guig  wrote:

:On 2008-09-04 16:08:04 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:
:
:> Custos Custodum  wrote:
:> 
:> :On Thu, 04 Sep 2008 03:57:56 -0700, Fred J. McCall
:> : wrote:
:> :
:> :>GM  wrote:
:> :>:
:> :>:The US must be a great place to stay.  They shoot people because they
:> :>:don't understand them!
:> :>:
:> :>
:> :>That would be as opposed to Great Britain, where the police apparently
:> :>do the same thing just because you're not white and want to ride the
:> :>subway...
:> :
:> :At least it's only the police, and not every trigger-happy redneck who
:> :has been given the power of judge, jury and executioner.
:> :
:> 
:> Don't threaten them in their homes and you don't get shot.
:> 
:> That's as opposed to London, where the rule would seem to be "Don't
:> appear in public without white skin".
:
:If I remember correctly the gentleman who was shot was lost and knocked 
:on a door to try and get directions and was shot in the back whilst 
:walking away from the property.
:

You don't remember correctly.

-- 
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
 soul with evil."
                                      -- Socrates

"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message 
news:1a81c4tmukvavm03ool691esjkkfukiv6v@4ax.com...
> guig  wrote:
>
> :On 2008-09-04 16:08:04 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:
> :
> :> Custos Custodum  wrote:
> :>
> :> :On Thu, 04 Sep 2008 03:57:56 -0700, Fred J. McCall
> :> : wrote:
> :> :
> :> :>GM  wrote:
> :> :>:
> :> :>:The US must be a great place to stay.  They shoot people because 
> they
> :> :>:don't understand them!
> :> :>:
> :> :>
> :> :>That would be as opposed to Great Britain, where the police 
> apparently
> :> :>do the same thing just because you're not white and want to ride the
> :> :>subway...
> :> :
> :> :At least it's only the police, and not every trigger-happy redneck who
> :> :has been given the power of judge, jury and executioner.
> :> :
> :>
> :> Don't threaten them in their homes and you don't get shot.
> :>
> :> That's as opposed to London, where the rule would seem to be "Don't
> :> appear in public without white skin".
> :
> :If I remember correctly the gentleman who was shot was lost and knocked
> :on a door to try and get directions and was shot in the back whilst
> :walking away from the property.
> :
>
> You don't remember correctly.

What doesn't he remember correctly?

This case caused quite a stir here at the time, as he was local to Aberdeen. 
From memory as I can't find any detail from the local paper.

He wasn't a businessman- he was working for an oil company and was sent to 
America on a short-term basis possibly for training. They had been out for 
the evening - they had been drinking but not a great deal and for some 
reason he became paranoid and distressed in the car. He jumped out and ran 
away. One suggestion was that he thought the person driving was not going in 
the right direction and may have been taking them away for some nefarious 
purpose.

He was knocking frantically on somebody's door shouting for help and was 
shot several times - through the locked door. Some of the bullets were in 
his back and the suggestion was that when the shooting started he had turned 
to run away before he was killed.

People here found it difficult to grasp that someone who was unarmed, 
seeking help and possibly mentally ill could  be shot dead through a locked 
door and the shooter was seen legally as acting acceptably.

Neb

"nebulous"  wrote:

:
:"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message 
:news:1a81c4tmukvavm03ool691esjkkfukiv6v@4ax.com...
:> guig  wrote:
:>
:> :On 2008-09-04 16:08:04 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:
:> :
:> :> Custos Custodum  wrote:
:> :>
:> :> :On Thu, 04 Sep 2008 03:57:56 -0700, Fred J. McCall
:> :> : wrote:
:> :> :
:> :> :>GM  wrote:
:> :> :>:
:> :> :>:The US must be a great place to stay.  They shoot people because they
:> :> :>:don't understand them!
:> :> :>:
:> :> :>
:> :> :>That would be as opposed to Great Britain, where the police apparently
:> :> :>do the same thing just because you're not white and want to ride the
:> :> :>subway...
:> :> :
:> :> :At least it's only the police, and not every trigger-happy redneck who
:> :> :has been given the power of judge, jury and executioner.
:> :> :
:> :>
:> :> Don't threaten them in their homes and you don't get shot.
:> :>
:> :> That's as opposed to London, where the rule would seem to be "Don't
:> :> appear in public without white skin".
:> :
:> :If I remember correctly the gentleman who was shot was lost and knocked
:> :on a door to try and get directions and was shot in the back whilst
:> :walking away from the property.
:> :
:>
:> You don't remember correctly.
:
:What doesn't he remember correctly?
:

Well, let's compare your memory and his, shall we?

:
:This case caused quite a stir here at the time, as he was local to Aberdeen. 
:From memory as I can't find any detail from the local paper.
:
:He wasn't a businessman- he was working for an oil company and was sent to 
:America on a short-term basis possibly for training. They had been out for 
:the evening - they had been drinking but not a great deal and for some 
:reason he became paranoid and distressed in the car. He jumped out and ran 
:away. One suggestion was that he thought the person driving was not going in 
:the right direction and may have been taking them away for some nefarious 
:purpose.
:
:He was knocking frantically on somebody's door shouting for help and was 
:shot several times - through the locked door. Some of the bullets were in 
:his back and the suggestion was that when the shooting started he had turned 
:to run away before he was killed.
:

He says "shot in the back whilst walking away".  You say essentially
some of the bullets went into his back when he turned to run away.

Which is it?

:
:People here found it difficult to grasp that someone who was unarmed, 
:seeking help and possibly mentally ill could  be shot dead through a locked 
:door and the shooter was seen legally as acting acceptably.
:

Wee small hours of the morning.  Nutter pounding on the door as if
trying to break it open and yelling incoherently.  Small wonder he got
shot.

Let's examine YOUR memory, shall we?

You - "He was knocking frantically on somebody's door shouting for
help..."

Facts - He and a companion climbed a high fence (typical privacy
fences in that neighborhood are several meters high) with a locked
gate to get into the BACK yard of a private residence at four in the
morning.  If he was so eager for help, why didn't he stay at the front
door, where he had apparently rung the bell and then immediately run
off?  Why didn't he just move on to another house in the neighborhood
when he didn't get an answer quickly enough to suit him at the front
door?

You - "... and was shot several times - through the locked door."

Facts - It was a GLASS French door.  You try to make it sound like the
homeowner sprayed a dozen rounds blindly through the door.

You - "Some of the bullets were in his back and the suggestion was
that when the shooting started he had turned to run away before he was
killed."

Facts - Only two rounds from a small caliber pistol were fired.  There
weren't "some bullets" to go into his back, even if he turned
instantaneously.  Both rounds hit him in the side from the front.  His
companion, also in the back yard at the door, was uninjured.

See why I say that he (and you) suffer from memory flaws?

  -- http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=1994_1176188

-- 
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
 soul with evil."
                                      -- Socrates

guig  wrote:

:On 2008-09-05 04:02:46 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:
:
:> guig  wrote:
:> 
:> :On 2008-09-04 16:08:04 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:
:> :
:> :> Custos Custodum  wrote:
:> :>
:> :> :On Thu, 04 Sep 2008 03:57:56 -0700, Fred J. McCall
:> :> : wrote:
:> :> :
:> :> :>GM  wrote:
:> :> :>:
:> :> :>:The US must be a great place to stay.  They shoot people because they
:> :> :>:don't understand them!
:> :> :>:
:> :> :>
:> :> :>That would be as opposed to Great Britain, where the police apparently
:> :> :>do the same thing just because you're not white and want to ride the
:> :> :>subway...
:> :> :
:> :> :At least it's only the police, and not every trigger-happy redneck who
:> :> :has been given the power of judge, jury and executioner.
:> :> :
:> :>
:> :> Don't threaten them in their homes and you don't get shot.
:> :>
:> :> That's as opposed to London, where the rule would seem to be "Don't
:> :> appear in public without white skin".
:> :
:> :If I remember correctly the gentleman who was shot was lost and knocked
:> :on a door to try and get directions and was shot in the back whilst
:> :walking away from the property.
:> :
:> 
:> You don't remember correctly.
:
:Really? I remember an unarmed man looking for some help being shot in 
:the back by some thick yank too stupid to be allowed the control of a 
:zimmerframe let alone a firearm.
:

Really.  The fact is that a man who climbed a high fence with a locked
gate to get into the BACK yard of a home at a preposterous hour of the
morning was pounding on a French door and shouting incoherently and
got himself shot twice in the front for his trouble.  The moral here
is don't break into private property at night and try to frighten the
homeowners.

I can only assume your memory problems result from Alzheimer's or some
such.

-- 
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
 only stupid."
                            -- Heinrich Heine

soupdragon  wrote:

:guig  wrote in
:news:2008090508321875249-guig@yerawathamecom: 
:
:> On 2008-09-05 04:02:46 +0100, Fred J. McCall 
:> said: 
:> 
:>> guig  wrote:
:>> 
:>> :On 2008-09-04 16:08:04 +0100, Fred J. McCall 
:>> :said: 
:>> :
:>> :> Custos Custodum  wrote:
:>> :>
:>> :> :On Thu, 04 Sep 2008 03:57:56 -0700, Fred J. McCall
:>> :> : wrote:
:>> :> :
:>> :> :>GM  wrote:
:>> :> :>:
:>> :> :>:The US must be a great place to stay.  They shoot people
:>> :> :>:because they don't understand them!
:>> :> :>:
:>> :> :>
:>> :> :>That would be as opposed to Great Britain, where the police
:>> :> :>apparently do the same thing just because you're not white and
:>> :> :>want to ride the subway...
:>> :> :
:>> :> :At least it's only the police, and not every trigger-happy
:>> :> :redneck who has been given the power of judge, jury and
:>> :> :executioner. 
:>> :> :
:>> :>
:>> :> Don't threaten them in their homes and you don't get shot.
:>> :>
:>> :> That's as opposed to London, where the rule would seem to be
:>> :> "Don't appear in public without white skin".
:>> :
:>> :If I remember correctly the gentleman who was shot was lost and
:>> :knocked on a door to try and get directions and was shot in the back
:>> :whilst walking away from the property.
:>> :
:>> 
:>> You don't remember correctly.
:> 
:> Really? I remember an unarmed man looking for some help being shot in 
:> the back by some thick yank too stupid to be allowed the control of a 
:> zimmerframe let alone a firearm.
:
:Shooting people you don't understand seems to be the norm there. There 
:was another case around the same time when a home owner shot a Japanese
:student who he ordered to stop. The student didn't understand him and
:kept walking towards him, so he shot him. Turned out the student was
:lost and was looking for directions.
:

Again your memory seems to be flawed just a bit.  This particular
Japanese student was known for leaping at strangers and startling them
to get a laugh.  He got drunk and stupidly did something on private
property.

I guess he died laughing...

-- 
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
 soul with evil."
                                      -- Socrates

"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message 
news:fd02c45qm8do5a128uslap1b995jc3hpql@4ax.com...
> "nebulous"  wrote:
>
>
> Let's examine YOUR memory, shall we?
>
> You - "He was knocking frantically on somebody's door shouting for
> help..."
>
> Facts - He and a companion climbed a high fence (typical privacy
> fences in that neighborhood are several meters high) with a locked
> gate to get into the BACK yard of a private residence at four in the
> morning.  If he was so eager for help, why didn't he stay at the front
> door, where he had apparently rung the bell and then immediately run
> off?  Why didn't he just move on to another house in the neighborhood
> when he didn't get an answer quickly enough to suit him at the front
> door?

I thought I did pretty well Fred, given it was 14 years ago. I can't get 
your link to work - do you have to subscribe or something?

I did manage to find another one though.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F02E5D81631F93BA35752C0A962958260

No mention there of his companion climbing the fence- which you gave as a 
fact. - Indeed no mention of it being a high fence.

>
> You - "... and was shot several times - through the locked door."
>
> Facts - It was a GLASS French door.  You try to make it sound like the
> homeowner sprayed a dozen rounds blindly through the door.

This article says three.  I think several covers three doesn't it?
>
> You - "Some of the bullets were in his back and the suggestion was
> that when the shooting started he had turned to run away before he was
> killed."
>
> Facts - Only two rounds from a small caliber pistol were fired.  There
> weren't "some bullets" to go into his back, even if he turned
> instantaneously.  Both rounds hit him in the side from the front.  His
> companion, also in the back yard at the door, was uninjured.

Three here - no mention of his companion being in the yard and nothing about 
where he was hit. I'm pretty sure the story changed over time and I'm also 
pretty sure he was hit in the back, but I can't find any evidence at this 
point. I'm still doing about as well from a 14 year old story in our local 
paper as you are from having the information to hand.

Neb

"nebulous"  wrote in
news:g9ruu2$uui$1@localhost.localdomain: 


> Three here - no mention of his companion being in the yard and nothing
> about where he was hit. I'm pretty sure the story changed over time
> and I'm also pretty sure he was hit in the back, but I can't find any
> evidence at this point.

Once in the hand. He then turned and ran towards Graves shouting
I've been shot, at which point he was then hit in the back. Police
had a recording of the shooting as Agee's wife was calling them when
Agee decided to open fire without warning.

GM  wrote:

:On 5 Sep, 14:46, Fred J. McCall  wrote:
:> soupdragon  wrote:
:>
:> :guig  wrote in
:> :news:2008090508321875249-guig@yerawathamecom:
:> :
:> :> On 2008-09-05 04:02:46 +0100, Fred J. McCall 
:> :> said:
:> :>:>> guig  wrote:
:>
:> :>>
:> :>> :On 2008-09-04 16:08:04 +0100, Fred J. McCall 
:> :>> :said:
:> :>> :
:> :>> :> Custos Custodum  wrote:
:> :>> :>
:> :>> :> :On Thu, 04 Sep 2008 03:57:56 -0700, Fred J. McCall:>> :> : wrote:
:>
:> :>> :> :
:> :>> :> :>GM  wrote:
:> :>> :> :>:
:> :>> :> :>:The US must be a great place to stay.  They shoot people
:> :>> :> :>:because they don't understand them!
:> :>> :> :>:
:> :>> :> :>
:> :>> :> :>That would be as opposed to Great Britain, where the police
:> :>> :> :>apparently do the same thing just because you're not white and
:> :>> :> :>want to ride the subway...
:> :>> :> :
:> :>> :> :At least it's only the police, and not every trigger-happy
:> :>> :> :redneck who has been given the power of judge, jury and
:> :>> :> :executioner.
:> :>> :> :
:> :>> :>
:> :>> :> Don't threaten them in their homes and you don't get shot.
:> :>> :>
:> :>> :> That's as opposed to London, where the rule would seem to be
:> :>> :> "Don't appear in public without white skin".
:> :>> :
:> :>> :If I remember correctly the gentleman who was shot was lost and
:> :>> :knocked on a door to try and get directions and was shot in the back
:> :>> :whilst walking away from the property.
:> :>> :
:> :>>
:> :>> You don't remember correctly.
:> :>
:> :> Really? I remember an unarmed man looking for some help being shot in
:> :> the back by some thick yank too stupid to be allowed the control of a
:> :> zimmerframe let alone a firearm.
:> :
:> :Shooting people you don't understand seems to be the norm there. There
:> :was another case around the same time when a home owner shot a Japanese
:> :student who he ordered to stop. The student didn't understand him and
:> :kept walking towards him, so he shot him. Turned out the student was
:> :lost and was looking for directions.
:> :
:>
:> Again your memory seems to be flawed just a bit.  This particular
:> Japanese student was known for leaping at strangers and startling them
:> to get a laugh.  He got drunk and stupidly did something on private
:> property.
:>
:> I guess he died laughing...
:>
:
:Hey, do you do children's parties?
:

I thought I already was, given the exhibited maturity level of some
hereabouts...

-- 
"The odds get even - You blame the game.
 The odds get even - The stakes are the same.
 You bet your life."
                      -- "You Bet Your Life", Rush

soupdragon  wrote:

:soupdragon  wrote in news:Xns9B1093C127A9Bsouphotmailcom@
:62.141.42.83:
:
:> guig  wrote in
:> news:2008090508321875249-guig@yerawathamecom: 
:> 
:>> On 2008-09-05 04:02:46 +0100, Fred J. McCall 
:>> said: 
:>> 
:>>> guig  wrote:
:>>> 
:>>> :On 2008-09-04 16:08:04 +0100, Fred J. McCall 
:>>> :said: 
:>>> :
:>>> :> Custos Custodum  wrote:
:>>> :>
:>>> :> :On Thu, 04 Sep 2008 03:57:56 -0700, Fred J. McCall
:>>> :> : wrote:
:>>> :> :
:>>> :> :>GM  wrote:
:>>> :> :>:
:>>> :> :>:The US must be a great place to stay.  They shoot people
:>>> :> :>:because they don't understand them!
:>>> :> :>:
:>>> :> :>
:>>> :> :>That would be as opposed to Great Britain, where the police
:>>> :> :>apparently do the same thing just because you're not white and
:>>> :> :>want to ride the subway...
:>>> :> :
:>>> :> :At least it's only the police, and not every trigger-happy
:>>> :> :redneck who has been given the power of judge, jury and
:>>> :> :executioner. 
:>>> :> :
:>>> :>
:>>> :> Don't threaten them in their homes and you don't get shot.
:>>> :>
:>>> :> That's as opposed to London, where the rule would seem to be
:>>> :> "Don't appear in public without white skin".
:>>> :
:>>> :If I remember correctly the gentleman who was shot was lost and
:>>> :knocked on a door to try and get directions and was shot in the back
:>>> :whilst walking away from the property.
:>>> :
:>>> 
:>>> You don't remember correctly.
:>> 
:>> Really? I remember an unarmed man looking for some help being shot in 
:>> the back by some thick yank too stupid to be allowed the control of a 
:>> zimmerframe let alone a firearm.
:> 
:> Shooting people you don't understand seems to be the norm there. There 
:> was another case around the same time when a home owner shot a Japanese
:> student who he ordered to stop. The student didn't understand him and
:> kept walking towards him, so he shot him. Turned out the student was
:> lost and was looking for directions.
:> 
:
:Here you go. Two of them were looking for a Halloween party and rang the
:wrong doorbell. Loon with a gun ran out and shot him.
:
:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshihiro_Hattori
:

Thanks, but I'll go by what was in the papers at the time rather than
whatever someone decides they want Wikipedia to say.

-- 
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
 territory."
                                      --G. Behn

"nebulous"  wrote:

:
:"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message 
:news:fd02c45qm8do5a128uslap1b995jc3hpql@4ax.com...
:> "nebulous"  wrote:
:>
:>
:> Let's examine YOUR memory, shall we?
:>
:> You - "He was knocking frantically on somebody's door shouting for
:> help..."
:>
:> Facts - He and a companion climbed a high fence (typical privacy
:> fences in that neighborhood are several meters high) with a locked
:> gate to get into the BACK yard of a private residence at four in the
:> morning.  If he was so eager for help, why didn't he stay at the front
:> door, where he had apparently rung the bell and then immediately run
:> off?  Why didn't he just move on to another house in the neighborhood
:> when he didn't get an answer quickly enough to suit him at the front
:> door?
:
:I thought I did pretty well Fred, given it was 14 years ago. I can't get 
:your link to work - do you have to subscribe or something?
:

Nope.  No subscription necessary and it worked fine for me.

http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=1994_1176188

:
:I did manage to find another one though.
:
:http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F02E5D81631F93BA35752C0A962958260
:
:No mention there of his companion climbing the fence- which you gave as a 
:fact. - Indeed no mention of it being a high fence.
:

The story in the Houston Chronicle (the local paper for where the
events happened) states that both were in the back yard.  No way in
through a locked gate unless you climb over, so both must have climbed
over, since both were at the back door.

As for the height of the fence, I lived in Texas for over a decade and
know what the 'standard' fence around a back yard looks like in those
kind of neighborhoods.  They generally solid cedar and 6'-8' high.

:
:>
:> You - "... and was shot several times - through the locked door."
:>
:> Facts - It was a GLASS French door.  You try to make it sound like the
:> homeowner sprayed a dozen rounds blindly through the door.
:
:This article says three.  I think several covers three doesn't it?
:

Sorry, I misread the Chronicle article.  It was three, with two
hitting him in the side.

:>
:> You - "Some of the bullets were in his back and the suggestion was
:> that when the shooting started he had turned to run away before he was
:> killed."
:>
:> Facts - Only two rounds from a small caliber pistol were fired.  There
:> weren't "some bullets" to go into his back, even if he turned
:> instantaneously.  Both rounds hit him in the side from the front.  His
:> companion, also in the back yard at the door, was uninjured.
:
:Three here - no mention of his companion being in the yard and nothing about 
:where he was hit. I'm pretty sure the story changed over time and I'm also 
:pretty sure he was hit in the back, but I can't find any evidence at this 
:point. I'm still doing about as well from a 14 year old story in our local 
:paper as you are from having the information to hand.
:

The police reported that two shots hit him in the side and he died in
the yard.  That didn't change.

Bottom line is the man went on to private property that was guarded by
a locked gate in the wee small hours of the morning.  He then went to
a glass back door and proceeded to shout incoherently while pounding
on that door.

I'd rule that a suicide.

-- 
"It's always different.  It's always complex.  But at some point,
 somebody has to draw the line.  And that somebody is always me....
 I am the law."
                               -- Buffy, The Vampire Slayer

guig  wrote:

:On 2008-09-05 11:18:50 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:
:
:> 
:> Really.  The fact is that a man who climbed a high fence with a locked
:> gate to get into the BACK yard of a home at a preposterous hour of the
:> morning was pounding on a French door and shouting incoherently and
:> got himself shot twice in the front for his trouble.  The moral here
:> is don't break into private property at night and try to frighten the
:> homeowners.
:
:Did he break in? No, he knocked on a door.
:

No, he pounded on the door while yelling incoherently, after having
engage in criminal trespass by climbing over a locked fence onto
private property, with all this occurring at 4:00 AM.

Yes, climbing over the locked fence counts as 'breaking in'.

:
:So much for the "land of the brave" if one wee scots laddie scared the 
:shit out of some howitzer toting Texan thug.
:

You consider a .25 caliber pistol a "howitzer"?  You probably think
your 2" penis is a huge club, too.'

:> 
:> I can only assume your memory problems result from Alzheimer's or some
:> such.
:
:Your memory is a lot worse than ours ya daft wee manny.

Yeah.  It's always worse to get the facts right, isn't it?

-- 
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
 soul with evil."
                                      -- Socrates

guig  wrote:

:On 2008-09-05 14:31:26 +0100, soupdragon  said:
:
:>> 
:>> Really? I remember an unarmed man looking for some help being shot in
:>> the back by some thick yank too stupid to be allowed the control of a
:>> zimmerframe let alone a firearm.
:> 
:> Shooting people you don't understand seems to be the norm there. There
:> was another case around the same time when a home owner shot a Japanese
:> student who he ordered to stop. The student didn't understand him and
:> kept walking towards him, so he shot him. Turned out the student was
:> lost and was looking for directions.
:
:And he looked a bit funny, what with not being white and all. Them thar 
:septics don't like furriners.
:

Yeah!  After all it's not like he was Brazilian and trying to rude
public transit or something like that!

-- 
"It's always different.  It's always complex.  But at some point,
 somebody has to draw the line.  And that somebody is always me....
 I am the law."
                               -- Buffy, The Vampire Slayer

soupdragon  wrote:

:"nebulous"  wrote in
:news:g9ruu2$uui$1@localhost.localdomain: 
:
:
:> Three here - no mention of his companion being in the yard and nothing
:> about where he was hit. I'm pretty sure the story changed over time
:> and I'm also pretty sure he was hit in the back, but I can't find any
:> evidence at this point.
:
:Once in the hand. He then turned and ran towards Graves shouting
:I've been shot, at which point he was then hit in the back. Police
:had a recording of the shooting as Agee's wife was calling them when
:Agee decided to open fire without warning.
:

Cite?

-- 
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
 soul with evil."
                                      -- Socrates

"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message 
news:q1m3c4tebkhfhd6j592e42tr9qt5u5cf7q@4ax.com...
> "nebulous"  wrote:
>
> :
> :"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message
> :news:fd02c45qm8do5a128uslap1b995jc3hpql@4ax.com...
> :> "nebulous"  wrote:
> :>
> :>
> :> Let's examine YOUR memory, shall we?
> :>
> :> You - "He was knocking frantically on somebody's door shouting for
> :> help..."
> :>
> :> Facts - He and a companion climbed a high fence (typical privacy
> :> fences in that neighborhood are several meters high) with a locked
> :> gate to get into the BACK yard of a private residence at four in the
> :> morning.  If he was so eager for help, why didn't he stay at the front
> :> door, where he had apparently rung the bell and then immediately run
> :> off?  Why didn't he just move on to another house in the neighborhood
> :> when he didn't get an answer quickly enough to suit him at the front
> :> door?
> :
> :I thought I did pretty well Fred, given it was 14 years ago. I can't get
> :your link to work - do you have to subscribe or something?
> :
>
> Nope.  No subscription necessary and it worked fine for me.
>
> http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=1994_1176188
>

It has opened this time. There may have been something wrong with the first 
link.


> :
> :I did manage to find another one though.
> :
> :http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F02E5D81631F93BA35752C0A962958260
> :
> :No mention there of his companion climbing the fence- which you gave as a
> :fact. - Indeed no mention of it being a high fence.
> :
>
> The story in the Houston Chronicle (the local paper for where the
> events happened) states that both were in the back yard.  No way in
> through a locked gate unless you climb over, so both must have climbed
> over, since both were at the back door.
>
> As for the height of the fence, I lived in Texas for over a decade and
> know what the 'standard' fence around a back yard looks like in those
> kind of neighborhoods.  They generally solid cedar and 6'-8' high.
>
> :
> :>
> :> You - "... and was shot several times - through the locked door."
> :>
> :> Facts - It was a GLASS French door.  You try to make it sound like the
> :> homeowner sprayed a dozen rounds blindly through the door.
> :
> :This article says three.  I think several covers three doesn't it?
> :
>
> Sorry, I misread the Chronicle article.  It was three, with two
> hitting him in the side.
>
> :>
> :> You - "Some of the bullets were in his back and the suggestion was
> :> that when the shooting started he had turned to run away before he was
> :> killed."
> :>
> :> Facts - Only two rounds from a small caliber pistol were fired.  There
> :> weren't "some bullets" to go into his back, even if he turned
> :> instantaneously.  Both rounds hit him in the side from the front.  His
> :> companion, also in the back yard at the door, was uninjured.
> :
> :Three here - no mention of his companion being in the yard and nothing 
> about
> :where he was hit. I'm pretty sure the story changed over time and I'm 
> also
> :pretty sure he was hit in the back, but I can't find any evidence at this
> :point. I'm still doing about as well from a 14 year old story in our 
> local
> :paper as you are from having the information to hand.
> :
>
> The police reported that two shots hit him in the side and he died in
> the yard.  That didn't change.
>
> Bottom line is the man went on to private property that was guarded by
> a locked gate in the wee small hours of the morning.  He then went to
> a glass back door and proceeded to shout incoherently while pounding
> on that door.
>
> I'd rule that a suicide.


Again I'm pretty sure the forensic stuff did change over time. About the 
only place I could get that would be our local paper though, but they don't 
have their archives online. I certainly didn't remember it was that long 
ago.

Again there is no mention in the Houston Chronicle article of Graves being 
in the back yard. It also says De Vries jumped over the fence - which 
doesn't make it sound like a high security fence either.

The description of the two of them going up the street knocking on doors is 
a bit misleading. De Vries had some sort of strange paranoid/psychotic 
episode and was running away from Graves as well as the rest of the people 
in the car.

I don't think we are very far apart on the story. Where we would disagree I 
suspect is in the reasonableness of the outcome. I don't see shooting an 
unarmed man, who was probably going through some sort of acute episode of 
mental illness, for banging on someone's door as a reasonable response. 
Though in fairness Jeffrey Agee didn't know how disturbed De Vries was.

You and to a large extent the American judicial system did.

Wasn't there a civil case mounted by the widow? Do you have any detail on 
that? I seem to remember the man's insurance company made a payment to her, 
possibly with no admission of liability.

It is a different world there from here. The background to it was that it 
was around a time when several British Tourists had been shot in America, 
drawing a lot of publicity here and making visitors to the States concerned 
about their welfare. That probably contributed to De Vries state and 
ironically an extreme panicked reaction about his safety got him killed.

Neb

"nebulous"  wrote:

:
:"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message 
:news:q1m3c4tebkhfhd6j592e42tr9qt5u5cf7q@4ax.com...
:> "nebulous"  wrote:
:>
:> :
:> :"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message
:> :news:fd02c45qm8do5a128uslap1b995jc3hpql@4ax.com...
:> :> "nebulous"  wrote:
:> :>
:> :>
:> :> Let's examine YOUR memory, shall we?
:> :>
:> :> You - "He was knocking frantically on somebody's door shouting for
:> :> help..."
:> :>
:> :> Facts - He and a companion climbed a high fence (typical privacy
:> :> fences in that neighborhood are several meters high) with a locked
:> :> gate to get into the BACK yard of a private residence at four in the
:> :> morning.  If he was so eager for help, why didn't he stay at the front
:> :> door, where he had apparently rung the bell and then immediately run
:> :> off?  Why didn't he just move on to another house in the neighborhood
:> :> when he didn't get an answer quickly enough to suit him at the front
:> :> door?
:> :
:> :I thought I did pretty well Fred, given it was 14 years ago. I can't get
:> :your link to work - do you have to subscribe or something?
:> :
:>
:> Nope.  No subscription necessary and it worked fine for me.
:>
:> http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=1994_1176188
:>
:
:It has opened this time. There may have been something wrong with the first 
:link.
:

The web site may have had a problem when you tried it.  I just copied
the same link out of my other article.

:
:> :
:> :I did manage to find another one though.
:> :
:> :http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F02E5D81631F93BA35752C0A962958260
:> :
:> :No mention there of his companion climbing the fence- which you gave as a
:> :fact. - Indeed no mention of it being a high fence.
:> :
:>
:> The story in the Houston Chronicle (the local paper for where the
:> events happened) states that both were in the back yard.  No way in
:> through a locked gate unless you climb over, so both must have climbed
:> over, since both were at the back door.
:>
:> As for the height of the fence, I lived in Texas for over a decade and
:> know what the 'standard' fence around a back yard looks like in those
:> kind of neighborhoods.  They generally solid cedar and 6'-8' high.
:>
:> :
:> :>
:> :> You - "... and was shot several times - through the locked door."
:> :>
:> :> Facts - It was a GLASS French door.  You try to make it sound like the
:> :> homeowner sprayed a dozen rounds blindly through the door.
:> :
:> :This article says three.  I think several covers three doesn't it?
:> :
:>
:> Sorry, I misread the Chronicle article.  It was three, with two
:> hitting him in the side.
:>
:> :>
:> :> You - "Some of the bullets were in his back and the suggestion was
:> :> that when the shooting started he had turned to run away before he was
:> :> killed."
:> :>
:> :> Facts - Only two rounds from a small caliber pistol were fired.  There
:> :> weren't "some bullets" to go into his back, even if he turned
:> :> instantaneously.  Both rounds hit him in the side from the front.  His
:> :> companion, also in the back yard at the door, was uninjured.
:> :
:> :Three here - no mention of his companion being in the yard and nothing about
:> :where he was hit. I'm pretty sure the story changed over time and I'm also
:> :pretty sure he was hit in the back, but I can't find any evidence at this
:> :point. I'm still doing about as well from a 14 year old story in our local
:> :paper as you are from having the information to hand.
:> :
:>
:> The police reported that two shots hit him in the side and he died in
:> the yard.  That didn't change.
:>
:> Bottom line is the man went on to private property that was guarded by
:> a locked gate in the wee small hours of the morning.  He then went to
:> a glass back door and proceeded to shout incoherently while pounding
:> on that door.
:>
:> I'd rule that a suicide.
:>
:
:Again I'm pretty sure the forensic stuff did change over time. About the 
:only place I could get that would be our local paper though, but they don't 
:have their archives online. I certainly didn't remember it was that long 
:ago.
:

I tend to worry about the biases of your home paper for the reason you
note below.

:
:Again there is no mention in the Houston Chronicle article of Graves being 
:in the back yard. It also says De Vries jumped over the fence - which 
:doesn't make it sound like a high security fence either.
:

It wouldn't have been a 'security fence', per se.  Typical Texas usage
is what is called a 'privacy fence', which is why they're that high
and solid wood.  Usually constructed out of quarter inch wood planks
butted up against each other.

:
:The description of the two of them going up the street knocking on doors is 
:a bit misleading. De Vries had some sort of strange paranoid/psychotic 
:episode and was running away from Graves as well as the rest of the people 
:in the car.
:
:I don't think we are very far apart on the story. Where we would disagree I 
:suspect is in the reasonableness of the outcome. I don't see shooting an 
:unarmed man, who was probably going through some sort of acute episode of 
:mental illness, for banging on someone's door as a reasonable response. 
:Though in fairness Jeffrey Agee didn't know how disturbed De Vries was.
:
:You and to a large extent the American judicial system did.
:

The judicial system really didn't have a choice and you need to
differentiate between "the American judicial system" and "the judicial
system of the State of Texas".  Most things are NOT handled at the
level of "the American judicial system".

That's why when it went to the Grand Jury for investigation it was
'not for prosecution'.  Texas law says that if the guy is on private
property between sunset and sunrise he is automatically assumed under
the law to be a threat to the life and safety of the homeowner.  That
means that any use of deadly force is automatically self defense under
the law (in Texas; this varies by State).

This guy went over a locked fence at a time when everyone was asleep
to be where he was.  He then acted in an irrational and threatening
manner, banging on a glass door and yelling incomprehensibly.

It really doesn't matter if he was drunk, nuts, or just screwing with
the locals because he could.  Crazy people are dangerous, too.

:
:Wasn't there a civil case mounted by the widow? Do you have any detail on 
:that? I seem to remember the man's insurance company made a payment to her, 
:possibly with no admission of liability.
:

I wasn't aware of that, but if there was I really see no reason why
they'd pay.

:
:It is a different world there from here. The background to it was that it 
:was around a time when several British Tourists had been shot in America, 
:drawing a lot of publicity here and making visitors to the States concerned 
:about their welfare. That probably contributed to De Vries state and 
:ironically an extreme panicked reaction about his safety got him killed.
:

This is why I tend to question the accuracy of your local reporting. I
don't recall any large spate of shooting of Brits, but I can see how a
local paper would play that up.  Good for circulation and all that.

-- 
"I was lucky in the order.  But I've always been lucky
 when it comes to killin' folks."
                              -- William Munny, "Unforgiven"

"nebulous"  wrote:
:
:"nebulous"  wrote in message 
:news:g9tdbp$gu0$1@localhost.localdomain...
:>
:> "conwaycaine"  wrote in message 
:> news:cBawk.22252$XB4.20884@bignews9.bellsouth.net...
:>>
:>> "soupdragon"  wrote in message 
:>> news:Xns9B1093C127A9Bsouphotmailcom@62.141.42.83...
:>>> guig  wrote in
:>>> news:2008090508321875249-guig@yerawathamecom:
:>>>> On 2008-09-05 04:02:46 +0100, Fred J. McCall 
:>>>>> :> Custos Custodum  wrote:
:>>
:>> Well, here we go again.
:>> A rehash of all American evils, real or imagined, that have occurred over 
:>> the past fifty years.
:>> Don't you Yurps have anything better to do?
:>> I might suggest you take a peek towards the East and see what your new 
:>> masters are up to this week.
:>
:> It's not just American's Conway- I kinda don't like to hear of unarmed 
:> Scots being shot. He was even an Aeberdonian.
:>
:> Here's one that hopefully will annoy you as well- he was a Weegie though.
:>
:> So you're not allowed to sound Irish and carry a tableleg in London eh?
:>
:
:Growing old - I didn't even provide the link.
:
:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3974461.stm
:
:Here you are. 
:

And here we see the difference.  Scots (and others) who get shot over
here usually have to force their way onto private property and act in
a threatening way in order for it to happen.  In Britain, one need
only be minding one's own business in a public place for the police to
shoot you.

-- 
"If it's the fool who likes to rush in.  
 And if it's the angel who never does try.
 And if it's me who will lose or win
 Then I'll make my best guess and I won't care why.
 Come on and get me, you twist of fate.
 I'm standing right here, Mr Destiny.
 If you want to talk, well then I'll relate.
 If you don't, so what?  'Cuz you don't scare me.
                      -- "Gunfighter", Blues Traveler

"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message 
news:qcl4c4pfd9q6foaidrgo6egnn1qqv5e0qf@4ax.com...
> "nebulous"  wrote:
>
> This is why I tend to question the accuracy of your local reporting. I
> don't recall any large spate of shooting of Brits, but I can see how a
> local paper would play that up.  Good for circulation and all that.

The local paper covered the De Vries story in painstaking detail. Although 
it was a long time ago.

The tourist stories wasn't our local paper. That was all over our media. 
Tourism from Britain to Florida dropped off dramatically. They even produced 
a bumper sticker saying "come back-we wren't shooting at you." One of the 
highest profile cases was a couple who parked up overnight and if I remember 
correctly they were both shot. There was such concern about the targeting of 
tourists that the registration plates for hire cars were changed so that 
they were not immediately identifiable. I suppose it depends what you call a 
large spate.

http://tinyurl.com/5chopb


http://www.tgorski.com/Adolescents/Kids%20In%20Prison%20-%20Miami%20Herald%20Series%20March%202001.htm

quote from that one.
"Legislators added muscle to the laws in the 1990s on the heels of notorious 
tourist killings.

In September 1993 came the ``shots heard around the state,'' as a Herald 
headline described a tourist murder at a rest stop in the piney corridor of 
I-10 near Monticello. Four teens were held, in the ninth tourist slaying in 
Florida since the previous fall. One culprit had 30 prior arrests, another, 
26. The teens had ambushed a couple napping in their rental car, killing the 
man and wounding his companion. "



I think it is your memory that is struggling this time Fred.


> -- 
> "I was lucky in the order.  But I've always been lucky
> when it comes to killin' folks."
>                              -- William Munny, "Unforgiven"

One of my favourite films. However that is escapism. We are talking about 
real life.

Neb

"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message 
news:uhn4c4lmjbebj22kk9gb5rk3rr9ld6kv6h@4ax.com...
> "nebulous"  wrote:


>
> And here we see the difference.  Scots (and others) who get shot over
> here usually have to force their way onto private property and act in
> a threatening way in order for it to happen.  In Britain, one need
> only be minding one's own business in a public place for the police to
> shoot you.
>

You sure about that?

American police don't exactly have a clean record either when it comes to 
visiting violence on the populace. My fellow Scot was shot because he 
sounded Irish. How many people have been shot by the police in America 
because they were black?

Neb

On 2008-09-06 02:25:23 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:

> guig  wrote:
> 
> :On 2008-09-05 11:18:50 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:
> :
> :>
> :> Really.  The fact is that a man who climbed a high fence with a locked
> :> gate to get into the BACK yard of a home at a preposterous hour of the
> :> morning was pounding on a French door and shouting incoherently and
> :> got himself shot twice in the front for his trouble.  The moral here
> :> is don't break into private property at night and try to frighten the
> :> homeowners.
> :
> :Did he break in? No, he knocked on a door.
> :
> 
> No, he pounded on the door while yelling incoherently, after having
> engage in criminal trespass by climbing over a locked fence onto
> private property, with all this occurring at 4:00 AM.

*lol* of course he did. That would be according to the septic murderer 
and the corrupt septic Police force now wouldn't it. Somehow I think 
the truth of the matter is quite different, a bit like the septic 
Police saying that they only "handcuffed" Rodney King.

> 
> Yes, climbing over the locked fence counts as 'breaking in'.
> 
> :
> :So much for the "land of the brave" if one wee scots laddie scared the
> :shit out of some howitzer toting Texan thug.
> :
> 
> You consider a .25 caliber pistol a "howitzer"?  You probably think
> your 2" penis is a huge club, too.'

What was it the last lassie who saw ye nekkid said? Oh aye ... "oh look 
... a penis ... but smaller".

> 
> :>
> :> I can only assume your memory problems result from Alzheimer's or some
> :> such.
> :
> :Your memory is a lot worse than ours ya daft wee manny.
> 
> Yeah.  It's always worse to get the facts right, isn't it?

I've yet to meet a septic who is capable of knowing or understanding a fact.

On 2008-09-06 11:45:14 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:

> 
> And here we see the difference.  Scots (and others) who get shot over
> here usually have to force their way onto private property and act in
> a threatening way in order for it to happen.  In Britain, one need
> only be minding one's own business in a public place for the police to
> shoot you.

Feel free to come over here (you'll need a passport for that bawbag) 
and mind your own business.

"nebulous"  wrote:

:
:"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message 
:news:qcl4c4pfd9q6foaidrgo6egnn1qqv5e0qf@4ax.com...
:> "nebulous"  wrote:
:>
:> This is why I tend to question the accuracy of your local reporting. I
:> don't recall any large spate of shooting of Brits, but I can see how a
:> local paper would play that up.  Good for circulation and all that.
:
:The local paper covered the De Vries story in painstaking detail. Although 
:it was a long time ago.
:
:The tourist stories wasn't our local paper. That was all over our media. 
:Tourism from Britain to Florida dropped off dramatically. They even produced 
:a bumper sticker saying "come back-we wren't shooting at you." One of the 
:highest profile cases was a couple who parked up overnight and if I remember 
:correctly they were both shot. There was such concern about the targeting of 
:tourists that the registration plates for hire cars were changed so that 
:they were not immediately identifiable. I suppose it depends what you call a 
:large spate.
:

Well, I remember the 'tourists in Florida' thing.  I just don't
remember it being targeted specifically at the British.  I thought
Germans got the worst of it.

When they caught one of these folks and asked him why tourists, his
response was quite interesting.  It was something like, "I knew people
driving rental cars wouldn't have a gun."

As a consequence, they stopped putting such prominent stickers on
rental cars so they weren't so easy to pick out.

<snip>

:
:I think it is your memory that is struggling this time Fred.
:

No, I just don't have a slant on events that makes it sound like
British visitors were being attacked everywhere in the US when it was
'tourists in Florida' that it was happening to.

:
:> -- 
:> "I was lucky in the order.  But I've always been lucky
:> when it comes to killin' folks."
:>                              -- William Munny, "Unforgiven"
:
:One of my favourite films. However that is escapism. We are talking about 
:real life.
:

Yes, we are.

-- 
"They made hypocrite judgments after the fact 
 But the name of the game is be hit and hit back."

                -- "Boom Boom Mancini", Warren Zevon

"nebulous"  wrote:

:
:"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message 
:news:uhn4c4lmjbebj22kk9gb5rk3rr9ld6kv6h@4ax.com...
:> "nebulous"  wrote:
:>
:> And here we see the difference.  Scots (and others) who get shot over
:> here usually have to force their way onto private property and act in
:> a threatening way in order for it to happen.  In Britain, one need
:> only be minding one's own business in a public place for the police to
:> shoot you.
:>
:
:You sure about that?
:

Quite sure.

:
:American police don't exactly have a clean record either when it comes to 
:visiting violence on the populace. 
:

True, but rather irrelevant.

:
:My fellow Scot was shot because he 
:sounded Irish. How many people have been shot by the police in America 
:because they were black?
:

None.

[You will now no doubt bring up Amadou Diallo.]

-- 
You have never lived until you have almost died.
Life has a special meaning that the protected
    will never know.

guig  wrote:

:On 2008-09-06 02:25:23 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:
:
:> guig  wrote:
:> 
:> :On 2008-09-05 11:18:50 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:
:> :
:> :>
:> :> Really.  The fact is that a man who climbed a high fence with a locked
:> :> gate to get into the BACK yard of a home at a preposterous hour of the
:> :> morning was pounding on a French door and shouting incoherently and
:> :> got himself shot twice in the front for his trouble.  The moral here
:> :> is don't break into private property at night and try to frighten the
:> :> homeowners.
:> :
:> :Did he break in? No, he knocked on a door.
:> :
:> 
:> No, he pounded on the door while yelling incoherently, after having
:> engage in criminal trespass by climbing over a locked fence onto
:> private property, with all this occurring at 4:00 AM.
:
:*lol* of course he did. That would be according to the septic murderer 
:and the corrupt septic Police force now wouldn't it. 
:

Yeah, they tend to report the facts.

:
:Somehow I think 
:

Don't flatter yourself.  No you don't.

:
:the truth of the matter is quite different, a bit like the septic 
:Police saying that they only "handcuffed" Rodney King.
:

That's your 'fact'?  BWAAAAAHAAAAhaahahahahahahaha!!!!

:> 
:> Yes, climbing over the locked fence counts as 'breaking in'.
:> 
:> :
:> :So much for the "land of the brave" if one wee scots laddie scared the
:> :shit out of some howitzer toting Texan thug.
:> :
:> 
:> You consider a .25 caliber pistol a "howitzer"?  You probably think
:> your 2" penis is a huge club, too.'
:
:What was it the last lassie who saw ye nekkid said? Oh aye ... "oh look 
:... a penis ... but smaller".
:

Wasn't your mistaken for a clit?

:> 
:> :>
:> :> I can only assume your memory problems result from Alzheimer's or some
:> :> such.
:> :
:> :Your memory is a lot worse than ours ya daft wee manny.
:> 
:> Yeah.  It's always worse to get the facts right, isn't it?
:
:I've yet to meet a septic who is capable of knowing or understanding a fact.
:

Yes, I'm sure sane people avoid you in droves...

-- 
"There's nothing wrong with you that reincarnation won't cure."
                              -- Jack E. Leonard

guig  wrote:

:On 2008-09-06 11:45:14 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:
:> 
:> And here we see the difference.  Scots (and others) who get shot over
:> here usually have to force their way onto private property and act in
:> a threatening way in order for it to happen.  In Britain, one need
:> only be minding one's own business in a public place for the police to
:> shoot you.
:>
:
:Feel free to come over here (you'll need a passport for that bawbag) 
:and mind your own business.
:

Typical.  Someone makes you look like a fool so you want them dead.

You can't kill everyone on the entire planet, son, and that's your
only hope of appearing intelligent...

-- 
"He missed an invaluable opportunity to hold his tongue."
                             -- Andrew Lang

On 2008-09-07 02:07:42 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:

> guig  wrote:
> 
> :On 2008-09-06 02:25:23 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:
> :
> :> guig  wrote:
> :>
> :> :On 2008-09-05 11:18:50 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:
> :> :
> :> :>
> :> :> Really.  The fact is that a man who climbed a high fence with a locked
> :> :> gate to get into the BACK yard of a home at a preposterous hour of the
> :> :> morning was pounding on a French door and shouting incoherently and
> :> :> got himself shot twice in the front for his trouble.  The moral here
> :> :> is don't break into private property at night and try to frighten the
> :> :> homeowners.
> :> :
> :> :Did he break in? No, he knocked on a door.
> :> :
> :>
> :> No, he pounded on the door while yelling incoherently, after having
> :> engage in criminal trespass by climbing over a locked fence onto
> :> private property, with all this occurring at 4:00 AM.
> :
> :*lol* of course he did. That would be according to the septic murderer
> :and the corrupt septic Police force now wouldn't it.
> :
> 
> Yeah, they tend to report the facts.

Facts? In America? Highly unlikely.

On 2008-09-07 01:59:36 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:

> 
> :My fellow Scot was shot because he
> :sounded Irish. How many people have been shot by the police in America
> :because they were black?
> :
> 
> None.

Really? *lol*

>

On 2008-09-07 02:12:50 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:

> guig  wrote:
> 
> :On 2008-09-06 11:45:14 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:
> :>
> :> And here we see the difference.  Scots (and others) who get shot over
> :> here usually have to force their way onto private property and act in
> :> a threatening way in order for it to happen.  In Britain, one need
> :> only be minding one's own business in a public place for the police to
> :> shoot you.
> :>
> :
> :Feel free to come over here (you'll need a passport for that bawbag)
> :and mind your own business.
> :
> 
> Typical.  Someone makes you look like a fool so you want them dead.

Please point out where I said I wanted you dead. I think your are 
putting a septic viewpoint on my comment.

> 
> You can't kill everyone on the entire planet, son, and that's your
> only hope of appearing intelligent...

"kill everyone" .... I will leave that task up to you septics as that 
seems to be your national pastime, but maybe you should try it on 
someone tougher than 14yo wee Iraqi lassies.

guig  wrote:

:On 2008-09-07 02:07:42 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:
:
:> guig  wrote:
:> 
:> :On 2008-09-06 02:25:23 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:
:> :
:> :> guig  wrote:
:> :>
:> :> :On 2008-09-05 11:18:50 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:
:> :> :
:> :> :>
:> :> :> Really.  The fact is that a man who climbed a high fence with a locked
:> :> :> gate to get into the BACK yard of a home at a preposterous hour of the
:> :> :> morning was pounding on a French door and shouting incoherently and
:> :> :> got himself shot twice in the front for his trouble.  The moral here
:> :> :> is don't break into private property at night and try to frighten the
:> :> :> homeowners.
:> :> :
:> :> :Did he break in? No, he knocked on a door.
:> :> :
:> :>
:> :> No, he pounded on the door while yelling incoherently, after having
:> :> engage in criminal trespass by climbing over a locked fence onto
:> :> private property, with all this occurring at 4:00 AM.
:> :
:> :*lol* of course he did. That would be according to the septic murderer
:> :and the corrupt septic Police force now wouldn't it.
:> :
:> 
:> Yeah, they tend to report the facts.
:
:Facts? In America? Highly unlikely.
:

And THIS is what you lot call 'clever'?  Hell, I know 13 year olds
that can do better!

-- 
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
 territory."
                                      --G. Behn

guig  wrote:

:On 2008-09-07 02:12:50 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:
:
:> guig  wrote:
:> 
:> :On 2008-09-06 11:45:14 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:
:> :>
:> :> And here we see the difference.  Scots (and others) who get shot over
:> :> here usually have to force their way onto private property and act in
:> :> a threatening way in order for it to happen.  In Britain, one need
:> :> only be minding one's own business in a public place for the police to
:> :> shoot you.
:> :>
:> :
:> :Feel free to come over here (you'll need a passport for that bawbag)
:> :and mind your own business.
:> :
:> 
:> Typical.  Someone makes you look like a fool so you want them dead.
:
:Please point out where I said I wanted you dead. I think your are 
:putting a septic viewpoint on my comment.
:
:> 
:> You can't kill everyone on the entire planet, son, and that's your
:> only hope of appearing intelligent...
:
:"kill everyone" .... I will leave that task up to you septics as that 
:seems to be your national pastime, but maybe you should try it on 
:someone tougher than 14yo wee Iraqi lassies.

You really are just too stupid to bother with further.

Even Englander and Asshat are more entertaining that you...

-- 
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
 only stupid."
                            -- Heinrich Heine

"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message 
news:th96c4l42enhkh8sdgkkjdm3au9vqff44e@4ax.com...
> "nebulous"  wrote:
>
> :
> :"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message
> :news:uhn4c4lmjbebj22kk9gb5rk3rr9ld6kv6h@4ax.com...
> :> "nebulous"  wrote:
> :>
> :> And here we see the difference.  Scots (and others) who get shot over
> :> here usually have to force their way onto private property and act in
> :> a threatening way in order for it to happen.  In Britain, one need
> :> only be minding one's own business in a public place for the police to
> :> shoot you.
> :>
> :
> :You sure about that?
> :
>
> Quite sure.
>
> :
> :American police don't exactly have a clean record either when it comes to
> :visiting violence on the populace.
> :
>
> True, but rather irrelevant.
>
> :
> :My fellow Scot was shot because he
> :sounded Irish. How many people have been shot by the police in America
> :because they were black?
> :
>
> None.
>
> [You will now no doubt bring up Amadou Diallo.]


I was thinking of him initially. He was probably the one who made most 
headlines over here however:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0106.coates.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/30/us/30lima.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

This one wasn't just black - he also had the cheek to run away

http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=ae5ce8e944ed97119bac2df0977f1f79

This man was armed - an off-duty cop making an arrest.

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/bronx/2008/03/14/2008-03-14_kin_of_slain_offduty_westchester_cop_rip.html

another cop making an arrest

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19921119&slug=1525447

no shooting in this one

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/apr/29/local/me-miller29

People make mistakes and have preconceptions, but when you are armed these 
mistakes become pretty serious.

Neb

"nebulous"  wrote:

:
:"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message 
:news:th96c4l42enhkh8sdgkkjdm3au9vqff44e@4ax.com...
:> "nebulous"  wrote:
:>
:> :
:> :"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message
:> :news:uhn4c4lmjbebj22kk9gb5rk3rr9ld6kv6h@4ax.com...
:> :> "nebulous"  wrote:
:> :>
:> :> And here we see the difference.  Scots (and others) who get shot over
:> :> here usually have to force their way onto private property and act in
:> :> a threatening way in order for it to happen.  In Britain, one need
:> :> only be minding one's own business in a public place for the police to
:> :> shoot you.
:> :>
:> :
:> :You sure about that?
:> :
:>
:> Quite sure.
:>
:> :
:> :American police don't exactly have a clean record either when it comes to
:> :visiting violence on the populace.
:> :
:>
:> True, but rather irrelevant.
:>
:> :
:> :My fellow Scot was shot because he
:> :sounded Irish. How many people have been shot by the police in America
:> :because they were black?
:> :
:>
:> None.
:>
:> [You will now no doubt bring up Amadou Diallo.]
:
:
:I was thinking of him initially. He was probably the one who made most 
:headlines over here however:

Real hard to sell any of these as "they were shot just because they
were black", though I expect you to try.

:
:http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0106.coates.html
:

Well, vehicular assault can get you shot.  Note that the officer in
question was also black, so saying the victim was shot because he was
black seems a bit of a stretch.

:
:http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/30/us/30lima.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
:

They just don't deploy SWAT for traffic tickets.  Once shots are fired
(in this case because of attacking pit bulls) bad things can happen.

:
:This one wasn't just black - he also had the cheek to run away
:
:http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=ae5ce8e944ed97119bac2df0977f1f79
:

Gee, police responding to a gunfight.  Small wonder someone got shot. 
:
:This man was armed - an off-duty cop making an arrest.
:
:http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/bronx/2008/03/14/2008-03-14_kin_of_slain_offduty_westchester_cop_rip.html
:

The victim failed to identify himself as a police officer, failed to
lower his weapon when instructed to by uniformed and armed officers,
and turned toward the armed officers.

Again a pretty hard sell as "shot because he was black", unless one
happens to be a racist.

:
:another cop making an arrest
:
:http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19921119&slug=1525447
:

Why in the hell would you draw a gun when arresting an unarmed fare
evader?  Again, man with a gun drawn and pointed at a civilian who
failed to identify himself as a police officer.

:
:no shooting in this one
:
:http://articles.latimes.com/2005/apr/29/local/me-miller29
:

No shooting and the guy was a car thief?  What's your point here?

:
:People make mistakes and have preconceptions, but when you are armed these 
:mistakes become pretty serious.
:

'Preconceptions' generally don't appear to have been the problem in
these cases.  

-- 
"It's always different.  It's always complex.  But at some point,
 somebody has to draw the line.  And that somebody is always me....
 I am the law."
                               -- Buffy, The Vampire Slayer

"guig"  wrote in message 
news:2008090623125511272-guig@yerawathamecom...
<Snip>

> I've yet to meet a septic who is capable of knowing or understanding a 
> fact.

Here's a fact for you.
Your ass belongs to Russia.

On 2008-09-07 09:22:40 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:

> 
> :"kill everyone" .... I will leave that task up to you septics as that
> :seems to be your national pastime, but maybe you should try it on
> :someone tougher than 14yo wee Iraqi lassies.
> 
> You really are just too stupid to bother with further.

You must be looking in the mirror bawsack.

> 
> Even Englander and Asshat are more entertaining that you...

On 2008-09-07 09:21:15 +0100, Fred J. McCall  said:

> 
> :>
> :> Yeah, they tend to report the facts.
> :
> :Facts? In America? Highly unlikely.
> :
> 
> And THIS is what you lot call 'clever'?  Hell, I know 13 year olds
> that can do better!

Deary me .... you're a very poor wee manny .... you just get it do you 
.... here's 50p go buy yourself a clue.

"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message 
news:8vk7c45ptb2pevqok33ahoke2ok5r5e3bl@4ax.com...
> "nebulous"  wrote:
>
> :
> :"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message
> :news:th96c4l42enhkh8sdgkkjdm3au9vqff44e@4ax.com...
> :> "nebulous"  wrote:
> :>
> :> :
> :> :"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message
> :> :news:uhn4c4lmjbebj22kk9gb5rk3rr9ld6kv6h@4ax.com...
> :> :> "nebulous"  wrote:
> :> :>
> :> :> And here we see the difference.  Scots (and others) who get shot 
> over
> :> :> here usually have to force their way onto private property and act 
> in
> :> :> a threatening way in order for it to happen.  In Britain, one need
> :> :> only be minding one's own business in a public place for the police 
> to
> :> :> shoot you.
> :> :>
> :> :
> :> :You sure about that?
> :> :
> :>
> :> Quite sure.
> :>
> :> :
> :> :American police don't exactly have a clean record either when it comes 
> to
> :> :visiting violence on the populace.
> :> :
> :>
> :> True, but rather irrelevant.
> :>
> :> :
> :> :My fellow Scot was shot because he
> :> :sounded Irish. How many people have been shot by the police in America
> :> :because they were black?
> :> :
> :>
> :> None.
> :>
> :> [You will now no doubt bring up Amadou Diallo.]
> :
> :
> :I was thinking of him initially. He was probably the one who made most
> :headlines over here however:
>
> Real hard to sell any of these as "they were shot just because they
> were black", though I expect you to try.

Naaw I'm going to withdraw. We're never going to agree on many things I'm 
pretty sure. I find many of these situations including De Vries, our Weegie 
in London and those Blue on Black stories as I saw them described on a 
website, absolutely unacceptable - and you don't. We live in different 
societies with different backgrounds, different cultures and different 
journeys to get here.

Nevertheless we share the same planet!

Neb

"conwaycaine"  wrote in message 
news:VTRwk.26073$kh2.12297@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>
> "guig"  wrote in message 
> news:2008090623125511272-guig@yerawathamecom...
> <Snip>
>
>> I've yet to meet a septic who is capable of knowing or understanding a 
>> fact.
>
> Here's a fact for you.
> Your ass belongs to Russia.


Well they *did* liberate Europe at a cost of 20 million men after all.
But then I wouldn't expect you to understand a basic fact like that.

"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message 
news:IsadnYaNEeILwlvVnZ2dnUVZ8rKdnZ2d@westnet.com.au...
>
> "conwaycaine"  wrote in message 
> news:VTRwk.26073$kh2.12297@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>>
>> "guig"  wrote in message 
>> news:2008090623125511272-guig@yerawathamecom...
>> <Snip>
>>
>>> I've yet to meet a septic who is capable of knowing or understanding a 
>>> fact.
>>
>> Here's a fact for you.
>> Your ass belongs to Russia.
>
>
> Well they *did* liberate Europe at a cost of 20 million men after all.
> But then I wouldn't expect you to understand a basic fact like that.
>
>
Adam?  What's the difference between a "basic fact" and a "home truth"?

- nilita

"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message 
news:IsadnYaNEeILwlvVnZ2dnUVZ8rKdnZ2d@westnet.com.au...
>
> "conwaycaine"  wrote in message 
> news:VTRwk.26073$kh2.12297@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>>
>> "guig"  wrote in message 
>> news:2008090623125511272-guig@yerawathamecom...
>> <Snip>
>>
>>> I've yet to meet a septic who is capable of knowing or understanding a 
>>> fact.
>>
>> Here's a fact for you.
>> Your ass belongs to Russia.
>
>
> Well they *did* liberate Europe at a cost of 20 million men after all.
> But then I wouldn't expect you to understand a basic fact like that.

For that comment you should receive a high position in the new Russian 
Pan-Europe co-prosperity sphere.

BTW, a German friend of mine just returned from a visit to the old country.
He reports that the Germans are very worried at the current turn of events.
And the Poles and Ukrainians are terrified.

Only the dumbass Brits are still muddling along as though nothing is 
happening.
While Putin, the ex KGB man, sees how far he can go without getting Moscow 
vaporized.

And you yourself said, oh one of very short memory, a few posts back, the 
world is about to end and no one seems to give a rat's ass.

I can here the shorted sighted Yurps now.
"Well, we may all be going down the tube but it will be the end of 
America!!!"

"conwaycaine"  wrote in message 
news:uCvxk.25789$rD2.647@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message 
> news:IsadnYaNEeILwlvVnZ2dnUVZ8rKdnZ2d@westnet.com.au...
>>
>> "conwaycaine"  wrote in message 
>> news:VTRwk.26073$kh2.12297@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>>>
>>> "guig"  wrote in message 
>>> news:2008090623125511272-guig@yerawathamecom...
>>> <Snip>
>>>
>>>> I've yet to meet a septic who is capable of knowing or understanding a 
>>>> fact.
>>>
>>> Here's a fact for you.
>>> Your ass belongs to Russia.
>>
>>
>> Well they *did* liberate Europe at a cost of 20 million men after all.
>> But then I wouldn't expect you to understand a basic fact like that.
>
> For that comment you should receive a high position in the new Russian 
> Pan-Europe co-prosperity sphere.

Doesn't stop it being the truth as usual.
In fact to be more accurate it was 19 million I believe.
Whilst I understand one doesn't win wars by losing men it does, however, 
illusate their degree of commitment to destroying fascism.

I'm not trying to belittle the role played by US forces (or any of the 
dozens of other countries equally involved) but I do wish the US wouldn't 
belittle the huge part played by Russian forces (and the dozens of other 
countries equally involved) in liberating Europe from Hitler.
A sizable percentage (I forget the exact figure now) of USains actually 
believe Russia was on the side of the fascists!
Nice to be appreciated, I hear them say.

> BTW, a German friend of mine just returned from a visit to the old 
> country.
> He reports that the Germans are very worried at the current turn of 
> events.
> And the Poles and Ukrainians are terrified.

I'm not surprised. BushCo is using them as the US front line - same as 
Reagan did to the UK in the 80's with the cruise missile debacle.
You don't seriously believe that he is siting his missiles there for the 
'good of the Polish people' do you? Perleese.
And, surprise surprise, the western media is falling over itself in it's 
attempts to totally distort the situation in Ossetia. Ossetia has been 
independant for 12 years. It has had it's own parliament, foreign ministry 
and political systems for the same length of time.
The west doesn't wouldn't give a monkey's fart about 'our staunch ally 
Gorgia' if it wasn't for the fact that western companies have spent a mint 
running oil and gas pipelines through the place.
Grow up.

> Only the dumbass Brits are still muddling along as though nothing is 
> happening.
> While Putin, the ex KGB man, sees how far he can go without getting Moscow 
> vaporized.

And BushCo is not only doing exactly the same, but he inititated the current 
phase of instability.
How come you guys never see the whole picture?

> And you yourself said, oh one of very short memory, a few posts back, the 
> world is about to end and no one seems to give a rat's ass.

So in what way does my pointing out the under-valued role of the tens of 
millions of Russian soldiers in WII change this?

> I can here the shorted sighted Yurps now.
> "Well, we may all be going down the tube but it will be the end of 
> America!!!"

And it never occurs to you(s) to research the reasons why does it?
I'll give you a clue - we don't 'hate your freedoms' as now we have more 
than you anyway, and we aren't 'jealous of your toys' as we already have a 
higher standard of living than you.
So why does most of the world see you as the biggest threat to peace to 
Earth do you think?
Wait!! It couldn't possibly be because you *are* the biggest threat to peace 
on Earth could it?

On 2008-09-09 15:21:37 +0100, "conwaycaine"  said:

> 
> "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
> news:IsadnYaNEeILwlvVnZ2dnUVZ8rKdnZ2d@westnet.com.au...
>> 
>> "conwaycaine"  wrote in message
>> news:VTRwk.26073$kh2.12297@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>>> 
>>> "guig"  wrote in message
>>> news:2008090623125511272-guig@yerawathamecom...
>>> <Snip>
>>> 
>>>> I've yet to meet a septic who is capable of knowing or understanding a
>>>> fact.
>>> 
>>> Here's a fact for you.
>>> Your ass belongs to Russia.
>> 
>> 
>> Well they *did* liberate Europe at a cost of 20 million men after all.
>> But then I wouldn't expect you to understand a basic fact like that.
> 
> For that comment you should receive a high position in the new Russian
> Pan-Europe co-prosperity sphere.
> 
> BTW, a German friend of mine just returned from a visit to the old country.
> He reports that the Germans are very worried at the current turn of events.
> And the Poles and Ukrainians are terrified.
> 
> Only the dumbass Brits are still muddling along as though nothing is
> happening.

And the septics have done what exactly? The lame duck President sned 
Cheney across with an offer to take Putin duck hunting in the hope the 
daft auld bastard might accidentally shoot like he did his mate.

> While Putin, the ex KGB man, sees how far he can go without getting Moscow
> vaporized.
> 
> And you yourself said, oh one of very short memory, a few posts back, the
> world is about to end and no one seems to give a rat's ass.
> 
> I can here the shorted sighted Yurps now.
> "Well, we may all be going down the tube but it will be the end of
> America!!!"

The end of America started about a decade ago and continues apace.

"La N"  wrote in message 
news:xgvxk.1796$yS5.731@edtnps83...
>
> "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message 
> news:IsadnYaNEeILwlvVnZ2dnUVZ8rKdnZ2d@westnet.com.au...
>>
>> "conwaycaine"  wrote in message 
>> news:VTRwk.26073$kh2.12297@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>>>
>>> "guig"  wrote in message 
>>> news:2008090623125511272-guig@yerawathamecom...
>>> <Snip>
>>>
>>>> I've yet to meet a septic who is capable of knowing or understanding a 
>>>> fact.
>>>
>>> Here's a fact for you.
>>> Your ass belongs to Russia.
>>
>>
>> Well they *did* liberate Europe at a cost of 20 million men after all.
>> But then I wouldn't expect you to understand a basic fact like that.
>>
>>
> Adam?  What's the difference between a "basic fact" and a "home truth"?

It's a matter of orientation, Nilita.
A "basic fact" is a left handed distortion and a "home truth" a right handed 
distortion.
(Time to change your shorts again, Adam)

"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message 
news:u72dnVk0C4yh1VrVnZ2dnUVZ8tbinZ2d@westnet.com.au...
> "conwaycaine"  wrote in message
<Snip>

>> For that comment you should receive a high position in the new Russian 
>> Pan-Europe co-prosperity sphere.
>
> Doesn't stop it being the truth as usual.
> In fact to be more accurate it was 19 million I believe.
> Whilst I understand one doesn't win wars by losing men it does, however, 
> illusate their degree of commitment to destroying fascism.

I think their aim was more defending the Rodina rather than some altrustic 
motive.
As to the men they lost, what choice did they have, surrender to the 
somewhat less than tender mercies of the nazies?

> I'm not trying to belittle the role played by US forces (or any of the 
> dozens of other countries equally involved) but I do wish the US wouldn't 
> belittle the huge part played by Russian forces (and the dozens of other 
> countries equally involved) in liberating Europe from Hitler.
> A sizable percentage (I forget the exact figure now) of USains actually 
> believe Russia was on the side of the fascists!
> Nice to be appreciated, I hear them say.

So, have you been to Putin's dacha then?
And I'm not about to belittle the huge part played by Russian forces played 
in defeating the nazis.
Consider Stalingrad.......

"guig"  wrote in message 
news:2008091007154427544-guig@yerawathamecom...
> On 2008-09-09 15:21:37 +0100, "conwaycaine"  
> said:
>> "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
>> news:IsadnYaNEeILwlvVnZ2dnUVZ8rKdnZ2d@westnet.com.au...
<Snip>

>> Only the dumbass Brits are still muddling along as though nothing is
>> happening.
>
> And the septics have done what exactly? The lame duck President sned 
> Cheney across with an offer to take Putin duck hunting in the hope the 
> daft auld bastard might accidentally shoot like he did his mate.

There is little to be done at this point.
Russia has the oil and you guys by the balls.
You are out of the action.
That leaves the evil Americans (wearing black hats) against the ever saintly 
Russians (wearing the white hats).
A quick exchange of nukes and the suvivors can get back to a hunter/gatherer 
existance.

>> While Putin, the ex KGB man, sees how far he can go without getting 
>> Moscow
>> vaporized.
>> And you yourself said, oh one of very short memory, a few posts back, the
>> world is about to end and no one seems to give a rat's ass.
>> I can here the shorted sighted Yurps now.
>> "Well, we may all be going down the tube but it will be the end of
>> America!!!"

> The end of America started about a decade ago and continues apace.

No problem. Russia stands ready to become the new Free World leader and 
bastion of democratic rights for all.
Enjoy.

"conwaycaine"  wrote in message 
news:76Qxk.26306$rD2.10524@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>
> "La N"  wrote in message 
> news:xgvxk.1796$yS5.731@edtnps83...
>>
>> "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message 
>> news:IsadnYaNEeILwlvVnZ2dnUVZ8rKdnZ2d@westnet.com.au...
>>>
>>> "conwaycaine"  wrote in message 
>>> news:VTRwk.26073$kh2.12297@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>>>>
>>>> "guig"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:2008090623125511272-guig@yerawathamecom...
>>>> <Snip>
>>>>
>>>>> I've yet to meet a septic who is capable of knowing or understanding a 
>>>>> fact.
>>>>
>>>> Here's a fact for you.
>>>> Your ass belongs to Russia.
>>>
>>>
>>> Well they *did* liberate Europe at a cost of 20 million men after all.
>>> But then I wouldn't expect you to understand a basic fact like that.
>>>
>>>
>> Adam?  What's the difference between a "basic fact" and a "home truth"?
>
> It's a matter of orientation, Nilita.
> A "basic fact" is a left handed distortion and a "home truth" a right 
> handed distortion.
> (Time to change your shorts again, Adam)

Don't you guys ever get discouraged by your 'ten trolls to one response 
ratio'?

"conwaycaine"  wrote in message 
news:76Qxk.26306$rD2.10524@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>
> "La N"  wrote in message 
> news:xgvxk.1796$yS5.731@edtnps83...
>>
>> "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message 
>> news:IsadnYaNEeILwlvVnZ2dnUVZ8rKdnZ2d@westnet.com.au...
>>>
>>> "conwaycaine"  wrote in message 
>>> news:VTRwk.26073$kh2.12297@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>>>>
>>>> "guig"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:2008090623125511272-guig@yerawathamecom...
>>>> <Snip>
>>>>
>>>>> I've yet to meet a septic who is capable of knowing or understanding a 
>>>>> fact.
>>>>
>>>> Here's a fact for you.
>>>> Your ass belongs to Russia.
>>>
>>>
>>> Well they *did* liberate Europe at a cost of 20 million men after all.
>>> But then I wouldn't expect you to understand a basic fact like that.
>>>
>>>
>> Adam?  What's the difference between a "basic fact" and a "home truth"?
>
> It's a matter of orientation, Nilita.
> A "basic fact" is a left handed distortion and a "home truth" a right 
> handed distortion.

You are implying that Adam is ambidextrous?

- nilita

"conwaycaine"  wrote in message 
news:TmQxk.26320$rD2.22921@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message 
> news:u72dnVk0C4yh1VrVnZ2dnUVZ8tbinZ2d@westnet.com.au...
>> "conwaycaine"  wrote in message
> <Snip>
>
>>> For that comment you should receive a high position in the new Russian 
>>> Pan-Europe co-prosperity sphere.
>>
>> Doesn't stop it being the truth as usual.
>> In fact to be more accurate it was 19 million I believe.
>> Whilst I understand one doesn't win wars by losing men it does, however, 
>> illusate their degree of commitment to destroying fascism.
>
> I think their aim was more defending the Rodina rather than some altrustic 
> motive.

Exactly the same applies to the USA. They didn't enter until Germany 
declared war on them and even then their main motive (according to 
Roosevelt) was to pre-empt any possibility of Germany gaining control of the 
Atlantic (with Britain's fleet added to their own). After all Britain (again 
according to Roosevelt) had helped protect your eastern seaboard for 200 
years. Even continuing to do so when ships were being sunk by u-boats just 
off your coast because they were silhouetted against the party lights of 
your cities when they refused to 'black out'.
Thanks for that guys.

> As to the men they lost, what choice did they have, surrender to the 
> somewhat less than tender mercies of the nazies?
>
>> I'm not trying to belittle the role played by US forces (or any of the 
>> dozens of other countries equally involved) but I do wish the US wouldn't 
>> belittle the huge part played by Russian forces (and the dozens of other 
>> countries equally involved) in liberating Europe from Hitler.
>> A sizable percentage (I forget the exact figure now) of USains actually 
>> believe Russia was on the side of the fascists!
>> Nice to be appreciated, I hear them say.
>
> So, have you been to Putin's dacha then?
> And I'm not about to belittle the huge part played by Russian forces 
> played in defeating the nazis.
> Consider Stalingrad.......

Probably the most important battle in the whole war. I'm sure your children 
get as thorough an education as to how their crazy courage turned the course 
of history as they do about the rest of the war.
And I didn't say 'you' personally - I said 'the US'. Witness the hundreds of 
Yank ignoramuses who have polluted this ng over the years with their vast 
over-estimates of the importance of the US role and their ridiculous and 
endlessly repeated mantra 'The British would be speaking German if we hadn't 
saved you'.  Laughable to anyone who has spent even a few hours studying the 
facts.
Granted the war would have lasted another 2 or 3 years but Germany was 
screwed from 1941 onwards regardless of whether the US had joined in or not 
and, after the 'Battle of Britain', any attempt by Hitler at a seaborn 
invasion would have been suicide without air superiority.
We might well have been speaking Russian as I doubt they would have stopped 
at Berlin, but German? No chance.

Seems the world is in a bit of a bind now though.
Communism doesn't work and now we know that neither does capitalism - not 
when it's based on the illusion of 'equity as secuity for more loans', the 
printing of trillions more paper dollars, and screw the biosphere anyway.
Where to now do you think?

"conwaycaine"  wrote in message 
news:XqQxk.26323$rD2.5755@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>
> "guig"  wrote in message 
> news:2008091007154427544-guig@yerawathamecom...
>> On 2008-09-09 15:21:37 +0100, "conwaycaine"  
>> said:
>>> "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message
>>> news:IsadnYaNEeILwlvVnZ2dnUVZ8rKdnZ2d@westnet.com.au...
> <Snip>
>
>>> Only the dumbass Brits are still muddling along as though nothing is
>>> happening.
>>
>> And the septics have done what exactly? The lame duck President sned 
>> Cheney across with an offer to take Putin duck hunting in the hope the 
>> daft auld bastard might accidentally shoot like he did his mate.
>
> There is little to be done at this point.
> Russia has the oil and you guys by the balls.

The UK is more or less self-sufficient in oil.
Also we have the vast reserves in the Falklands region. We didn't fight that 
'war' for nothing you know.
Or did you really think that The Mad Cow gave a **** about 2,000 
sheep-shaggers?

> You are out of the action.
> That leaves the evil Americans (wearing black hats) against the ever 
> saintly Russians (wearing the white hats).
> A quick exchange of nukes and the suvivors can get back to a 
> hunter/gatherer existance.
>
>>> While Putin, the ex KGB man, sees how far he can go without getting 
>>> Moscow
>>> vaporized.
>>> And you yourself said, oh one of very short memory, a few posts back, 
>>> the
>>> world is about to end and no one seems to give a rat's ass.
>>> I can here the shorted sighted Yurps now.
>>> "Well, we may all be going down the tube but it will be the end of
>>> America!!!"
>
>> The end of America started about a decade ago and continues apace.
>
> No problem. Russia stands ready to become the new Free World leader and 
> bastion of democratic rights for all.
> Enjoy.

I've got news for you - the US never *was* 'the Free World leader' and 
no-one outside of Hicksville ever thought so.
Your corporate masters and their government lackies just tell you (over and 
over and over again) that they are and you are too collectively gullible and 
arrogant to realise you are being conned royally.
Russia certainly wouldn't be any better in terms of hegemony, oppression and 
trade pressures on smaller countries etc., but at least they don't utterly 
patronise the rest of the world by pretending they are 'helping' the people 
who's countries they trash and rob.

"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <ador@ble> wrote in message 
news:KKydndavBq6WR1rVnZ2dnUVZ8uKdnZ2d@westnet.com.au...
> "conwaycaine"  wrote in message
>> "La N"  wrote in message
<Snip>

>>> Adam?  What's the difference between a "basic fact" and a "home truth"?
>>
>> It's a matter of orientation, Nilita.
>> A "basic fact" is a left handed distortion and a "home truth" a right 
>> handed distortion.
>> (Time to change your shorts again, Adam)
>
> Don't you guys ever get discouraged by your 'ten trolls to one response 
> ratio'?

And here Nilita and I thought you would be pleased by all the attention.