On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 14:12:53 +0100, "Aidy"  wrote:

>> If the purity was better defined and regulated, there'd be a lot fewer 
>> less deaths.
>
>So the purer the heroin the harder it is to OD from?

Not quite.

The more *consistent* the strength of the drug, the less likely it is
for the user to suffer an accidental overdose.

You might compare it with a case where someone "micky finns" your
drink at a pub.  Being unaware that the drink conatins far more
alcohol than you are used to, you can get very drunk without intending
to get that way.  You might even die from the effects of a far greater
amount of alcohol than you intended to consume.

With intravenous drugs the effect is even worse, because there are no
tell-tale signs of an overdose untill the drug has been injected and
it is too late.

A person who is used to injecting 2% heroin who buys a product that
(unknown to them) is 10% pure is highly likely to suffer an overdose.

-- 
Cynic

"Cynic"  wrote in message 
news:1j2s455vp2sra0tv9fq8indd173v3tu2io@4ax.com...

> You might compare it with a case where someone "micky finns" your
> drink at a pub.  Being unaware that the drink conatins far more
> alcohol than you are used to, you can get very drunk without intending
> to get that way.  You might even die from the effects of a far greater
> amount of alcohol than you intended to consume.

It's far less likely as your body has control over how it gets into your 
system and can ultimayely make you throw up, removing most of the alcohol. 
Not quite so when injecting heroin.

> A person who is used to injecting 2% heroin who buys a product that
> (unknown to them) is 10% pure is highly likely to suffer an overdose.

I thought one of your arguments was that street heroin is cut, so you want 
legal heroin to be 100% pure heroin?  And when these junkies who are used to 
2% heroin try your 100% heroin, what happens then?

Not that it'll ever happen of course...legalise 100% heroin and people will 
still but the 2% stuff for the reduced rate from some street dealer.  Cos 
that's how people are.

On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 15:53:11 +0100, "Aidy"  wrote:

>> A person who is used to injecting 2% heroin who buys a product that
>> (unknown to them) is 10% pure is highly likely to suffer an overdose.

>I thought one of your arguments was that street heroin is cut, so you want 
>legal heroin to be 100% pure heroin?

You thought wrong.

> And when these junkies who are used to 
>2% heroin try your 100% heroin, what happens then?

It doesn't matter how pure the heroin is, so long as it is
*consistent,* and preferably of known strength.  A heroin user has no
more wish to die from taking his chosen drug than a caffien user or
alcohol user.

Any legally obtainable heroin would be packaged with its strength and
recommended dose clearly stated.

-- 
Cynic

In article  "Aidy"  writes:
>"Cynic"  wrote in message 
>news:1j2s455vp2sra0tv9fq8indd173v3tu2io@4ax.com...
>
>> You might compare it with a case where someone "micky finns" your
>> drink at a pub.  Being unaware that the drink conatins far more
>> alcohol than you are used to, you can get very drunk without intending
>> to get that way.  You might even die from the effects of a far greater
>> amount of alcohol than you intended to consume.

>It's far less likely as your body has control over how it gets into your 
>system and can ultimayely make you throw up, removing most of the alcohol. 
>Not quite so when injecting heroin.

And with legal opioids, it is less likely that people would be injecting
heroin as well.

>> A person who is used to injecting 2% heroin who buys a product that
>> (unknown to them) is 10% pure is highly likely to suffer an overdose.

>I thought one of your arguments was that street heroin is cut, so you want 
>legal heroin to be 100% pure heroin?  And when these junkies who are used to 
>2% heroin try your 100% heroin, what happens then?

>Not that it'll ever happen of course...legalise 100% heroin and people will 
>still but the 2% stuff for the reduced rate from some street dealer.  Cos 
>that's how people are. 

Really?  They'll buy 2% off the street when they can legally buy 100% from
a chemist and cut it to 2% themselves?

You really think people in general are completely stupid, don't you?

-Pete Zakel
 (phz@seeheader.nospam)

"Only God can make random selections."

On 2009-07-03, Pete nospam Zakel  wrote:
> In article  "Aidy"  writes:

> You really think people in general are completely stupid, don't you?

He's a prohibitionist. What do you expect?

-- 
                    http://hyperangry.blogspot.com/
       [email me, if you must, at huge {at} huge (dot) org <dot> uk]

"Pete nospam Zakel"  wrote in message 
news:4a4e691b$1@news.cadence.com...

> Really?  They'll buy 2% off the street when they can legally buy 100% from
> a chemist and cut it to 2% themselves?

If it was cheap enough, yes.

"Cynic"  wrote in message 
news:g08s45hu28ji6so9bo0aa91sodm0jr0k93@4ax.com...

> It doesn't matter how pure the heroin is, so long as it is
> *consistent,* and preferably of known strength.  A heroin user has no
> more wish to die from taking his chosen drug than a caffien user or
> alcohol user.
>
> Any legally obtainable heroin would be packaged with its strength and
> recommended dose clearly stated.

And what would "legal heroin" be cut with to reduce its strength?

On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 09:22:21 +0100, "Aidy"  wrote:

>> It doesn't matter how pure the heroin is, so long as it is
>> *consistent,* and preferably of known strength.  A heroin user has no
>> more wish to die from taking his chosen drug than a caffien user or
>> alcohol user.
>>
>> Any legally obtainable heroin would be packaged with its strength and
>> recommended dose clearly stated.
>
>And what would "legal heroin" be cut with to reduce its strength?

Probably water if injectable, otherwise glucose.

-- 
Cynic

"Cynic"  wrote in message 
news:8kn355tpmarcsji7bb6s4ocv3fnjvjs408@4ax.com...

> Probably water if injectable, otherwise glucose.

So why are the ingredients that "illegal" heroin are cut with so dangerous? 
Isn't the argument that heroin (although very easy to overdose on and 
controlled as it is quite a dangerous substance) is only dangerous because 
it has been cut with harmful things?  Why isn't street heroin just cut the 
way "legal" heroin would be?

"Aidy"  wrote in message 
news:LfOdnelfY51Fe8zXnZ2dnUVZ8vednZ2d@bt.com...
> "Cynic"  wrote in message 
> news:8kn355tpmarcsji7bb6s4ocv3fnjvjs408@4ax.com...
>
>> Probably water if injectable, otherwise glucose.
>
> So why are the ingredients that "illegal" heroin are cut with so 
> dangerous? Isn't the argument that heroin (although very easy to overdose 
> on and controlled as it is quite a dangerous substance) is only dangerous 
> because it has been cut with harmful things?  Why isn't street heroin just 
> cut the way "legal" heroin would be?

Because on the street it is supplied as a solid and so must be cut with 
another solid to dilute the strength. Medicinal opiates are generally 
supplied as a liquid and so are far more easily 'cut' by diluting with a 
saline solution.
It is possible to supply the street drug as a solution but no practical as 
thousands of small bottles or vials would be required to be purchased, 
stored and transported instead of popping out to Tesco for some own brand 
foil for wraps.

The other danger is the inconsistency of supply. Your dealer may be 6 steps 
away from the main importer of the pure heroin and then gets busted. A 
dealer higher up the chain may plug the cap for a while passing on heroin 
only 4 steps from pure and much more potent and liable to induce and 
overdose.

Andy

Aidy wrote:
> "Cynic"  wrote in message 
> news:8kn355tpmarcsji7bb6s4ocv3fnjvjs408@4ax.com...
> 
>> Probably water if injectable, otherwise glucose.
> 
> So why are the ingredients that "illegal" heroin are cut with so dangerous? 
> Isn't the argument that heroin (although very easy to overdose on and 
> controlled as it is quite a dangerous substance) is only dangerous because 
> it has been cut with harmful things?  Why isn't street heroin just cut the 
> way "legal" heroin would be? 
> 
> 
Because 'ingredients' are expensive. A squat however might have a 
cupboard full of 'free' shite like boot polish, rat poison, or whatever 
that can be mixed together to pad out the original.

Blah wrote:
> Aidy wrote:
>> "Cynic"  wrote in message 
>> news:8kn355tpmarcsji7bb6s4ocv3fnjvjs408@4ax.com...
>>
>>> Probably water if injectable, otherwise glucose.
>>
>> So why are the ingredients that "illegal" heroin are cut with so 
>> dangerous? Isn't the argument that heroin (although very easy to 
>> overdose on and controlled as it is quite a dangerous substance) is 
>> only dangerous because it has been cut with harmful things?  Why isn't 
>> street heroin just cut the way "legal" heroin would be?
>>
> Because 'ingredients' are expensive. A squat however might have a 
> cupboard full of 'free' shite like boot polish, rat poison, or whatever 
> that can be mixed together to pad out the original.

	In any event the heroin is likely to be cut with chalk dust
or any white powder.  The method of mixing is likely not to be sterile
even if the heroin started out that way, so you could if an IV user
pickup whatever was on the utensils or hands of the cutters.  Good
way to get blood infections.
	I have seen people with tracks on their arms like rattle snakes from 
infections.

	When Alcohol Prohibition was the law in the USA alcohol was
cut with methyl or isopropyl alcohols, spiked with ether and other
good substances so it is the illegality that causes these disgusting
dilutions with poisons of drugs that are less dangerous.

	later
	bliss

"Aidy"  wrote in message 
news:t-KdnRraieWNKczXnZ2dnUVZ8tqdnZ2d@bt.com...
> "Pete nospam Zakel"  wrote in message 
> news:4a4e691b$1@news.cadence.com...
>
>> Really?  They'll buy 2% off the street when they can legally buy 100% 
>> from
>> a chemist and cut it to 2% themselves?
>
> If it was cheap enough, yes.
>
>
A tiny minority of an already tiny minority might, that's hardly going to 
encourage the gangsta culture that prohibition is fuelling. Most who use it 
would just be happy to get a safe product and be free from vindictive 
persecution by self righteous monkeys.

"Blah"  wrote in message 
news:7bfg5pF22gdjhU1@mid.individual.net...
> Aidy wrote:
>> "Cynic"  wrote in message 
>> news:8kn355tpmarcsji7bb6s4ocv3fnjvjs408@4ax.com...
>>
>>> Probably water if injectable, otherwise glucose.
>>
>> So why are the ingredients that "illegal" heroin are cut with so 
>> dangerous? Isn't the argument that heroin (although very easy to overdose 
>> on and controlled as it is quite a dangerous substance) is only dangerous 
>> because it has been cut with harmful things?  Why isn't street heroin 
>> just cut the way "legal" heroin would be?
> Because 'ingredients' are expensive. A squat however might have a cupboard 
> full of 'free' shite like boot polish, rat poison, or whatever that can be 
> mixed together to pad out the original.
>
Talcum powder, powdered milk that kind of stuff. Certainly not something 
users ought to be injecting (or would be without idiotic prohibition).

"JohnR"  wrote in message 
news:4a536d8a$0$1407$346c885@unlimited.newshosting.com...

> Most who use it would just be happy to get a safe product and be free from 
> vindictive persecution by self righteous monkeys.

Most who use it would sell their own grandmothers to get it, or sell their 
bodies on the street for it.  I'm sure getting a safe product free from 
persecution is really high on their list of priorities.

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/1630,features,the-ipswich-prostitutes-risked-their-lives-for-heroin

Sorry....there I go again....assuming heroin addicts are all low-life scum 
bags and not the well-adjusted, normal tax-paying professionals they 
actually are.   Despite 80% of prisoners being heroin users before going 
inside.  Of course.  And 70% of prostitutes being heroin addicts.  Of 
course.

I mean this young girl, a hooker like her mum and sister when her dad is in 
jail is nothing at all like your typical heroin user;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/4978124.stm

If only heroin was legal none of these problems would exist, cos heroin is 
less addictive than cigarettes.  If only our 15 year old girls could get 
hooked on heroin at the rate of £5 a hit like they do currently fags.

Oh look.....MI5 agents are masturbating outside my window....

"Aidy"  wrote in message 
news:Y8ednfQYHuRSFM7XnZ2dnUVZ8u2dnZ2d@bt.com...
> "JohnR"  wrote in message 
> news:4a536d8a$0$1407$346c885@unlimited.newshosting.com...
>
>> Most who use it would just be happy to get a safe product and be free 
>> from vindictive persecution by self righteous monkeys.
>
> Most who use it would sell their own grandmothers to get it, or sell their 
> bodies on the street for it.  I'm sure getting a safe product free from 
> persecution is really high on their list of priorities.
>
> http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/1630,features,the-ipswich-prostitutes-risked-their-lives-for-heroin
>
> Sorry....there I go again....assuming heroin addicts are all low-life scum 
> bags and not the well-adjusted, normal tax-paying professionals they 
> actually are.   Despite 80% of prisoners being heroin users before going 
> inside.  Of course.  And 70% of prostitutes being heroin addicts.  Of 
> course.
>
> I mean this young girl, a hooker like her mum and sister when her dad is 
> in jail is nothing at all like your typical heroin user;
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/4978124.stm
>
> If only heroin was legal none of these problems would exist, cos heroin is 
> less addictive than cigarettes.  If only our 15 year old girls could get 
> hooked on heroin at the rate of £5 a hit like they do currently fags.
>
> Oh look.....MI5 agents are masturbating outside my window....
>
Any problems that would otherwise exist are simply made worse by prohibition 
and the cretins who support it.

"JohnR"  wrote in message 
news:4a5452e7$0$8383$136caf5@unlimited.newshosting.com...

> Any problems that would otherwise exist are simply made worse by 
> prohibition and the cretins who support it.

That's your opinion, nothing more, with no basis in fact.  Isn't drug abuse 
tolerated in some places like Amsterdam?  Isn't prostitution rife in those 
places also?  Ignore that though....I'm sure you're right....after all, look 
at America in the 20s as that has more relevance than anything.

On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 10:07:05 +0100, "Aidy"  wrote:

>"JohnR"  wrote in message 
>news:4a5452e7$0$8383$136caf5@unlimited.newshosting.com...
>
>> Any problems that would otherwise exist are simply made worse by 
>> prohibition and the cretins who support it.

>That's your opinion, nothing more, with no basis in fact.  Isn't drug abuse 
>tolerated in some places like Amsterdam?  Isn't prostitution rife in those 
>places also?  Ignore that though....I'm sure you're right....after all, look 
>at America in the 20s as that has more relevance than anything.

Legal protitution in Amsterdam is part of the same spectrum of
tolerance  which allows cannabis coffee shops and is not a function of
liberal Dutch drug policies.

And there's no need to look at 1920's USA to see what prohibition and
abolishing it does, just look at present day Portugal where.....but
what's the point of explaining. You are Aidy and talking sense with
you is a waste of time. It wouldn't penetrate if it was tied to a nail
and hammered into your skull. 

Which sounds an attractive proposition, if only a nail hard enough
could be found.

Svenne

"Svenne"  wrote in message 
news:385955hkb9fptarm13o7bi04amfmul3ek6@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 10:07:05 +0100, "Aidy"  wrote:
>
>>"JohnR"  wrote in message
>>news:4a5452e7$0$8383$136caf5@unlimited.newshosting.com...
>>
>>> Any problems that would otherwise exist are simply made worse by
>>> prohibition and the cretins who support it.
>
>>That's your opinion, nothing more, with no basis in fact.  Isn't drug 
>>abuse
>>tolerated in some places like Amsterdam?  Isn't prostitution rife in those
>>places also?  Ignore that though....I'm sure you're right....after all, 
>>look
>>at America in the 20s as that has more relevance than anything.
>
> Legal protitution in Amsterdam is part of the same spectrum of
> tolerance  which allows cannabis coffee shops and is not a function of
> liberal Dutch drug policies.
>
> And there's no need to look at 1920's USA to see what prohibition and
> abolishing it does, just look at present day Portugal where.....but
> what's the point of explaining. You are Aidy and talking sense with
> you is a waste of time. It wouldn't penetrate if it was tied to a nail
> and hammered into your skull.
>
> Which sounds an attractive proposition, if only a nail hard enough
> could be found.
>
He's a damned good prohibitionist, as thick as two short planks, pig 
ignorant and proud of himself.

> "Svenne"  wrote in message

>> Legal protitution in Amsterdam is part of the same spectrum of
>> tolerance  which allows cannabis coffee shops and is not a function of
>> liberal Dutch drug policies.

Oh....so when anecdotal evidence is for your argument it is reasoned and 
absolute, but when it is against your argument is is just a coincidence. 
Ok.

> He's a damned good prohibitionist, as thick as two short planks, pig 
> ignorant and proud of himself.

Svenne is in my kill file so I only see his rubbish when people like you 
reply to him.  In future if you want to launch ad hominem attacks against me 
could you kindly do so in direct response to my own posts?  Or you could 
just grow up...thanks either way though.