun control is at reducing gun crime and violent crime rates.

If gun crime in the UK is high, then gun crime in  the US is astronomical.


>
>

"RSweeney"  wrote in message
news:_bqdnf_djapYjwHanZ2dnUVZ_vamnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "Blinky Bill"  wrote in message
> news:DeQmj.7332$421.5461@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>
>> "Mr Smith"  wrote in message
>> news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>>
>>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>>
>> It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm
>> crimes per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people murdered
>> with a gun and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think
>> the US has a better outcome?
>
> 25% of UK's citizens experience crime victimization last year.
> That's several times the US rate.


The subject was gun crime rates - US is many times higher than UK

"Gunner"  wrote in message
news:hncop3d3cv2dkp591rgfe6dsno2d07k9cc@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 00:28:19 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Mr Smith"  wrote in message
>>news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>>
>>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>>
>>It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm crimes
>>per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people murdered with a
>>gun
>>and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think the US has a
>>better outcome?
>>
> Because its fascinating to note that that guns are effectively banned
> in the UK, and they still experience 27 firearms crimes per day.
>
> In the US, we can shoot back.

> Btw,,,it says 30 homicides a day. Which does NOT equate to 30 murders
> a day.

I didn't claim  it did, stupid

> Homicide means "man killing".  Either legal or illegal.

And the number of justifiable homicides in the US is about 200 per year, a
little over 0.5 per day. It doesn't really have much impact on the 30 per
day figure.

>
> A fair number of those 30 per day are the good guys blowing away the
> bad guys.

Absolute rubbish - about 0.5 per day - negligible.

>
> Words mean something. Use them properly.

Like you use "fair number" - you are pathetic.

> Else we will think yu are
> trying to spin something ..propaganda

You are showing your own hand at that.

And meanwhile you ignore 1230 firearm crimes per day as opposed to 27 in a
country with about one-fifth of your population - who is trying to apply
spin.

Blinky Bill wrote:
> "Bill Smith"  wrote in message
> news:hllnp39bshhq5hb3v8pa1ft8d38b58fbub@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 00:28:19 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "Mr Smith"  wrote in message
>>> news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>>>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>>>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>>>
>>>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>>> It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm crimes
>>> per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people murdered with a
>>> gun
>>> and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think the US has a
>>> better outcome?
>>>
>> Since they outlawed private ownership of handguns ten years ago, the
>> criminal misuse of them should be going down not up, right?
>>
> 
> Since most US states  permitted CCW, the US crime rate should be lower, not
> 10 times higher, shouldn't they?
> 
> 
> 

it is tho , if you read the figures in american

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:55:18 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
wrote:

>
>"Bill Smith"  wrote in message
>news:hllnp39bshhq5hb3v8pa1ft8d38b58fbub@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 00:28:19 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Mr Smith"  wrote in message
>>>news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>>>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>>>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>>>
>>>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>>>
>>>It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm crimes
>>>per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people murdered with a
>>>gun
>>>and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think the US has a
>>>better outcome?
>>>
>> Since they outlawed private ownership of handguns ten years ago, the
>> criminal misuse of them should be going down not up, right?
>>
>
>Since most US states  permitted CCW, the US crime rate should be lower, not
>10 times higher, shouldn't they?
>

Only a very small percentage of those eligible, something less than
2%, actually have CCLs. I know some would tell you that they have had
a measurable effect on the crime rate, but I don't buy it. Several
States keep records of the criminal misuse of guns by CCL holders and
it has been found to be insignificant, even anti-gunners here will
admit that. 

Now, please answer my question. 

                                        Bill Smith

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:55:18 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
wrote:

>
>"Bill Smith"  wrote in message
>news:hllnp39bshhq5hb3v8pa1ft8d38b58fbub@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 00:28:19 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Mr Smith"  wrote in message
>>>news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>>>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>>>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>>>
>>>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>>>
>>>It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm crimes
>>>per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people murdered with a
>>>gun
>>>and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think the US has a
>>>better outcome?
>>>
>> Since they outlawed private ownership of handguns ten years ago, the
>> criminal misuse of them should be going down not up, right?
>>
>
>Since most US states  permitted CCW, the US crime rate should be lower, not
>10 times higher, shouldn't they?

It is. Its been falling for 10 yrs.

Next question?

Gunner
>
>

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:55:53 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
wrote:

>
>"Scout"  wrote in message
>news:tzRmj.1139$e46.22@trnddc04...
>>
>> "Blinky Bill"  wrote in message
>> news:DeQmj.7332$421.5461@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>
>>> "Mr Smith"  wrote in message
>>> news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>>>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>>>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>>>
>>>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>>>
>>> It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm
>>> crimes per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people murdered
>>> with a gun and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think
>>> the US has a better outcome?
>>
>> Adjust for population and try again.
>
>About a factor of 5 - you do the maths.
>
>> Then consider that the UK has your wonderful gun control laws, and gun
>> crime and violent crime is high and getting higher, then tell us how
>> wonderful gun control is at reducing gun crime and violent crime rates.
>
>If gun crime in the UK is high, then gun crime in  the US is astronomical.

True. But in the US..they are not banned.

Seems that banning them doesnt do much for crime.

In fact..gun crime in the UK, when firearms were readily available at
any corner store, was low.

When carrying of concealed handguns by the British population was very
common for both men and women..the gun crime rate was lower then
today.

so its obvious that its not the guns, but the culture.

Gunner

>
>
>>
>>
>
>

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:04:00 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
wrote:

>
>"RSweeney"  wrote in message
>news:_bqdnf_djapYjwHanZ2dnUVZ_vamnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>
>> "Blinky Bill"  wrote in message
>> news:DeQmj.7332$421.5461@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>
>>> "Mr Smith"  wrote in message
>>> news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>>>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>>>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>>>
>>>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>>>
>>> It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm
>>> crimes per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people murdered
>>> with a gun and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think
>>> the US has a better outcome?
>>
>> 25% of UK's citizens experience crime victimization last year.
>> That's several times the US rate.
>
>
>The subject was gun crime rates - US is many times higher than UK

Yes it is. Now why is the general crime rate in the UK many many times
highe than that of the US?

Gunner

>
>

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:04:50 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
wrote:

>
>"Gunner"  wrote in message
>news:hncop3d3cv2dkp591rgfe6dsno2d07k9cc@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 00:28:19 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Mr Smith"  wrote in message
>>>news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>>>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>>>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>>>
>>>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>>>
>>>It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm crimes
>>>per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people murdered with a
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>>gun
>>>and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think the US has a
>>>better outcome?
>>>
>> Because its fascinating to note that that guns are effectively banned
>> in the UK, and they still experience 27 firearms crimes per day.
>>
>> In the US, we can shoot back.
>
>> Btw,,,it says 30 homicides a day. Which does NOT equate to 30 murders
>> a day.
>
>I didn't claim  it did, stupid

See above.
>
>> Homicide means "man killing".  Either legal or illegal.
>
>And the number of justifiable homicides in the US is about 200 per year, a
>little over 0.5 per day. It doesn't really have much impact on the 30 per
>day figure.

That number is bogus. It doesnt even count the police shootings, which
are included in that 30/day figure
>
>>
>> A fair number of those 30 per day are the good guys blowing away the
>> bad guys.
>
>Absolute rubbish - about 0.5 per day - negligible.

Your ignorance and dependance on bad data is noted.
>
>>
>> Words mean something. Use them properly.
>
>Like you use "fair number" - you are pathetic.

How so, pendant? Be specific.
>
>> Else we will think yu are
>> trying to spin something ..propaganda
>
>You are showing your own hand at that.

Really?  How so, Pendant?
>
>And meanwhile you ignore 1230 firearm crimes per day as opposed to 27 in a
>country with about one-fifth of your population - who is trying to apply
>spin.
>

You are ignoreing the fact that 25% of Britians will be victims of
crime this year. Why is that?

Gunner

>

"Blinky Bill"  wrote in message 
news:AyZmj.7519$421.5763@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "RSweeney"  wrote in message
> news:_bqdnf_djapYjwHanZ2dnUVZ_vamnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>
>> "Blinky Bill"  wrote in message
>> news:DeQmj.7332$421.5461@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>
>>> "Mr Smith"  wrote in message
>>> news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>>>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>>>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>>>
>>>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>>>
>>> It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm
>>> crimes per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people murdered
>>> with a gun and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think
>>> the US has a better outcome?
>>
>> 25% of UK's citizens experience crime victimization last year.
>> That's several times the US rate.
>
>
> The subject was gun crime rates - US is many times higher than UK

US firearms murders are structured, most are criminals killing criminals.
In gun-free UK, the behaviors have changed, with criminals predating on the 
disarmed honest.

A robbery with a gun is no more a threat than a robbery with a knife.

"Mike"  wrote in message 
news:Nh2nj.10897$M24.7206@newsfe17.lga...
> Concealed carry is a relatively new thing in most states.  In the states 
> that it has been allowed the violent crime rate has dropped since 
> implementation.

Actually it has dropped in some states, risen in some states and stayed the 
same in others. This is what happened in states that haven't adopted CCW.

"Gunner"  wrote in message 
news:41fpp3lgq347lg22gl7l1fstf269kgh2ub@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:55:18 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Bill Smith"  wrote in message
>>news:hllnp39bshhq5hb3v8pa1ft8d38b58fbub@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 00:28:19 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Mr Smith"  wrote in message
>>>>news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>>>>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>>>>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>>>>
>>>>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>>>>
>>>>It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm 
>>>>crimes
>>>>per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people murdered with a
>>>>gun
>>>>and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think the US has a
>>>>better outcome?
>>>>
>>> Since they outlawed private ownership of handguns ten years ago, the
>>> criminal misuse of them should be going down not up, right?
>>>
>>
>>Since most US states  permitted CCW, the US crime rate should be lower, 
>>not
>>10 times higher, shouldn't they?
>
> It is. Its been falling for 10 yrs.

No it hasn't - it has fallen and risen over the last 10 years, and the US 
gun crime rate is still nearly 10 times the UK rate. That doesn't seem a 
recommendation for lax gun laws.

"Gunner"  wrote in message 
news:e3fpp396tua95vt9pdikhoc77l9l7ibtoe@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:55:53 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Scout"  wrote in message
>>news:tzRmj.1139$e46.22@trnddc04...
>>>
>>> "Blinky Bill"  wrote in message
>>> news:DeQmj.7332$421.5461@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>>
>>>> "Mr Smith"  wrote in message
>>>> news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>>>>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>>>>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>>>>
>>>>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>>>>
>>>> It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm
>>>> crimes per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people 
>>>> murdered
>>>> with a gun and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think
>>>> the US has a better outcome?
>>>
>>> Adjust for population and try again.
>>
>>About a factor of 5 - you do the maths.
>>
>>> Then consider that the UK has your wonderful gun control laws, and gun
>>> crime and violent crime is high and getting higher, then tell us how
>>> wonderful gun control is at reducing gun crime and violent crime rates.
>>
>>If gun crime in the UK is high, then gun crime in  the US is astronomical.
>
> True. But in the US..they are not banned.

There is a clue about gun crime rates there, even for the clueless.

>
> Seems that banning them doesnt do much for crime.

Having the gun crime 90% lower than the US seems a good outcome to me. What 
don't you like about it?

>
> In fact..gun crime in the UK, when firearms were readily available at
> any corner store, was low.

And by most standards it is low now, especially when compared to the US.
When were firearms available at any corner store?

>
> When carrying of concealed handguns by the British population was very
> common for both men and women..the gun crime rate was lower then
> today.

What evidence do you have for that claim?

"Gunner"  wrote in message 
news:e8fpp3lefbvv0jh19vco97b6or38soqm5i@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:04:00 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"RSweeney"  wrote in message
>>news:_bqdnf_djapYjwHanZ2dnUVZ_vamnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>
>>> "Blinky Bill"  wrote in message
>>> news:DeQmj.7332$421.5461@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>>
>>>> "Mr Smith"  wrote in message
>>>> news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>>>>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>>>>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>>>>
>>>>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>>>>
>>>> It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm
>>>> crimes per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people 
>>>> murdered
>>>> with a gun and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think
>>>> the US has a better outcome?
>>>
>>> 25% of UK's citizens experience crime victimization last year.
>>> That's several times the US rate.
>>
>>
>>The subject was gun crime rates - US is many times higher than UK
>
> Yes it is. Now why is the general crime rate in the UK many many times
> highe than that of the US?

The subject was gun crime rates - US is many times higher than UK.
Look at the prvious discussion and the name of the thread - then fuck off, 
dickhead.

"Gunner"  wrote in message 
news:dafpp3lkltaqplc3soucqu1v1cfg0uidjq@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:04:50 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Gunner"  wrote in message
>>news:hncop3d3cv2dkp591rgfe6dsno2d07k9cc@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 00:28:19 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Mr Smith"  wrote in message
>>>>news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>>>>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>>>>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>>>>
>>>>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>>>>
>>>>It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm 
>>>>crimes
>>>>per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people murdered with a
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>>>>gun
>>>>and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think the US has a
>>>>better outcome?
>>>>
>>> Because its fascinating to note that that guns are effectively banned
>>> in the UK, and they still experience 27 firearms crimes per day.
>>>
>>> In the US, we can shoot back.
>>
>>> Btw,,,it says 30 homicides a day. Which does NOT equate to 30 murders
>>> a day.
>>
>>I didn't claim  it did, stupid
>
> See above.

I already did - I didn't make any claim about all homicides being murders.

>>
>>> Homicide means "man killing".  Either legal or illegal.
>>
>>And the number of justifiable homicides in the US is about 200 per year, a
>>little over 0.5 per day. It doesn't really have much impact on the 30 per
>>day figure.
>
> That number is bogus. It doesnt even count the police shootings, which
> are included in that 30/day figure

No they aren't. The FBI homicide figures I quoted are for murder and 
non-negligent manslaughter. The FBI says of its justifiable homicide 
figure -
"Because these killing are determined through law enforcement investigation 
to be justifiable, they are tabulated separately from murder and 
nonnegligent manslaughter"

Apart from that, on average LEOs shoot dead less than 1 person a day.

>>
>>>
>>> A fair number of those 30 per day are the good guys blowing away the
>>> bad guys.
>>
>>Absolute rubbish - about 0.5 per day - negligible.
>
> Your ignorance and dependance on bad data is noted.

You desire to introduce irrelevancies about police shootings is also noted.

>>
>>>
>>> Words mean something. Use them properly.
>>
>>Like you use "fair number" - you are pathetic.
>
> How so, pendant? Be specific.

Pendant ?- what the fuck are you raving about?

>>
>>> Else we will think yu are
>>> trying to spin something ..propaganda
>>
>>You are showing your own hand at that.
>
> Really?  How so, Pendant?

Pendant??

>>
>>And meanwhile you ignore 1230 firearm crimes per day as opposed to 27 in a
>>country with about one-fifth of your population - who is trying to apply
>>spin.
>>
>
> You are ignoreing the fact that 25% of Britians will be victims of
> crime this year. Why is that?

Because we are talking about gun crime fuckwit - see previous discussion and 
title of the thread.

"RSweeney"  wrote in message 
news:HsKdnYqcorotSwHanZ2dnUVZ_sytnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "Blinky Bill"  wrote in message 
> news:AyZmj.7519$421.5763@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>
>> "RSweeney"  wrote in message
>> news:_bqdnf_djapYjwHanZ2dnUVZ_vamnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>
>>> "Blinky Bill"  wrote in message
>>> news:DeQmj.7332$421.5461@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>>
>>>> "Mr Smith"  wrote in message
>>>> news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>>>>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>>>>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>>>>
>>>>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>>>>
>>>> It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm
>>>> crimes per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people 
>>>> murdered
>>>> with a gun and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think
>>>> the US has a better outcome?
>>>
>>> 25% of UK's citizens experience crime victimization last year.
>>> That's several times the US rate.
>>
>>
>> The subject was gun crime rates - US is many times higher than UK
>
> US firearms murders are structured, most are criminals killing criminals.
> In gun-free UK, the behaviors have changed, with criminals predating on 
> the disarmed honest.

I would like to see some evidence to support those claims.

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 01:49:54 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
wrote:

>>>
>>>Since most US states  permitted CCW, the US crime rate should be lower, 
>>>not
>>>10 times higher, shouldn't they?
>>
>> It is. Its been falling for 10 yrs.
>
>No it hasn't - it has fallen and risen over the last 10 years, and the US 
>gun crime rate is still nearly 10 times the UK rate. That doesn't seem a 
>recommendation for lax gun laws.
>
Care to give us the stats per capita, the UK compared to the US?

And be sure to remove the inter gang killings.

The US winds up being only a few points above good old gun free Old
Blighty.

Now about the fact that the UK leads the US in most crimes again?

Gunner

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 01:56:07 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
wrote:

>
>"Gunner"  wrote in message 
>news:e3fpp396tua95vt9pdikhoc77l9l7ibtoe@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:55:53 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Scout"  wrote in message
>>>news:tzRmj.1139$e46.22@trnddc04...
>>>>
>>>> "Blinky Bill"  wrote in message
>>>> news:DeQmj.7332$421.5461@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Mr Smith"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>>>>>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>>>>>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>>>>>
>>>>> It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm
>>>>> crimes per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people 
>>>>> murdered
>>>>> with a gun and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think
>>>>> the US has a better outcome?
>>>>
>>>> Adjust for population and try again.
>>>
>>>About a factor of 5 - you do the maths.
>>>
>>>> Then consider that the UK has your wonderful gun control laws, and gun
>>>> crime and violent crime is high and getting higher, then tell us how
>>>> wonderful gun control is at reducing gun crime and violent crime rates.
>>>
>>>If gun crime in the UK is high, then gun crime in  the US is astronomical.
>>
>> True. But in the US..they are not banned.
>
>There is a clue about gun crime rates there, even for the clueless.

http://famguardian.org/Subjects/GunControl/News/GunCrimesSoar-010912.htm

http://famguardian.org/PublishedAuthors/Media/Antishyster/V10N2-GreatBritainAndGunControl.pdf

http://famguardian.org/Subjects/GunControl/Articles/GUNLAWS.TXT

True indeed. An armed society is a polite society.
>
>>
>> Seems that banning them doesnt do much for crime.
>
>Having the gun crime 90% lower than the US seems a good outcome to me. What 
>don't you like about it?

But its NOT 90% lower. You somehow keep avoiding the per capita ratio,
and totally ignoring the fact that most crimes, including burglary,
rape and so forth, are much higher in the UK.
Crimes that are defended against,  by armed citizens in the US

“The murder rates of the U.S. and U.K. are also affected by
differences in the way each counts homicides. The FBI asks police to
list every homicide as murder, even if the case isn't subsequently
prosecuted or proceeds on a lesser charge, making the U.S. numbers as
high as possible. By contrast, the English police "massage down" the
homicide statistics, tracking each case through the courts and
removing it if it is reduced to a lesser charge or determined to be an
accident or self-defense, making the English numbers as low as
possible.”

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cjusew96.htm

>
>>
>> In fact..gun crime in the UK, when firearms were readily available at
>> any corner store, was low.
>
>And by most standards it is low now, especially when compared to the US.
>When were firearms available at any corner store?

Fascinating how ignorant you are of your own history.

To answer your question..prior to 1920
>
>>
>> When carrying of concealed handguns by the British population was very
>> common for both men and women..the gun crime rate was lower then
>> today.
>
>What evidence do you have for that claim?

A study comparing New York and London over 200 years found the New
York homicide rate consistently five times the London rate, although
for most of that period residents of both cities had unrestricted
access to firearms.
When guns were available in England they were seldom used in crime. A
government study for 1890-1892 found an average of one handgun
homicide a year in a population of 30 million. But murder rates for
both countries are now changing. In 1981 the American rate was 8.7
times the English rate, in 1995 it was 5.7 times the English rate, and
by last year it was 3.5 times. With American rates described as "in
startling free-fall" and British rates as of October 2002 the highest
for 100 years the two are on a path to converge.
Gun crime rates between UK and US are narrowing 

http://www.davekopel.com/2A/Foreign/The-Gold-Standard-of-Gun-Control.htm

<http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=5&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.libertarian.co.uk%2Flapubs%2Fpolin%2Fpolin033.pdf&ei=ypudR4meOpvCgAPo6rH7BA&usg=AFQjCNFJXlmgB4j2cCGDk60VrqSnAB5DQg&sig2=6rjRGOr_TvEcUobccrBMMQ>

http://www.haciendapub.com/article15.html

http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2007/02/high-cost-of-gun-control.html



>
>

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 01:57:30 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
wrote:

>
>"Gunner"  wrote in message 
>news:e8fpp3lefbvv0jh19vco97b6or38soqm5i@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:04:00 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"RSweeney"  wrote in message
>>>news:_bqdnf_djapYjwHanZ2dnUVZ_vamnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Blinky Bill"  wrote in message
>>>> news:DeQmj.7332$421.5461@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Mr Smith"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>>>>>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>>>>>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>>>>>
>>>>> It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm
>>>>> crimes per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people 
>>>>> murdered
>>>>> with a gun and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think
>>>>> the US has a better outcome?
>>>>
>>>> 25% of UK's citizens experience crime victimization last year.
>>>> That's several times the US rate.
>>>
>>>
>>>The subject was gun crime rates - US is many times higher than UK
>>
>> Yes it is. Now why is the general crime rate in the UK many many times
>> highe than that of the US?
>
>The subject was gun crime rates - US is many times higher than UK.
>Look at the prvious discussion and the name of the thread - then fuck off, 
>dickhead. 
>
When guns were readily available in the UK, the crime rate was still
much lower than that of the US.  Its not the guns, its the culture.

Now that you are unable to defend yourself, your gun and crime rate is
skyrocketing. While ours, with more guns than at any time in
history..is falling like a rock.

Care to explain why?

Gunner

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:17:58 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
wrote:

>>
>> That number is bogus. It doesnt even count the police shootings, which
>> are included in that 30/day figure
>
>No they aren't. The FBI homicide figures I quoted are for murder and 
>non-negligent manslaughter. The FBI says of its justifiable homicide 
>figure -
>"Because these killing are determined through law enforcement investigation 
>to be justifiable, they are tabulated separately from murder and 
>nonnegligent manslaughter"
>
>Apart from that, on average LEOs shoot dead less than 1 person a day.

“The murder rates of the U.S. and U.K. are also affected by
differences in the way each counts homicides. The FBI asks police to
list every homicide as murder, even if the case isn't subsequently
prosecuted or proceeds on a lesser charge, making the U.S. numbers as
high as possible. By contrast, the English police "massage down" the
homicide statistics, tracking each case through the courts and
removing it if it is reduced to a lesser charge or determined to be an
accident or self-defense, making the English numbers as low as
possible.”

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cjusew96.htm

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:17:58 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
wrote:

>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Words mean something. Use them properly.
>>>
>>>Like you use "fair number" - you are pathetic.
>>
>> How so, pendant? Be specific.
>
>Pendant ?- what the fuck are you raving about?
>
>>>
>>>> Else we will think yu are
>>>> trying to spin something ..propaganda
>>>
>>>You are showing your own hand at that.
>>
>> Really?  How so, Pendant?
>
>Pendant??

Your ignorance is pitiful.
>
>>>
>>>And meanwhile you ignore 1230 firearm crimes per day as opposed to 27 in a
>>>country with about one-fifth of your population - who is trying to apply
>>>spin.
>>>
>>
>> You are ignoreing the fact that 25% of Britians will be victims of
>> crime this year. Why is that?
>
>Because we are talking about gun crime fuckwit - see previous discussion and 
>title of the thread.
>
So once the means of self defense is removed from the people...is it
any suprise your crime rate is skyrocketing?

Gunner

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:20:15 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
wrote:

>>>
>>> The subject was gun crime rates - US is many times higher than UK
>>
>> US firearms murders are structured, most are criminals killing criminals.
>> In gun-free UK, the behaviors have changed, with criminals predating on 
>> the disarmed honest.
>
>I would like to see some evidence to support those claims.


Canada:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/11/08/homicide-rate.html

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/lott200508190817.asp

Since the mid-1980s, firearms have been used in about one out of three
homicides each year. 


US
<http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ojp.usdoj.gov%2Fbjs%2Fhomicide%2Frace.htm&ei=8aCdR-rdM4O6gwOzosD7BA&usg=AFQjCNEqeE6ZaMbj4ZzAEQKIk8b4XTh_KA&sig2=q6d7tO-dP3Uro5VD2dereg>

http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/pubs/gun_violence/sect01.html
Guns and gangs

Gangs have proliferated rapidly since 1980, when there were about
2,000 gangs with 100,000 members in 286 cities.22 By 1996, there were
31,000 gangs with 846,000 members in 4,800 cities and towns.23

Gangs are more likely to recruit adolescents who own firearms, and
gang members (who are twice as likely to own guns for protection than
nongang members) are more likely to carry guns outside their homes.24
The risk of being killed is 60 times greater among young gang members
than in the general population25 and in some cities, far higher. For
example, the St. Louis youth gang homicide rate is 1,000 times higher
than the U.S. homicide rate.26

http://www.gangwar.com/items/items11.htm

If McCorkle's findings are not an exception to the rule, then the
situation in Aurora is. In each of the past 10 years, between 44 and
80 percent of homicides have been gang related.

http://www.laalmanac.com/crime/cr03x.htm

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/feat/archives/2003/08/28/2003065615

More than 60,000 people in Chicago have admitted to being gang
members, and more than 60 percent of the homicides are gang-related,
according to the gangs unit at the state attorney's office.


Any more silly assed questions?

Gunner

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 00:59:43 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
wrote:

>
>"Mike"  wrote in message 
>news:Nh2nj.10897$M24.7206@newsfe17.lga...
>> Concealed carry is a relatively new thing in most states.  In the states 
>> that it has been allowed the violent crime rate has dropped since 
>> implementation.
>
>Actually it has dropped in some states, risen in some states and stayed the 
>same in others. This is what happened in states that haven't adopted CCW.
>
The rates of crime dropped far more in those CCW states.

http://www.azccw.com/More%20Facts%20&%20Statistics.htm

Gunner

[Default] I  missed the Staff Meeting but the Minutes record that
Gunner   reported Elvis on Sun, 27 Jan
2008 09:19:44 -0800 in misc.survivalism :
>On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:04:00 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
>wrote:
>
>>
>>"RSweeney"  wrote in message
>>news:_bqdnf_djapYjwHanZ2dnUVZ_vamnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>
>>> "Blinky Bill"  wrote in message
>>> news:DeQmj.7332$421.5461@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>>
>>>> "Mr Smith"  wrote in message
>>>> news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>>>>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>>>>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>>>>
>>>>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>>>>
>>>> It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm
>>>> crimes per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people murdered
>>>> with a gun and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think
>>>> the US has a better outcome?
>>>
>>> 25% of UK's citizens experience crime victimization last year.
>>> That's several times the US rate.
>>
>>
>>The subject was gun crime rates - US is many times higher than UK
>
>Yes it is. Now why is the general crime rate in the UK many many times
>highe than that of the US?

	And why is the general crime rate in the UK higher now than it was
say ten years ago?  Or forty years ago?

	I'm not too concerned about the relative levels of per capita
crime rates in two countries - I'm more concerned with the relative
levels of per capita crime rates in one country in two time periods.
-- 
pyotr filipivich
The two oldest cliches in the book are "The Good Old Days were
better." and "After all, these are Modern TImes."

"Blinky Bill"  wrote in message 
news:XCanj.7712$421.1191@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Gunner"  wrote in message 
> news:e3fpp396tua95vt9pdikhoc77l9l7ibtoe@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:55:53 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Scout"  wrote in message
>>>news:tzRmj.1139$e46.22@trnddc04...
>>>>
>>>> "Blinky Bill"  wrote in message
>>>> news:DeQmj.7332$421.5461@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Mr Smith"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>>>>>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>>>>>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>>>>>
>>>>> It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm
>>>>> crimes per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people 
>>>>> murdered
>>>>> with a gun and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you think
>>>>> the US has a better outcome?
>>>>
>>>> Adjust for population and try again.
>>>
>>>About a factor of 5 - you do the maths.
>>>
>>>> Then consider that the UK has your wonderful gun control laws, and gun
>>>> crime and violent crime is high and getting higher, then tell us how
>>>> wonderful gun control is at reducing gun crime and violent crime rates.
>>>
>>>If gun crime in the UK is high, then gun crime in  the US is 
>>>astronomical.
>>
>> True. But in the US..they are not banned.
>
> There is a clue about gun crime rates there, even for the clueless.

Guns don't commit crimes.
>
>>
>> Seems that banning them doesnt do much for crime.
>
> Having the gun crime 90% lower than the US seems a good outcome to me. 
> What don't you like about it?

Yes, it's far better to be beaten bloody or beaten to death.
>
>>
>> In fact..gun crime in the UK, when firearms were readily available at
>> any corner store, was low.
>
> And by most standards it is low now, especially when compared to the US.
> When were firearms available at any corner store?
>
That's a really stupid statement. Guns aren't available at every corner 
store. At one time they were and we had a lot less crime.
>>
>> When carrying of concealed handguns by the British population was very
>> common for both men and women..the gun crime rate was lower then
>> today.
>
> What evidence do you have for that claim?
>

Where's your evidence for your dumb ass assertions?

"Mike"  wrote in message 
news:Judnj.36575$Ft5.33050@newsfe15.lga...
> Not true - last statistics I saw from John Lott (using gov't data) record 
> that in all the States that allow CCW the violent crime rate has dropped 
> (including gun crime).


It is well known that John Lott lies - he is certainly lying if he claims 
that violent crime dropped in every state that introduced CCW.


> Mike
>
> "Blinky Bill"  wrote in message 
> news:3O9nj.7679$421.3982@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>
>> "Mike"  wrote in message 
>> news:Nh2nj.10897$M24.7206@newsfe17.lga...
>>> Concealed carry is a relatively new thing in most states.  In the states 
>>> that it has been allowed the violent crime rate has dropped since 
>>> implementation.
>>
>> Actually it has dropped in some states, risen in some states and stayed 
>> the same in others. This is what happened in states that haven't adopted 
>> CCW.
>>
>>
>

"Gunner"  wrote in message 
news:hc6rp3l90qq1otovj0m2gblqegv22fbr3i@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 01:49:54 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
> wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>>Since most US states  permitted CCW, the US crime rate should be lower,
>>>>not
>>>>10 times higher, shouldn't they?
>>>
>>> It is. Its been falling for 10 yrs.
>>
>>No it hasn't - it has fallen and risen over the last 10 years, and the US
>>gun crime rate is still nearly 10 times the UK rate. That doesn't seem a
>>recommendation for lax gun laws.
>>
> Care to give us the stats per capita, the UK compared to the US?
>
> And be sure to remove the inter gang killings.

So they aren't gun crimes? Don't be absurd - if you think the numbers have 
any significance you will need to get them yourself, you lazy dickhead.

>
> The US winds up being only a few points above good old gun free Old
> Blighty.

<yawn> sure it does.


>
> Now about the fact that the UK leads the US in most crimes again?

Now, about the fact that we are disc ussing gun crimes.


>
> Gunner

"Gunner"  wrote in message 
news:jg6rp3lg4j9tvtbk94h1m26prddnj7ak1b@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 01:56:07 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Gunner"  wrote in message
>>news:e3fpp396tua95vt9pdikhoc77l9l7ibtoe@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:55:53 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Scout"  wrote in message
>>>>news:tzRmj.1139$e46.22@trnddc04...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Blinky Bill"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:DeQmj.7332$421.5461@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Mr Smith"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>>>>>>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>>>>>>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm
>>>>>> crimes per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people
>>>>>> murdered
>>>>>> with a gun and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you 
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> the US has a better outcome?
>>>>>
>>>>> Adjust for population and try again.
>>>>
>>>>About a factor of 5 - you do the maths.
>>>>
>>>>> Then consider that the UK has your wonderful gun control laws, and gun
>>>>> crime and violent crime is high and getting higher, then tell us how
>>>>> wonderful gun control is at reducing gun crime and violent crime 
>>>>> rates.
>>>>
>>>>If gun crime in the UK is high, then gun crime in  the US is 
>>>>astronomical.
>>>
>>> True. But in the US..they are not banned.
>>
>>There is a clue about gun crime rates there, even for the clueless.
>
> http://famguardian.org/Subjects/GunControl/News/GunCrimesSoar-010912.htm
>
> http://famguardian.org/PublishedAuthors/Media/Antishyster/V10N2-GreatBritainAndGunControl.pdf
>
> http://famguardian.org/Subjects/GunControl/Articles/GUNLAWS.TXT
>
> True indeed. An armed society is a polite society.

So polite that its members kill each other with guns at a rate 30 times what 
occurs where I live.


>>
>>>
>>> Seems that banning them doesnt do much for crime.
>>
>>Having the gun crime 90% lower than the US seems a good outcome to me. 
>>What
>>don't you like about it?
>
> But its NOT 90% lower. You somehow keep avoiding the per capita ratio,

There are 1260 gun crimes per say in the US and the number cited earlier for 
England and Wales was 27. Unless the population of the US is about 50 times 
that of England and Wales, the per capita rate rate in the US is higher than 
in England and Wales.

> and totally ignoring the fact that most crimes, including burglary,
> rape and so forth, are much higher in the UK.
> Crimes that are defended against,  by armed citizens in the US

Why then are they so spectacularly unsuccessful at defending themselves from 
being shot? And the page you cite below says "Crime rates as measured in 
police statistics are higher in England for half of the measured crime 
types." So you are lying when you claim "most crimes, including burglary, 
rape and so forth, are much higher in the UK"

>
> "The murder rates of the U.S. and U.K. are also affected by
> differences in the way each counts homicides.

Evidence required.

The FBI asks police to
> list every homicide as murder, even if the case isn't subsequently
> prosecuted or proceeds on a lesser charge, making the U.S. numbers as
> high as possible. By contrast, the English police "massage down" the
> homicide statistics, tracking each case through the courts and
> removing it if it is reduced to a lesser charge or determined to be an
> accident or self-defense, making the English numbers as low as
> possible."
>
> http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cjusew96.htm

Your tortured explanation of the difference in homicides does not occur on 
the page you cite above - don't tell lies.

>
>>
>>>
>>> In fact..gun crime in the UK, when firearms were readily available at
>>> any corner store, was low.
>>
>>And by most standards it is low now, especially when compared to the US.
>>When were firearms available at any corner store?
>
> Fascinating how ignorant you are of your own history.
>
> To answer your question..prior to 1920
>>
>>>
>>> When carrying of concealed handguns by the British population was very
>>> common for both men and women..the gun crime rate was lower then
>>> today.
>>
>>What evidence do you have for that claim?
>
> A study comparing New York and London over 200 years found the New
> York homicide rate consistently five times the London rate, although
> for most of that period residents of both cities had unrestricted
> access to firearms.
> When guns were available in England they were seldom used in crime. A
> government study for 1890-1892 found an average of one handgun
> homicide a year in a population of 30 million. But murder rates for
> both countries are now changing. In 1981 the American rate was 8.7
> times the English rate, in 1995 it was 5.7 times the English rate, and
> by last year it was 3.5 times. With American rates described as "in
> startling free-fall" and British rates as of October 2002 the highest
> for 100 years the two are on a path to converge.
> Gun crime rates between UK and US are narrowing
>
> http://www.davekopel.com/2A/Foreign/The-Gold-Standard-of-Gun-Control.htm
>
> <http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=5&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.libertarian.co.uk%2Flapubs%2Fpolin%2Fpolin033.pdf&ei=ypudR4meOpvCgAPo6rH7BA&usg=AFQjCNFJXlmgB4j2cCGDk60VrqSnAB5DQg&sig2=6rjRGOr_TvEcUobccrBMMQ>
>
> http://www.haciendapub.com/article15.html
>
> http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2007/02/high-cost-of-gun-control.html
>

Nothing I could find that supports your claim that "carrying of concealed 
handguns by the British population was very
common for both men and women."

"Gunner"  wrote in message 
news:0o7rp3tm1bnodog46g16e2qdpps37r9il0@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 01:57:30 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Gunner"  wrote in message
>>news:e8fpp3lefbvv0jh19vco97b6or38soqm5i@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 11:04:00 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"RSweeney"  wrote in message
>>>>news:_bqdnf_djapYjwHanZ2dnUVZ_vamnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Blinky Bill"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:DeQmj.7332$421.5461@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Mr Smith"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>>>>>>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>>>>>>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm
>>>>>> crimes per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people
>>>>>> murdered
>>>>>> with a gun and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you 
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> the US has a better outcome?
>>>>>
>>>>> 25% of UK's citizens experience crime victimization last year.
>>>>> That's several times the US rate.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The subject was gun crime rates - US is many times higher than UK
>>>
>>> Yes it is. Now why is the general crime rate in the UK many many times
>>> highe than that of the US?
>>
>>The subject was gun crime rates - US is many times higher than UK.
>>Look at the prvious discussion and the name of the thread - then fuck off,
>>dickhead.
>>
> When guns were readily available in the UK, the crime rate was still
> much lower than that of the US.  Its not the guns, its the culture.

You're right - it is the US gun culture that you and other gun-loons 
promote.

>
> Now that you are unable to defend yourself, your gun and crime rate is
> skyrocketing.

Not in Australia where I live - it has fallen following the introduction of 
sensible and effective gun laws.

> While ours, with more guns than at any time in
> history..is falling like a rock.

But you say it isn't the guns, it's the culture.

>
> Care to explain why?

It isn't falling like a rock - it has levelled off  for the last few years 
with small ups and down.

"Gunner"  wrote in message 
news:ct7rp3t6fibdpied9jh0h7774jp5g0am04@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:17:58 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> That number is bogus. It doesnt even count the police shootings, which
>>> are included in that 30/day figure
>>
>>No they aren't. The FBI homicide figures I quoted are for murder and
>>non-negligent manslaughter. The FBI says of its justifiable homicide
>>figure -
>>"Because these killing are determined through law enforcement 
>>investigation
>>to be justifiable, they are tabulated separately from murder and
>>nonnegligent manslaughter"
>>
>>Apart from that, on average LEOs shoot dead less than 1 person a day.
>
> "The murder rates of the U.S. and U.K. are also affected by
> differences in the way each counts homicides. The FBI asks police to
> list every homicide as murder, even if the case isn't subsequently
> prosecuted or proceeds on a lesser charge, making the U.S. numbers as
> high as possible. By contrast, the English police "massage down" the
> homicide statistics, tracking each case through the courts and
> removing it if it is reduced to a lesser charge or determined to be an
> accident or self-defense, making the English numbers as low as
> possible."
>
> http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cjusew96.htm


That text doesn't occur on the page you cite - don't tell lies.
Apart from that, firearm homicide is an insignificant proportion of the 
reported gun crime.

"Gunner"  wrote in message 
news:7u7rp3l28san54f2aqdt3vl1gj3os7advp@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:17:58 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Words mean something. Use them properly.
>>>>
>>>>Like you use "fair number" - you are pathetic.
>>>
>>> How so, pendant? Be specific.
>>
>>Pendant ?- what the fuck are you raving about?
>>
>>>>
>>>>> Else we will think yu are
>>>>> trying to spin something ..propaganda
>>>>
>>>>You are showing your own hand at that.
>>>
>>> Really?  How so, Pendant?
>>
>>Pendant??
>
> Your ignorance is pitiful.

pendant
A piece of jewelery hung from a chain worn around the neck

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pendant

Why are you calling me a piece of jewellery?

>>>>And meanwhile you ignore 1230 firearm crimes per day as opposed to 27 in 
>>>>a
>>>>country with about one-fifth of your population - who is trying to apply
>>>>spin.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You are ignoreing the fact that 25% of Britians will be victims of
>>> crime this year. Why is that?
>>
>>Because we are talking about gun crime fuckwit - see previous discussion 
>>and
>>title of the thread.
>>
> So once the means of self defense is removed from the people...is it
> any suprise your crime rate is skyrocketing?



Where I live, crime fell after the introduction of gunlaws - why do think it 
is skyrocketing?




>
> Gunner
>

"Gunner"  wrote in message 
news:j38rp3to9o21uh96ln0c064u3fk1p05dco@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:20:15 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
> wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>> The subject was gun crime rates - US is many times higher than UK
>>>
>>> US firearms murders are structured, most are criminals killing 
>>> criminals.
>>> In gun-free UK, the behaviors have changed, with criminals predating on
>>> the disarmed honest.
>>
>>I would like to see some evidence to support those claims.
>
>
> Canada:
> http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/11/08/homicide-rate.html
>
> http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/lott200508190817.asp
>
> Since the mid-1980s, firearms have been used in about one out of three
> homicides each year.
>

I ask for evidence regarding crime in UK and England, and you cite reports 
from Canada.
 You are a total fuckwit.


>
> US
> <http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ojp.usdoj.gov%2Fbjs%2Fhomicide%2Frace.htm&ei=8aCdR-rdM4O6gwOzosD7BA&usg=AFQjCNEqeE6ZaMbj4ZzAEQKIk8b4XTh_KA&sig2=q6d7tO-dP3Uro5VD2dereg>
>
> http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/pubs/gun_violence/sect01.html
> Guns and gangs
>
> Gangs have proliferated rapidly since 1980, when there were about
> 2,000 gangs with 100,000 members in 286 cities.22 By 1996, there were
> 31,000 gangs with 846,000 members in 4,800 cities and towns.23
>
> Gangs are more likely to recruit adolescents who own firearms, and
> gang members (who are twice as likely to own guns for protection than
> nongang members) are more likely to carry guns outside their homes.24
> The risk of being killed is 60 times greater among young gang members
> than in the general population25 and in some cities, far higher. For
> example, the St. Louis youth gang homicide rate is 1,000 times higher
> than the U.S. homicide rate.26
>
> http://www.gangwar.com/items/items11.htm
>
> If McCorkle's findings are not an exception to the rule, then the
> situation in Aurora is. In each of the past 10 years, between 44 and
> 80 percent of homicides have been gang related.
>
> http://www.laalmanac.com/crime/cr03x.htm
>
> http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/feat/archives/2003/08/28/2003065615
>
> More than 60,000 people in Chicago have admitted to being gang
> members, and more than 60 percent of the homicides are gang-related,
> according to the gangs unit at the state attorney's office.
>
>
> Any more silly assed questions?

I'm still waiting for evidence that "most are criminals killing criminals" 
with regard to firearm killings in the US ie more than half- all you have 
shown is that some are criminals killing criminals.


>
> Gunner

"Gunner"  wrote in message 
news:5c9rp3969h085gkfghtc41gfpuose872vf@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 00:59:43 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Mike"  wrote in message
>>news:Nh2nj.10897$M24.7206@newsfe17.lga...
>>> Concealed carry is a relatively new thing in most states.  In the states
>>> that it has been allowed the violent crime rate has dropped since
>>> implementation.
>>
>>Actually it has dropped in some states, risen in some states and stayed 
>>the
>>same in others. This is what happened in states that haven't adopted CCW.
>>
> The rates of crime dropped far more in those CCW states.
>
> http://www.azccw.com/More%20Facts%20&%20Statistics.htm

That only cites Lott - his study has been exposed as dubious, possibly 
dishonest by other researchers.

"Morton Davis"  wrote in message 
news:NYknj.5356$yE1.4362@attbi_s21...
>
> "Blinky Bill"  wrote in message 
> news:XCanj.7712$421.1191@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>
>> "Gunner"  wrote in message 
>> news:e3fpp396tua95vt9pdikhoc77l9l7ibtoe@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:55:53 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Scout"  wrote in message
>>>>news:tzRmj.1139$e46.22@trnddc04...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Blinky Bill"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:DeQmj.7332$421.5461@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Mr Smith"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:42396928-9180-41e4-8406-bff5e0e8245c@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>> Bad news from the "city on a hill" of gun control advocates. The
>>>>>>> headline of an article on the BBC news website: "Gun Crime Soars By
>>>>>>> 35%". You can read the article at:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It says that England and Wales experienced an average of 27 firearm
>>>>>> crimes per day in 2003. In that year, the US averaged 30 people 
>>>>>> murdered
>>>>>> with a gun and 1230 non-fatal firearm crimes per day. Why do you 
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> the US has a better outcome?
>>>>>
>>>>> Adjust for population and try again.
>>>>
>>>>About a factor of 5 - you do the maths.
>>>>
>>>>> Then consider that the UK has your wonderful gun control laws, and gun
>>>>> crime and violent crime is high and getting higher, then tell us how
>>>>> wonderful gun control is at reducing gun crime and violent crime 
>>>>> rates.
>>>>
>>>>If gun crime in the UK is high, then gun crime in  the US is 
>>>>astronomical.
>>>
>>> True. But in the US..they are not banned.
>>
>> There is a clue about gun crime rates there, even for the clueless.
>
> Guns don't commit crimes.

No one said they did, stupid.

>>
>>>
>>> Seems that banning them doesnt do much for crime.
>>
>> Having the gun crime 90% lower than the US seems a good outcome to me. 
>> What don't you like about it?
>
> Yes, it's far better to be beaten bloody or beaten to death.

And the US also has a higher overall murder rate than the UK.

>>
>>>
>>> In fact..gun crime in the UK, when firearms were readily available at
>>> any corner store, was low.
>>
>> And by most standards it is low now, especially when compared to the US.
>> When were firearms available at any corner store?
>>
> That's a really stupid statement.

It is a question seeking evidence for a claim made by a gun loon. Go back a 
few lines.
"In fact..gun crime in the UK, when firearms were readily available at any 
corner store, was low."
I don't believe that situation ever existed in the UK, but I am willing to 
change that view based on evidence.

> Guns aren't available at every corner store.

No-one claimed they are - a gun loon said they were in the UK, and I don't 
believe him.

Blinky Bill wrote:
> "Gunner"  wrote in message 
> news:7u7rp3l28san54f2aqdt3vl1gj3os7advp@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:17:58 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Words mean something. Use them properly.
>>>>> Like you use "fair number" - you are pathetic.
>>>> How so, pendant? Be specific.
>>> Pendant ?- what the fuck are you raving about?
>>>
>>>>>> Else we will think yu are
>>>>>> trying to spin something ..propaganda
>>>>> You are showing your own hand at that.
>>>> Really?  How so, Pendant?
>>> Pendant??
>> Your ignorance is pitiful.
> 
> pendant
> A piece of jewelery hung from a chain worn around the neck
> 
> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pendant
> 
> Why are you calling me a piece of jewellery?

He thinks you're valuable and sparkling?

In news:votnj.8419$421.7828@news-server.bigpond.net.au "Blinky Bill"
 wrote: 
> "Gunner"  wrote in message 
> news:7u7rp3l28san54f2aqdt3vl1gj3os7advp@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:17:58 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Words mean something. Use them properly.
>>>>>
>>>>>Like you use "fair number" - you are pathetic.
>>>>
>>>> How so, pendant? Be specific.
>>>
>>>Pendant ?- what the fuck are you raving about?
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Else we will think yu are
>>>>>> trying to spin something ..propaganda
>>>>>
>>>>>You are showing your own hand at that.
>>>>
>>>> Really?  How so, Pendant?
>>>
>>>Pendant??
>>
>> Your ignorance is pitiful.
> 
> pendant
> A piece of jewelery hung from a chain worn around the neck
> 
> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pendant
> 
> Why are you calling me a piece of jewellery?
> 

Maybe he meant to call you a schmuck.

In German, that means "jewelry"; in Yiddish, it means ... something
else. 

-- 
Bert Hyman	St. Paul, MN	bert@iphouse.com

"Martin"  wrote in message 
news:479e7339$0$21092$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk...
> Blinky Bill wrote:
>> "Gunner"  wrote in message 
>> news:7u7rp3l28san54f2aqdt3vl1gj3os7advp@4ax.com...
>>> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:17:58 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> Words mean something. Use them properly.
>>>>>> Like you use "fair number" - you are pathetic.
>>>>> How so, pendant? Be specific.
>>>> Pendant ?- what the fuck are you raving about?
>>>>
>>>>>>> Else we will think yu are
>>>>>>> trying to spin something ..propaganda
>>>>>> You are showing your own hand at that.
>>>>> Really?  How so, Pendant?
>>>> Pendant??
>>> Your ignorance is pitiful.
>>
>> pendant
>> A piece of jewelery hung from a chain worn around the neck
>>
>> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pendant
>>
>> Why are you calling me a piece of jewellery?
>
> He thinks you're valuable and sparkling?

First evidence he is capable of good judgment  ;-)

"Bert Hyman"  wrote in message 
news:Xns9A33BDEB43349VeebleFetzer@216.250.184.7...
> In news:votnj.8419$421.7828@news-server.bigpond.net.au "Blinky Bill"
>  wrote:
>> "Gunner"  wrote in message
>> news:7u7rp3l28san54f2aqdt3vl1gj3os7advp@4ax.com...
>>> On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 02:17:58 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Words mean something. Use them properly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Like you use "fair number" - you are pathetic.
>>>>>
>>>>> How so, pendant? Be specific.
>>>>
>>>>Pendant ?- what the fuck are you raving about?
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Else we will think yu are
>>>>>>> trying to spin something ..propaganda
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You are showing your own hand at that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Really?  How so, Pendant?
>>>>
>>>>Pendant??
>>>
>>> Your ignorance is pitiful.
>>
>> pendant
>> A piece of jewelery hung from a chain worn around the neck
>>
>> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pendant
>>
>> Why are you calling me a piece of jewellery?
>>
>
> Maybe he meant to call you a schmuck.

He is so incompetent that hitting keys so far from what he intended wouldn't 
surprise me. What would surprise me is that someone with such poor 
coordination would be allowed to own a gun


>
> In German, that means "jewelry";

Not according to Wiki - you gun-loons don't get much right do you.

Ban Hollywood movies which glorify and trivialise murder. FIRST.

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:46:38 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
wrote:

>
>"Mike"  wrote in message 
>news:Judnj.36575$Ft5.33050@newsfe15.lga...
>> Not true - last statistics I saw from John Lott (using gov't data) record 
>> that in all the States that allow CCW the violent crime rate has dropped 
>> (including gun crime).
>
>
>It is well known that John Lott lies - he is certainly lying if he claims 
>that violent crime dropped in every state that introduced CCW.

Please provide citations to back up your claim that crime didnt drop
in CCW states.

Failure to do so will prove you to be a liar.

Gunner

>
>
>> Mike
>>
>> "Blinky Bill"  wrote in message 
>> news:3O9nj.7679$421.3982@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>
>>> "Mike"  wrote in message 
>>> news:Nh2nj.10897$M24.7206@newsfe17.lga...
>>>> Concealed carry is a relatively new thing in most states.  In the states 
>>>> that it has been allowed the violent crime rate has dropped since 
>>>> implementation.
>>>
>>> Actually it has dropped in some states, risen in some states and stayed 
>>> the same in others. This is what happened in states that haven't adopted 
>>> CCW.
>>>
>>>
>> 
>

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:50:54 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
wrote:

>>>
>> Care to give us the stats per capita, the UK compared to the US?
>>
>> And be sure to remove the inter gang killings.
>
>So they aren't gun crimes? Don't be absurd - if you think the numbers have 
>any significance you will need to get them yourself, you lazy dickhead.

so you wish to cherry pick? I thought so.
>
>>
>> The US winds up being only a few points above good old gun free Old
>> Blighty.
>
><yawn> sure it does.

Indeed, it does
>
>
>>
>> Now about the fact that the UK leads the US in most crimes again?
>
>Now, about the fact that we are disc ussing gun crimes.

Your avoidance is noted.

Gunner

>
>
>>
>> Gunner

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 23:06:44 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
wrote:

>>
>> A study comparing New York and London over 200 years found the New
>> York homicide rate consistently five times the London rate, although
>> for most of that period residents of both cities had unrestricted
>> access to firearms.
>> When guns were available in England they were seldom used in crime. A
>> government study for 1890-1892 found an average of one handgun
>> homicide a year in a population of 30 million. But murder rates for
>> both countries are now changing. In 1981 the American rate was 8.7
>> times the English rate, in 1995 it was 5.7 times the English rate, and
>> by last year it was 3.5 times. With American rates described as "in
>> startling free-fall" and British rates as of October 2002 the highest
>> for 100 years the two are on a path to converge.
>> Gun crime rates between UK and US are narrowing
>>
>> http://www.davekopel.com/2A/Foreign/The-Gold-Standard-of-Gun-Control.htm
>>
>> <http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=5&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.libertarian.co.uk%2Flapubs%2Fpolin%2Fpolin033.pdf&ei=ypudR4meOpvCgAPo6rH7BA&usg=AFQjCNFJXlmgB4j2cCGDk60VrqSnAB5DQg&sig2=6rjRGOr_TvEcUobccrBMMQ>
>>
>> http://www.haciendapub.com/article15.html
>>
>> http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2007/02/high-cost-of-gun-control.html
>>
>
>Nothing I could find that supports your claim that "carrying of concealed 
>handguns by the British population was very
>common for both men and women." 
>
Your denial is noted with amused contempt.

http://www.gunowners.org/op9706.htm

 It was not merely a theoretical right. In a material rather than a
cinemagraphic sense, British society was much more a "gun culture" in
the early years of this century than it is today. Conan Doyle's Dr.
Watson dropping his revolver into his pocket before walking the London
streets indeed illustrated what was then a commonplace. The "Tottenham
Outrage" of 1909 presents a telling vignette of the reality of that
time: (25) pursuing the perpetrators of an attempted wages robbery
across north London, the police borrowed four pistols from passers-by;
other armed citizens fulfilled what Dicey still recognized as a legal
obligation of the subject to halt felons by joining in the chase
themselves. (26) Today we might be shocked by such a thought;
Londoners then were apparently more shocked by the idea of an armed
robbery. In the years before the First World War, when anyone could
purchase a pistol, total firearms crime in the metropolis ran at less
than fortieth of that today. (27)

http://myweb.cebridge.net/mkeithr/Jeff/ukreport.html

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 23:10:40 GMT, "Blinky Bill" 
wrote:

>>
>> Care to explain why?
>
>It isn't falling like a rock - it has levelled off  for the last few years 
>with small ups and down. 
Gun Control's Twisted Outcome

Restricting firearms has helped make England more crime-ridden than
the U.S.

Joyce Lee Malcolm | November 2002 Print Edition

On a June evening two years ago, Dan Rather made many stiff British
upper lips quiver by reporting that England had a crime problem and
that, apart from murder, "theirs is worse than ours." The response was
swift and sharp. "Have a Nice Daydream," The Mirror, a London daily,
shot back, reporting: "Britain reacted with fury and disbelief last
night to claims by American newsmen that crime and violence are worse
here than in the US." But sandwiched between the article's battery of
official denials -- "totally misleading," "a huge
over-simplification," "astounding and outrageous" -- and a compilation
of lurid crimes from "the wild west culture on the other side of the
Atlantic where every other car is carrying a gun," The Mirror conceded
that the CBS anchorman was correct. Except for murder and rape, it
admitted, "Britain has overtaken the US for all major crimes."

In the two years since Dan Rather was so roundly rebuked, violence in
England has gotten markedly worse. Over the course of a few days in
the summer of 2001, gun-toting men burst into an English court and
freed two defendants; a shooting outside a London nightclub left five
women and three men wounded; and two men were machine-gunned to death
in a residential neighborhood of north London. And on New Year's Day
this year a 19-year-old girl walking on a main street in east London
was shot in the head by a thief who wanted her mobile phone. London
police are now looking to New York City police for advice.

None of this was supposed to happen in the country whose stringent gun
laws and 1997 ban on handguns have been hailed as the "gold standard"
of gun control. For the better part of a century, British governments
have pursued a strategy for domestic safety that a 1992 Economist
article characterized as requiring "a restraint on personal liberty
that seems, in most civilised countries, essential to the happiness of
others," a policy the magazine found at odds with "America's Vigilante
Values." The safety of English people has been staked on the thesis
that fewer private guns means less crime. The government believes that
any weapons in the hands of men and women, however law-abiding, pose a
danger, and that disarming them lessens the chance that criminals will
get or use weapons.

The results -- the toughest firearm restrictions of any democracy --
are credited by the world's gun control advocates with producing a low