My comment to this article:

When one considers the 114,000 a year killed by tobacco, the 5,000 a year
who die from alcohol overdose and the 120,000 mental health cases a year
also caused by alcohol, LSD and ecstasy seem relatively very safe drugs.

Lorna Spinks died because the tablets she took were far stronger than she
was used to, it would be like mistaking whisky for beer and drinking five
pints of it. This wouldn't have occurred if E was legal, just as people
aren't offered pints of whisky to drink.

Leah Betts died of Water intoxication caused by drinking too much water,
not the direct effects of ecstasy.

The alleged effects of LSD all sound apocryphal, I would be interested to
learn their origin. The military tested LSD on soldiers in the 1960's
(there's a funny video on YouTube of it) without them coming to any harm.



BRITAIN’S new drug Czar wants to DOWNGRADE mind-bending ecstasy and LSD,
it was revealed last night.

Professor David Nutt, who was appointed yesterday, says they should no
longer be class A because it does not deter people from taking them.

The professor is the new chairman of the Government’s Advisory Council
on the Misuse of Drugs.

In 2006 he told the council’s science and technology committee: “I
think the evidence base for classification producing deterrence is not
strong and we see that with a number of drugs.

“I think LSD and ecstasy probably shouldn’t be class A.”

The Home Office last night said classification of ecstasy may now
re-examined.

A spokesman said: “The ACMD will consider the evidence for the
classification of ecstasy with an open mind based upon its social misuse
and harms relative to other drugs in the classification system.”

Prof Nutt, formerly the advisory council’s chief scientist, recently
called the Government’s decision to upgrade cannabis to class B from
class C “naive”.

He said reclassification would not put off users.

Prof Nutt took over from Sir Michael Rawlins, who said his successor would
provide “the best possible advice to government.”

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith praised Sir Michael last night adding: “I
look forward to working with his successor so that the advisory
council’s expert advice can continue to inform our drive to reduce the
harm caused by illegal substances.”

Lorna Spinks, 19, died in 2001 after taking two ecstasy tablets before
visiting a nightclub in Cambridge.

And Leah Betts died after taking the drug in 1995 at an 18th birthday
party in Essex.

LSD has been blamed for causing insanity and deaths, including a young
mother beheading her baby in the US.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1184845.ece

-- 
Dr John Watson
Baker Street

On Tue, 20 May 2008 09:06:08 +0100, Dr John Watson
 wrote:


>LSD has been blamed for causing insanity and deaths, including a young
>mother beheading her baby in the US.

>http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1184845.ece

That's a good one, enough to scare the shit out of any God fearing
parent. Did the mother eat the head as well?

Svenne

"Dr John Watson"  wrote in message
news:69ff3gF31m2f2U1@mid.individual.net...

>
> Professor David Nutt, who was appointed yesterday, says they should no
> longer be class A because it does not deter people from taking them.

Doesn't that argument apply equally to any class A drug?

> just as people aren't offered pints of whisky to drink.

I recall a new item where that did happen and the man did die.  Thing is, 
most people couldn't physically drink a pint of whiskey as the body reacts 
to it.  The same can't be said with popping pills.

> Leah Betts died of Water intoxication caused by drinking too much water,
> not the direct effects of ecstasy.

That's like saying "I didn't kill that person...it was the bullet that left 
my gun that killed them".  "I didn't kill that person by throwing them off 
the roof....it was the pavement that killed them."

On Tue, 20 May 2008 12:43:57 +0100, "Aidy" 
wrote:

>> just as people aren't offered pints of whisky to drink.
>
>I recall a new item where that did happen and the man did die.  Thing is, 
>most people couldn't physically drink a pint of whiskey as the body reacts 
>to it.  The same can't be said with popping pills.

>> Leah Betts died of Water intoxication caused by drinking too much water,
>> not the direct effects of ecstasy.

>That's like saying "I didn't kill that person...it was the bullet that left 
>my gun that killed them".  "I didn't kill that person by throwing them off 
>the roof....it was the pavement that killed them."

Was the person who forced Leah Betts to drink all that water charged
with murder?

Svenne

> Was the person who forced Leah Betts to drink all that water charged
> with murder?

No, they were dead.

On Tue, 20 May 2008 14:08:00 +0100, "Aidy" 
wrote:

>> Was the person who forced Leah Betts to drink all that water charged
>> with murder?

>No, they were dead.

Was it water again?

Svenne

>>No, they were dead.
>
> Was it water again?

I can't tell if you are deliberately not understanding or if you are just 
stupid.

A lot of rubbish in this post.

A false analogy - even I couldn't drink a pint of whisky without throwing up 
and I have had several years practice.  I could very easily overdose on most 
class A & B drugs (although interestingly not LSD).

Of course there is harm from using LSD and ecstasy, including suicides, 
mental disturbance, heatstroke and drinking too much water.  Indeed whilst 
LSD is not addictive*, it is probably the most dangerous recreational drug 
to use.


* psychological dependence can occur.


"Dr John Watson"  wrote in message 
news:69ff3gF31m2f2U1@mid.individual.net...
> My comment to this article:
>
> When one considers the 114,000 a year killed by tobacco, the 5,000 a year
> who die from alcohol overdose and the 120,000 mental health cases a year
> also caused by alcohol, LSD and ecstasy seem relatively very safe drugs.
>
> Lorna Spinks died because the tablets she took were far stronger than she
> was used to, it would be like mistaking whisky for beer and drinking five
> pints of it. This wouldn't have occurred if E was legal, just as people
> aren't offered pints of whisky to drink.
>
> Leah Betts died of Water intoxication caused by drinking too much water,
> not the direct effects of ecstasy.
>
> The alleged effects of LSD all sound apocryphal, I would be interested to
> learn their origin. The military tested LSD on soldiers in the 1960's
> (there's a funny video on YouTube of it) without them coming to any harm.
>
>
>
> BRITAIN’S new drug Czar wants to DOWNGRADE mind-bending ecstasy and LSD,
> it was revealed last night.
>
> Professor David Nutt, who was appointed yesterday, says they should no
> longer be class A because it does not deter people from taking them.
>
> The professor is the new chairman of the Government’s Advisory Council
> on the Misuse of Drugs.
>
> In 2006 he told the council’s science and technology committee: “I
> think the evidence base for classification producing deterrence is not
> strong and we see that with a number of drugs.
>
> “I think LSD and ecstasy probably shouldn’t be class A.”
>
> The Home Office last night said classification of ecstasy may now
> re-examined.
>
> A spokesman said: “The ACMD will consider the evidence for the
> classification of ecstasy with an open mind based upon its social misuse
> and harms relative to other drugs in the classification system.”
>
> Prof Nutt, formerly the advisory council’s chief scientist, recently
> called the Government’s decision to upgrade cannabis to class B from
> class C “naive”.
>
> He said reclassification would not put off users.
>
> Prof Nutt took over from Sir Michael Rawlins, who said his successor would
> provide “the best possible advice to government.”
>
> Home Secretary Jacqui Smith praised Sir Michael last night adding: “I
> look forward to working with his successor so that the advisory
> council’s expert advice can continue to inform our drive to reduce the
> harm caused by illegal substances.”
>
> Lorna Spinks, 19, died in 2001 after taking two ecstasy tablets before
> visiting a nightclub in Cambridge.
>
> And Leah Betts died after taking the drug in 1995 at an 18th birthday
> party in Essex.
>
> LSD has been blamed for causing insanity and deaths, including a young
> mother beheading her baby in the US.
>
> http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1184845.ece
>
> -- 
> Dr John Watson
> Baker Street
>

Dr John Watson wrote:
> My comment to this article:
> 
> When one considers the 114,000 a year killed by tobacco, the 5,000 a year
> who die from alcohol overdose and the 120,000 mental health cases a year
> also caused by alcohol, LSD and ecstasy seem relatively very safe drugs.
> 
> Lorna Spinks died because the tablets she took were far stronger than she
> was used to, it would be like mistaking whisky for beer and drinking five
> pints of it. This wouldn't have occurred if E was legal, just as people
> aren't offered pints of whisky to drink.
> 
> Leah Betts died of Water intoxication caused by drinking too much water,
> not the direct effects of ecstasy.
> 
> The alleged effects of LSD all sound apocryphal, I would be interested to
> learn their origin. The military tested LSD on soldiers in the 1960's
> (there's a funny video on YouTube of it) without them coming to any harm.

	Actually whether or not the secret LSD experiments on un-informed
participants caused harm is up in the air.  Some people apparently did not
recover from the totally unexpected effects.

> 
> 
> 
> BRITAIN’S new drug Czar wants to DOWNGRADE mind-bending ecstasy and LSD,
> it was revealed last night.
> 
> Professor David Nutt, who was appointed yesterday, says they should no
> longer be class A because it does not deter people from taking them.

	Better because there may be some medical/psychiatric use for
the chemicals.

> 
> The professor is the new chairman of the Government’s Advisory Council
> on the Misuse of Drugs.
> 
> In 2006 he told the council’s science and technology committee: “I
> think the evidence base for classification producing deterrence is not
> strong and we see that with a number of drugs.
> 
> “I think LSD and ecstasy probably shouldn’t be class A.”
> 
> The Home Office last night said classification of ecstasy may now
> re-examined.
> 
> A spokesman said: “The ACMD will consider the evidence for the
> classification of ecstasy with an open mind based upon its social misuse
> and harms relative to other drugs in the classification system.”
> 
> Prof Nutt, formerly the advisory council’s chief scientist, recently
> called the Government’s decision to upgrade cannabis to class B from
> class C “naive”.
> 
> He said reclassification would not put off users.
> 
> Prof Nutt took over from Sir Michael Rawlins, who said his successor would
> provide “the best possible advice to government.”
> 
> Home Secretary Jacqui Smith praised Sir Michael last night adding: “I
> look forward to working with his successor so that the advisory
> council’s expert advice can continue to inform our drive to reduce the
> harm caused by illegal substances.”
> 
> Lorna Spinks, 19, died in 2001 after taking two ecstasy tablets before
> visiting a nightclub in Cambridge.
> 
> And Leah Betts died after taking the drug in 1995 at an 18th birthday
> party in Essex.
> 
> LSD has been blamed for causing insanity and deaths, including a young
> mother beheading her baby in the US.
> 
> http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1184845.ece

	Lots of stories were made up about LSD to discourage people from
its use but on plain alcohol people made equally foolish decisions as
any made on LSD.

	The ban on LSD was simply another hysterical "Protect the children"
story which made drunken politicians like Ted Kennedy look good to the
the masses who never had a notion of what was being talked about.

	Try and find a copy of "Millbrook" by Art Kleps to find out
more about what happened at the US Congressional hearings.
"The Psychedelics Encyclopedia" by Peter Stafford has lots of
factual information.  "Storming Heaven" by Jay Stevens and "Acid
Dreams" by Martin A. Lee and Bruce Shlain contain more information
on what went on with the CIA experiments and how the Sixties
Rebellion (about the drugs) got energized.

	later
	bliss -- C  O C O A  Powered... (at california dot com)

-- 
  bobbie sellers -(Back to Angband)Team *AMIGA & SF-LUG*

"It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
  It is by the beans of cocoa that the thoughts acquire speed,
  the thighs acquire girth, the girth become a warning.
  It is by theobromine alone I set my mind in motion."
	--from Someone else's Dune spoof ripped to my taste.

Aidy wrote:
>> just as people aren't offered pints of whisky to drink.

	I see that a lot in the USA on the streets and at
parties, well I don't go to those parties any longer due to
age and other problems but they used to happen a lot.

> 
> I recall a new item where that did happen and the man did die.  Thing is, 
> most people couldn't physically drink a pint of whiskey as the body reacts 
> to it.  The same can't be said with popping pills.

	I have seen plenty of people chug pints but much more than that
and they have survival problems.

> 
>> Leah Betts died of Water intoxication caused by drinking too much water,
>> not the direct effects of ecstasy.
> 
> That's like saying "I didn't kill that person...it was the bullet that left 
> my gun that killed them".  "I didn't kill that person by throwing them off 
> the roof....it was the pavement that killed them."
	
	People have died of water intoxication with no other substances
involved.
	Why she was drinking too much water is an interesting question
but the primary problem ectasy users have is dehydration.

	later
	bliss -- C  O C O A  Powered... (at california dot com)


-- 
bobbie sellers - a retired nurse in San Francisco

     Ningen banji          Human beings do
     Samazama no           Every single kind
     Baka a suru           Of stupid thing
         --- 117th edition of Haifu Yanagidaru published in 1832

On Tue, 20 May 2008 14:44:44 +0100, "Aidy" 
wrote:

>>>No, they were dead.
>>
>> Was it water again?

>I can't tell if you are deliberately not understanding or if you are just 
>stupid. 

I'm not myself today, I've been at the water again.

Svenne

> I'm not myself today, I've been at the water again.

Ah....you're just stupid.

On Tue, 20 May 2008 17:21:27 +0100, "Aidy" 
wrote:

>> I'm not myself today, I've been at the water again.

>Ah....you're just stupid. 

It's the water wot did it.

Svenne

Noticed at Tue, 20 May 2008 11:02:57 +0000: Svenne informed us:

> On Tue, 20 May 2008 09:06:08 +0100, Dr John Watson
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>>LSD has been blamed for causing insanity and deaths, including a young
>>mother beheading her baby in the US.
> 
>>http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1184845.ece
> 
> That's a good one, enough to scare the shit out of any God fearing
> parent. Did the mother eat the head as well?

I expect she used it as a bong.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5764886.html


> Svenne

-- 
Dr John Watson
Baker Street

Noticed at Tue, 20 May 2008 12:43:57 +0100: Aidy informed us:

>> just as people aren't offered pints of whisky to drink.
> 
> I recall a new item where that did happen and the man did die.  Thing
> is, most people couldn't physically drink a pint of whiskey as the body
> reacts to it.  The same can't be said with popping pills.

That's why pills need regulating.

>> Leah Betts died of Water intoxication caused by drinking too much
>> water, not the direct effects of ecstasy.
> 
> That's like saying "I didn't kill that person...it was the bullet that
> left my gun that killed them".  "I didn't kill that person by throwing
> them off the roof....it was the pavement that killed them."

Some drug "experts" thought that drinking lots of water would counter the
effects of E. Water counters the effects of dehydration, not E.

One would think that a nurse and a police officer would know that.

-- 
Dr John Watson
Baker Street

Noticed at Tue, 20 May 2008 14:08:00 +0100: Aidy informed us:

>> Was the person who forced Leah Betts to drink all that water charged
>> with murder?
> 
> No, they were dead.

Eh? Leah Betts is dead, as far as I know, the others involved aren't.

-- 
Dr John Watson
Baker Street

Noticed at Tue, 20 May 2008 15:41:49 +0000: Svenne informed us:

> On Tue, 20 May 2008 14:44:44 +0100, "Aidy" 
> wrote:
> 
>>>>No, they were dead.
>>>
>>> Was it water again?
> 
>>I can't tell if you are deliberately not understanding or if you are just 
>>stupid. 
> 
> I'm not myself today, I've been at the water again.

Take more whisky with it. You know it makes sense.

> Svenne
-- 
Dr John Watson
Baker Street

Noticed at Tue, 20 May 2008 16:41:14 +0000: Svenne informed us:

> It's the water wot did it.

lol!

-- 
Dr John Watson
Baker Street

Noticed at Tue, 20 May 2008 08:15:44 -0700: bobbie sellers informed us:

> Why she was drinking too much water is an interesting question but the
> primary problem ectasy users have is dehydration.

No, they don't.

http://www.mdma.net/misc/urinary.html

You can't piss when pilled up. Dancing causes dehydration, so it's
recommended to drink ~1 litre(?) an hour. However, when not exercising,
it's best not to drink very much, to avoid risking hyponatremia.

-- 
Dr John Watson
Baker Street

Noticed at Tue, 20 May 2008 16:05:45 +0100: R. Mark Clayton informed us:

> A lot of rubbish in this post.
> 
> A false analogy - even I couldn't drink a pint of whisky without throwing up 
> and I have had several years practice.  I could very easily overdose on most 
> class A & B drugs (although interestingly not LSD).

You are right, but I was aiming the comment at Sun readers.

> Of course there is harm from using LSD and ecstasy, including suicides, 
> mental disturbance, heatstroke and drinking too much water.  Indeed whilst 
> LSD is not addictive*, it is probably the most dangerous recreational drug 
> to use.

Now, that sounds a lot of rubbish.

> * psychological dependence can occur.

-- 
Dr John Watson
Baker Street

Dr John Watson wrote:
> Noticed at Tue, 20 May 2008 16:05:45 +0100: R. Mark Clayton informed us:
> 
>> A lot of rubbish in this post.
>>
>> A false analogy - even I couldn't drink a pint of whisky without throwing up 
>> and I have had several years practice.  I could very easily overdose on most 
>> class A & B drugs (although interestingly not LSD).
> 
> You are right, but I was aiming the comment at Sun readers.
> 
>> Of course there is harm from using LSD and ecstasy, including suicides, 
>> mental disturbance, heatstroke and drinking too much water.  Indeed whilst 
>> LSD is not addictive*, it is probably the most dangerous recreational drug 
>> to use.
> 
> Now, that sounds a lot of rubbish.
> 
>> * psychological dependence can occur.
> 

LSD can cause a lot of serious problems but
I've never known it to cause dependancy.

On Tue, 20 May 2008 18:00:21 +0100, Dr John Watson
 wrote:

>Some drug "experts" thought that drinking lots of water would counter the
>effects of E. Water counters the effects of dehydration, not E.

>One would think that a nurse and a police officer would know that.

Police and nurses don't get correct and relevant information about
drugs.

Svenne

> Eh? Leah Betts is dead, as far as I know, the others involved aren't.

lol you stoners really are dumb.  Run along and desecrate some graves....

> That's why pills need regulating.

If I said "I know it is illegal to speed but I want to drive everywhere at 
100mph, even past schools.  Sometimes children die but that's why school 
gates should be regulated" what would your response be?

a) yes, i agree
b) no, the answer is for you to not speed in the first place and instead 
obey the laws of the land

On Tue, 20 May 2008 19:14:17 +0100, "Aidy" 
wrote:

>> That's why pills need regulating.
>
>If I said "I know it is illegal to speed but I want to drive everywhere at 
>100mph, even past schools.  Sometimes children die but that's why school 
>gates should be regulated" what would your response be?

That you are a thick cunt who has no idea of what he is talking about.

Svenne

On May 20, 1:14 pm, "Aidy"  wrote:

> > That's why pills need regulating.
>
> If I said "I know it is illegal to speed but I want to drive everywhere at
> 100mph, even past schools.  Sometimes children die but that's why school
> gates should be regulated"

John was addressing your point about the dangers of pills to the
user ... it's grossly dishonest for you to reply with an analogy
involving endangering others.

On Tue, 20 May 2008 11:57:55 -0700 (PDT), M_P 
wrote:

>On May 20, 1:14 pm, "Aidy"  wrote:
>
>> > That's why pills need regulating.
>>
>> If I said "I know it is illegal to speed but I want to drive everywhere at
>> 100mph, even past schools.  Sometimes children die but that's why school
>> gates should be regulated"

>John was addressing your point about the dangers of pills to the
>user ... it's grossly dishonest for you to reply with an analogy
>involving endangering others.

I don't think Aidy is dishonest, I think he's just thick and doesn't
really understand the issues involved.

Svenne

> That you are a thick cunt who has no idea of what he is talking about.

I see that simple analogies are beyond your intellect.  I guess it makes it 
easy going through life in total ignorance.

> John was addressing your point about the dangers of pills to the
> user ... it's grossly dishonest for you to reply with an analogy
> involving endangering others.

Why?  Selling drugs endangers the lives of others, doesn't it?  I 
mean....isn't that the exact point we're talking about?  That someone bought 
drugs of an unknown strength.

"Lorna Spinks died because the tablets she took were far stronger than she 
was used to"

Actually I'll tell you what....let's allow the OP to use an analogy then 
when people respond with their own analogies just declare that analogies are 
useless by wrongly stating they are inaccurate, even though the analogy used 
in the OP was inaccurate itself.

*rolls eyes*

On Tue, 20 May 2008 20:19:24 +0100, "Aidy" 
wrote:

>> That you are a thick cunt who has no idea of what he is talking about.

>I see that simple analogies are beyond your intellect.  I guess it makes it 
>easy going through life in total ignorance. 

I prefer relevant analogies.

Svenne

On May 20, 2:23 pm, "Aidy"  wrote:

> > John was addressing your point about the dangers of pills to the
> > user ... it's grossly dishonest for you to reply with an analogy
> > involving endangering others.
>
> Why?  Selling drugs endangers the lives of others, doesn't it?

No. Selling drugs *of* *unexpectedly* *high* *potency* may endanger
the lives of others ... and that's exactly what drug criminalization
exacerbates and legalization and regulation would minimize.

> I
> mean....isn't that the exact point we're talking about?  That someone bought
> drugs of an unknown strength.
>
> "Lorna Spinks died because the tablets she took were far stronger than she
> was used to"
>
> Actually I'll tell you what....let's allow the OP to use an analogy then
> when people respond with their own analogies just declare that analogies are
> useless

Who said that? Are you beating a straw man?

> by wrongly stating they are inaccurate,

As I have shown, it was inaccurate.

> even though the analogy used
> in the OP was inaccurate itself.

So you must be allowed inaccurate analogies because the OP proposed
one?

> *rolls eyes*

Indeed.

>> Leah Betts died of Water intoxication caused by drinking too much water,
>> not the direct effects of ecstasy.

>That's like saying "I didn't kill that person...it was the bullet that left 
>my gun that killed them".  "I didn't kill that person by throwing them off 
>the roof....it was the pavement that killed them."

So you are saying the person who supplied Leah Betts with water is the one
who killed her?

-Pete Zakel
 (phz@seeheader.nospam)

"When choosing between two evils I always like to take the one I've never
 tried before."
				-Mae West

In article  blissNOSPAM@california.com writes:
>Aidy wrote:

>> I recall a new item where that did happen and the man did die.  Thing is, 
>> most people couldn't physically drink a pint of whiskey as the body reacts 
>> to it.  The same can't be said with popping pills.

>	I have seen plenty of people chug pints but much more than that
>and they have survival problems.

There was a news story in the last year or so about someone who died after
drinking 21 shots of whiskey to celebrate his 21st birthday.

If you down it fast enough, you can get it into your system before "the body
reacts to it."

>>> Leah Betts died of Water intoxication caused by drinking too much water,
>>> not the direct effects of ecstasy.

>> That's like saying "I didn't kill that person...it was the bullet that left 
>> my gun that killed them".  "I didn't kill that person by throwing them off 
>> the roof....it was the pavement that killed them."

>	People have died of water intoxication with no other substances
>involved.
>	Why she was drinking too much water is an interesting question
>but the primary problem ectasy users have is dehydration.

Apparently, she was drinking lots of water because she knew that the primary
problem ecstasy users have is dehydration.

However, drinking lots of water can cause dilution of electrolytes, followed
by water intoxication and possible death.  If Leah had been given accurate
information about how to detect dehydration and the proper steps to take to
avoid it, she might still be alive.

As always, legalization, education and accurate information are much better
than prohibition.

-Pete Zakel
 (phz@seeheader.nospam)

"Uncompensated overtime?  Just Say No."

"Ball Bearing"  wrote in message 
news:g0v1d5$ava$1@aioe.org...
> Dr John Watson wrote:
>> Noticed at Tue, 20 May 2008 16:05:45 +0100: R. Mark Clayton informed us:
>>
>>> A lot of rubbish in this post.
>>>
>>> A false analogy - even I couldn't drink a pint of whisky without 
>>> throwing up and I have had several years practice.  I could very easily 
>>> overdose on most class A & B drugs (although interestingly not LSD).
>>
>> You are right, but I was aiming the comment at Sun readers.
>>
>>> Of course there is harm from using LSD and ecstasy, including suicides, 
>>> mental disturbance, heatstroke and drinking too much water.  Indeed 
>>> whilst LSD is not addictive*, it is probably the most dangerous 
>>> recreational drug to use.
>>
>> Now, that sounds a lot of rubbish.
>>
>>> * psychological dependence can occur.
>>
>
> LSD can cause a lot of serious problems but
> I've never known it to cause dependancy.
>

First hand observation (sadly) and also documented.

Dr John Watson wrote:
> Noticed at Tue, 20 May 2008 12:43:57 +0100: Aidy informed us:
> 
>>> just as people aren't offered pints of whisky to drink.
>> I recall a new item where that did happen and the man did die.  Thing
>> is, most people couldn't physically drink a pint of whiskey as the body
>> reacts to it.  The same can't be said with popping pills.
> 
> That's why pills need regulating.
> 
>>> Leah Betts died of Water intoxication caused by drinking too much
>>> water, not the direct effects of ecstasy.
>> That's like saying "I didn't kill that person...it was the bullet that
>> left my gun that killed them".  "I didn't kill that person by throwing
>> them off the roof....it was the pavement that killed them."
> 
> Some drug "experts" thought that drinking lots of water would counter the
> effects of E. Water counters the effects of dehydration, not E.
> 
> One would think that a nurse and a police officer would know that.
> 

	A nurse knows it but why did she drink enough to kill herself?
Misadventure or mis-information or ?  Maybe she wanted to die and chose
water to do it with?


	later
	bliss -- C  O C O A  Powered... (at california dot com)

-- 
bobbie sellers - a retired nurse in San Francisco

     Ningen banji          Human beings do
     Samazama no           Every single kind
     Baka a suru           Of stupid thing
         --- 117th edition of Haifu Yanagidaru published in 1832

R. Mark Clayton wrote:
> "Ball Bearing"  wrote in message 
> news:g0v1d5$ava$1@aioe.org...
>> Dr John Watson wrote:
>>> Noticed at Tue, 20 May 2008 16:05:45 +0100: R. Mark Clayton informed us:
>>>
>>>> A lot of rubbish in this post.
>>>>
>>>> A false analogy - even I couldn't drink a pint of whisky without 
>>>> throwing up and I have had several years practice.  I could very easily 
>>>> overdose on most class A & B drugs (although interestingly not LSD).
>>> You are right, but I was aiming the comment at Sun readers.
>>>
>>>> Of course there is harm from using LSD and ecstasy, including suicides, 
>>>> mental disturbance, heatstroke and drinking too much water.  Indeed 
>>>> whilst LSD is not addictive*, it is probably the most dangerous 
>>>> recreational drug to use.
>>> Now, that sounds a lot of rubbish.
>>>
>>>> * psychological dependence can occur.
>> LSD can cause a lot of serious problems but
>> I've never known it to cause dependancy.
>>
> 
> First hand observation (sadly) and also documented. 
> 
> 
	LSD cannot cause dependency.  By the method of its
action each substantial effective dosage has a minimum of
a 3 day refractory period.

	People who have addictive personalities get addicted
to nearly anything including water, homeopathic doses of
opoid drugs, use of needles to inject nearly anything and
many more substances.  I have know people with these
problems and the dilutant for powdered cocaine HCL could
give them most of the symptoms of a dose of cocaine and
they identified it by the distinctive odor as cocaine.


	later
	bliss -- C  O C O A  Powered... (at california dot com)

-- 
bobbie sellers - a retired nurse in San Francisco

     Ningen banji          Human beings do
     Samazama no           Every single kind
     Baka a suru           Of stupid thing
         --- 117th edition of Haifu Yanagidaru published in 1832

> If you down it fast enough, you can get it into your system before "the 
> body
> reacts to it."

For the alcohol to get into your blood/system it has to get to your 
intestines, through the stomach.  However alcohol can irritate the stomach 
causing you to throw up, or it can stop the stomach sending its contents to 
the intestines.  So you are at the mercy of your organs I'm afraid, and your 
body can stop alcohol getting into your system.

> I prefer relevant analogies.

The analogy in the OP was irrelevant so why didn't you question it?  Or are 
analogies only relevant when they back up your blinkered point of view?

> As I have shown, it was inaccurate.

You saying something doesn't make it true.

On Wed, 21 May 2008 09:39:09 +0100, "Aidy" 
wrote:

>> I prefer relevant analogies.
>
>The analogy in the OP was irrelevant so why didn't you question it?  Or are 
>analogies only relevant when they back up your blinkered point of view? 

I tend to be open minded and tolerant.

I can also see the difference between a private act a person performs
with themselves and an aggressive act someone forces upon another
against their will.

Svenne

> I can also see the difference between a private act a person performs
> with themselves and an aggressive act someone forces upon another
> against their will.

You are focusing on the wrong part of the analogy, no doubt deliberately.

Aidy wrote:
>> If you down it fast enough, you can get it into your system before "the 
>> body
>> reacts to it."
> 
> For the alcohol to get into your blood/system it has to get to your 
> intestines, through the stomach.  However alcohol can irritate the stomach 
> causing you to throw up, or it can stop the stomach sending its contents to 
> the intestines.  So you are at the mercy of your organs I'm afraid, and your 
> body can stop alcohol getting into your system. 

	When i was drinking I alway ate and that usually included
milk.  I put people who turned later into alcoholics under the
table matching them drink for drink.  I miss one or two of them a
great deal.  Curiously they didn't die of alcoholism but of familial 
susceptibilities to various ailments like cancer and uncontrollable
diabetes.  But I never tried to drink much without some food in my
gut.
	I stopped drinking for two reasons: boozing seemed to give
bronchitis and my doctor told me I needed my liver to deal with other
matters.  I didn't start until I was in my 20s and stopped in my
  early-30s, about 28 years ago.

	later
	bliss -- C  O C O A  Powered... (at california dot com)

-- 
bobbie sellers - a retired nurse in San Francisco

     Ningen banji          Human beings do
     Samazama no           Every single kind
     Baka a suru           Of stupid thing
         --- 117th edition of Haifu Yanagidaru published in 1832

> When i was drinking I alway ate and that usually included
> milk.

When you have food in your stomach it stays there while it is broken down, 
so anything alcoholic that you drink just sits in the stomach.  It only 
enters your system when the food has been broken down and is ready to be 
passed to the intestines for nutrient absorption.  That's why eating delays 
the effects of alcohol.  It is also possible to drink so much you don't get 
any more drunk.  That is when the alcohol has irritated the sphincter in 
your stomach (no laughing at the back) and it refuses to release anything 
more into your intestines.

As for milk having a specific use, I'm not sure.  If it does then it will be 
the high protein content which your body finds hard to break down.

On May 21, 3:39 am, "Aidy"  wrote:

> > As I have shown, it was inaccurate.
>
> You saying something doesn't make it true.

Your cutting all the text except one line does make you a coward.

Aidy wrote:
>> That's why pills need regulating.
>
> If I said "I know it is illegal to speed but I want to drive
> everywhere at 100mph, even past schools.  Sometimes children die but
> that's why school gates should be regulated" what would your response
> be?

A more accurate comparison to drugs would be: "Driving past schools at 
100mph is dangerous - Therefore lets ban driving".


Slatts

On May 21, 3:38 am, "Aidy"  wrote:

> > If you down it fast enough, you can get it into your system before "the
> > body
> > reacts to it."
>
> For the alcohol to get into your blood/system it has to get to your
> intestines, through the stomach.  However alcohol can irritate the stomach
> causing you to throw up, or it can stop the stomach sending its contents to
> the intestines.  So you are at the mercy of your organs I'm afraid, and your
> body can stop alcohol getting into your system.

Not always:

'An autopsy by the state Medical Examiner's Office declared Beggs'
death the result of "acute ethanol intoxication."' -
http://www.sunjournal.com/story/265977-3/LewistonAuburn/Man_gets_4_years_in_alcohol_death/

On Wed, 21 May 2008 16:27:12 +0100, "Aidy" 
wrote:

>> When i was drinking I alway ate and that usually included
>> milk.

>When you have food in your stomach it stays there while it is broken down, 
>so anything alcoholic that you drink just sits in the stomach.  It only 
>enters your system when the food has been broken down and is ready to be 
>passed to the intestines for nutrient absorption.  That's why eating delays 
>the effects of alcohol.  It is also possible to drink so much you don't get 
>any more drunk.  That is when the alcohol has irritated the sphincter in 
>your stomach (no laughing at the back) and it refuses to release anything 
>more into your intestines.

>As for milk having a specific use, I'm not sure.  If it does then it will be 
>the high protein content which your body finds hard to break down. 

I was told ages ago that alcohol can be absorbed into the blood
directly by the stomach lining and did not need to pass into the
intestines.  I was also told that fatty foods and milk provided a
barrier in the stomach that slowed down the rate of absorbtion.

I have never bothered to check how accurate either statement is.  I do
know from experience however that I will be affected by alchoholic
drinks far more if I have an empty stomach than if I have recently
eaten.  I have also observed in myself that after eating a meal I am
less likely to feel like drinking an alcholic drink.

-- 
Cynic

> A more accurate comparison to drugs would be: "Driving past schools at 
> 100mph is dangerous - Therefore lets ban driving".

Not accurate at all.  Many drugs are not banned.

Noticed at Tue, 20 May 2008 19:11:26 +0100: Aidy informed us:

>> Eh? Leah Betts is dead, as far as I know, the others involved aren't.
> 
> lol you stoners really are dumb.  Run along and desecrate some graves....

As we're all obviously so much dumber than you, perhaps you could explain
in what you mean, in simple English.

-- 
Dr John Watson
Baker Street

Noticed at Tue, 20 May 2008 14:32:01 -0800: Pete nospam Zakel informed us:

> There was a news story in the last year or so about someone who died after
> drinking 21 shots of whiskey to celebrate his 21st birthday.

There was a news story in the Daily Mail during the Leah Betts rantings
about a teenager who died after drinking 1/2 a bottle of vodka. It didn't
evoke paroxysms of moral outrage, though. Journalists are known to like a
pint or twenty.

-- 
Dr John Watson
Baker Street

Noticed at Tue, 20 May 2008 14:32:01 -0800: Pete nospam Zakel informed us:

> Apparently, she was drinking lots of water because she knew that the primary
> problem ecstasy users have is dehydration.

As I understand it, she WAS GIVEN lots of water to drink. Her 18th
birthday party was in her own home and her parents were present. Her
mother was a nurse and her father a police officer.

> However, drinking lots of water can cause dilution of electrolytes, followed
> by water intoxication and possible death.  If Leah had been given accurate
> information about how to detect dehydration and the proper steps to take to
> avoid it, she might still be alive.
> 
> As always, legalization, education and accurate information are much better
> than prohibition.
-- 
Dr John Watson
Baker Street

Noticed at Wed, 21 May 2008 18:05:33 +0100: Cynic informed us:

> I was told ages ago that alcohol can be absorbed into the blood
> directly by the stomach lining and did not need to pass into the
> intestines.  I was also told that fatty foods and milk provided a
> barrier in the stomach that slowed down the rate of absorbtion.

I understand that the lining of the stomach is covered in mucous, to
prevent the HCl damaging it. I would think absorption through the lining
unlikely.

> I have never bothered to check how accurate either statement is.  I do
> know from experience however that I will be affected by alchoholic
> drinks far more if I have an empty stomach than if I have recently
> eaten.  I have also observed in myself that after eating a meal I am
> less likely to feel like drinking an alcholic drink.
-- 
Dr John Watson
Baker Street

Noticed at Tue, 20 May 2008 17:53:07 +0000: Svenne informed us:

> On Tue, 20 May 2008 18:00:21 +0100, Dr John Watson
>  wrote:
> 
>>Some drug "experts" thought that drinking lots of water would counter
>>the effects of E. Water counters the effects of dehydration, not E.
> 
>>One would think that a nurse and a police officer would know that.
> 
> Police and nurses don't get correct and relevant information about
> drugs.

Police, certainly not. They just get enough information to be drug
warriors. Some of the crap the police experts come out with is hilarious.
I remember one expert claiming you could get high from cannabis spores!

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.1790774.0.0.php

I am surprised that a nurse wouldn't know that drinking 7 litres of water
can be deadly.

> Svenne

-- 
Dr John Watson
Baker Street

Noticed at Tue, 20 May 2008 19:14:17 +0100: Aidy informed us:

>> That's why pills need regulating.
> 
> If I said "I know it is illegal to speed but I want to drive everywhere at 
> 100mph, even past schools.  Sometimes children die but that's why school 
> gates should be regulated" what would your response be?

That situation is not relevant to buying pills for oneself and taking them
oneself.

> a) yes, i agree
> b) no, the answer is for you to not speed in the first place and instead 
> obey the laws of the land

That law is to prevent injury to third parties. Drug laws are supposed to
prevent injury to oneself. But they are inconsistently applied, E is class
A, for no apparent reason, and booze, which would be class A if illegal,
is legal.

Drug users are in a similar position to homosexuals before 1968. What they
do affects no other party, it is illegal because somebody finds it
"disgusting" or "morally wrong", and invents all sorts of other reasons
(health, usually) to hide behind, whilst continuing to do other
activities that are at least as dangerous (such as drinking alcohol or
having multiple heterosexual partners).

-- 
Dr John Watson
Baker Street

Noticed at Wed, 21 May 2008 01:03:28 +0100: R. Mark Clayton informed us:


> "Ball Bearing"  wrote in message
> news:g0v1d5$ava$1@aioe.org...
>> Dr John Watson wrote:
>>> Noticed at Tue, 20 May 2008 16:05:45 +0100: R. Mark Clayton informed
>>> us:
>>>
>>>> A lot of rubbish in this post.
>>>>
>>>> A false analogy - even I couldn't drink a pint of whisky without
>>>> throwing up and I have had several years practice.  I could very
>>>> easily overdose on most class A & B drugs (although interestingly not
>>>> LSD).
>>>
>>> You are right, but I was aiming the comment at Sun readers.
>>>
>>>> Of course there is harm from using LSD and ecstasy, including
>>>> suicides, mental disturbance, heatstroke and drinking too much water.
>>>>  Indeed whilst LSD is not addictive*, it is probably the most
>>>> dangerous recreational drug to use.
>>>
>>> Now, that sounds a lot of rubbish.
>>>
>>>> * psychological dependence can occur.
>>>
>>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6474053.stm#drugs
>> LSD can cause a lot of serious problems but I've never known it to
>> cause dependancy.
>>
>>
> First hand observation (sadly) and also documented.

Apart from Syd, which the other members of Floyd dispute, who has come to
harm from LSD use?

I've read all the tabloid hysteria - makes you think you can fly, blind by
staring at the sun, stays in your spinal cord and hits you when you least
expect it etc. Is there any documented evidence about it? The Academy of
Medical Sciences rank it at #14.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6474053.stm#drugs

-- 
Dr John Watson
Baker Street

In article ,
Dr John Watson   wrote:
>> I was told ages ago that alcohol can be absorbed into the blood
>> directly by the stomach lining and did not need to pass into the
>> intestines.  I was also told that fatty foods and milk provided a
>> barrier in the stomach that slowed down the rate of absorbtion.
>
>I understand that the lining of the stomach is covered in mucous, to
>prevent the HCl damaging it. I would think absorption through the lining
>unlikely.

I'm pretty certain Cynic is correct on both counts. Some (perhaps
a fifth) of the alcohol is absorbed in the stomach lining. The
presence of mucus won't offer much of a barrier because alcohol
is highly water-soluble, and it will diffuse readily through an
aqueous phase even if there are proteins and glycosylated peptides
there as well.

Francis

In article ,
Dr John Watson   wrote:
>There was a news story in the Daily Mail during the Leah Betts rantings
>about a teenager who died after drinking 1/2 a bottle of vodka. It didn't
>evoke paroxysms of moral outrage, though. Journalists are known to like a
>pint or twenty.

It is quite like the lack of moral outrage after manslaughter by
motorists.

Francis

On May 20, 11:21 am, "Aidy"  wrote:
> > I'm not myself today, I've been at the water again.
>
> Ah....you're just stupid.

Maybe water should be a class A substance. It sounds like the REAL
killer.

Aidy wrote:
>> A more accurate comparison to drugs would be: "Driving past schools
>> at 100mph is dangerous - Therefore lets ban driving".
>
> Not accurate at all.  Many drugs are not banned.

Very true...
So it's more a case of: "Driving past schools at 100mph is dangerous - lets 
ban Mercs and Fords but not Vauxalls and Fiats"!

Slatts

Dr John Watson wrote:
<SNIP>>> First hand observation (sadly) and also documented.
>
> Apart from Syd, which the other members of Floyd dispute, who has
> come to harm from LSD use?

Most would dispute that Syd brain was fried by acid alone. Many of us at 
that time took crazy doses of acid without any ill effects. In my personal 
experience of all the cases of fried brains were from what our friend Claude 
would call "Polydrug" use. You know what I mean, using hash, mandys, speed, 
uppers, downers, booze and acid all together.

Remember that kids - Don't mix your drugs!

Slatts

Sla#s wrote:
> Dr John Watson wrote:
> <SNIP>>> First hand observation (sadly) and also documented.
>>
>> Apart from Syd, which the other members of Floyd dispute, who has
>> come to harm from LSD use?
> 
> Most would dispute that Syd brain was fried by acid alone. Many of us at 
> that time took crazy doses of acid without any ill effects. In my 
> personal experience of all the cases of fried brains were from what our 
> friend Claude would call "Polydrug" use. You know what I mean, using 
> hash, mandys, speed, uppers, downers, booze and acid all together.
> 
> Remember that kids - Don't mix your drugs!
> 
> Slatts

	From what I have read Syd was never that tightly wrapped
a package to start with.  But he made lovely music when he could
get his act together.

	later
	bliss -- C  O C O A  Powered... (at california dot com)

--
bobbie sellers - a retired nurse in San Francisco

"It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
  It is by the beans of cocoa that the thoughts acquire speed,
  the thighs acquire girth, the girth become a warning.
  It is by theobromine alone I set my mind in motion."
	--from Someone else's Dune spoof ripped to my taste.

In article 
,
 SaintCaptainCrunch  wrote:

> On May 20, 11:21 am, "Aidy"  wrote:
> > > I'm not myself today, I've been at the water again.
> >
> > Ah....you're just stupid.
> 
> Maybe water should be a class A substance. It sounds like the REAL
> killer.

Dihydrogen Monoxide is implicated in a large fraction of deaths. When 
addicts are deprived they will do *anything* to get it or substances 
containing it.

-- 
What is done in the heat of battle is (normatively) judged
by different standards than what is leisurely planned in
comfortable conference rooms.

bobbie sellers wrote:
> Sla#s wrote:
>> Dr John Watson wrote:
>> <SNIP>>> First hand observation (sadly) and also documented.
>>>
>>> Apart from Syd, which the other members of Floyd dispute, who has
>>> come to harm from LSD use?
>>
>> Most would dispute that Syd brain was fried by acid alone. Many of
>> us at that time took crazy doses of acid without any ill effects. In
>> my personal experience of all the cases of fried brains were from
>> what our friend Claude would call "Polydrug" use. You know what I
>> mean, using hash, mandys, speed, uppers, downers, booze and acid all
>> together. Remember that kids - Don't mix your drugs!
>>
>> Slatts
>
> From what I have read Syd was never that tightly wrapped
> a package to start with.  But he made lovely music when he could
> get his act together.

I saw his last major appearance with the Floyd (22.12.67) - they were crap 
:-(  Well crap compared to Hendrix at the same show :-)
Because of that I never went to any of their concerts again - What a 
Bastard! All the great performances I missed!!

Slatts

Noticed at Thu, 22 May 2008 12:19:58 +0000: Francis Burton informed us:

> In article ,
> Dr John Watson   wrote:
>>> I was told ages ago that alcohol can be absorbed into the blood
>>> directly by the stomach lining and did not need to pass into the
>>> intestines.  I was also told that fatty foods and milk provided a
>>> barrier in the stomach that slowed down the rate of absorbtion.
>>
>>I understand that the lining of the stomach is covered in mucous, to
>>prevent the HCl damaging it. I would think absorption through the lining
>>unlikely.
> 
> I'm pretty certain Cynic is correct on both counts. Some (perhaps
> a fifth) of the alcohol is absorbed in the stomach lining. The
> presence of mucus won't offer much of a barrier because alcohol
> is highly water-soluble, and it will diffuse readily through an
> aqueous phase even if there are proteins and glycosylated peptides
> there as well.

That sounds reasonable, I stand corrected.

> 
> Francis
-- 
Dr John Watson
Baker Street