In contrast to the way things are in the countries of the United 
Kingdom, in post-WW2 Germany the citizens of cities and regions (states 
of the federation) have effective tools of participation in politics 
beyond voting for candidates every few years.

A recent case is Leipzig. The city government had begun to sell off 
publicly owned services such as electricity supply and had worked out a 
deal with a a large company. A citizens' initiative put forward a 
proposal to block the sale (and similar sales) for at least three years. 
After success of the "initiative", requiring some thousands of 
endorsements, a referendum was compulsory. This was held in January 2008 
and with an overwhelming majority and respectable turnout "the motion 
was carried".

Now the city council will be forced to prepare a new plan for the city 
finances.

More information:
Leipziger gegen Verkauf ihrer Stadtwerke an Gaz de France
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5i6_9iPoxkPTszeO7yK4UUIhrHNzA

Leipziger Haushaltsplan muss nach Bürgerentscheid überarbeitet werden 
http://leipzig-seiten.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1736&Itemid=42 


I&R ~ GB Citizens' Initiative and Referendum
Campaign for direct democracy in Britain
http://www.iniref.org/

Even better democracy in nearby *Switzerland* country.



"I&Rgb" <""info \"@ iniref.org"> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:60dqs3F1pm3v9U1@mid.uni-berlin.de...
> In contrast to the way things are in the countries of the United Kingdom,
> in post-WW2 Germany the citizens of cities and regions (states of the
> federation) have effective tools of participation in politics beyond
> voting for candidates every few years.
>
> A recent case is Leipzig. The city government had begun to sell off
> publicly owned services such as electricity supply and had worked out a
> deal with a a large company. A citizens' initiative put forward a proposal
> to block the sale (and similar sales) for at least three years. After
> success of the "initiative", requiring some thousands of endorsements, a
> referendum was compulsory. This was held in January 2008 and with an
> overwhelming majority and respectable turnout "the motion was carried".
>
> Now the city council will be forced to prepare a new plan for the city
> finances.
>
> More information:
> Leipziger gegen Verkauf ihrer Stadtwerke an Gaz de France
> http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5i6_9iPoxkPTszeO7yK4UUIhrHNzA
>
> Leipziger Haushaltsplan muss nach Bürgerentscheid überarbeitet werden
> http://leipzig-seiten.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1736&Itemid=42
>
> I&R ~ GB Citizens' Initiative and Referendum
> Campaign for direct democracy in Britain
> http://www.iniref.org/

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:51:06 +0100, I&Rgb <""info \"@ iniref.org">
wrote:

>In contrast to the way things are in the countries of the United 
>Kingdom, in post-WW2 Germany the citizens of cities and regions (states 
>of the federation) have effective tools of participation in politics 
>beyond voting for candidates every few years.

Indeed so. Germany is THE model social market democracy among all EU
states. The "representation ratio" (number of citizens per MP or
equivalent) is something like 112:1 whereas in the UK it is more like
1200:1

Germany has a system of individual regions (Länder), each with its own
regional parliament and local government structure, each with its own
"Minister President". Some are CDU, some are SPD, some of mixtures,
plus FDP. At a more local level there is the basic organisational unit
of the Gemeinde, also with its council members. Here is a useful
illustration of the German administrative "pyramid":
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Administrative_Gliederung_Deutschlands.png

MM

Even better democracy in nearby *Switzerland* country.




"MM"  schrieb im Newsbeitrag 
news:p5u3q3po3eq4f33rrjov7na8kjunpj2pid@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:51:06 +0100, I&Rgb <""info \"@ iniref.org">
> wrote:
>
>>In contrast to the way things are in the countries of the United
>>Kingdom, in post-WW2 Germany the citizens of cities and regions (states
>>of the federation) have effective tools of participation in politics
>>beyond voting for candidates every few years.
>
> Indeed so. Germany is THE model social market democracy among all EU
> states. The "representation ratio" (number of citizens per MP or
> equivalent) is something like 112:1 whereas in the UK it is more like
> 1200:1
>
> Germany has a system of individual regions (Länder), each with its own
> regional parliament and local government structure, each with its own
> "Minister President". Some are CDU, some are SPD, some of mixtures,
> plus FDP. At a more local level there is the basic organisational unit
> of the Gemeinde, also with its council members. Here is a useful
> illustration of the German administrative "pyramid":
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Administrative_Gliederung_Deutschlands.png
>
> MM

"Michael Laudahn eOpposition"  wrote in
news:1jpg78.9ie.17.1@news.alt.net: 

> 
> Even better democracy in nearby *Switzerland* country.

So 'excellent' they barred women from voting in the referenda
and elections until a few years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> "I&Rgb" <""info \"@ iniref.org"> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:60dqs3F1pm3v9U1@mid.uni-berlin.de...
>> In contrast to the way things are in the countries of the United
>> Kingdom, in post-WW2 Germany the citizens of cities and regions
>> (states of the federation) have effective tools of participation in
>> politics beyond voting for candidates every few years.
>>
>> A recent case is Leipzig. The city government had begun to sell off
>> publicly owned services such as electricity supply and had worked out
>> a deal with a a large company. A citizens' initiative put forward a
>> proposal to block the sale (and similar sales) for at least three
>> years. After success of the "initiative", requiring some thousands of
>> endorsements, a referendum was compulsory. This was held in January
>> 2008 and with an overwhelming majority and respectable turnout "the
>> motion was carried". 
>>
>> Now the city council will be forced to prepare a new plan for the
>> city finances.
>>
>> More information:
>> Leipziger gegen Verkauf ihrer Stadtwerke an Gaz de France
>> http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5i6_9iPoxkPTszeO7yK4UUIhrHNzA
>>
>> Leipziger Haushaltsplan muss nach Bürgerentscheid überarbeitet werden
>> http://leipzig-seiten.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=173
>> 6&Itemid=42 
>>
>> I&R ~ GB Citizens' Initiative and Referendum
>> Campaign for direct democracy in Britain
>> http://www.iniref.org/
> 
> 
> 
>

"soupdragon"  schrieb im Newsbeitrag 
news:Xns9A36DA815385Dsouphotmailcom@193.201.53.67...


>
>>
>> Even better democracy in nearby *Switzerland* country.
>
> So 'excellent' they barred women from voting in the referenda
> and elections until a few years ago.
>>


Replace your cliches and the occasional oddity by comprehensive factual 
knowledge.



-- 
Proudly introducing the free speech concept to german/european politicians &
jurists.   >.)

'Freedom of speech - use it or lose it.'

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:32:28 +0100, "Michael Laudahn eOpposition"
 wrote:

>
>Even better democracy in nearby *Switzerland* country.

It was bad enough to risk a fine for hanging out washing on a Sunday.
Switzerland is FAR worse than that!

MM

"Michael Laudahn eOpposition"  wrote in 
news:1jq8pc.98c.17.1@news.alt.net:

> 
> "soupdragon"  schrieb im Newsbeitrag 
> news:Xns9A36DA815385Dsouphotmailcom@193.201.53.67...
> 
> 
>>
>>>
>>> Even better democracy in nearby *Switzerland* country.
>>
>> So 'excellent' they barred women from voting in the referenda
>> and elections until a few years ago.
>>>
> 
> 
> Replace your cliches and the occasional oddity by comprehensive factual 
> knowledge.
> 

I have done. Feel free to enlighten yourself with Switzerland's less
than glorious history with respect to womens sufferage. Clearly you
are in need of it. Mind you, you are posting from the Altopia troll
haven..

"soupdragon"  schrieb im Newsbeitrag 
news:Xns9A37C0C873401souphotmailcom@193.201.53.67...

>
> I have done. Feel free to enlighten yourself with Switzerland's less
> than glorious history with respect to womens sufferage. Clearly you
> are in need of it. Mind you, you are posting from the Altopia troll
> haven..
>


I don't have to reply to any obvious nonsense, do I?   >.)



-- 
Proudly introducing the free speech concept to german/european politicians &
jurists.   >.)

'Freedom of speech - use it or lose it.'

soupdragon wrote:
> "Michael Laudahn eOpposition"  wrote in 
> news:1jq8pc.98c.17.1@news.alt.net:
> 
>> "soupdragon"  schrieb im Newsbeitrag 
>> news:Xns9A36DA815385Dsouphotmailcom@193.201.53.67...
>>
>>
>>>> Even better democracy in nearby *Switzerland* country.
>>> So 'excellent' they barred women from voting in the referenda
>>> and elections until a few years ago.
>>
>> Replace your cliches and the occasional oddity by comprehensive factual 
>> knowledge.
>>
> 
> I have done. Feel free to enlighten yourself with Switzerland's less
> than glorious history with respect to womens sufferage. Clearly you
> are in need of it. Mind you, you are posting from the Altopia troll
> haven..
> 

Perhaps because it allows all citizens to take part in public life on a 
more equal footing, women seem to give Swiss style democracy good marks.

Here's an example

Volksinitiativen haben sich in der Vergangenheit als nützliches 
Instrument für die Gleichstel-lungspolitik in der Schweiz erwiesen, vgl. 
Senti (1994: 386).
Kathrin ARIOLI, Wissenschaftliche Mitarbeiterin, Fachstelle für 
Gleichberechtigungsfragen des Kantons Zürich (1998) Swiss Political 
Science Review 4(2): 129-144

Frau Arioli, who works in the Equality unit, Canton of Zuerich, writes 
that citizens' initiatives (part of direct democracy) have proved useful 
in the politics of gender equality in Switzerland.

I&R ~ GB Citizens' Initiative and Referendum
Campaign for direct democracy in Britain
http://www.iniref.org/

On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 12:20:40 +0100, I&Rgb <""info \"@ iniref.org">
wrote:

>soupdragon wrote:
>> "Michael Laudahn eOpposition"  wrote in 
>> news:1jq8pc.98c.17.1@news.alt.net:
>> 
>>> "soupdragon"  schrieb im Newsbeitrag 
>>> news:Xns9A36DA815385Dsouphotmailcom@193.201.53.67...
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Even better democracy in nearby *Switzerland* country.
>>>> So 'excellent' they barred women from voting in the referenda
>>>> and elections until a few years ago.
>>>
>>> Replace your cliches and the occasional oddity by comprehensive factual 
>>> knowledge.
>>>
>> 
>> I have done. Feel free to enlighten yourself with Switzerland's less
>> than glorious history with respect to womens sufferage. Clearly you
>> are in need of it. Mind you, you are posting from the Altopia troll
>> haven..
>> 
>
>Perhaps because it allows all citizens to take part in public life on a 
>more equal footing, women seem to give Swiss style democracy good marks.

Perhaps they're only trying to atone for past sins. It's less than 20
years since the last canton was forced by the federal court to allow
women to vote.

http://www.sf.tv/sfwissen/dossier.php?docid=15258&navpath=pol

"Michael Laudahn eOpposition"  wrote in 
news:1jsgth.nis.17.1@news.alt.net:

> 
> "soupdragon"  schrieb im Newsbeitrag 
> news:Xns9A37C0C873401souphotmailcom@193.201.53.67...
> 
>>
>> I have done. Feel free to enlighten yourself with Switzerland's less
>> than glorious history with respect to womens sufferage. Clearly you
>> are in need of it. Mind you, you are posting from the Altopia troll
>> haven..
>>
> 
> 
> I don't have to reply to any obvious nonsense, do I?   >.)

If you don't have an answer, you don't have to reply to anything - do you?

On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 19:41:23 +0000, Custos Custodum 
wrote:

>On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 12:20:40 +0100, I&Rgb <""info \"@ iniref.org">
>wrote:
>
>>soupdragon wrote:
>>> "Michael Laudahn eOpposition"  wrote in 
>>> news:1jq8pc.98c.17.1@news.alt.net:
>>> 
>>>> "soupdragon"  schrieb im Newsbeitrag 
>>>> news:Xns9A36DA815385Dsouphotmailcom@193.201.53.67...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Even better democracy in nearby *Switzerland* country.
>>>>> So 'excellent' they barred women from voting in the referenda
>>>>> and elections until a few years ago.
>>>>
>>>> Replace your cliches and the occasional oddity by comprehensive factual 
>>>> knowledge.
>>>>
>>> 
>>> I have done. Feel free to enlighten yourself with Switzerland's less
>>> than glorious history with respect to womens sufferage. Clearly you
>>> are in need of it. Mind you, you are posting from the Altopia troll
>>> haven..
>>> 
>>
>>Perhaps because it allows all citizens to take part in public life on a 
>>more equal footing, women seem to give Swiss style democracy good marks.
>
>Perhaps they're only trying to atone for past sins. It's less than 20
>years since the last canton was forced by the federal court to allow
>women to vote.
So that's all downhill fro Ch too then. What sin btw?

Custos Custodum wrote:

>>>
>> Perhaps because it allows all citizens to take part in public life on a 
>> more equal footing, women seem to give Swiss style democracy good marks.
> 
> Perhaps they're only trying to atone for past sins. It's less than 20
> years since the last canton was forced by the federal court to allow
> women to vote.
> 
> http://www.sf.tv/sfwissen/dossier.php?docid=15258&navpath=pol
> 
> 

More about Swiss governance here http://www.iniref.org/swissdemocracy.html

I&Rgb <""info \"@ iniref.org"> wrote in
news:60li93F1rm83vU1@mid.uni-berlin.de: 

> Custos Custodum wrote:
> 
>>>>
>>> Perhaps because it allows all citizens to take part in public life
>>> on a more equal footing, women seem to give Swiss style democracy
>>> good marks. 
>> 
>> Perhaps they're only trying to atone for past sins. It's less than 20
>> years since the last canton was forced by the federal court to allow
>> women to vote.
>> 
>> http://www.sf.tv/sfwissen/dossier.php?docid=15258&navpath=pol
>> 
>> 
> 
> More about Swiss governance here
> http://www.iniref.org/swissdemocracy.html 
> 

Nothing there about the Swiss's less than glorious record regarding
womens sufferage. I wonder why? Anthying to do with the 'Citizens/Men-
Only Initiative' in the 1959 that ensured they were kept out of the
democratic process by overturning the Swiss Parliaments decision in
1958? As the previous poster mentioned, it took a Federal Court ruling
to force the change in 1991 after a citizens/men-only initiative rejected
it at canton level the previous year.

Citizens Initiative = Majority tyrrany. The rights of minorities must be 
enshrined in and protected by a written constitution befor a citizens
initiative can be put in place.

soupdragon wrote:
>> More about Swiss governance here
>> http://www.iniref.org/swissdemocracy.html 
>>
> 
> Nothing there about the Swiss's less than glorious record regarding
> womens sufferage. I wonder why? Anthying to do with the 'Citizens/Men-
> Only Initiative' in the 1959 that ensured they were kept out of the
> democratic process by overturning the Swiss Parliaments decision in
> 1958? As the previous poster mentioned, it took a Federal Court ruling
> to force the change in 1991 after a citizens/men-only initiative rejected
> it at canton level the previous year.
> 
> Citizens Initiative = Majority tyrrany. The rights of minorities must be 
> enshrined in and protected by a written constitution befor a citizens
> initiative can be put in place.
> 

This thread is about the following:
"In contrast to the way things are in the countries of the United 
Kingdom, in post-WW2 Germany the citizens of cities and regions (states 
of the federation) have effective tools of participation in politics 
beyond voting for candidates every few years.

A recent case is Leipzig. The city government had begun to sell off 
publicly owned services such as electricity supply and had worked out a 
deal with a a large company. A citizens' initiative put forward a 
proposal to block the sale (and similar sales) for at least three years. 
After success of the "initiative", requiring some thousands of 
endorsements, a referendum was compulsory. This was held in January 2008 
and with an overwhelming majority and respectable turnout "the motion 
was carried".

Now the city council will be forced to prepare a new plan for the city 
finances.

More information:
Leipziger gegen Verkauf ihrer Stadtwerke an Gaz de France
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5i6_9iPoxkPTszeO7yK4UUIhrHNzA

Leipziger Haushaltsplan muss nach Bürgerentscheid überarbeitet werden 
http://leipzig-seiten.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1736&Itemid=42
UNQUOTE

The point made by the previous poster has often been dealt with in these 
    groups. If s/he wishes to discuss a different topic then s/he may 
start another thread.

I&R ~ GB Citizens' Initiative and Referendum
Campaign for direct democracy in Britain
http://www.iniref.org/

I&Rgb <""info \"@ iniref.org"> wrote in
news:60p1lbF1oa7kpU1@mid.uni-berlin.de: 

> soupdragon wrote:
>>> More about Swiss governance here
>>> http://www.iniref.org/swissdemocracy.html 
>>>
>> 
>> Nothing there about the Swiss's less than glorious record regarding
>> womens sufferage. I wonder why? Anthying to do with the
>> 'Citizens/Men- Only Initiative' in the 1959 that ensured they were
>> kept out of the democratic process by overturning the Swiss
>> Parliaments decision in 1958? As the previous poster mentioned, it
>> took a Federal Court ruling to force the change in 1991 after a
>> citizens/men-only initiative rejected it at canton level the previous
>> year. 
>> 
>> Citizens Initiative = Majority tyrrany. The rights of minorities must
>> be enshrined in and protected by a written constitution befor a
>> citizens initiative can be put in place.
>> 
> 
> This thread is about the following:

This thread contained the claim that Swiss democracy was better, and
that is what is being discussed here by most contributers.