-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=
-= Capital. Radio - Chris Tarrant -=
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=

Capital Radio DJs. have been "in on it" from the start. One of the first
things I heard in the summer of. 1990 was from a Capital DJ who said, "If
he listens to Capital then he can't be all bad". (supportive, you see. We're
not. bastards). Much of what came over the radio in 1990 is now so far away
the. precise details have been obliterated by time. No diary was kept of the
details, and although archives if they exist may give pointers,. the
ambiguity. of what broadcasters said would leave that open to
re-interpretation.

In spring. 1994, Chris Tarrant on his Capital morning show made an aside to
someone else in. the studio, about a person he didn't identify. He said,
"You know this bloke? He says we're trying to kill him. We. should be done
for. attempted manslaughter".

That mirrored something I had said a day or two before. What. Tarrant said
was understood by the staff member in the studio he was saying it. to; they
said,. "Oh no, don't say that" to Tarrant. If any archives exist of the
morning show (probably unlikely) then. it could be found there; what he said
was so out of context that. he would be very hard put to find an explanation.
A couple of days later, someone at the site where I. was working repeated the
remark although in a different way; they said there had been people in. a
computer. room when automatic fire extinguishers went off and those people
were "thinking of suing for attempted. manslaughter".

Finally, this isn't confined to the established. radio stations. In 1990
after I had listened to a pirate radio station in. South London for about
half an hour, there was an audible phone call. in the background, followed
by total silence for a few moments, then shrieks. of laughter. "So what are
we supposed to say now? Deadly torture?. He's going to talk to us now, isn't
he?", which meant that they could hear what I would. say in my room.

5670

Whilst most of us went off to have a good old knees up, some auld lang
syne and some real traditional values. The usual sad, lonely,
pathetic, pedants and bullies were still  a frenzy arguing over
nothing!

You sad fucks know who you are and my wish for 2008 would be that you
either died, or got a life!


To those that matter Happy New year. To those that don't UP YOURS.

Sheesh..........

-- 
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Malcolm"  wrote in message news:m4bkn3dr00s5egm8cvl3p6josbpm7j04eu@4ax.com...

> Whilst most of us went off to have a good old knees up, some auld lang
> syne and some real traditional values.

Which undoubtably includes gorging on a "real traditional" meal
of parts of dead animals - animals raised using many millions of
hectares of what was once natural habitat, both UK and abroad.

'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,
50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet
lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming.
..'
http://www.flex.com/~jai/articles/101.html

Mr. CONservasionist.

'British wildlife in steep decline as man-made activities take their toll

By Michael McCarthy, Environment Editor
Published: 01 January 2008

Several of Britain's best-known animal species, ranging from the
hedgehog to the harbour seal, are now suffering declines that require
serious conservation action, according to a comprehensive report
on the status of British mammals.

The report, from the Mammals Trust UK, which is funded by the
People's Trust for Endangered Species, identifies an assortment of
factors including climate change, the spread of infectious diseases,
agricultural and forestry practices, and not least, human activity, as
combining to place ever increasing pressure on already fragile wildlife
populations.

The result is that declines are accelerating in animals once considered
common, such as the hedgehog, as well as those which are already
scarce or localised, such as the Scottish wildcat.
..
The lengthening list of environmental problems is increasingly hitting
mammals, say the report's authors, David Macdonald and Dawn
Burnham from the Wildlife Conservation Research Unit at the
University of Oxford. "The roll call of environmental topicality seems
more strident in 2007 than ever before, and wild mammals are touched
by every topic on the list," they say.

"How are agri-environment schemes to deliver food, biodiversity and
rural livelihoods, how is society to balance its respect for individuals
and humaneness with its desire to use, manage and develop, how is
this nation to provide its evermore urban citizens with contact with
nature that is increasingly recognised as important for their well-being
and health?
...'
http://environment.independent.co.uk/nature/article3298381.ece

Go vegan.

On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 19:00:38 -0000, "pearl" 
wrote:

>"Malcolm"  wrote in message news:m4bkn3dr00s5egm8cvl3p6josbpm7j04eu@4ax.com...
>
>> Whilst most of us went off to have a good old knees up, some auld lang
>> syne and some real traditional values.
>
>Which undoubtably includes gorging on a "real traditional" meal
>of parts of dead animals - animals raised using many millions of
>hectares of what was once natural habitat, both UK and abroad.

>'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,
>50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet
>lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming.
>..'
>http://www.flex.com/~jai/articles/101.html
>
>Mr. CONservasionist.
>
>'British wildlife in steep decline as man-made activities take their toll
>
>By Michael McCarthy, Environment Editor
>Published: 01 January 2008
>
>Several of Britain's best-known animal species, ranging from the
>hedgehog to the harbour seal, are now suffering declines that require
>serious conservation action, according to a comprehensive report
>on the status of British mammals.
>
>The report, from the Mammals Trust UK, which is funded by the
>People's Trust for Endangered Species, identifies an assortment of
>factors including climate change, the spread of infectious diseases,
>agricultural and forestry practices, and not least, human activity, as
>combining to place ever increasing pressure on already fragile wildlife
>populations.
>
>The result is that declines are accelerating in animals once considered
>common, such as the hedgehog, as well as those which are already
>scarce or localised, such as the Scottish wildcat.
>..
>The lengthening list of environmental problems is increasingly hitting
>mammals, say the report's authors, David Macdonald and Dawn
>Burnham from the Wildlife Conservation Research Unit at the
>University of Oxford. "The roll call of environmental topicality seems
>more strident in 2007 than ever before, and wild mammals are touched
>by every topic on the list," they say.
>
>"How are agri-environment schemes to deliver food, biodiversity and
>rural livelihoods, how is society to balance its respect for individuals
>and humaneness with its desire to use, manage and develop, how is
>this nation to provide its evermore urban citizens with contact with
>nature that is increasingly recognised as important for their well-being
>and health?
>...'
>http://environment.independent.co.uk/nature/article3298381.ece
>
>Go vegan.


What I find so hard to believe is that some people just don't care! If
not for themselves you'd have thought their kids future would be of
some concern.

It says a lot for allowing just anybody to breed!







--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

"Adenoid Hynkel ."  wrote in message news:ch3ln3t5tv3shk6rjskq3r7fmb7ip02ufs@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 19:00:38 -0000, "pearl" 
> wrote:
>
> >"Malcolm"  wrote in message news:m4bkn3dr00s5egm8cvl3p6josbpm7j04eu@4ax.com...
> >
> >> Whilst most of us went off to have a good old knees up, some auld lang
> >> syne and some real traditional values.
> >
> >Which undoubtably includes gorging on a "real traditional" meal
> >of parts of dead animals - animals raised using many millions of
> >hectares of what was once natural habitat, both UK and abroad.
>
> >'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,
> >50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet
> >lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming.
> >..'
> >http://www.flex.com/~jai/articles/101.html
> >
> >Mr. CONservasionist.
> >
> >'British wildlife in steep decline as man-made activities take their toll
> >
> >By Michael McCarthy, Environment Editor
> >Published: 01 January 2008
> >
> >Several of Britain's best-known animal species, ranging from the
> >hedgehog to the harbour seal, are now suffering declines that require
> >serious conservation action, according to a comprehensive report
> >on the status of British mammals.
> >
> >The report, from the Mammals Trust UK, which is funded by the
> >People's Trust for Endangered Species, identifies an assortment of
> >factors including climate change, the spread of infectious diseases,
> >agricultural and forestry practices, and not least, human activity, as
> >combining to place ever increasing pressure on already fragile wildlife
> >populations.
> >
> >The result is that declines are accelerating in animals once considered
> >common, such as the hedgehog, as well as those which are already
> >scarce or localised, such as the Scottish wildcat.
> >..
> >The lengthening list of environmental problems is increasingly hitting
> >mammals, say the report's authors, David Macdonald and Dawn
> >Burnham from the Wildlife Conservation Research Unit at the
> >University of Oxford. "The roll call of environmental topicality seems
> >more strident in 2007 than ever before, and wild mammals are touched
> >by every topic on the list," they say.
> >
> >"How are agri-environment schemes to deliver food, biodiversity and
> >rural livelihoods, how is society to balance its respect for individuals
> >and humaneness with its desire to use, manage and develop, how is
> >this nation to provide its evermore urban citizens with contact with
> >nature that is increasingly recognised as important for their well-being
> >and health?
> >...'
> >http://environment.independent.co.uk/nature/article3298381.ece
> >
> >Go vegan.
>
>
> What I find so hard to believe is that some people just don't care! If
> not for themselves you'd have thought their kids future would be of
> some concern.

"The combination of fat with sugar or fat with salt seems to
have a very particular neurochemical effect on the brain,"
Ann Kelley, a professor at the University of Wisconsin
(search) who co-authored the unpublished study, said on
the Fox News Channel. "What that does is release certain
chemicals that are similar to drugs, like heroin and morphine."
 ..'
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,93031,00.html

'The Longest River: Denial

Denial is a hallmark of someone who is engaging in this
addiction pattern but has not accepted that his or her
behavior is out of control. This denial is a psychological
defense mechanism that enables a person to continue to
engage in a behavior in spite of relatively obvious negative
consequences on his or her life. It's a way to protect
oneself from seeing or feeling things that are unpleasant.

[..]  denial permits one to distort reality, a very powerful
psychological defense; it can have devastating consequences
on our lives, and the ability to disregard such negative
consequences while continuing the behavior is a hallmark of
denial.
...'
http://www.addictionrecov.org/paradigm/P_PR_SP00/cont_greenfield.htm

> It says a lot for allowing just anybody to breed!

Now, now.  :)


Wishing you a great year.

On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 19:55:23 -0000, "pearl" 
wrote:

>"Adenoid Hynkel ."  wrote in message news:ch3ln3t5tv3shk6rjskq3r7fmb7ip02ufs@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 19:00:38 -0000, "pearl" 
>> wrote:
>>
>> >"Malcolm"  wrote in message news:m4bkn3dr00s5egm8cvl3p6josbpm7j04eu@4ax.com...
>> >
>> >> Whilst most of us went off to have a good old knees up, some auld lang
>> >> syne and some real traditional values.
>> >
>> >Which undoubtably includes gorging on a "real traditional" meal
>> >of parts of dead animals - animals raised using many millions of
>> >hectares of what was once natural habitat, both UK and abroad.
>>
>> >'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,
>> >50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet
>> >lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming.
>> >..'
>> >http://www.flex.com/~jai/articles/101.html
>> >
>> >Mr. CONservasionist.
>> >
>> >'British wildlife in steep decline as man-made activities take their toll
>> >
>> >By Michael McCarthy, Environment Editor
>> >Published: 01 January 2008
>> >
>> >Several of Britain's best-known animal species, ranging from the
>> >hedgehog to the harbour seal, are now suffering declines that require
>> >serious conservation action, according to a comprehensive report
>> >on the status of British mammals.
>> >
>> >The report, from the Mammals Trust UK, which is funded by the
>> >People's Trust for Endangered Species, identifies an assortment of
>> >factors including climate change, the spread of infectious diseases,
>> >agricultural and forestry practices, and not least, human activity, as
>> >combining to place ever increasing pressure on already fragile wildlife
>> >populations.
>> >
>> >The result is that declines are accelerating in animals once considered
>> >common, such as the hedgehog, as well as those which are already
>> >scarce or localised, such as the Scottish wildcat.
>> >..
>> >The lengthening list of environmental problems is increasingly hitting
>> >mammals, say the report's authors, David Macdonald and Dawn
>> >Burnham from the Wildlife Conservation Research Unit at the
>> >University of Oxford. "The roll call of environmental topicality seems
>> >more strident in 2007 than ever before, and wild mammals are touched
>> >by every topic on the list," they say.
>> >
>> >"How are agri-environment schemes to deliver food, biodiversity and
>> >rural livelihoods, how is society to balance its respect for individuals
>> >and humaneness with its desire to use, manage and develop, how is
>> >this nation to provide its evermore urban citizens with contact with
>> >nature that is increasingly recognised as important for their well-being
>> >and health?
>> >...'
>> >http://environment.independent.co.uk/nature/article3298381.ece
>> >
>> >Go vegan.
>>
>>
>> What I find so hard to believe is that some people just don't care! If
>> not for themselves you'd have thought their kids future would be of
>> some concern.
>
>"The combination of fat with sugar or fat with salt seems to
>have a very particular neurochemical effect on the brain,"
>Ann Kelley, a professor at the University of Wisconsin
>(search) who co-authored the unpublished study, said on
>the Fox News Channel. "What that does is release certain
>chemicals that are similar to drugs, like heroin and morphine."
> ..'
>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,93031,00.html
>
>'The Longest River: Denial
>
>Denial is a hallmark of someone who is engaging in this
>addiction pattern but has not accepted that his or her
>behavior is out of control. This denial is a psychological
>defense mechanism that enables a person to continue to
>engage in a behavior in spite of relatively obvious negative
>consequences on his or her life. It's a way to protect
>oneself from seeing or feeling things that are unpleasant.
>
>[..]  denial permits one to distort reality, a very powerful
>psychological defense; it can have devastating consequences
>on our lives, and the ability to disregard such negative
>consequences while continuing the behavior is a hallmark of
>denial.
>...'
>http://www.addictionrecov.org/paradigm/P_PR_SP00/cont_greenfield.htm

I would go so far as to say that meat eating is even more addictive
than smoking which is a terrible indictment really!

>> It says a lot for allowing just anybody to breed!
>
>Now, now.  :)
>
>
>Wishing you a great year.

U2 may all your wishes come true.









--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

"pearl"  wrote in message 
news:fle2k2$n5l$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
> "Malcolm"  wrote in message 
> news:m4bkn3dr00s5egm8cvl3p6josbpm7j04eu@4ax.com...
>
>> Whilst most of us went off to have a good old knees up, some auld lang
>> syne and some real traditional values.
>
> Which undoubtably includes gorging on a "real traditional" meal
> of parts of dead animals - animals raised using many millions of
> hectares of what was once natural habitat, both UK and abroad.
>

too right, tear down the cities immediately and kick the inhabitants out to 
be hunter gatherers and fruitarians

should be a fun january

"Jim Webster"  wrote in message news:5tvmrlF1ei2c9U1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "pearl"  wrote in message
> news:fle2k2$n5l$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
> > "Malcolm"  wrote in message
> > news:m4bkn3dr00s5egm8cvl3p6josbpm7j04eu@4ax.com...
> >
> >> Whilst most of us went off to have a good old knees up, some auld lang
> >> syne and some real traditional values.
> >
> > Which undoubtably includes gorging on a "real traditional" meal
> > of parts of dead animals - animals raised using many millions of
> > hectares of what was once natural habitat, both UK and abroad.
> >
>
> too right, tear down the cities immediately and kick the inhabitants out to
> be hunter gatherers and fruitarians

Non sequitur.

> should be a fun january

Not for you.

On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 20:41:18 -0000, "Jim Webster"
 wrote:

>
>"pearl"  wrote in message 
>news:fle2k2$n5l$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
>> "Malcolm"  wrote in message 
>> news:m4bkn3dr00s5egm8cvl3p6josbpm7j04eu@4ax.com...
>>
>>> Whilst most of us went off to have a good old knees up, some auld lang
>>> syne and some real traditional values.
>>
>> Which undoubtably includes gorging on a "real traditional" meal
>> of parts of dead animals - animals raised using many millions of
>> hectares of what was once natural habitat, both UK and abroad.
>>
>
>too right, tear down the cities immediately and kick the inhabitants out to 
>be hunter gatherers and fruitarians
>
>should be a fun january 
>

Not for you Jumbo. Manual work was never your thing!









--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

In article <fle2k2$n5l$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
<URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> "Malcolm"  wrote in message news:m4bkn3dr00s5egm8cvl3p6josbpm7j04
> eu@4ax.com...
> 
> > Whilst most of us went off to have a good old knees up, some auld lang
> > syne and some real traditional values.
> 
> Which undoubtably includes gorging on a "real traditional" meal
> of parts of dead animals - animals raised using many millions of
> hectares of what was once natural habitat, both UK and abroad.

Well, parts of two, practically all of three.  Two of which raised
themselves on what is still natural habitat.

> 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,
> 50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet
> lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming.

Flower meadows only exist because of animal farming.

Many ancient woodlands exist because of hunting.  Many because of naval
requirements and most of the rest because -nothing- else will grow there.

Most heathlands only exist because of (ancient) animal farming.

Hedgerows only exist because of animal farming.

> Go vegan.

Oh, I have.  I always eat vegan as well as meat.

Happy New year,

-- 

>>   derek@farm-direct.co.uk
>>   http://www.farm-direct.co.uk/

"Adenoid Hynkel ."  wrote in message news:4lbln355kkbarmmb0j3h74a22f2toeqse1@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 19:55:23 -0000, "pearl" 
> wrote:
>
> >"Adenoid Hynkel ."  wrote in message news:ch3ln3t5tv3shk6rjskq3r7fmb7ip02ufs@4ax.com...
> >> On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 19:00:38 -0000, "pearl" 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >"Malcolm"  wrote in message news:m4bkn3dr00s5egm8cvl3p6josbpm7j04eu@4ax.com...
> >> >
> >> >> Whilst most of us went off to have a good old knees up, some auld lang
> >> >> syne and some real traditional values.
> >> >
> >> >Which undoubtably includes gorging on a "real traditional" meal
> >> >of parts of dead animals - animals raised using many millions of
> >> >hectares of what was once natural habitat, both UK and abroad.
> >>
> >> >'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,
> >> >50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet
> >> >lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming.
> >> >..'
> >> >http://www.flex.com/~jai/articles/101.html
> >> >
> >> >Mr. CONservasionist.
> >> >
> >> >'British wildlife in steep decline as man-made activities take their toll
> >> >
> >> >By Michael McCarthy, Environment Editor
> >> >Published: 01 January 2008
> >> >
> >> >Several of Britain's best-known animal species, ranging from the
> >> >hedgehog to the harbour seal, are now suffering declines that require
> >> >serious conservation action, according to a comprehensive report
> >> >on the status of British mammals.
> >> >
> >> >The report, from the Mammals Trust UK, which is funded by the
> >> >People's Trust for Endangered Species, identifies an assortment of
> >> >factors including climate change, the spread of infectious diseases,
> >> >agricultural and forestry practices, and not least, human activity, as
> >> >combining to place ever increasing pressure on already fragile wildlife
> >> >populations.
> >> >
> >> >The result is that declines are accelerating in animals once considered
> >> >common, such as the hedgehog, as well as those which are already
> >> >scarce or localised, such as the Scottish wildcat.
> >> >..
> >> >The lengthening list of environmental problems is increasingly hitting
> >> >mammals, say the report's authors, David Macdonald and Dawn
> >> >Burnham from the Wildlife Conservation Research Unit at the
> >> >University of Oxford. "The roll call of environmental topicality seems
> >> >more strident in 2007 than ever before, and wild mammals are touched
> >> >by every topic on the list," they say.
> >> >
> >> >"How are agri-environment schemes to deliver food, biodiversity and
> >> >rural livelihoods, how is society to balance its respect for individuals
> >> >and humaneness with its desire to use, manage and develop, how is
> >> >this nation to provide its evermore urban citizens with contact with
> >> >nature that is increasingly recognised as important for their well-being
> >> >and health?
> >> >...'
> >> >http://environment.independent.co.uk/nature/article3298381.ece
> >> >
> >> >Go vegan.
> >>
> >>
> >> What I find so hard to believe is that some people just don't care! If
> >> not for themselves you'd have thought their kids future would be of
> >> some concern.
> >
> >"The combination of fat with sugar or fat with salt seems to
> >have a very particular neurochemical effect on the brain,"
> >Ann Kelley, a professor at the University of Wisconsin
> >(search) who co-authored the unpublished study, said on
> >the Fox News Channel. "What that does is release certain
> >chemicals that are similar to drugs, like heroin and morphine."
> > ..'
> >http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,93031,00.html
> >
> >'The Longest River: Denial
> >
> >Denial is a hallmark of someone who is engaging in this
> >addiction pattern but has not accepted that his or her
> >behavior is out of control. This denial is a psychological
> >defense mechanism that enables a person to continue to
> >engage in a behavior in spite of relatively obvious negative
> >consequences on his or her life. It's a way to protect
> >oneself from seeing or feeling things that are unpleasant.
> >
> >[..]  denial permits one to distort reality, a very powerful
> >psychological defense; it can have devastating consequences
> >on our lives, and the ability to disregard such negative
> >consequences while continuing the behavior is a hallmark of
> >denial.
> >...'
> >http://www.addictionrecov.org/paradigm/P_PR_SP00/cont_greenfield.htm
>
> I would go so far as to say that meat eating is even more addictive
> than smoking which is a terrible indictment really!

The overall harm caused is certainly much worse.

> >> It says a lot for allowing just anybody to breed!
> >
> >Now, now.  :)
> >
> >
> >Wishing you a great year.
>
> U2 may all your wishes come true.

Thanks!  When they do, we'll all be happy.  :)

"Derek Moody"  wrote in message news:ant0121201cbBxcK@strongarm.dereks.pad...
> In article <fle2k2$n5l$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
> <URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> > "Malcolm"  wrote in message news:m4bkn3dr00s5egm8cvl3p6josbpm7j04
> > eu@4ax.com...
> >
> > > Whilst most of us went off to have a good old knees up, some auld lang
> > > syne and some real traditional values.
> >
> > Which undoubtably includes gorging on a "real traditional" meal
> > of parts of dead animals - animals raised using many millions of
> > hectares of what was once natural habitat, both UK and abroad.
>
> Well, parts of two, practically all of three.  Two of which raised
> themselves on what is still natural habitat.

But you seem to proud of that for some reason.  Why?

> > 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,
> > 50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet
> > lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming.
>
> Flower meadows only exist because of animal farming.

See above.

> Many ancient woodlands exist because of hunting.  Many because of naval
> requirements and most of the rest because -nothing- else will grow there.

Nonsense..

> Most heathlands only exist because of (ancient) animal farming.

Under natural conditions forest or woodland.

Heath is native above the potential natural treeline.

> Hedgerows only exist because of animal farming.

A mere crumbling skeleton of native British habitat.

> > Go vegan.
>
> Oh, I have.  I always eat vegan as well as meat.

Foolishness.

On 1 Jan, 12:06, Malcolm  wrote:






> Whilst most of us went off to have a good old knees up, some auld lang
> syne and some real traditional values.

What 'traditional values'?

Sitting around forcing yourself to get pissed, just to 'celebrate' the
fact that you are another year closer to death?

Jumping up at the chimes of some dodgy clock that is days out of time
according to 'traditional values' because they fucked up the calendar
a few centuries ago?

Grabbing strange peoples hands and singing wierd celtic songs in a non
celtic country?

Letting off fireworks you have not used on the traditional celebration
of the gunpowder plot?

Wandering around aimlessly with a chunk of inflammable black rock in
your hand and knocking on doors of sensible people who have been in
bed for 3 hours?

These are traditional values?

Thank fuck, we can rest quietly now for another 364 days until these
brain-dead nutters come out of the woodwork again.

On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 21:09:20 +0000, Derek Moody
 wrote:

>In article <fle2k2$n5l$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
><URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
>> "Malcolm"  wrote in message news:m4bkn3dr00s5egm8cvl3p6josbpm7j04
>> eu@4ax.com...
>> 
>> > Whilst most of us went off to have a good old knees up, some auld lang
>> > syne and some real traditional values.
>> 
>> Which undoubtably includes gorging on a "real traditional" meal
>> of parts of dead animals - animals raised using many millions of
>> hectares of what was once natural habitat, both UK and abroad.
>
>Well, parts of two, practically all of three.  Two of which raised
>themselves on what is still natural habitat.
>
>> 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,
>> 50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet
>> lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming.
>
>Flower meadows only exist because of animal farming.

>Many ancient woodlands exist because of hunting.  Many because of naval
>requirements and most of the rest because -nothing- else will grow there.

>Most heathlands only exist because of (ancient) animal farming.
>
>Hedgerows only exist because of animal farming.

Bullshit in the main and certainly irrelevant for today. We'll ensure
plenty of natural habitat, meadows, woodlands exist for natures sake.

>> Go vegan.
>
>Oh, I have.  I always eat vegan as well as meat.
>
>Happy New year,








--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

In article <fledd9$aor$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
<URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> "Derek Moody"  wrote in message news:ant0121201cbBxcK@stronga
> rm.dereks.pad...
> > In article <fle2k2$n5l$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
> > <URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:

> > > Which undoubtably includes gorging on a "real traditional" meal
> > > of parts of dead animals - animals raised using many millions of
> > > hectares of what was once natural habitat, both UK and abroad.
> >
> > Well, parts of two, practically all of three.  Two of which raised
> > themselves on what is still natural habitat.
> 
> But you seem to proud of that for some reason.  Why?

Pointing out the error in your calculation.  AfaIct fewer than 10 hectares,
not exclusively used.  

> 
> > > 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,
> > > 50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet
> > > lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming.
> >
> > Flower meadows only exist because of animal farming.
> 
> See above.

??? - meadows -by definition- only exist because of animal farming. 

> > Many ancient woodlands exist because of hunting.  Many because of naval
> > requirements and most of the rest because -nothing- else will grow there.
> 
> Nonsense..

..but true.

> > Most heathlands only exist because of (ancient) animal farming.
> 
> Under natural conditions forest or woodland.

The easiest to slash and burn in the neolithic.

> Heath is native above the potential natural treeline.
> 
> > Hedgerows only exist because of animal farming.
> 
> A mere crumbling skeleton of native British habitat.

Which only exists because of animal farming.

> > > Go vegan.
> >
> > Oh, I have.  I always eat vegan as well as meat.
> 
> Foolishness.

Make your mind up.  I thought you wanted me to include a vegan diet.

Cheerio,

-- 

>>   derek@farm-direct.co.uk
>>   http://www.farm-direct.co.uk/

On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 22:04:49 -0000, "pearl" 
wrote:

>"Derek Moody"  wrote in message news:ant0121201cbBxcK@strongarm.dereks.pad...
>> In article <fle2k2$n5l$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
>> <URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
>> > "Malcolm"  wrote in message news:m4bkn3dr00s5egm8cvl3p6josbpm7j04
>> > eu@4ax.com...
>> >
>> > > Whilst most of us went off to have a good old knees up, some auld lang
>> > > syne and some real traditional values.
>> >
>> > Which undoubtably includes gorging on a "real traditional" meal
>> > of parts of dead animals - animals raised using many millions of
>> > hectares of what was once natural habitat, both UK and abroad.
>>
>> Well, parts of two, practically all of three.  Two of which raised
>> themselves on what is still natural habitat.
>
>But you seem to proud of that for some reason.  Why?
>
>> > 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,
>> > 50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet
>> > lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming.
>>
>> Flower meadows only exist because of animal farming.
>
>See above.
>
>> Many ancient woodlands exist because of hunting.  Many because of naval
>> requirements and most of the rest because -nothing- else will grow there.
>
>Nonsense..
>
>> Most heathlands only exist because of (ancient) animal farming.
>
>Under natural conditions forest or woodland.
>
>Heath is native above the potential natural treeline.
>
>> Hedgerows only exist because of animal farming.
>
>A mere crumbling skeleton of native British habitat.

Crumbling due to bad and lazy farming practice. It seems farmers only
like doing good when forced!

>> > Go vegan.
>>
>> Oh, I have.  I always eat vegan as well as meat.
>
>Foolishness.

That's the meat coming out in it!









--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 22:34:55 +0000, Derek Moody
 wrote:

>In article <fledd9$aor$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
><URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
>> "Derek Moody"  wrote in message news:ant0121201cbBxcK@stronga
>> rm.dereks.pad...
>> > In article <fle2k2$n5l$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
>> > <URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
>
>> > > Which undoubtably includes gorging on a "real traditional" meal
>> > > of parts of dead animals - animals raised using many millions of
>> > > hectares of what was once natural habitat, both UK and abroad.
>> >
>> > Well, parts of two, practically all of three.  Two of which raised
>> > themselves on what is still natural habitat.
>> 
>> But you seem to proud of that for some reason.  Why?
>
>Pointing out the error in your calculation.  AfaIct fewer than 10 hectares,
>not exclusively used.  
>
>> 
>> > > 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,
>> > > 50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet
>> > > lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming.
>> >
>> > Flower meadows only exist because of animal farming.
>> 
>> See above.
>
>??? - meadows -by definition- only exist because of animal farming. 

Rubbish the original definition was "land covered in grass which is
mown for hay," 

>> > Many ancient woodlands exist because of hunting.  Many because of naval
>> > requirements and most of the rest because -nothing- else will grow there.
>> 
>> Nonsense..
>
>..but true.
>
>> > Most heathlands only exist because of (ancient) animal farming.
>> 
>> Under natural conditions forest or woodland.
>
>The easiest to slash and burn in the neolithic.
>
>> Heath is native above the potential natural treeline.
>> 
>> > Hedgerows only exist because of animal farming.
>> 
>> A mere crumbling skeleton of native British habitat.
>
>Which only exists because of animal farming.

They now don't exist because of farming!









--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

wrote in message 
news:c76f762d-4dc5-4917-8e32-f315c3e30b61@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On 1 Jan, 12:06, Malcolm  wrote:
> Thank fuck, we can rest quietly now for another 364 days until these
> brain-dead nutters come out of the woodwork again.

That should have read 365 days,2008 being a leap year and all that:-))

"Adenoid Hynkel ."  wrote in message news:4lbln355kkbarmmb0j3h74a22f2toeqse1@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 19:55:23 -0000, "pearl" 
> wrote:
..
> >"The combination of fat with sugar or fat with salt seems to
> >have a very particular neurochemical effect on the brain,"
> >Ann Kelley, a professor at the University of Wisconsin
> >(search) who co-authored the unpublished study, said on
> >the Fox News Channel. "What that does is release certain
> >chemicals that are similar to drugs, like heroin and morphine."
> > ..'
> >http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,93031,00.html
> >
> >'The Longest River: Denial
> >
> >Denial is a hallmark of someone who is engaging in this
> >addiction pattern but has not accepted that his or her
> >behavior is out of control. This denial is a psychological
> >defense mechanism that enables a person to continue to
> >engage in a behavior in spite of relatively obvious negative
> >consequences on his or her life. It's a way to protect
> >oneself from seeing or feeling things that are unpleasant.
> >
> >[..]  denial permits one to distort reality, a very powerful
> >psychological defense; it can have devastating consequences
> >on our lives, and the ability to disregard such negative
> >consequences while continuing the behavior is a hallmark of
> >denial.
> >...'
> >http://www.addictionrecov.org/paradigm/P_PR_SP00/cont_greenfield.htm
>
> I would go so far as to say that meat eating is even more addictive
> than smoking which is a terrible indictment really!

Just heard on BBC News -

'Wednesday January 02 2008 09:27 GMT

UK people 'addicted to fast food'

People in the UK are more addicted to fast food than those
in any other nation, a survey has found.

The worldwide survey found out who could not resist the
temptation to tuck into things like burgers and chips.

Nearly half the people in the UK said they wouldn't stop
eating fast food because they like the taste too much.

And Americans are nearly as keen on stuff like pizzas and
chicken wings as people in the UK - coming a close second
in the poll.
..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_7160000/newsid_7167400/7167452.stm

On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 12:22:16 -0000, "pearl" 
wrote:

>"Adenoid Hynkel ."  wrote in message news:4lbln355kkbarmmb0j3h74a22f2toeqse1@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 19:55:23 -0000, "pearl" 
>> wrote:
>..
>> >"The combination of fat with sugar or fat with salt seems to
>> >have a very particular neurochemical effect on the brain,"
>> >Ann Kelley, a professor at the University of Wisconsin
>> >(search) who co-authored the unpublished study, said on
>> >the Fox News Channel. "What that does is release certain
>> >chemicals that are similar to drugs, like heroin and morphine."
>> > ..'
>> >http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,93031,00.html
>> >
>> >'The Longest River: Denial
>> >
>> >Denial is a hallmark of someone who is engaging in this
>> >addiction pattern but has not accepted that his or her
>> >behavior is out of control. This denial is a psychological
>> >defense mechanism that enables a person to continue to
>> >engage in a behavior in spite of relatively obvious negative
>> >consequences on his or her life. It's a way to protect
>> >oneself from seeing or feeling things that are unpleasant.
>> >
>> >[..]  denial permits one to distort reality, a very powerful
>> >psychological defense; it can have devastating consequences
>> >on our lives, and the ability to disregard such negative
>> >consequences while continuing the behavior is a hallmark of
>> >denial.
>> >...'
>> >http://www.addictionrecov.org/paradigm/P_PR_SP00/cont_greenfield.htm
>>
>> I would go so far as to say that meat eating is even more addictive
>> than smoking which is a terrible indictment really!
>
>Just heard on BBC News -
>
>'Wednesday January 02 2008 09:27 GMT
>
>UK people 'addicted to fast food'
>
>People in the UK are more addicted to fast food than those
>in any other nation, a survey has found.
>
>The worldwide survey found out who could not resist the
>temptation to tuck into things like burgers and chips.
>
>Nearly half the people in the UK said they wouldn't stop
>eating fast food because they like the taste too much.
>
>And Americans are nearly as keen on stuff like pizzas and
>chicken wings as people in the UK - coming a close second
>in the poll.
>..
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_7160000/newsid_7167400/7167452.stm

Oh well another kick in the nuts for the superior British idea! Is
Britain worthy of note in any field these days?

I must confess on my extensive travels throughout Europe home grown
produce is abundant, and every market is a farmers market even in the
smallest villages.

The crazy thing about the sorry state of the UK is, it's not like we
never saw it coming!









--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

"Derek Moody"  wrote in message news:ant012255d07BxcK@strongarm.dereks.pad...
> In article <fledd9$aor$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
> <URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> > "Derek Moody"  wrote in message news:ant0121201cbBxcK@stronga
> > rm.dereks.pad...
> > > In article <fle2k2$n5l$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
> > > <URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
>
> > > > Which undoubtably includes gorging on a "real traditional" meal
> > > > of parts of dead animals - animals raised using many millions of
> > > > hectares of what was once natural habitat, both UK and abroad.
> > >
> > > Well, parts of two, practically all of three.  Two of which raised
> > > themselves on what is still natural habitat.
> >
> > But you seem to be proud of that for some reason.  Why?
>
> Pointing out the error in your calculation.  AfaIct fewer than 10 hectares,
> not exclusively used.

And how many meat eaters are there in the UK?

> > > > 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,
> > > > 50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet
> > > > lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming.
> > >
> > > Flower meadows only exist because of animal farming.
> >
> > See above.
>
> ???

'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,...'

> - meadows -by definition- only exist because of animal farming.

Seems you're forgetting something...

'Abstract

Secondary succession is threatening many species of open habitats
in north-western Europe. This problem has caused an intense debate
over whether the present-natural vegetation in this region would be
closed forest or more open vegetation. Native large herbivores have
been proposed as the key agents creating such open vegetation.
Here I address this question by reviewing the palaeoecological
evidence regarding vegetation openness in past oceanic interglacials
and the pre-agricultural Holocene, i.e. before the onset of strong
human impact. I conclude that closed forest would predominate, but
include localized longer-lasting openings. Further, open vegetation
would be frequent on floodplains, infertile soils, chalklands, and in
continental and submeditteranean areas. Large herbivores and fire
emerge as likely potential key factors in creating open vegetation in
north-western Europe. Fire would probably also be important in the
maintenance of light-demanding or short-statured woody species
within closed upland forests.
..'
http://tinyurl.com/2cw645

> > > Many ancient woodlands exist because of hunting.  Many because of naval
> > > requirements and most of the rest because -nothing- else will grow there.
> >
> > Nonsense..
>
> ..but true.

Ancient woodland was cleared to graze animals, and
in recent times, since 1945, 50% of what remained.

> > > Most heathlands only exist because of (ancient) animal farming.
> >
> > Under natural conditions forest or woodland.
>
> The easiest to slash and burn in the neolithic.

'Sometimes the woodland regenerated in the new clearing,
sometimes the pressure of grazing livestock prevented this.
..
It is very likely that large areas elsewhere in Britain were also
clear of trees. The domesticated animals of Neolithic men
included cattle, sheep, goats, pigs ..
..'
http://tinyurl.com/236sac

> > Heath is native above the potential natural treeline.
> >
> > > Hedgerows only exist because of animal farming.
> >
> > A mere crumbling skeleton of native British habitat.
>
> Which only exists because of animal farming.

No.  Which would regenerate without animal farming.

> > > > Go vegan.
> > >
> > > Oh, I have.  I always eat vegan as well as meat.
> >
> > Foolishness.
>
> Make your mind up.  I thought you wanted me to include a vegan diet.

Everyone knows what is meant by "go vegan", moody.

Adenoid Hynkel . wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 22:34:55 +0000, Derek Moody
>  wrote:
>

>> ??? - meadows -by definition- only exist because of animal farming. 
> 
> Rubbish the original definition was "land covered in grass which is
> mown for hay," 


What do you think the hay is used for?  Weetabix?

-- 
Jette Goldie
jette@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://wolfette.livejournal.com/
("reply to" is spamblocked - use the email addy in sig)

Adenoid Hynkel . wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 21:09:20 +0000, Derek Moody
>  wrote:
> 
>> In article <fle2k2$n5l$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
>> <URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
>>> "Malcolm"  wrote in message news:m4bkn3dr00s5egm8cvl3p6josbpm7j04
>>> eu@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>> Whilst most of us went off to have a good old knees up, some auld lang
>>>> syne and some real traditional values.
>>> Which undoubtably includes gorging on a "real traditional" meal
>>> of parts of dead animals - animals raised using many millions of
>>> hectares of what was once natural habitat, both UK and abroad.
>> Well, parts of two, practically all of three.  Two of which raised
>> themselves on what is still natural habitat.
>>
>>> 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,
>>> 50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet
>>> lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming.
>> Flower meadows only exist because of animal farming.
> 
>> Many ancient woodlands exist because of hunting.  Many because of naval
>> requirements and most of the rest because -nothing- else will grow there.
> 
>> Most heathlands only exist because of (ancient) animal farming.
>>
>> Hedgerows only exist because of animal farming.
> 
> Bullshit in the main and certainly irrelevant for today. We'll ensure
> plenty of natural habitat, meadows, woodlands exist for natures sake.
> 
>
There are  no such thing as "natural" habitats left in the British 
Isles, unless it's on a little island where man has never lived.



-- 
Jette Goldie
jette@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://wolfette.livejournal.com/
("reply to" is spamblocked - use the email addy in sig)

Jette wrote:
> There are  no such thing as "natural" habitats left in the British
> Isles, unless it's on a little island where man has never lived.

And there are probably none of those that he has not influenced - used for 
grazing, used for industry - limekilns etc.
And what is this artificial status quo that is deemed to be Natural ? Nature 
has been changing the environment and the ecology for over 55 million years.
There is no such thing as a static habitat. In the BI the changes since the 
last Ice Age have been remarkably dramatic by her hand alone.

-- 

regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment,  Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk

On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 14:26:03 GMT, Jette 
wrote:

>Adenoid Hynkel . wrote:
>> On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 21:09:20 +0000, Derek Moody
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> In article <fle2k2$n5l$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
>>> <URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
>>>> "Malcolm"  wrote in message news:m4bkn3dr00s5egm8cvl3p6josbpm7j04
>>>> eu@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>>> Whilst most of us went off to have a good old knees up, some auld lang
>>>>> syne and some real traditional values.
>>>> Which undoubtably includes gorging on a "real traditional" meal
>>>> of parts of dead animals - animals raised using many millions of
>>>> hectares of what was once natural habitat, both UK and abroad.
>>> Well, parts of two, practically all of three.  Two of which raised
>>> themselves on what is still natural habitat.
>>>
>>>> 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,
>>>> 50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet
>>>> lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming.
>>> Flower meadows only exist because of animal farming.
>> 
>>> Many ancient woodlands exist because of hunting.  Many because of naval
>>> requirements and most of the rest because -nothing- else will grow there.
>> 
>>> Most heathlands only exist because of (ancient) animal farming.
>>>
>>> Hedgerows only exist because of animal farming.
>> 
>> Bullshit in the main and certainly irrelevant for today. We'll ensure
>> plenty of natural habitat, meadows, woodlands exist for natures sake.
>> 
>>
>There are  no such thing as "natural" habitats left in the British 
>Isles, unless it's on a little island where man has never lived.

My woodland is perfectly natural. My meadows are perfectly natural. My
hedges are perfectly natural. Apart from a trim here and there, a
little coppicing. Nature can live as it intended. What it was ten
years ago, or ten decades is of little point!








--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

On Wed, 02 Jan 2008 14:27:43 GMT, Jette 
wrote:

>Adenoid Hynkel . wrote:
>> On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 22:34:55 +0000, Derek Moody
>>  wrote:
>>
>
>>> ??? - meadows -by definition- only exist because of animal farming. 
>> 
>> Rubbish the original definition was "land covered in grass which is
>> mown for hay," 
>
>
>What do you think the hay is used for?  Weetabix?

You're sort of missing the point, but that could be just because you
have snipped all context to the post and no one has a clue what you're
waffling on about.

Try again.







--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 15:39:42 -0000, "Jill" 
wrote:

>Jette wrote:
>> There are  no such thing as "natural" habitats left in the British
>> Isles, unless it's on a little island where man has never lived.
>
>And there are probably none of those that he has not influenced - used for 
>grazing, used for industry - limekilns etc.
>And what is this artificial status quo that is deemed to be Natural ? Nature 
>has been changing the environment and the ecology for over 55 million years.
>There is no such thing as a static habitat.

Why do you weird people always go for extremes of definition. You're
getting as bad as Ogilvie the pedant! So much for brains.

Lets presume for the hereinafter that natural means
"in a state of nature; uncultivated, as land"

Whether that natural state is achieved today or a million years ago is
irrelevant.

Sheesh. It's getting like spoon feeding hedgehogs here!









--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

Adenoid Hynkel            .  wrote:

> My woodland is perfectly natural.

Extremely unlikely there's no "natural" woodland let in the UK.

> My meadows are perfectly natural.

No meadow is natural. Scrubland is natural.

> My hedges are perfectly natural.

No hedge is natural.

I like the way idiots like you think you know what is 'natural' or not
yet cannot tell man made from natural.

On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 16:51:57 +0000, %steve%@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth)
wrote:

>Adenoid Hynkel            .  wrote:
>
>> My woodland is perfectly natural.
>
>Extremely unlikely there's no "natural" woodland let in the UK.
>
>> My meadows are perfectly natural.
>
>No meadow is natural. Scrubland is natural.
>
>> My hedges are perfectly natural.
>
>No hedge is natural.
>
>I like the way idiots like you think you know what is 'natural' or not
>yet cannot tell man made from natural.

You're a plonker and boy does it show.

I see pedantry is contagious. I suppose at least it means you can
learn and evolution may be kind to you, or you could just end up like
Ogilvie!











--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

Adenoid Hynkel            .  wrote:

> Lets presume for the hereinafter that natural means
> "in a state of nature; uncultivated, as land"

OK, so the woodland, meadow and hedges you referred to earlier aren't
even 'natural' by your own definition.

Adenoid Hynkel            .  wrote:

> I see pedantry is contagious.

If you had admitted you were wrong or indeed had you remained silent you
wouldn't have looked quite as ignorant an ass as you are.

On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 17:36:16 +0000, %steve%@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth)
wrote:

>Adenoid Hynkel            .  wrote:
>
>> Lets presume for the hereinafter that natural means
>> "in a state of nature; uncultivated, as land"
>
>OK, so the woodland, meadow and hedges you referred to earlier aren't
>even 'natural' by your own definition.

Mine are!









--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 17:42:00 +0000, %steve%@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth)
wrote:

>Adenoid Hynkel            .  wrote:
>
>> I see pedantry is contagious.
>
>If you had admitted you were wrong or indeed had you remained silent you
>wouldn't have looked quite as ignorant an ass as you are.

There you go. Sieg Heil!









--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

Adenoid Hynkel            .  wrote:

> On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 17:36:16 +0000, %steve%@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth)
> wrote:
> 
> >Adenoid Hynkel            .  wrote:
> >
> >> Lets presume for the hereinafter that natural means
> >> "in a state of nature; uncultivated, as land"
> >
> >OK, so the woodland, meadow and hedges you referred to earlier aren't
> >even 'natural' by your own definition.
> 
> Mine are!

Hence proving you really are the moron you appear to be.

On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 18:09:04 +0000, %steve%@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth)
wrote:

>Adenoid Hynkel            .  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 17:36:16 +0000, %steve%@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth)
>> wrote:
>> 
>> >Adenoid Hynkel            .  wrote:
>> >
>> >> Lets presume for the hereinafter that natural means
>> >> "in a state of nature; uncultivated, as land"
>> >
>> >OK, so the woodland, meadow and hedges you referred to earlier aren't
>> >even 'natural' by your own definition.
>> 
>> Mine are!
>
>Hence proving you really are the moron you appear to be.

Why is leaving my own land to it's own natural devices, apart from
minor weeding/pruning/coppicing/cutting being a moron? I'd have
thought you should be pleased that it is quite possible to live side
by side with nature without destroying it! I fear it's just your
ignorance and pedantry showing through however.

That's ok. You never were the brightest spark in the box.









--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

In article <flg3m0$fjj$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
<URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> "Derek Moody"  wrote in message news:ant012255d07BxcK@stronga
> rm.dereks.pad...
> > In article <fledd9$aor$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
> > <URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> > > "Derek Moody"  wrote in message news:ant0121201cbBxcK@str
> onga
> > > rm.dereks.pad...
> > > > In article <fle2k2$n5l$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
> > > > <URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> >
> > > > > Which undoubtably includes gorging on a "real traditional" meal
> > > > > of parts of dead animals - animals raised using many millions of
> > > > > hectares of what was once natural habitat, both UK and abroad.
> > > >
> > > > Well, parts of two, practically all of three.  Two of which raised
> > > > themselves on what is still natural habitat.
> > >
> > > But you seem to be proud of that for some reason.  Why?
> >
> > Pointing out the error in your calculation.  AfaIct fewer than 10 hectares,
> > not exclusively used.
> 
> And how many meat eaters are there in the UK?

No idea, lots.  Review the last three words.

> > > > > 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,
> > > > > 50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet
> > > > > lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming.
> > > >
> > > > Flower meadows only exist because of animal farming.
> > >
> > > See above.
> >
> > ???
> 
> 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,...'
> 
> > - meadows -by definition- only exist because of animal farming.
> 
> Seems you're forgetting something...
> 
> 'Abstract

<cut>

Lotus. Make a new Year resolution to forgo cut and paste blanket posting eh?

Open vegetation is not meadow.

Meadow is grassland used to provide forage for domestic animals.

> > > > Many ancient woodlands exist because of hunting.  Many because of naval
> > > > requirements and most of the rest because -nothing- else will grow there.
> > >
> > > Nonsense..
> >
> > ..but true.
> 
> Ancient woodland was cleared to graze animals, and
> in recent times, since 1945, 50% of what remained.

Woodlands are retained as covert, timber resource and by default.

> > > > Most heathlands only exist because of (ancient) animal farming.
> > >
> > > Under natural conditions forest or woodland.
> >
> > The easiest to slash and burn in the neolithic.
> 
> 'Sometimes the woodland regenerated in the new clearing,
> sometimes the pressure of grazing livestock prevented this.
> ..
> It is very likely that large areas elsewhere in Britain were also
> clear of trees. The domesticated animals of Neolithic men
> included cattle, sheep, goats, pigs ..

WHY bother cut-and pasting screeds of superfluous verbiage if you're only
going to agree with me?

> > > > Hedgerows only exist because of animal farming.
> > >
> > > A mere crumbling skeleton of native British habitat.
> >
> > Which only exists because of animal farming.
> 
> No.  Which would regenerate without animal farming.

Irrelevant.  They would not be there without animal farming as if there were
no animals that might stray the land under the hedges would be cultivated.

> > > > > Go vegan.
> > > >
> > > > Oh, I have.  I always eat vegan as well as meat.
> > >
> > > Foolishness.
> >
> > Make your mind up.  I thought you wanted me to include a vegan diet.
> 
> Everyone knows what is meant by "go vegan", moody.

It means I eat vegetables.

Cheerio,

-- 

>>   derek@farm-direct.co.uk
>>   http://www.farm-direct.co.uk/

On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 19:37:17 +0000, Derek Moody
 wrote:

>In article <flg3m0$fjj$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
><URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
>> "Derek Moody"  wrote in message news:ant012255d07BxcK@stronga
>> rm.dereks.pad...
>> > In article <fledd9$aor$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
>> > <URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
>> > > "Derek Moody"  wrote in message news:ant0121201cbBxcK@str
>> onga
>> > > rm.dereks.pad...
>> > > > In article <fle2k2$n5l$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
>> > > > <URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
>> >
>> > > > > Which undoubtably includes gorging on a "real traditional" meal
>> > > > > of parts of dead animals - animals raised using many millions of
>> > > > > hectares of what was once natural habitat, both UK and abroad.
>> > > >
>> > > > Well, parts of two, practically all of three.  Two of which raised
>> > > > themselves on what is still natural habitat.
>> > >
>> > > But you seem to be proud of that for some reason.  Why?
>> >
>> > Pointing out the error in your calculation.  AfaIct fewer than 10 hectares,
>> > not exclusively used.
>> 
>> And how many meat eaters are there in the UK?
>
>No idea, lots.  Review the last three words.
>
>> > > > > 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,
>> > > > > 50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet
>> > > > > lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming.
>> > > >
>> > > > Flower meadows only exist because of animal farming.
>> > >
>> > > See above.
>> >
>> > ???
>> 
>> 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,...'
>> 
>> > - meadows -by definition- only exist because of animal farming.
>> 
>> Seems you're forgetting something...
>> 
>> 'Abstract
>
><cut>
>
>Lotus. Make a new Year resolution to forgo cut and paste blanket posting eh?
>
>Open vegetation is not meadow.
>
>Meadow is grassland used to provide forage for domestic animals.

Not any more it isn't.  The fact it provides food to domestic animals
is a by product of modern meadow maintained for wildlife and habitat.

>> > > > Many ancient woodlands exist because of hunting.  Many because of naval
>> > > > requirements and most of the rest because -nothing- else will grow there.
>> > >
>> > > Nonsense..
>> >
>> > ..but true.
>> 
>> Ancient woodland was cleared to graze animals, and
>> in recent times, since 1945, 50% of what remained.
>
>Woodlands are retained as covert, timber resource and by default.

Bollocks. Woodland is maintained for wildlife and habitat unless you
are a pro hunt nut!

<snip the rantings of a gnome angler>









--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

"Derek Moody"  wrote in message news:ant021917313BxcK@strongarm.dereks.pad...
> In article <flg3m0$fjj$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
> <URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> > "Derek Moody"  wrote in message news:ant012255d07BxcK@stronga
> > rm.dereks.pad...
> > > In article <fledd9$aor$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
> > > <URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> > > > "Derek Moody"  wrote in message news:ant0121201cbBxcK@str
> > onga
> > > > rm.dereks.pad...
> > > > > In article <fle2k2$n5l$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
> > > > > <URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > Which undoubtably includes gorging on a "real traditional" meal
> > > > > > of parts of dead animals - animals raised using many millions of
> > > > > > hectares of what was once natural habitat, both UK and abroad.
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, parts of two, practically all of three.  Two of which raised
> > > > > themselves on what is still natural habitat.
> > > >
> > > > But you seem to be proud of that for some reason.  Why?
> > >
> > > Pointing out the error in your calculation.  AfaIct fewer than 10 hectares,
> > > not exclusively used.
> >
> > And how many meat eaters are there in the UK?
>
> No idea, lots.  Review the last three words.

Tens of millions.

> > > > > > 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,
> > > > > > 50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet
> > > > > > lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming.
> > > > >
> > > > > Flower meadows only exist because of animal farming.
> > > >
> > > > See above.
> > >
> > > ???
> >
> > 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,...'
> >
> > > - meadows -by definition- only exist because of animal farming.
> >
> > Seems you're forgetting something...
> >
> > 'Abstract
>
> <cut>
>
> Lotus. Make a new Year resolution to forgo cut and paste blanket posting eh?
>
> Open vegetation is not meadow.
>
> Meadow is grassland used to provide forage for domestic animals.

'mead·ow (med'o)
n.
A tract of grassland, either in its natural state or used as
pasture or for growing hay.
..
A meadow is a habitat of rolling or flat terrain where grasses
predominate. Typically, what is called a meadow has more
biodiversity than a grassland as the former contains not only
grasses but a significant variety of annual, biennial and
perennial plants.

Transitional meadows

A transitional meadow occurs when a field, pasture, farmland,
or other cleared land is no longer farmed or heavily grazed
and starts to overgrow. However meadow conditions do not
persist in the long term, because the early colonizers will be
shaded out when woody plants become well-established.
..
http://www.answers.com/meadow&r=67

> > > > > Many ancient woodlands exist because of hunting.  Many because of naval
> > > > > requirements and most of the rest because -nothing- else will grow there.
> > > >
> > > > Nonsense..
> > >
> > > ..but true.
> >
> > Ancient woodland was cleared to graze animals, and
> > in recent times, since 1945, 50% of what remained.
>
> Woodlands are retained as covert, timber resource and by default.

Ancient woodland was cleared to graze animals, and
in recent times, since 1945, 50% of what remained.

> > > > > Most heathlands only exist because of (ancient) animal farming.
> > > >
> > > > Under natural conditions forest or woodland.
> > >
> > > The easiest to slash and burn in the neolithic.
> >
> > 'Sometimes the woodland regenerated in the new clearing,
> > sometimes the pressure of grazing livestock prevented this.
> > ..
> > It is very likely that large areas elsewhere in Britain were also
> > clear of trees. The domesticated animals of Neolithic men
> > included cattle, sheep, goats, pigs ..
>
> WHY bother cut-and pasting screeds of superfluous verbiage if you're only
> going to agree with me?

WHY not just concede that your addiction to animal fat is the
#1 cause of destruction of natural habitat and native species?

> > > > > Hedgerows only exist because of animal farming.
> > > >
> > > > A mere crumbling skeleton of native British habitat.
> > >
> > > Which only exists because of animal farming.
> >
> > No.  Which would regenerate without animal farming.
>
> Irrelevant.  They would not be there without animal farming as if there were
> no animals that might stray the land under the hedges would be cultivated.

Without animal farming there'd be a lot more than just hedgerows.

> > > > > > Go vegan.
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, I have.  I always eat vegan as well as meat.
> > > >
> > > > Foolishness.
> > >
> > > Make your mind up.  I thought you wanted me to include a vegan diet.
> >
> > Everyone knows what is meant by "go vegan", moody.
>
> It means I eat vegetables.

It means that you would eat no products derived from animals.

>> Thank fuck, we can rest quietly now for another 364 days until these
>> brain-dead nutters come out of the woodwork again.
>
> That should have read 365 days,2008 being a leap year and all that:-))


Except Radio One and the rest of the imbecile cast will be yelling the scum 
into a state of frenzy for valentines day, the whole summer, Hallow'een, 
bonfire night, every bank holiday and every other "occasion" they can think 
of.  Oh good.  The fun just goes on and on for ever.
>

In article <flguiv$jj$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
<URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> "Derek Moody"  wrote in message news:ant021917313BxcK@stronga
> rm.dereks.pad...

> > In article <flg3m0$fjj$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
> > <URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> > > "Derek Moody"  wrote in message news:ant012255d07BxcK@str
> onga
> > > rm.dereks.pad...
> > > And how many meat eaters are there in the UK?
> >
> > No idea, lots.  Review the last three words.
> 
> Tens of millions.

Vastly more than that. Your figure would barely cover the human population.

> > > > > > > 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,
> > > > > > > 50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet
> > > > > > > lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Flower meadows only exist because of animal farming.
> > > > >
> > > > > See above.
> > > >
> > > > ???
> > >
> > > 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,...'
> > >
> > > > - meadows -by definition- only exist because of animal farming.

> > Meadow is grassland used to provide forage for domestic animals.
> 
> 'mead·ow (med'o)
> n.
> A tract of grassland, either in its natural state or used as
> pasture or for growing hay.

And hay is forage for domestic animals.  Farmers make meadows.  Grassland in
its natural state (in the British Isles) proceeds to climax.  Without
farmers meadows vanish in a couple of seasons.

<Irrelevant insertions snipped>

> > > > > > Many ancient woodlands exist because of hunting.  Many because of naval
> > > > > > requirements and most of the rest because -nothing- else will grow there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nonsense..
> > > >
> > > > ..but true.
> > >
> > > Ancient woodland was cleared to graze animals, and
> > > in recent times, since 1945, 50% of what remained.
> >
> > Woodlands are retained as covert, timber resource and by default.
> 
> Ancient woodland was cleared to graze animals, and
> in recent times, since 1945, 50% of what remained.

Stop repeating yourself.  It doesn't matter why the stuff that has long gone
went, or how it went.  You are complaining about recent loss of 'ancient'
woodland (whilst wooded land overall has been increasing slightly.)
Woodland that had a use, a reason for its preservation, was retained.  One
of the classic uses is as covert.  If you want covert to be retained you had
better begin campaigning to reinstate hunting with dogs.

> > > > > > Most heathlands only exist because of (ancient) animal farming.
> > > > >
> > > > > Under natural conditions forest or woodland.
> > > >
> > > > The easiest to slash and burn in the neolithic.
> > >
> > > 'Sometimes the woodland regenerated in the new clearing,
> > > sometimes the pressure of grazing livestock prevented this.
> > > ..
> > > It is very likely that large areas elsewhere in Britain were also
> > > clear of trees. The domesticated animals of Neolithic men
> > > included cattle, sheep, goats, pigs ..
> >
> > WHY bother cut-and pasting screeds of superfluous verbiage if you're only
> > going to agree with me?
> 
> WHY not just concede that your addiction to animal fat is the
> #1 cause of destruction of natural habitat and native species?

You were complaining about the destruction by farmers of that which farmers
had themselves made.  The reason it happens is that changes in legislation,
world trading and customer preference oblige the farmers to change.  

You seem, now, to object to the farmers having made those things in the
first place.  Seeing as they are unmaking them I would expect you to
applaud.

> > > > > > Hedgerows only exist because of animal farming.
> > > > >
> > > > > A mere crumbling skeleton of native British habitat.
> > > >
> > > > Which only exists because of animal farming.
> > >
> > > No.  Which would regenerate without animal farming.
> >
> > Irrelevant.  They would not be there without animal farming as if there were
> > no animals that might stray the land under the hedges would be cultivated.
> 
> Without animal farming there'd be a lot more than just hedgerows.

Without animal farming there'd be no hedgerows.

> > > > > > > Go vegan.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oh, I have.  I always eat vegan as well as meat.
> > > > >
> > > > > Foolishness.
> > > >
> > > > Make your mind up.  I thought you wanted me to include a vegan diet.
> > >
> > > Everyone knows what is meant by "go vegan", moody.
> >
> > It means I eat vegetables.
> 
> It means that you would eat no products derived from animals.

Yes.  I did that at lunch on Thursday.

Cheerio,

-- 

>>   derek@farm-direct.co.uk
>>   http://www.farm-direct.co.uk/

Mess with your own crosspost, timewaster, not followups.

"Derek Moody" <derek@farm-direct.co.uk,uk.environment.conservation> wrote in message news:ant022226fc4BxcK@strongarm.dereks.pad...
> In article <flguiv$jj$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
> <URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> > "Derek Moody"  wrote in message news:ant021917313BxcK@stronga
> > rm.dereks.pad...
>
> > > In article <flg3m0$fjj$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
> > > <URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> > > > "Derek Moody"  wrote in message news:ant012255d07BxcK@str
> > onga
> > > > rm.dereks.pad...
> > > > And how many meat eaters are there in the UK?
> > >
> > > No idea, lots.  Review the last three words.
> >
> > Tens of millions.
>
> Vastly more than that. Your figure would barely cover the human population.

Vastly more than tens of millions of meat eaters in the UK, moody?

What on earth are you babbling on about now?  Are you drunk?

> > > > > > > > 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,
> > > > > > > > 50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet
> > > > > > > > lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Flower meadows only exist because of animal farming.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > See above.
> > > > >
> > > > > ???
> > > >
> > > > 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,...'
> > > >
> > > > > - meadows -by definition- only exist because of animal farming.
>
> > > Meadow is grassland used to provide forage for domestic animals.
> >
> > 'mead·ow (med'o)
> > n.
> > A tract of grassland, either in its natural state or used as
> > pasture or for growing hay.
>
> And hay is forage for domestic animals.  Farmers make meadows.  Grassland in
> its natural state (in the British Isles) proceeds to climax.  Without
> farmers meadows vanish in a couple of seasons.

Again:

'Abstract

Secondary succession is threatening many species of open habitats
in north-western Europe. This problem has caused an intense debate
over whether the present-natural vegetation in this region would be
closed forest or more open vegetation. Native large herbivores have
been proposed as the key agents creating such open vegetation.
Here I address this question by reviewing the palaeoecological
evidence regarding vegetation openness in past oceanic interglacials
and the pre-agricultural Holocene, i.e. before the onset of strong
human impact. I conclude that closed forest would predominate, but
include localized longer-lasting openings. Further, open vegetation
would be frequent on floodplains, infertile soils, chalklands, and in
continental and submeditteranean areas. Large herbivores and fire
emerge as likely potential key factors in creating open vegetation in
north-western Europe. Fire would probably also be important in the
maintenance of light-demanding or short-statured woody species
within closed upland forests.
..'
http://tinyurl.com/2cw645

> > > > > > > Many ancient woodlands exist because of hunting.  Many because of naval
> > > > > > > requirements and most of the rest because -nothing- else will grow there.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nonsense..
> > > > >
> > > > > ..but true.
> > > >
> > > > Ancient woodland was cleared to graze animals, and
> > > > in recent times, since 1945, 50% of what remained.
> > >
> > > Woodlands are retained as covert, timber resource and by default.
> >
> > Ancient woodland was cleared to graze animals, and
> > in recent times, since 1945, 50% of what remained.
>
> Stop repeating yourself.  It doesn't matter why the stuff that has long gone
> went, or how it went.  You are complaining about recent loss of 'ancient'
> woodland (whilst wooded land overall has been increasing slightly.)

Ancient woodland was cleared to graze animals, and in recent
times, since 1945, 50% of what remained - to raise 'livestock'.

> > > > > > > Most heathlands only exist because of (ancient) animal farming.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Under natural conditions forest or woodland.
> > > > >
> > > > > The easiest to slash and burn in the neolithic.
> > > >
> > > > 'Sometimes the woodland regenerated in the new clearing,
> > > > sometimes the pressure of grazing livestock prevented this.
> > > > ..
> > > > It is very likely that large areas elsewhere in Britain were also
> > > > clear of trees. The domesticated animals of Neolithic men
> > > > included cattle, sheep, goats, pigs ..
> > >
> > > WHY bother cut-and pasting screeds of superfluous verbiage if you're only
> > > going to agree with me?
> >
> > WHY not just concede that your addiction to animal fat is the
> > #1 cause of destruction of natural habitat and native species?
>
> You were complaining about the destruction by farmers of

Habitat for native wild species, in whatever form it existed.

> > > > > > > Hedgerows only exist because of animal farming.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A mere crumbling skeleton of native British habitat.
> > > > >
> > > > > Which only exists because of animal farming.
> > > >
> > > > No.  Which would regenerate without animal farming.
> > >
> > > Irrelevant.  They would not be there without animal farming as if there were
> > > no animals that might stray the land under the hedges would be cultivated.
> >
> > Without animal farming there'd be a lot more than just hedgerows.
>
> Without animal farming there'd be no hedgerows.

Without animal farming there'd be a lot more than just hedgerows.

> > > > > > > > Go vegan.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oh, I have.  I always eat vegan as well as meat.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Foolishness.
> > > > >
> > > > > Make your mind up.  I thought you wanted me to include a vegan diet.
> > > >
> > > > Everyone knows what is meant by "go vegan", moody.
> > >
> > > It means I eat vegetables.
> >
> > It means that you would eat no products derived from animals.
>
> Yes.  I did that at lunch on Thursday.

Well done!

In article <flh9gi$kmb$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
<URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:

> > > > > And how many meat eaters are there in the UK?
> > > >
> > > > No idea, lots.  Review the last three words.
> > >
> > > Tens of millions.
> >
> > Vastly more than that. Your figure would barely cover the human population.
> 
> Vastly more than tens of millions of meat eaters in the UK, moody?

Oh yes. Even some of the plants are meat eaters - which raises an
interesting question:

  Is a vegan permitted to eat a flesh-eating plant?

> > > > > > > > > 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,
> > > > > > > > > 50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet
> > > > > > > > > lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Flower meadows only exist because of animal farming.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > See above.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ???
> > > > >
> > > > > 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,...'
> > > > >
> > > > > > - meadows -by definition- only exist because of animal farming.
> >
> > > > Meadow is grassland used to provide forage for domestic animals.

> > > A tract of grassland, either in its natural state or used as
> > > pasture or for growing hay.
> >
> > And hay is forage for domestic animals.  Farmers make meadows.  Grassland in
> > its natural state (in the British Isles) proceeds to climax.  Without
> > farmers meadows vanish in a couple of seasons.

> Secondary succession is threatening many species of open habitats

You're doing it again - pasting screeds of unnecessary verbiage in order
aggressively to agree with me. Please don't bother.  I know all that and
referred to it in the immediately preceding line.

> > > > > > > > Many ancient woodlands exist because of hunting.  Many because of naval
> > > > > > > > requirements and most of the rest because -nothing- else will grow there
> .
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Nonsense..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ..but true.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ancient woodland was cleared to graze animals, and
> > > > > in recent times, since 1945, 50% of what remained.
> > > >
> > > > Woodlands are retained as covert, timber resource and by default.
> > >
> > > Ancient woodland was cleared to graze animals, and
> > > in recent times, since 1945, 50% of what remained.
> >
> > Stop repeating yourself.  It doesn't matter why the stuff that has long gone
> > went, or how it went.  You are complaining about recent loss of 'ancient'
> > woodland (whilst wooded land overall has been increasing slightly.)
> 
> Ancient woodland was cleared to graze animals, and in recent
> times, since 1945, 50% of what remained - to raise 'livestock'.

That would be plain daft.  What you do is get it into arable production as
fast as possible using the more powerful post war cultivation machinery -
thereby releasing some of the marginal arable that perforce was ploughed in
wartime and you put your livestock onto that.

> > > > > > > > Most heathlands only exist because of (ancient) animal farming.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Under natural conditions forest or woodland.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The easiest to slash and burn in the neolithic.
> > > > >
> > > > > 'Sometimes the woodland regenerated in the new clearing,
> > > > > sometimes the pressure of grazing livestock prevented this.
> > > > > ..
> > > > > It is very likely that large areas elsewhere in Britain were also
> > > > > clear of trees. The domesticated animals of Neolithic men
> > > > > included cattle, sheep, goats, pigs ..
> > > >
> > > > WHY bother cut-and pasting screeds of superfluous verbiage if you're only
> > > > going to agree with me?
> > >
> > > WHY not just concede that your addiction to animal fat is the
> > > #1 cause of destruction of natural habitat and native species?
> >
> > You were complaining about the destruction by farmers of
> 
> Habitat for native wild species, in whatever form it existed.

...which farmers had themselves made.
(OK, quite a lot of southern heath is really industrial in its most recent
use but the farming did come before the major potteries.)

> > > > > > > > Hedgerows only exist because of animal farming.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A mere crumbling skeleton of native British habitat.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Which only exists because of animal farming.
> > > > >
> > > > > No.  Which would regenerate without animal farming.
> > > >
> > > > Irrelevant.  They would not be there without animal farming as if there were
> > > > no animals that might stray the land under the hedges would be cultivated.
> > >
> > > Without animal farming there'd be a lot more than just hedgerows.
> >
> > Without animal farming there'd be no hedgerows.
> 
> Without animal farming there'd be a lot more than just hedgerows.

Without animal farming there'd be no hedgerows.  You complained that farmers
were reducing the quantity of something they had themselves made (and which
you seem to object to them having made.

Lotus.  Don't bother searching for yet another acre of text to copy and
paste.  Instead read the thread.  If you didn't want farmers to create those
landforms in the first place then don't complain when they remove (some of)
them.   

Cheerio,

-- 

>>   derek@farm-direct.co.uk
>>   http://www.farm-direct.co.uk/

"Derek Moody"  wrote in message 
news:ant0309320b0BxcK@strongarm.dereks.pad...
 > Lotus.  Don't bother searching for yet another acre of text to copy and
> paste.  Instead read the thread.  If you didn't want farmers to create 
> those
> landforms in the first place then don't complain when they remove (some 
> of)
> them.
>
> Cheerio,
 lotus doesn't do thinking, lotus does copy paste ;-(

Jim Webster

On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 09:26:32 +0000, Derek Moody
 wrote:

>> > > Without animal farming there'd be a lot more than just hedgerows.
>> >
>> > Without animal farming there'd be no hedgerows.
>> 
>> Without animal farming there'd be a lot more than just hedgerows.
>
>Without animal farming there'd be no hedgerows.  

That's a complete nonsense. Many of us are planting hedgerows for
habitat/wildlife. Why, some farmers are even being paid to provide
hedgerows which were ruthlessly destroyed by other inconsiderate
farmers.

You don't need animals as an excuse to plant for conservation these
days.

>You complained that farmers
>were reducing the quantity of something they had themselves made (and which
>you seem to object to them having made.

Your ignorance is showing through in leaps and bounds, but then being
a pro hunt nut it's no wonder!

>Lotus.  Don't bother searching for yet another acre of text to copy and
>paste. 

You need to be educated, you are clearly lacking in basic facts. I'm
surprised anyone should want to bother with a blatant ignoramus, but I
suppose that's her resolution for 2008 or something. Think yourself
lucky.

> Instead read the thread.  If you didn't want farmers to create those
>landforms in the first place then don't complain when they remove (some of)
>them.   

Waffle and stuck in the past. Today we pay farmers to leave habitat
alone, to stop them from destroying it as they have in the past. Why
we even have laws to stop some of it! The rest of us are happy to
plant habitats for wildlife, nature and ourselves. No strings
attached. Unless of course you're a CONservation hooligan charity like
the RSPB or the Woodland Trusts, but that's another world.







--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 09:55:15 -0000, "Jim Webster"
 wrote:

>
>"Derek Moody"  wrote in message 
>news:ant0309320b0BxcK@strongarm.dereks.pad...
> > Lotus.  Don't bother searching for yet another acre of text to copy and
>> paste.  Instead read the thread.  If you didn't want farmers to create 
>> those
>> landforms in the first place then don't complain when they remove (some 
>> of)
>> them.
>>
>> Cheerio,

> lotus doesn't do thinking, lotus does copy paste ;-(

That's what education is all about, learning from written history. You
can take notes if you wish, although I fear you have no interest in
learning unless there is something in it for you!

Ever wondered why you're stuck on a failed farm earning pocket money
for rubbish village idiot stories and constantly holding your hand
out?

I'm pissed my taxes are wasted on people like you, we should have
ploughed you back in to the earth long ago!









--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

"Adenoid Hynkel ."  wrote in message 
news:7acpn3p5i7hjs5g5enbc2g47qs86sdoipm@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 09:55:15 -0000, "Jim Webster"
>  wrote:
>
>>
>>"Derek Moody"  wrote in message
>>news:ant0309320b0BxcK@strongarm.dereks.pad...
>> > Lotus.  Don't bother searching for yet another acre of text to copy and
>>> paste.  Instead read the thread.  If you didn't want farmers to create
>>> those
>>> landforms in the first place then don't complain when they remove (some
>>> of)
>>> them.
>>>
>>> Cheerio,
>
>> lotus doesn't do thinking, lotus does copy paste ;-(
>
> That's what education is all about, learning from written history. You
> can take notes if you wish, although I fear you have no interest in
> learning unless there is something in it for you!
>
> Ever wondered why you're stuck on a failed farm earning pocket money
> for rubbish village idiot stories and constantly holding your hand
> out?
>
> I'm pissed my taxes are wasted on people like you, we should have
> ploughed you back in to the earth long ago!
>
Now, be fair. If it was not for Jim Webster taking lottery money and handing 
it to someone who failed to pay for digging vast holes, we would never know 
that St.Patrick was not born at Unswick.

Knowing that St.Patrick was not born at Unswick will make every Celtic heart 
proud and adds greatly to Irish and Welsh history. Defra can buy the hole 
for burying the next batch of carcasses

The missing VAT is probably the only direct loss to the pubic purse and I 
imagine that they will be busy chasing that up. HMC&R will enjoy this one.

As I say, they will be making a film of this. Although to be honest, I think 
it will be more farce than serious history.

At least Jim has had the commonsense to resign his Chairmanship of the 
charity and can move on to search for pirate gold in the West Indies or more 
likely Barrow in Furness. There will be ample oportunity for the general 
public to buy shares in any new enterprise.

It will be really interesting to hear his version of events, once all 
investigations are complete. I will remind him from time to time that he did 
imply that he would give us the story once the police had finished.

It really is important for all charities that money does not go missing and 
very helpful for those of us pushing for much closer supervision and tighter 
investigations by the Charity Commission.


-- 
Regards
Pat Gardiner
www.go-self-sufficient.com




-- 
Regards
Pat Gardiner
www.go-self-sufficient.com




> --
>
> My greatest speech to the peasants
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q
>
> pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk
>
>
>
> England / Angelic Upstarts
>
> The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
> In the way that your forefathers tell
> And never a country has been so great
> The stories Britannia could tell
>
> I never want to live my life
> Away from the golden shores
> There's never a country in the world
> With the scent of an English rose
>
> England oh England a country so great
> A land that's so fair and so true
> There'll never be any colours like
> The red the white and the blue
>
> Whenever you go to a far off land
> There's something goes with you
> The pride and the joy and the love that comes
> For your mother of red white and blue
>
> You could never be born under a flag that's like
> The one of the Union Jack
> St.Georges spirit has never died
> It all keeps coming back

Followup restored, again.

"Derek Moody"  wrote in message news:ant0309320b0BxcK@strongarm.dereks.pad...
> In article <flh9gi$kmb$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
> <URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
>
> > > > > > And how many meat eaters are there in the UK?
> > > > >
> > > > > No idea, lots.  Review the last three words.
> > > >
> > > > Tens of millions.
> > >
> > > Vastly more than that. Your figure would barely cover the human population.
> >
> > Vastly more than tens of millions of meat eaters in the UK, moody?
>
> Oh yes. Even some of the plants are meat eaters

Insects.  But we're talking about the human population.

> > > > > > > > > > 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,
> > > > > > > > > > 50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet
> > > > > > > > > > lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Flower meadows only exist because of animal farming.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > See above.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ???
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,...'
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > - meadows -by definition- only exist because of animal farming.
> > >
> > > > > Meadow is grassland used to provide forage for domestic animals.
>
> > > > A tract of grassland, either in its natural state or used as
> > > > pasture or for growing hay.
> > >
> > > And hay is forage for domestic animals.  Farmers make meadows.  Grassland in
> > > its natural state (in the British Isles) proceeds to climax.  Without
> > > farmers meadows vanish in a couple of seasons.
>
> > Secondary succession is threatening many species of open habitats
>
> You're doing it again -

Showing you that without a single human ever setting foot in Britain
there'd still be areas of open vegetation created by native herbivores.

> > > > > > > > > Many ancient woodlands exist because of hunting.  Many because of naval
> > > > > > > > > requirements and most of the rest because -nothing- else will grow there
> > .
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Nonsense..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ..but true.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ancient woodland was cleared to graze animals, and
> > > > > > in recent times, since 1945, 50% of what remained.
> > > > >
> > > > > Woodlands are retained as covert, timber resource and by default.
> > > >
> > > > Ancient woodland was cleared to graze animals, and
> > > > in recent times, since 1945, 50% of what remained.
> > >
> > > Stop repeating yourself.  It doesn't matter why the stuff that has long gone
> > > went, or how it went.  You are complaining about recent loss of 'ancient'
> > > woodland (whilst wooded land overall has been increasing slightly.)
> >
> > Ancient woodland was cleared to graze animals, and in recent
> > times, since 1945, 50% of what remained - to raise 'livestock'.
>
> That would be plain daft.  What you do is get it into arable production as
> fast as possible using the more powerful post war cultivation machinery -
> thereby releasing some of the marginal arable that perforce was ploughed in
> wartime and you put your livestock onto that.

Grazing and arable to feed 'livestock'.  During WW2 arable
land increased by 63% due to conversion of _grassland_.

> > > > > > > > > Most heathlands only exist because of (ancient) animal farming.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Under natural conditions forest or woodland.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The easiest to slash and burn in the neolithic.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 'Sometimes the woodland regenerated in the new clearing,
> > > > > > sometimes the pressure of grazing livestock prevented this.
> > > > > > ..
> > > > > > It is very likely that large areas elsewhere in Britain were also
> > > > > > clear of trees. The domesticated animals of Neolithic men
> > > > > > included cattle, sheep, goats, pigs ..
> > > > >
> > > > > WHY bother cut-and pasting screeds of superfluous verbiage if you're only
> > > > > going to agree with me?
> > > >
> > > > WHY not just concede that your addiction to animal fat is the
> > > > #1 cause of destruction of natural habitat and native species?
> > >
> > > You were complaining about the destruction by farmers of
> >
> > Habitat for native wild species, in whatever form it existed.
>
> ...which farmers had themselves made.

Which would otherwise have been richer, more diverse habitat.

> (OK, quite a lot of southern heath is really industrial in its most recent
> use but the farming did come before the major potteries.)
>
> > > > > > > > > Hedgerows only exist because of animal farming.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > A mere crumbling skeleton of native British habitat.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Which only exists because of animal farming.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No.  Which would regenerate without animal farming.
> > > > >
> > > > > Irrelevant.  They would not be there without animal farming as if there were
> > > > > no animals that might stray the land under the hedges would be cultivated.
> > > >
> > > > Without animal farming there'd be a lot more than just hedgerows.
> > >
> > > Without animal farming there'd be no hedgerows.
> >
> > Without animal farming there'd be a lot more than just hedgerows.
>
> Without animal farming there'd be no hedgerows.  You complained that farmers
> were reducing the quantity of something they had themselves made (and which
> you seem to object to them having made.

Hedgerows are the scant remnants of native British flora/habitat.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "pearl" 
 >
> Hedgerows are the scant remnants of native British flora/habitat.
>
rubbish
round here they were planted where there was never any woodland, because the 
land was mudflat when the tide finally left
The native flora before agriculture was mudflat

Jim Webster

"Jim Webster"  wrote in message news:5u41f6F1gb1ttU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "pearl" 
>  >
> > Hedgerows are the scant remnants of native British flora/habitat.
> >
> rubbish
> round here

' Other priority habitats of the uplands include areas of oak and ash
woodland and fen wetlands. Much woodland has been lost over
the centuries due to clearance for stock and through conversion
to plantation woodland. The scale of loss varies across the region
but in parts of the Pennine uplands less than 1% of the land area
remains under native tree cover. Similarly, types of fen or wetland
habitat have been much reduced and impoverished across the
uplands due to past drainage.

The lowlands of the region retain a number of very significant areas
of habitat of national priority, notably raised bog (35.3% of the UK`s
total) lowland heathland, fen and reedbed (8% of the UK`s total) and
areas of wood pasture. In addition, conservation-managed cereal field
margins (18% of England's total) and ancient species-rich hedgerows
(11.4% of England's total) merit special attention within the more
intensively farmed landscape.
..'
http://statistics.defra.gov.uk/esg/reports/capmtrp/appendix2f.pdf

> they were planted where there was never any woodland, because the
> land was mudflat when the tide finally left
> The native flora before agriculture was mudflat

'The region's coast includes the Humber estuary which is one of the
top ten sites in Europe for wintering waterfowl with internationally
important populations of brent geese, golden plover, grey plover,
lapwing and knot. The inter-tidal sand and mudflats and saltmarsh
areas are particularly important for the birds.
..'
http://statistics.defra.gov.uk/esg/reports/capmtrp/appendix2f.pdf

"pearl"  wrote in message 
news:flimgv$85i$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
> "Jim Webster"  wrote in message 
> news:5u41f6F1gb1ttU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "pearl" 
>>  >
>> > Hedgerows are the scant remnants of native British flora/habitat.
>> >
>> rubbish
>> round here
>
irrelevent cut and paste cut out


>> they were planted where there was never any woodland, because the
>> land was mudflat when the tide finally left
>> The native flora before agriculture was mudflat
>
> 'The region's coast includes the Humber estuary

no it doesn't

deal with the real world, think rather than just cutting and pasting

Jim Webster

"Jim Webster"  wrote in message news:5u451pF1g4abpU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "pearl"  wrote in message
> news:flimgv$85i$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
> > "Jim Webster"  wrote in message
> > news:5u41f6F1gb1ttU1@mid.individual.net...
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "pearl" 
> >>  >
> >> > Hedgerows are the scant remnants of native British flora/habitat.
> >> >
> >> rubbish
> >> round here
> >
> irrelevent cut and paste cut out

Jim on the run.

> >> they were planted where there was never any woodland, because the
> >> land was mudflat when the tide finally left
> >> The native flora before agriculture was mudflat
> >
> > 'The region's coast includes the Humber estuary
>
> no it doesn't

So where are you exactly?

> deal with the real world,

I am.

"pearl"  wrote in message 
news:flin95$9kf$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
> "Jim Webster"  wrote in message 
> news:5u451pF1g4abpU1@mid.individual.net...
 >> irrelevent cut and paste cut out
>
> Jim on the run.

no, I don't read screeds of cut and paste crap that you don't understand


>
>> >> they were planted where there was never any woodland, because the
>> >> land was mudflat when the tide finally left
>> >> The native flora before agriculture was mudflat
>> >
>> > 'The region's coast includes the Humber estuary
>>
>> no it doesn't
>
> So where are you exactly?
>
>> deal with the real world,
>
> I am.

then why did you say the humber estury is in Cumbria

Jim Webster

"Jim Webster"  wrote in message news:5u46btF1fsv9gU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "pearl"  wrote in message
> news:flin95$9kf$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
> > "Jim Webster"  wrote in message
> > news:5u451pF1g4abpU1@mid.individual.net...
>  >> irrelevent cut and paste cut out
> >
> > Jim on the run.
>
> no, I don't read screeds of cut and paste crap that you don't understand

Go tell DEFRA it's "crap", and let us know what their response is.

> >> >> they were planted where there was never any woodland, because the
> >> >> land was mudflat when the tide finally left
> >> >> The native flora before agriculture was mudflat
> >> >
> >> > 'The region's coast includes the Humber estuary
> >>
> >> no it doesn't
> >
> > So where are you exactly?

Well?

> >> deal with the real world,
> >
> > I am.
>
> then why did you say the humber estury is in Cumbria

I didn't.  I don't know whether you're in Yorkshire or Cumbria.

What I was showing you is that mudflats are important habitat.

Cumbria..

'The Solway Coast is a tide-washed estuary between southwest
Scotland and northwest Cumbria. Mud flats and marsh are
created by the narrowing of Solway Firth, the bore tides and
strong currents, and the flat land.
..
Diverse animal and bird life inhabit all areas of the Solway Coast.
Thyme, spiny restharrow, yellow kidney vetch and pale blue
harebells nestle in the sand dunes while skylark and barn owls
fly overhead. Wading birds such as lapwing, oystercatcher,
and curlew cover the sands at low tide.
..'
Farm fields and hedgerows extend over what was forest land
until the 1400s.
..'
http://www.thecumbriadirectory.com/Cumbria_Countryside/Cumbria_Coast/Solway_Coast/Solway_Coast.php

"pearl"  wrote in message 
news:fliq3i$es1$1@reader01.news.esat.net...

>> then why did you say the humber estury is in Cumbria
>
> I didn't.  I don't know whether you're in Yorkshire or Cumbria.

then you should have asked first rather than pasting irrelevent screeds of 
stuff

Jim Webster wrote:
> "pearl"  wrote in message
> news:fliq3i$es1$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
>
>>> then why did you say the humber estury is in Cumbria
>>
>> I didn't.  I don't know whether you're in Yorkshire or Cumbria.

After all this time???
<shakes head in astonishment>

Mind you - that does completely prove the point that he/she/it never reads 
anything at all

>
> then you should have asked first rather than pasting irrelevent
> screeds of stuff


-- 

regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment,  Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk

"Jim Webster"  wrote in message news:5u4ip7F1gbqdrU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "pearl"  wrote in message
> news:fliq3i$es1$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
>
> >> then why did you say the humber estury is in Cumbria
> >
> > I didn't.  I don't know whether you're in Yorkshire or Cumbria.
>
> then you should have asked first

You should have said from the outset "around here in ........".

> rather than pasting irrelevent screeds of stuff.

All of the information posted is relevent to the argument.

Unlike your repeated dishonest irrelevent personal attacks.

In article <flih6m$ub2$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
<URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> 
> Followup restored, again.

And reinstated.  If anyone in that massive crosspost is even faintly
interested in the topic they can pursue the followup.

> Insects.  But we're talking about the human population.

This is the first time you've mentioned humans in this context.  Don't move
the goalposts.

> > > > > > > > > > > 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,
> > > > > > > > > > > 50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet
> > > > > > > > > > > lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Flower meadows only exist because of animal farming.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > See above.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ???
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,...'
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - meadows -by definition- only exist because of animal farming.
> > > >
> > > > > > Meadow is grassland used to provide forage for domestic animals.
> >
> > > > > A tract of grassland, either in its natural state or used as
> > > > > pasture or for growing hay.
> > > >
> > > > And hay is forage for domestic animals.  Farmers make meadows.  Grassland in
> > > > its natural state (in the British Isles) proceeds to climax.  Without
> > > > farmers meadows vanish in a couple of seasons.
> >
> > > Secondary succession is threatening many species of open habitats
> >
> > You're doing it again -
> 
> Showing you that without a single human ever setting foot in Britain
> there'd still be areas of open vegetation created by native herbivores.

But that has NOTHING to do with MEADOWS.  Don't move the goalposts.

Meadows are made by farmers.

> > > > > > > > > > Many ancient woodlands exist because of hunting.  Many because of na
> val
> > > > > > > > > > requirements and most of the rest because -nothing- else will grow t
> here
> > > .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Nonsense..
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ..but true.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ancient woodland was cleared to graze animals, and
> > > > > > > in recent times, since 1945, 50% of what remained.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Woodlands are retained as covert, timber resource and by default.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ancient woodland was cleared to graze animals, and
> > > > > in recent times, since 1945, 50% of what remained.
> > > >
> > > > Stop repeating yourself.  It doesn't matter why the stuff that has long gone
> > > > went, or how it went.  You are complaining about recent loss of 'ancient'
> > > > woodland (whilst wooded land overall has been increasing slightly.)
> > >
> > > Ancient woodland was cleared to graze animals, and in recent
> > > times, since 1945, 50% of what remained - to raise 'livestock'.
> >
> > That would be plain daft.  What you do is get it into arable production as
> > fast as possible using the more powerful post war cultivation machinery -
> > thereby releasing some of the marginal arable that perforce was ploughed in
> > wartime and you put your livestock onto that.
> 
> Grazing and arable to feed 'livestock'.  During WW2 arable
> land increased by 63% due to conversion of _grassland_.

To feed people.  Food of all sorts was rationed.  Meat (a principal product
of livestock) was rationed most severely of all.

The grassland converted to arable in WW2 was marginal land that didn't crop
well enough to be worth planting in peace time.  Quite a lot of recreational
grassland is included in that figure, city parks, sports fields, golf
courses etc. It was ploughed because there was little or no machinery
available with sufficient power to cultivate the heavier soil types.

> > > > > > > > > > Most heathlands only exist because of (ancient) animal farming.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Under natural conditions forest or woodland.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The easiest to slash and burn in the neolithic.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 'Sometimes the woodland regenerated in the new clearing,
> > > > > > > sometimes the pressure of grazing livestock prevented this.
> > > > > > > ..
> > > > > > > It is very likely that large areas elsewhere in Britain were also
> > > > > > > clear of trees. The domesticated animals of Neolithic men
> > > > > > > included cattle, sheep, goats, pigs ..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > WHY bother cut-and pasting screeds of superfluous verbiage if you're only
> > > > > > going to agree with me?
> > > > >
> > > > > WHY not just concede that your addiction to animal fat is the
> > > > > #1 cause of destruction of natural habitat and native species?
> > > >
> > > > You were complaining about the destruction by farmers of
> > >
> > > Habitat for native wild species, in whatever form it existed.
> >
> > ...which farmers had themselves made.
> 
> Which would otherwise have been richer, more diverse habitat.

OK, we've established that you didn't want the heathland in the first place. 
Now you are objecting to the demise of something you never wanted.

> > (OK, quite a lot of southern heath is really industrial in its most recent
> > use but the farming did come before the major potteries.)
> >
> > > > > > > > > > Hedgerows only exist because of animal farming.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > A mere crumbling skeleton of native British habitat.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Which only exists because of animal farming.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No.  Which would regenerate without animal farming.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Irrelevant.  They would not be there without animal farming as if there were
> > > > > > no animals that might stray the land under the hedges would be cultivated.
> > > > >
> > > > > Without animal farming there'd be a lot more than just hedgerows.
> > > >
> > > > Without animal farming there'd be no hedgerows.
> > >
> > > Without animal farming there'd be a lot more than just hedgerows.
> >
> > Without animal farming there'd be no hedgerows.  You complained that farmers
> > were reducing the quantity of something they had themselves made (and which
> > you seem to object to them having made.
> 
> Hedgerows are the scant remnants of native British flora/habitat.

And we've established that you didn't want the hedgerows to be planted by
farmers (mostly) after inclosure and the breakup of the great field system.

Now you object to their removal.

You are forgetting that during most of the period about which you are
complaining farmers were encouraged, -paid- to remove them by government
departments implementing (what they claim to be) the will of the people.
In many cases farmers who didn't apply for removal grants were inspected
to find out why not.

Your first post to this thread of Pete's complained:

  'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,
  50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet
  lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming.

(Which is itself palpable nonsense as, for Eg. the building of Stanstead
Airport accounted for some of each of these without a single animal.)

With the partial exception of wetlands all of these were shaped, and usually
created, by farmers.

It turns out you didn't want any of them in the first place.

You are not even self consistent.

Cheerio,

-- 

>>   derek@farm-direct.co.uk
>>   http://www.farm-direct.co.uk/

In article <fliq3i$es1$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
<URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> "Jim Webster"  wrote in message news:5u46btF1fsv
> 9gU1@mid.individual.net...
> >
> > "pearl"  wrote in message
> > news:flin95$9kf$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
> > > "Jim Webster"  wrote in message
> > > news:5u451pF1g4abpU1@mid.individual.net...
> >  >> irrelevent cut and paste cut out
> > >
> > > Jim on the run.
> >
> > no, I don't read screeds of cut and paste crap that you don't understand
> 
> Go tell DEFRA it's "crap", and let us know what their response is.

Their response will be that you turned into crap the moment you passed it
without digesting the content.

> What I was showing you is that mudflats are important habitat.

We already knew.

> Farm fields and hedgerows extend over what was forest land
> until the 1400s.

But you already objected to the creation of hedgerows and the creation of
forest before that.

Cheerio,

-- 

>>   derek@farm-direct.co.uk
>>   http://www.farm-direct.co.uk/

"pearl"  wrote in message 
news:flj6ml$5r4$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
> "Jim Webster"  wrote in message 
> news:5u4ip7F1gbqdrU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> "pearl"  wrote in message
>> news:fliq3i$es1$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
>>
>> >> then why did you say the humber estury is in Cumbria
>> >
>> > I didn't.  I don't know whether you're in Yorkshire or Cumbria.
>>
>> then you should have asked first
>
> You should have said from the outset "around here in ........".

seeing as you were told in a previous post, (the thread where you refused to 
say what exactly your protein sources were because "you'd posted it before") 
you were told
>
>> rather than pasting irrelevent screeds of stuff.
>
> All of the information posted is relevent to the argument.
>
exactly how is the details of the Duddon estury relevent to our land?

we don't farm on an estuary

Jim Webster

"Derek Moody"  wrote in message news:ant031851868BxcK@strongarm.dereks.pad...
> In article <flih6m$ub2$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
> <URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> >
> > Followup restored, again.
>
> And reinstated.  If anyone in that massive crosspost is even faintly
> interested in the topic they can pursue the followup.

Everyone in the crosspost is interested, but you could
always restrict YOUR OWN replies to a limited forum.

> > Insects.  But we're talking about the human population.
>
> This is the first time you've mentioned humans in this context.  Don't move
> the goalposts.

Don't be so ridiculous, if you can help it..  I don't think you can.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,
> > > > > > > > > > > > 50% of ancient woodlands, 40% of heathlands, 50% of wet
> > > > > > > > > > > > lands & 224,000 km of hedgerows all due to animal farming.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Flower meadows only exist because of animal farming.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > See above.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ???
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 'Since 1945 in the UK we have lost 95% of flower meadows,...'
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > - meadows -by definition- only exist because of animal farming.
> > > > >
> > > > > > > Meadow is grassland used to provide forage for domestic animals.
> > >
> > > > > > A tract of grassland, either in its natural state or used as
> > > > > > pasture or for growing hay.
> > > > >
> > > > > And hay is forage for domestic animals.  Farmers make meadows.  Grassland in
> > > > > its natural state (in the British Isles) proceeds to climax.  Without
> > > > > farmers meadows vanish in a couple of seasons.
> > >
> > > > Secondary succession is threatening many species of open habitats
> > >
> > > You're doing it again -
> >
> > Showing you that without a single human ever setting foot in Britain
> > there'd still be areas of open vegetation created by native herbivores.
>
> But that has NOTHING to do with MEADOWS.  Don't move the goalposts.
>
> Meadows are made by farmers.

<yawn>  I suppose that next you're going to claim that
farmers introduced grasses and wildflowers to Britain..

> > > > > > > > > > > Many ancient woodlands exist because of hunting.  Many because of na
> > val
> > > > > > > > > > > requirements and most of the rest because -nothing- else will grow t
> > here
> > > > .
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Nonsense..
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ..but true.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ancient woodland was cleared to graze animals, and
> > > > > > > > in recent times, since 1945, 50% of what remained.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Woodlands are retained as covert, timber resource and by default.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ancient woodland was cleared to graze animals, and
> > > > > > in recent times, since 1945, 50% of what remained.
> > > > >
> > > > > Stop repeating yourself.  It doesn't matter why the stuff that has long gone
> > > > > went, or how it went.  You are complaining about recent loss of 'ancient'
> > > > > woodland (whilst wooded land overall has been increasing slightly.)
> > > >
> > > > Ancient woodland was cleared to graze animals, and in recent
> > > > times, since 1945, 50% of what remained - to raise 'livestock'.
> > >
> > > That would be plain daft.  What you do is get it into arable production as
> > > fast as possible using the more powerful post war cultivation machinery -
> > > thereby releasing some of the marginal arable that perforce was ploughed in
> > > wartime and you put your livestock onto that.
> >
> > Grazing and arable to feed 'livestock'.  During WW2 arable
> > land increased by 63% due to conversion of _grassland_.
>
> To feed people.  Food of all sorts was rationed.  Meat (a principal product
> of livestock) was rationed most severely of all.

Right.

> The grassland converted to arable in WW2 was marginal land

What happens to your claim that grassland was made by farmers?

> > > > > > > > > > > Most heathlands only exist because of (ancient) animal farming.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Under natural conditions forest or woodland.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The easiest to slash and burn in the neolithic.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 'Sometimes the woodland regenerated in the new clearing,
> > > > > > > > sometimes the pressure of grazing livestock prevented this.
> > > > > > > > ..
> > > > > > > > It is very likely that large areas elsewhere in Britain were also
> > > > > > > > clear of trees. The domesticated animals of Neolithic men
> > > > > > > > included cattle, sheep, goats, pigs ..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > WHY bother cut-and pasting screeds of superfluous verbiage if you're only
> > > > > > > going to agree with me?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > WHY not just concede that your addiction to animal fat is the
> > > > > > #1 cause of destruction of natural habitat and native species?
> > > > >
> > > > > You were complaining about the destruction by farmers of
> > > >
> > > > Habitat for native wild species, in whatever form it existed.
> > >
> > > ...which farmers had themselves made.
> >
> > Which would otherwise have been richer, more diverse habitat.
>
> OK, we've established that you didn't want the heathland in the first place.
> Now you are objecting to the demise of something you never wanted.

You've established nothing of the sort.  You're just wasting our time.

> > > (OK, quite a lot of southern heath is really industrial in its most recent
> > > use but the farming did come before the major potteries.)
> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Hedgerows only exist because of animal farming.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > A mere crumbling skeleton of native British habitat.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Which only exists because of animal farming.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > No.  Which would regenerate without animal farming.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Irrelevant.  They would not be there without animal farming as if there were
> > > > > > > no animals that might stray the land under the hedges would be cultivated.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Without animal farming there'd be a lot more than just hedgerows.
> > > > >
> > > > > Without animal farming there'd be no hedgerows.
> > > >
> > > > Without animal farming there'd be a lot more than just hedgerows.
> > >
> > > Without animal farming there'd be no hedgerows.  You complained that farmers
> > > were reducing the quantity of something they had themselves made (and which
> > > you seem to object to them having made.
> >
> > Hedgerows are the scant remnants of native British flora/habitat.
>
> And we've established that you didn't want the hedgerows to be planted by
> farmers (mostly) after inclosure and the breakup of the great field system.
>
> Now you object to their removal.

What part of natural habitat has been destroyed for animal farming
don't you get?  It's been going on for thousands of years.  Enough!

"Jim Webster"  wrote in message news:5u4qhfF1gggelU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "pearl"  wrote in message
> news:flj6ml$5r4$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
> > "Jim Webster"  wrote in message
> > news:5u4ip7F1gbqdrU1@mid.individual.net...
> >>
> >> "pearl"  wrote in message
> >> news:fliq3i$es1$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
> >>
> >> >> then why did you say the humber estury is in Cumbria
> >> >
> >> > I didn't.  I don't know whether you're in Yorkshire or Cumbria.
> >>
> >> then you should have asked first
> >
> > You should have said from the outset "around here in ........".
>
> seeing as you were told in a previous post, (the thread where you refused to
> say what exactly your protein sources were because "you'd posted it before")
> you were told

But I've seen Yorkshire mentioned in your posts quite often.

Every plant food contains protein.

> >> rather than pasting irrelevent screeds of stuff.
> >
> > All of the information posted is relevent to the argument.
> >
> exactly how is the details of the Duddon estury relevent to our land?
>
> we don't farm on an estuary

You said "round here"... hedgerows planted on mudflats..

"Derek Moody"  wrote in message news:ant031851bc8BxcK@strongarm.dereks.pad...
> In article <fliq3i$es1$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
> <URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> > "Jim Webster"  wrote in message news:5u46btF1fsv
> > 9gU1@mid.individual.net...
> > >
> > > "pearl"  wrote in message
> > > news:flin95$9kf$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
> > > > "Jim Webster"  wrote in message
> > > > news:5u451pF1g4abpU1@mid.individual.net...
> > >  >> irrelevent cut and paste cut out
> > > >
> > > > Jim on the run.
> > >
> > > no, I don't read screeds of cut and paste crap that you don't understand
> >
> > Go tell DEFRA it's "crap", and let us know what their response is.
>
> Their response will be that

You are dishonest, desperate fools.

> > What I was showing you is that mudflats are important habitat.
>
> We already knew.

But animal farmers planted hedgerows on it, says jim.

> > Farm fields and hedgerows extend over what was forest land
> > until the 1400s.
>
> But you already objected to the creation of hedgerows and the creation of
> forest before that.

What I object to, twister, is the destruction of habitat for wildlife.

Simple really, but still way over your heads.

"pearl"  wrote in message 
news:fljffc$lp7$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
> "Jim Webster"  wrote in message 
> news:5u4qhfF1gggelU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> "pearl"  wrote in message
>> news:flj6ml$5r4$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
>> > "Jim Webster"  wrote in message
>> > news:5u4ip7F1gbqdrU1@mid.individual.net...
>> >>
>> >> "pearl"  wrote in message
>> >> news:fliq3i$es1$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
>> >>
>> >> >> then why did you say the humber estury is in Cumbria
>> >> >
>> >> > I didn't.  I don't know whether you're in Yorkshire or Cumbria.
>> >>
>> >> then you should have asked first
>> >
>> > You should have said from the outset "around here in ........".
>>
>> seeing as you were told in a previous post, (the thread where you refused 
>> to
>> say what exactly your protein sources were because "you'd posted it 
>> before")
>> you were told
>
> But I've seen Yorkshire mentioned in your posts quite often.
>

funnily enough I've mentioned the US as well but I don't live there

> Every plant food contains protein.

eat a lot of grass then?

>
>> >> rather than pasting irrelevent screeds of stuff.
>> >
>> > All of the information posted is relevent to the argument.
>> >
>> exactly how is the details of the Duddon estury relevent to our land?
>>
>> we don't farm on an estuary
>
> You said "round here"... hedgerows planted on mudflats..

read the words
rubbish
round here they were planted where there was never any woodland, because the
land was mudflat when the tide finally left
The native flora before agriculture was mudflat


basically you made the rather silly comment
"Hedgerows are the scant remnants of native British flora/habitat"

There are estates round here that still have the invoices for planting the 
first hedges in the area

Jim Webster

> In article <flih6m$ub2$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
Showing you that without a single human ever setting foot in Britain
there'd still be areas of open vegetation created by native herbivores.

Just curious...  What herbivores were "native" to Britain?  Are you sure the 
herbivores weren't introduced by people setting foot...?

M

In article <fljfnq$lvg$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
<URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> "Derek Moody"  wrote in message news:ant031851bc8BxcK@stronga

> But animal farmers planted hedgerows on it, says jim.

Yes, farmers planted the hedgerows.  I already told you that.

And now you object because some of them have been taken out since the war.

Cheerio,

-- 

>>   derek@farm-direct.co.uk
>>   http://www.farm-direct.co.uk/

In article <fljfds$lbq$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
<URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> "Derek Moody"  wrote in message news:ant031851868BxcK@stronga
> rm.dereks.pad...
> > In article <flih6m$ub2$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
> > <URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
> > >
> > > Followup restored, again.
> >
> > And reinstated.  If anyone in that massive crosspost is even faintly
> > interested in the topic they can pursue the followup.
> 
> Everyone in the crosspost is interested, but you could
> always restrict YOUR OWN replies to a limited forum.

Reinstated.  If anyone is following this please state your group.

> > > Insects.

So in your scheme of things insects don't count?  Ok.

> > >            But we're talking about the human population.

Are we?

> > This is the first time you've mentioned humans in this context.  Don't move
> > the goalposts.
> 
> Don't be so ridiculous, if you can help it..  I don't think you can.

You asked about the number of meat eaters in the uk - as one of my meals
included one of those meat eaters (and yes, I am another) I, not
unreasonably, assumed that you wanted a complete count.

Do tell us, what is your position on eating carnivorous plants - they're not
all exclusive insectovores?
Saprophytes?
Coprophytes?

Cheerio,

-- 

>>   derek@farm-direct.co.uk
>>   http://www.farm-direct.co.uk/

"Jim Webster"  wrote in message 
news:5u4u8iF1frdnvU1@mid.individual.net...
 >
> There are estates round here that still have the invoices for planting the 
> first hedges in the area
>


  You really ought to get around to paying Jim :)

"Michelle Masters"  wrote in message 
news:Ub-dnYjKoNEI3uDanZ2dnUVZ_hqdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> In article <flih6m$ub2$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
> Showing you that without a single human ever setting foot in Britain
> there'd still be areas of open vegetation created by native herbivores.
>
> Just curious...  What herbivores were "native" to Britain?  Are you sure 
> the herbivores weren't introduced by people setting foot...?
>

 An interesting thought, I guess if you go back to the last ice age, very 
few.

"buddenbrooks"  wrote in message 
news:flkirh$r2d$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> "Jim Webster"  wrote in message 
> news:5u4u8iF1frdnvU1@mid.individual.net...
> >
>> There are estates round here that still have the invoices for planting 
>> the first hedges in the area
>>
>
>
>  You really ought to get around to paying Jim :)

hey, it takes three hundred years before you know that they did it right, 
let's not rush these things, I'm not buying a pig in a poke ;-)

Jim Webster

In article <flkjl0$rtj$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, buddenbrooks 
 writes
>
>"Michelle Masters"  wrote in message 
>news:Ub-dnYjKoNEI3uDanZ2dnUVZ_hqdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>> In article <flih6m$ub2$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
>> Showing you that without a single human ever setting foot in Britain
>> there'd still be areas of open vegetation created by native herbivores.
>>
>> Just curious...  What herbivores were "native" to Britain?  Are you 
>>sure  the herbivores weren't introduced by people setting foot...?
>>
>
>An interesting thought, I guess if you go back to the last ice age, 
>very few.

After the last ice age, there was a land bridge to the continent of 
Europe and a lot of grazing animals got here under their own steam at 
more or less the same time as man, namely Reindeer, Aurochs (or Bison), 
Red Deer, Roe Deer and Elk, and probably Horse.


-- 
Malcolm

In article <flkjl0$rtj$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, buddenbrooks
<URL:mailto:buddenbrooks@ad.de> wrote:
> 
> "Michelle Masters"  wrote in message 
> news:Ub-dnYjKoNEI3uDanZ2dnUVZ_hqdnZ2d@giganews.com...
> >> In article <flih6m$ub2$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
> > Showing you that without a single human ever setting foot in Britain
> > there'd still be areas of open vegetation created by native herbivores.
> >
> > Just curious...  What herbivores were "native" to Britain?  Are you sure 
> > the herbivores weren't introduced by people setting foot...?
> >
> 
>  An interesting thought, I guess if you go back to the last ice age, very 
> few. 

Hmm.

Reindeer, Red Deer, Roe Deer, Horse, Aurochs, possibly smaller wild cattle,
possibly Bison but I don't think they survived the opening of the North Sea,
likewise Mammoth.  Smaller herbivores: Common and Mountain Hares, Beavers; I
think that's about it for mammals over squirrel size (which were red). 

Geese, swans, some ducks, a few other birds with a mixed diet.

There were also bears and wild pigs with a partly herbivorous diet.

Cheerio,

-- 

>>   derek@farm-direct.co.uk
>>   http://www.farm-direct.co.uk/

Derek Moody wrote:
>>
>>  An interesting thought, I guess if you go back to the last ice age,
>> very few.
>
> Hmm.
>
> Reindeer, Red Deer, Roe Deer, Horse, Aurochs, possibly smaller wild
> cattle, possibly Bison but I don't think they survived the opening of
> the North Sea, likewise Mammoth.  Smaller herbivores: Common and
> Mountain Hares, Beavers; I think that's about it for mammals over
> squirrel size (which were red).

And it was the recolonisation of the areas by scrub and deer of whichever 
species that Early Man followed.
They were reliant on deer for a vast array of resources - food, skins, 
music, tools,
There are papers on woodland pasture where the grazing patterns and 
opportunities of the deer were being managed by Early Man.
They have co-existed and Man has been involved in the management of his 
environment for so many thousands of years that its farcicle to consider our 
environment any other way.

-- 

regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment,  Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk

Quoting from message 
 posted on 4 Jan 2008 by Jill
 I would like to add:

> Derek Moody wrote:
>>>
>>>  An interesting thought, I guess if you go back to the last ice age,
>>> very few.
>>
>> Hmm.
>>
>> Reindeer, Red Deer, Roe Deer, Horse, Aurochs, possibly smaller wild
>> cattle, possibly Bison but I don't think they survived the opening of
>> the North Sea, likewise Mammoth.  Smaller herbivores: Common and
>> Mountain Hares, Beavers; I think that's about it for mammals over
>> squirrel size (which were red).
> 
> And it was the recolonisation of the areas by scrub and deer of whichever
> species that Early Man followed.
> They were reliant on deer for a vast array of resources - food, skins,
> music, tools,
> There are papers on woodland pasture where the grazing patterns and
> opportunities of the deer were being managed by Early Man.
> They have co-existed and Man has been involved in the management of his
> environment for so many thousands of years that its farcicle to consider our
> environment any other way.
> 

Child gave me "The Tribes of Britain" by David Miles, an archeologist, 
ISBN 978 0 7538 1799 5.

Very interesting re "prehistoric" agriculture and diet.

-- 
.ElaineJ.  Visit Jones' Pages at http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/ejones
.Virtual.  Corwen, North Wales; Steam Traction, with feature on 
Fodens; StrongArm  Textures/Backdrops; Spring Graphics
.RISC PC.  CMMGB with pics of pre- WW 1 Dawson & Yukon Volunteers.

Elaine Jones wrote:
> Quoting from message 
> posted on 4 Jan 2008 by Jill
> I would like to add:
>
>> Derek Moody wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  An interesting thought, I guess if you go back to the last ice
>>>> age, very few.
>>>
>>> Hmm.
>>>
>>> Reindeer, Red Deer, Roe Deer, Horse, Aurochs, possibly smaller wild
>>> cattle, possibly Bison but I don't think they survived the opening
>>> of the North Sea, likewise Mammoth.  Smaller herbivores: Common and
>>> Mountain Hares, Beavers; I think that's about it for mammals over
>>> squirrel size (which were red).
>>
>> And it was the recolonisation of the areas by scrub and deer of
>> whichever species that Early Man followed.
>> They were reliant on deer for a vast array of resources - food,
>> skins, music, tools,
>> There are papers on woodland pasture where the grazing patterns and
>> opportunities of the deer were being managed by Early Man.
>> They have co-existed and Man has been involved in the management of
>> his environment for so many thousands of years that its farcicle to
>> consider our environment any other way.
>>
>
> Child gave me "The Tribes of Britain" by David Miles, an archeologist,
> ISBN 978 0 7538 1799 5.
>
> Very interesting re "prehistoric" agriculture and diet.

hmm
another for the list - thanks

My problem is that having ended up with the varifocal glasses after the 
cataract ops several years ago, I can no longer 'eat' books in the same way. 
Its not relaxing its more hard work. Its really frustrating. Like many 
things its probably more practise but its finding /making the time when 
there are not more important things to do or not already knackered.
:)

-- 

regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment,  Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk

Elaine Jones  writes
>Very interesting re "prehistoric" agriculture and diet.

At last something potentially interesting

er

except, no details to ponder on...

-- 
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

Jill  writes
>My problem is that having ended up with the varifocal glasses after the 
>cataract ops several years ago, 

Bin them.

Use 'executive' bifocals with the split across the centre of the lens.
The bottom half for reading the top for (typically) a monitor or mid-
distance. More expensive than a varifocal but vastly better. Varifocals
seem to be designed for people who read little. I now know two
professionals that have recently changed to these from varifocals to
great advantage.

>I can no longer 'eat' books in the same way. 
>Its not relaxing its more hard work. Its really frustrating. Like many 
>things its probably more practise but its finding /making the time when 
>there are not more important things to do or not already knackered.

No, its because varifocals are almost useless.

-- 
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

Oz wrote:
> Jill  writes
>> My problem is that having ended up with the varifocal glasses after
>> the cataract ops several years ago,
>
> Bin them.

I cannot -- you have no idea what the problems with my eyes are so to 
suggest that is frankly stupid.

-- 

regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment,  Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk

Jill  writes
>Oz wrote:
>> Jill  writes
>>> My problem is that having ended up with the varifocal glasses after
>>> the cataract ops several years ago,
>>
>> Bin them.
>
>I cannot -- you have no idea what the problems with my eyes are so to 
>suggest that is frankly stupid.


Without having bothered to explain these problems?

"Stupid"

Your problem.

-- 
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

Quoting from message 
 posted on 4 Jan 2008 by Oz
 I would like to add:

> Elaine Jones  writes
>>Very interesting re "prehistoric" agriculture and diet.
> 
> At last something potentially interesting
> 
> er
> 
> except, no details to ponder on...
> 
Track down the book - there's a great deal of info and I'm not going 
to scan pages and pages for your benefit!!!

It's informative and the style is "readable" (i.e. not absolutely 
academic). Child was going to buy one by another author - but went to 
one of his lectures and was not impressed.

-- 
.ElaineJ.  Visit Jones' Pages at http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/ejones
.Virtual.  Corwen, North Wales; Steam Traction, with feature on 
Fodens; StrongArm  Textures/Backdrops; Spring Graphics
.RISC PC.  CMMGB with pics of pre- WW 1 Dawson & Yukon Volunteers.

"Jill"  wrote in message 
news:13nru24rh3s2c1f@corp.supernews.com...
 > They were reliant on deer for a vast array of resources - food, skins,
> music,

  I have trouble catergorising a deer, wind, string, percusion or voice ?

Elaine Jones  writes
>Quoting from message 
> posted on 4 Jan 2008 by Oz
> I would like to add:
>
>> Elaine Jones  writes
>>>Very interesting re "prehistoric" agriculture and diet.
>> 
>> At last something potentially interesting
>> 
>> er
>> 
>> except, no details to ponder on...
>> 
>Track down the book - there's a great deal of info and I'm not going to scan 
>pages and pages for your benefit!!! 

Its customary to post an example or two of what you found interesting.
Otherwise, why bother to mention it?

-- 
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

"buddenbrooks"  wrote in message 
news:fllko4$mk3$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> "Jill"  wrote in message 
> news:13nru24rh3s2c1f@corp.supernews.com...
> > They were reliant on deer for a vast array of resources - food, skins,
>> music,
>
>  I have trouble catergorising a deer, wind, string, percusion or voice ?

ROTFL :-)))  I didn't even notice that earlier, but now that I do, it is 
comical.  Were their horns used to make musical instruments or something 
like that?

M

buddenbrooks wrote:
> 
> "Jill"  wrote in message 
> news:13nru24rh3s2c1f@corp.supernews.com...
>  > They were reliant on deer for a vast array of resources - food, skins,
>> music,
> 
>  I have trouble catergorising a deer, wind, string, percusion or voice ?


All of the above, depending on which bit of the deer you use in which way.

Bone - flute
sinews - strings
skin - drum


-- 
Jette Goldie
jette@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://wolfette.livejournal.com/
("reply to" is spamblocked - use the email addy in sig)

Quoting from message 
 posted on 4 Jan 2008 by Oz
 I would like to add:

> Elaine Jones  writes
>>Quoting from message 
>> posted on 4 Jan 2008 by Oz
>> I would like to add:
>>
>>> Elaine Jones  writes
>>>>Very interesting re "prehistoric" agriculture and diet.
>>> 
>>> At last something potentially interesting
>>> 
>>> er
>>> 
>>> except, no details to ponder on...
>>> 
>>Track down the book - there's a great deal of info and I'm not going to scan
>>pages and pages for your benefit!!!
> 
> Its customary to post an example or two of what you found interesting.
> Otherwise, why bother to mention it?
> 
"Much of the Wessex downs are covered with extensive regular field 
systems. Some survive as earthworks on army ranges and steep slopes, 
others can only be seen as ploughed-out soil marks on aerial. Even the 
higher chalklands are covered by these fields and the impression is 
that there was little open grazing land outside this formal control. 
The scale and regular orientation of these blocks also speak of some 
central authority and basic surveying skills. In spite of the scale of 
the fields there are few contemporary settlements; possibly they lay 
in neighbouring river valleys. The historical cliché, commonly 
reported in twentieth century textbooks, that valleys were 
impenetrable forest and swamps in prehistoric Britain, is old hat - 
the Vale of Pewsey, for example, is full of sites."

-- 
.ElaineJ.  Visit Jones' Pages at http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/ejones
.Virtual.  Corwen, North Wales; Steam Traction, with feature on 
Fodens; StrongArm  Textures/Backdrops; Spring Graphics
.RISC PC.  CMMGB with pics of pre- WW 1 Dawson & Yukon Volunteers.

Oz wrote:
> Jill  writes
>> Oz wrote:
>>> Jill  writes
>>>> My problem is that having ended up with the varifocal glasses after
>>>> the cataract ops several years ago,
>>>
>>> Bin them.
>>
>> I cannot -- you have no idea what the problems with my eyes are so to
>> suggest that is frankly stupid.
>
>
> Without having bothered to explain these problems?

You are not my opthamologist. - or for that matter anyone elses!

-- 

regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment,  Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk

Michelle Masters wrote:
> "buddenbrooks"  wrote in message
> news:fllko4$mk3$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
>>
>> "Jill"  wrote in message
>> news:13nru24rh3s2c1f@corp.supernews.com...
>>> They were reliant on deer for a vast array of resources - food,
>>> skins, music,
>>
>>  I have trouble catergorising a deer, wind, string, percusion or
>> voice ?
>
> ROTFL :-)))  I didn't even notice that earlier, but now that I do, it
> is comical.  Were their horns used to make musical instruments or
> something like that?

Yup -- and they make amazing sounds.
There are recordings here
http://www.kilmartin.org//index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=7&Itemid=135

Skins are also used for drums, gut for strings, etc etc
Early Man was very resourceful and ingenuous and creative

-- 

regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment,  Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk

Oz wrote:
>>>
>> Track down the book - there's a great deal of info and I'm not going
>> to scan pages and pages for your benefit!!!
>
> Its customary to post an example or two of what you found interesting.
> Otherwise, why bother to mention it?

I understood Elaine sufficiently to know that if she thought it was 
interesting and relevant to the conversation I probably would too.
If you copy and paste the title and author into google you will find plenty 
of reviews and references.

-- 

regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment,  Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk

In article , Jill says...

> 
> My problem is that having ended up with the varifocal glasses after the 
> cataract ops several years ago, I can no longer 'eat' books in the 
same way. 

Ther's cheap varifocals and expensive varifocals.  I now get the 
expensive ones and its amazing the difference in both ease of reading 
and the additional peripheral vision you enjoy.

A previous place of employment had me health'n' safety inspected.

The inspector told me I should have 3 sets of glasses, one for distance, 
one for reading and one for vdu.

I asked him which pair I should have on when working at the screen with 
paperwork on the desk and a visitor just oming through the door.

He squirmed slightly and then even more when I asked if he would be the 
person I sued when I stabbed my eye with the arm of the glasses whilst 
rapidly changing between pairs.
-- 
David
Visit http://www.farm-direct.co.uk for your local farmgate food 
supplies.
FAQ's, Glossary, Farming Year and more!

"David P"  wrote in message 
news:MPG.21e89641f3ed02798996e@news.plus.net...
> In article , Jill says...
>
>>
>> My problem is that having ended up with the varifocal glasses after the
>> cataract ops several years ago, I can no longer 'eat' books in the
> same way.
>
> Ther's cheap varifocals and expensive varifocals.  I now get the
> expensive ones and its amazing the difference in both ease of reading
> and the additional peripheral vision you enjoy.

I have been fortunate not to have had to experience the former.

>
> A previous place of employment had me health'n' safety inspected.
>
> The inspector told me I should have 3 sets of glasses, one for distance,
> one for reading and one for vdu.
>
> I asked him which pair I should have on when working at the screen with
> paperwork on the desk and a visitor just oming through the door.
>
> He squirmed slightly and then even more when I asked if he would be the
> person I sued when I stabbed my eye with the arm of the glasses whilst
> rapidly changing between pairs.

Oh I can understand all of that !!!
<G>


-- 
regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment,  Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk

In article , Jill says...
> "David P"  wrote in message 
> news:MPG.21e89641f3ed02798996e@news.plus.net...
> > In article , Jill says...
> >
> >>
> >> My problem is that having ended up with the varifocal glasses after the
> >> cataract ops several years ago, I can no longer 'eat' books in the
> > same way.
> >
> > Ther's cheap varifocals and expensive varifocals.  I now get the
> > expensive ones and its amazing the difference in both ease of reading
> > and the additional peripheral vision you enjoy.
> 
> I have been fortunate not to have had to experience the former.

I was lucky to have tried them free of charge.  I quickly realised the 
benefits of the more expensive lens.

The advanatge of having friends in the trade!

-- 
David
Visit http://www.farm-direct.co.uk for your local farmgate food 
supplies.
FAQ's, Glossary, Farming Year and more!

David P wrote:
> In article , Jill says...
> 
>> My problem is that having ended up with the varifocal glasses after the 
>> cataract ops several years ago, I can no longer 'eat' books in the 
> same way. 
> 
> Ther's cheap varifocals and expensive varifocals.  I now get the 
> expensive ones and its amazing the difference in both ease of reading 
> and the additional peripheral vision you enjoy.
> 
> A previous place of employment had me health'n' safety inspected.
> 
> The inspector told me I should have 3 sets of glasses, one for distance, 
> one for reading and one for vdu.
> 
> I asked him which pair I should have on when working at the screen with 
> paperwork on the desk and a visitor just oming through the door.
> 
> He squirmed slightly and then even more when I asked if he would be the 
> person I sued when I stabbed my eye with the arm of the glasses whilst 
> rapidly changing between pairs.

Nice one.

-- 
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make 
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]

Jill wrote:
> "David P"  wrote in message 
> news:MPG.21e89641f3ed02798996e@news.plus.net...
>> In article , Jill says...
>>
>>> My problem is that having ended up with the varifocal glasses after the
>>> cataract ops several years ago, I can no longer 'eat' books in the
>> same way.
>>
>> Ther's cheap varifocals and expensive varifocals.  I now get the
>> expensive ones and its amazing the difference in both ease of reading
>> and the additional peripheral vision you enjoy.
> 
> I have been fortunate not to have had to experience the former.

Careful Jill, Pat will be claiming you to be a millionaire, with a whole 
book of associated fabrications.  :-)


-- 
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make 
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]

"David P"  wrote in message 
news:MPG.21e8a7ebcfc88b23989970@news.plus.net...
> In article , Jill says...
>> I have been fortunate not to have had to experience the former.
>
> I was lucky to have tried them free of charge.  I quickly realised the
> benefits of the more expensive lens.

They are quite remarkable at allowing those of us with serious problems do 
just about everything almost as well as we would with normal sight.
There is compromise but its a great deal better than the alternative.
A friend had had varifocals for some years before I had to and he warned me 
about the pitfalls of the cheaper lenses.

>
> The advanatge of having friends in the trade!

Have you tried the new varifocal contact lenses? Out in the past month ?
They are now able to deal with many more complications than previous 
versions.
About a pound a day - I am told.

-- 
regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment,  Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk

In article , Jill says...
> "David P"  wrote in message 
> news:MPG.21e8a7ebcfc88b23989970@news.plus.net...
> > In article , Jill says...
> >
> > The advanatge of having friends in the trade!
> 
> Have you tried the new varifocal contact lenses? Out in the past month ?
> They are now able to deal with many more complications than previous 
> versions.
> About a pound a day - I am told.
> 
Only £365 a year then!

I've worn glasses for so long now that I'd feel lost without them.  I 
thought about contacts a number of years ago - but couldn't bring myself 
to actually put something into my eye.  Squeamish & silly, I know, but 
I'm basically happy with glasses.

-- 
David
Visit http://www.farm-direct.co.uk for your local farmgate food 
supplies.
FAQ's, Glossary, Farming Year and more!

"David P"  wrote in message 
news:MPG.21e8ae419050efa6989971@news.plus.net...
> I've worn glasses for so long now that I'd feel lost without them.  I
> thought about contacts a number of years ago - but couldn't bring myself
> to actually put something into my eye.  Squeamish & silly, I know, but
> I'm basically happy with glasses.
>

If by any chance you get to ask your "friend" in the know I would be 
interested in opinions.
I am not going down this route just yet but would appreciate others 
experiences.


-- 
regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment,  Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk

On Friday, in article 
     news@NOSPAMkintaline.co.uk "Jill" wrote:

> Oz wrote:
> > Jill  writes
> >> My problem is that having ended up with the varifocal glasses after
> >> the cataract ops several years ago,
> >
> > Bin them.
> 
> I cannot -- you have no idea what the problems with my eyes are so to 
> suggest that is frankly stupid.

He may have a point about where the changes in the lens are. I've never 
used varifocals, but the usual split in bifocals is, I find, awkwardly 
placed for reading, and neck-straininglg useless for computer use.

With my eyes, I can cope without spectacles (as long as I don't drive) 
so I'm getting a couple of cheap single-vision pairs off of the Internet 
for computer-use and spare distance vision.

-- David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

On the horizon, a carrier task force of the Salvation Navy was 
turning into the wind, preparing to launch Zeppelins.

David G. Bell  writes

>He may have a point about where the changes in the lens are. I've never used 
>varifocals, but the usual split in bifocals is, I find, awkwardly placed for 
>reading, and neck-straininglg useless for computer use.

Indeed, you have to be quite determined to get the division about half
way. They seem to be trained to have the reading section as small as
possible. The improvement in usability is rather large. I also use
rather large glasses. Since I have a very small head I need to bend the
hinge-arm (between lens and hinge) in to obtain a snug fit. If you know
this is required the optician will do it for you (perhaps under
protest). The effect is large.

NB specsavers are relatively cheap when they do a two for one price, and
it pays to:

1) Have two identical frames.
2) Also buy at the same time two extra sets of lenses (if not four).

Then its fairly easy to replace the lenses when they get scratched (they
will), and it doesn't matter if you break the odd lens. Typically I wear
one pair all the time (gets lost, trodden on etc) and keep the other for
'best'.

The el cheapo £3 supermarket spectacles are surprisingly good and worth
using (I did) when you only need a single prescription. The frames aure
usually rolled so you can't change the lenses, but at £3, who cares.

-- 
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

Elaine Jones  writes
>"Much of the Wessex downs are covered with extensive regular field systems. 
>Some survive as earthworks on army ranges and steep slopes, others can only 
>be seen as ploughed-out soil marks on aerial. Even the higher chalklands are 
>covered by these fields and the impression is that there was little open 
>grazing land outside this formal control. The scale and regular orientation 
>of these blocks also speak of some central authority and basic surveying 
>skills. In spite of the scale of the fields there are few contemporary 
>settlements; possibly they lay in neighbouring river valleys. The historical 
>cliché, commonly reported in twentieth century textbooks, that valleys were 
>impenetrable forest and swamps in prehistoric Britain, is old hat - the Vale 
>of Pewsey, for example, is full of sites."

Gosh! I didn't expect an actual quote. More like "Much of UK downland
was laid out in linear blocks of arable land although settlements there
are sparse. The idea that the valleys were impenetrable swamps and
forests is not tenable"

If course this is so pretty well everywhere in England, and archaeology
in the lowlands now suggests there were extensive settlements there. The
idea that stone age man (and even early iron age is prehistoric in
britain, remember) was not well organised into rather large groups is
quite untenable given the large mesolithic monuments that scatter much
of the more isolated parts of britain. Given that valley stone age sites
are MUCH more abundant than the high-level (eg downs) when large scale
archaeology happens (eg pipelines), its more likely that the mesolithic
constructions there have been recycled over the ages rather than never
existed.

-- 
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

"David G. Bell" wrote:
> On Friday, in article 
>     news@NOSPAMkintaline.co.uk "Jill" wrote:
>
>> Oz wrote:
>>> Jill  writes
>>>> My problem is that having ended up with the varifocal glasses after
>>>> the cataract ops several years ago,
>>>
>>> Bin them.
>>
>> I cannot -- you have no idea what the problems with my eyes are so to
>> suggest that is frankly stupid.
>
> He may have a point about where the changes in the lens are.

Throwing my glasses away was the suggestion, it was stupid.

Varifocals are completely necessary for me to function on an ordinary level.
Because they are so essential I have gone for the best I can afford, which 
are Good.
I understand that there are compromises with this. One of these is not being 
able to read books as well as I could. - I have no problems with computers 
whether the PC here in the office or the laptop anywhere else.
As I have acknowledged part of that is practise, which needs time I have not 
been able to apply as this is hobby time not work/living time.
Part is using dedicated reading glasses, which would need time too,  and 
more money.

-- 

regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment,  Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk

"Oz"  wrote in message 
news:7hVRwKEg7zfHFwLi@farmeroz.port995.com...
> Elaine Jones  writes
>>"Much of the Wessex downs are covered with extensive regular field 
>>systems.
>>Some survive as earthworks on army ranges and steep slopes, others can 
>>only
>>be seen as ploughed-out soil marks on aerial. Even the higher chalklands 
>>are
>>covered by these fields and the impression is that there was little open
>>grazing land outside this formal control. The scale and regular 
>>orientation
>>of these blocks also speak of some central authority and basic surveying
>>skills. In spite of the scale of the fields there are few contemporary
>>settlements; possibly they lay in neighbouring river valleys. The 
>>historical
>>cliché, commonly reported in twentieth century textbooks, that valleys 
>>were
>>impenetrable forest and swamps in prehistoric Britain, is old hat - the 
>>Vale
>>of Pewsey, for example, is full of sites."
>
> Gosh! I didn't expect an actual quote. More like "Much of UK downland
> was laid out in linear blocks of arable land although settlements there
> are sparse. The idea that the valleys were impenetrable swamps and
> forests is not tenable"
>
> If course this is so pretty well everywhere in England, and archaeology
> in the lowlands now suggests there were extensive settlements there. The
> idea that stone age man (and even early iron age is prehistoric in
> britain, remember) was not well organised into rather large groups is
> quite untenable given the large mesolithic monuments that scatter much
> of the more isolated parts of britain. Given that valley stone age sites
> are MUCH more abundant than the high-level (eg downs) when large scale
> archaeology happens (eg pipelines), its more likely that the mesolithic
> constructions there have been recycled over the ages rather than never
> existed.

I don't think it is entirely tactful to mention archaeology on UKBA nowadays

PG
>
> -- 
> Oz
> This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
>
>
>

In article , Jill says...
> "David P"  wrote in message 
> news:MPG.21e8ae419050efa6989971@news.plus.net...
> > I've worn glasses for so long now that I'd feel lost without them.  I
> > thought about contacts a number of years ago - but couldn't bring myself
> > to actually put something into my eye.  Squeamish & silly, I know, but
> > I'm basically happy with glasses.
> >
> 
> If by any chance you get to ask your "friend" in the know I would be 
> interested in opinions.
> I am not going down this route just yet but would appreciate others 
> experiences.

> 
I have an eye exam coming up (when I make it!) so I'll ask her then - 
unless my memory gets as bad as my eyesight.

-- 
David
Visit http://www.farm-direct.co.uk for your local farmgate food 
supplies.
FAQ's, Glossary, Farming Year and more!

In message 
          "Jim Webster"  wrote:

> 
> "buddenbrooks"  wrote in message
> news:flkirh$r2d$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>>
>> "Jim Webster"  wrote in message
>> news:5u4u8iF1frdnvU1@mid.individual.net...
>> >
>>> There are estates round here that still have the invoices for planting
>>> the first hedges in the area
>>>
>>
>>
>>  You really ought to get around to paying Jim :)
> 
> hey, it takes three hundred years before you know that they did it right,
> let's not rush these things, I'm not buying a pig in a poke ;-)
> 
> Jim Webster
> 
Congratulations.   That made my day.

Radio Wales sent a roving reporter out to investigate the state of 
Welsh farming.  At Welshpool market he spoke to a trader who sold 
requisites out of the back of a van.  'Tell me, are things really as 
bad as are made out?'  'Oh yes, things have never been as bad as this!  
It is so bad that even the customers who don't pay their bills have 
stopped buying from me!!'


-- 
Edward..
What can they know, whose talk is only of bullocks.

"Edward"  wrote in message
news:cc0e705c4f.eddien@freeuk.com...
> In message 
>          "Jim Webster"  wrote:
>
>>
>> "buddenbrooks"  wrote in message
>> news:flkirh$r2d$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>>>
>>> "Jim Webster"  wrote in message
>>> news:5u4u8iF1frdnvU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> >
>>>> There are estates round here that still have the invoices for planting
>>>> the first hedges in the area
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  You really ought to get around to paying Jim :)
>>
>> hey, it takes three hundred years before you know that they did it right,
>> let's not rush these things, I'm not buying a pig in a poke ;-)
>>
>> Jim Webster
>>
> Congratulations.   That made my day.
>
> Radio Wales sent a roving reporter out to investigate the state of
> Welsh farming.  At Welshpool market he spoke to a trader who sold
> requisites out of the back of a van.  'Tell me, are things really as
> bad as are made out?'  'Oh yes, things have never been as bad as this!
> It is so bad that even the customers who don't pay their bills have
> stopped buying from me!!'
>
>

trouble is, we know exactly what he means ;-)

Things are getting pretty grim through, farm bankruptcies are high

Jim Webster

Jim Webster  wrote:

> "Edward"  wrote in message
> news:cc0e705c4f.eddien@freeuk.com...
[snip]

> > Radio Wales sent a roving reporter out to investigate the state of
> > Welsh farming.  At Welshpool market he spoke to a trader who sold
> > requisites out of the back of a van.  'Tell me, are things really as
> > bad as are made out?'  'Oh yes, things have never been as bad as this!
> > It is so bad that even the customers who don't pay their bills have
> > stopped buying from me!!'
> >
> >
> 
> trouble is, we know exactly what he means ;-)
> 
> Things are getting pretty grim through, farm bankruptcies are high

I heard the following from a couple of farmers in my local pub:

"Here, Matt what would you do if you won the lottery?"

"Oh I'd probably keep on farming until the money ran out."

"Jim Webster"  wrote in message 
news:5ua6j1F1fvtt0U2@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Edward"  wrote in message
> news:cc0e705c4f.eddien@freeuk.com...
>> In message 
>>          "Jim Webster"  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "buddenbrooks"  wrote in message
>>> news:flkirh$r2d$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>>>>
>>>> "Jim Webster"  wrote in message
>>>> news:5u4u8iF1frdnvU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> >
>>>>> There are estates round here that still have the invoices for planting
>>>>> the first hedges in the area
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  You really ought to get around to paying Jim :)
>>>
>>> hey, it takes three hundred years before you know that they did it 
>>> right,
>>> let's not rush these things, I'm not buying a pig in a poke ;-)
>>>
>>> Jim Webster
>>>
>> Congratulations.   That made my day.
>>
>> Radio Wales sent a roving reporter out to investigate the state of
>> Welsh farming.  At Welshpool market he spoke to a trader who sold
>> requisites out of the back of a van.  'Tell me, are things really as
>> bad as are made out?'  'Oh yes, things have never been as bad as this!
>> It is so bad that even the customers who don't pay their bills have
>> stopped buying from me!!'
>>
>>
>
> trouble is, we know exactly what he means ;-)
>
> Things are getting pretty grim through, farm bankruptcies are high

That is no surprise given the appalling business advice they get from the 
hoards of well paid people advising them.

Virtually none have ever run any business well and are simply a massive 
drain that the industry cannot afford.

Even those that inherited good farm never founded anything and simply lose 
their patrimony over a  couple of generations and are reduced to taking in 
one another's washing.

Take a look at the NPA site. They admit they could not exist but for the 
advertising they get from the pharmaceutical industry.

Don't expect to get any sensible advice on animal health from them.

Then there is BPEX - another huge useless drain.

I have never seen such a huge group of people claiming to  be capitalists 
acting like something recommended by Karl Marx in trying to establish 
co-operatives and cartels under state supervision.

It really is a sad sight. Obviously there is no more money coming from the 
taxpayer. The country can't afford it.

You have to reform. Get into your trade associations, reduce their budget, 
reduce their  powers, reduce their staffing and influence. Get yourself 
elected and refuse point blank to allow anything that means any levies on 
you or your industry. Kick the conmen out of positions of authority.

That was how Felixstowe did it. The winner that won against all the natural 
seaports that are now yuppie playgrounds

Listen to the winners, boot the failures out..

-- 
Regards
Pat Gardiner
www.go-self-sufficient.com


>
> Jim Webster
>
>
>

Pat Gardiner  wrote:

> That was how Felixstowe did it. The winner that won against all the natural
> seaports that are now yuppie playgrounds

<sigh>

That you can claim to have been someone who ran succesful shipping
companies is a constant source of amazement. You appear to be entirely
ignorant of geography - political, economic and physical - that plays
the greater factor in determining the success or otherwise of ports.

On Sat, 5 Jan 2008 22:08:47 +0000, %steve%@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth)
wrote:

>Pat Gardiner  wrote:
>
>> That was how Felixstowe did it. The winner that won against all the natural
>> seaports that are now yuppie playgrounds
>
><sigh>
>
>That you can claim to have been someone who ran succesful shipping
>companies is a constant source of amazement. You appear to be entirely
>ignorant of geography - political, economic and physical - that plays
>the greater factor in determining the success or otherwise of ports.

It beats picking grapes for a living! Wouldn't be so bad if you had
some *Confessions Of A Grape Picker* stories to amuse us, but I guess
you're just not that type!









--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

In article ,
   Jill  wrote:
> "David G. Bell" wrote:
> > On Friday, in article 
> >     news@NOSPAMkintaline.co.uk "Jill" wrote:
> >
> >> Oz wrote:
> >>> Jill  writes
> >>>> My problem is that having ended up with the varifocal glasses after
> >>>> the cataract ops several years ago,
> >>>
> >>> Bin them.
> >>
> >> I cannot -- you have no idea what the problems with my eyes are so to
> >> suggest that is frankly stupid.
> >
> > He may have a point about where the changes in the lens are.

> Throwing my glasses away was the suggestion, it was stupid.

> Varifocals are completely necessary for me to function on an ordinary level.
> Because they are so essential I have gone for the best I can afford, which 
> are Good.
> I understand that there are compromises with this. One of these is not being 
> able to read books as well as I could. - I have no problems with computers 
> whether the PC here in the office or the laptop anywhere else.

I've found it is important not to have the computer screen too high with
varifocals. A screen which sits on the worksurface directly is better than
a screen which sits on top of the computer box. 

 I happily wear varifocals all the time and have, from time to time, bought
prescription reading glasses for computer work but astigmatism means that
cheap glasses (bought from smkts etc) do not work for me now unfortunately.

Screen height relative to chair height is the critical factor for me.

Cheers
Jane

<snip>

-- 

Jane G       :      j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk            :        S Devon

In message 
          "Jim Webster"  wrote:

> 
> "Edward"  wrote in message
> news:cc0e705c4f.eddien@freeuk.com...
>> In message 
>>          "Jim Webster"  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "buddenbrooks"  wrote in message
>>> news:flkirh$r2d$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>>>>
>>>> "Jim Webster"  wrote in message
>>>> news:5u4u8iF1frdnvU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> >
>>>>> There are estates round here that still have the invoices for planting
>>>>> the first hedges in the area
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  You really ought to get around to paying Jim :)
>>>
>>> hey, it takes three hundred years before you know that they did it right,
>>> let's not rush these things, I'm not buying a pig in a poke ;-)
>>>
>>> Jim Webster
>>>
>> Congratulations.   That made my day.
>>
>> Radio Wales sent a roving reporter out to investigate the state of
>> Welsh farming.  At Welshpool market he spoke to a trader who sold
>> requisites out of the back of a van.  'Tell me, are things really as
>> bad as are made out?'  'Oh yes, things have never been as bad as this!
>> It is so bad that even the customers who don't pay their bills have
>> stopped buying from me!!'
>>
>>
> 
> trouble is, we know exactly what he means ;-)
> 
> Things are getting pretty grim through, farm bankruptcies are high
> 
> Jim Webster
> 
Yeh!  I could have wept when I got my wool cheque at the end of the 
month.  I think I might be paying more for sand and gravel.  I am 
truly thankful that Dad always insisted on paying off borrowings as 
the highest priority.


-- 
Edward..
What can they know, whose talk is only of bullocks.

Jane Gillett wrote:
> I've found it is important not to have the computer screen too high
> with varifocals. A screen which sits on the worksurface directly is
> better than a screen which sits on top of the computer box.
>
> I happily wear varifocals all the time and have, from time to time,
> bought prescription reading glasses for computer work but astigmatism
> means that cheap glasses (bought from smkts etc) do not work for me
> now unfortunately.
>
> Screen height relative to chair height is the critical factor for me.

We have similar extra problems. The new varifocal contacts are meant to be 
finally able to cope with astigmatisms as well.
I have found that I have ended up looking almost down on the screen at my 
PC, its also good for the posture as it keeps me long in the chair.
Laptop on the sofa is even better   LOL

-- 

regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment,  Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk

"Edward"  wrote in message 
news:15cada5c4f.eddien@freeuk.com...
> In message 
>>
> Yeh!  I could have wept when I got my wool cheque at the end of the
> month.  I think I might be paying more for sand and gravel.  I am
> truly thankful that Dad always insisted on paying off borrowings as
> the highest priority.
>
>
the lessons of the last depression were well learned ;-)

Jim Webster

In article , Jill says...
> Jane Gillett wrote:
> > I've found it is important not to have the computer screen too high
> > with varifocals. A screen which sits on the worksurface directly is
> > better than a screen which sits on top of the computer box.
> >
> > I happily wear varifocals all the time and have, from time to time,
> > bought prescription reading glasses for computer work but astigmatism
> > means that cheap glasses (bought from smkts etc) do not work for me
> > now unfortunately.
> >
> > Screen height relative to chair height is the critical factor for me.
> 
> We have similar extra problems. The new varifocal contacts are meant to be 
> finally able to cope with astigmatisms as well.
> I have found that I have ended up looking almost down on the screen at my 
> PC, its also good for the posture as it keeps me long in the chair.
> Laptop on the sofa is even better   LOL
> 
Optimum screen height is where the top of the screen is on a level with 
your eyes.  That way you look down slightly when actually looking at the 
screen.

I've been thinking about the varifocal contacts - how do they work as 
they will be in a fixed position on the eyeball so you wont be able to 
take advantage of the different 'strengths' of the lens??
-- 
David
Visit http://www.farm-direct.co.uk for your local farmgate food 
supplies.
FAQ's, Glossary, Farming Year and more!

"David P"  wrote in message 
news:MPG.21eb103f1fac119f989975@news.plus.net...
you look down slightly when actually looking at the
> screen.
>
> I've been thinking about the varifocal contacts - how do they work as
> they will be in a fixed position on the eyeball so you wont be able to
> take advantage of the different 'strengths' of the lens??

I did not get a chance to ask as it was an 'in passing mid consult about 
other things' comment  -- hence my challenge to yourself as you seemed to 
have a more personal contact <g>

-- 
regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment,  Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk

Looks like we have another wheat customer getting ready to buy on a rising 
market

http://tinyurl.com/ypepu4

Saudi scraps wheat growing to save water

Saudi government to start reducing purchases of wheat from local farmers by 
12.5 % per year.


By Souhail Karam - RIYADH

Saudi Arabia is abandoning a 30-year programme to grow wheat that achieved 
self-sufficiency but depleted the desert kingdom's scarce water supplies.

The government will start reducing purchases of wheat from local farmers by 
12.5 percent per year from this year, officials from the agriculture and 
finance ministries said on Tuesday.

The kingdom aims to rely entirely on imports by 2016.

"The reason is water resources," said one official, who did not want to be 
identified.

Saudi Arabia produces 2.5 million tonnes a year of durum and soft wheat, 
enough to meet domestic demand.

"The drought problem is crucial for Saudi Arabia but it is also more and 
more frequent in other dry countries such as Australia," a European trader 
said.

In the 1970s, the government started a programme to encourage farmers to 
produce wheat, guaranteeing them at the time a massive 3,500 riyals ($933.5) 
for every tonne.

The kingdom even ended up with a large enough surplus in the early 1990s to 
export some to the ex-Soviet Union and donated a portion of it to Syria, 
said Abdulrahman al-Qahtani, a Saudi agriculture expert.

Faced with criticism for overpaying farmers, the government gradually cut 
the price to 1,000 riyals per tonne.

Global prices, in contrast, have soared in the last few months and wheat of 
milling quality for March delivery was trading at 252 euros ($370.5) per 
tonne in Paris on Tuesday.

OIL-FUNDED COMPENSATION

The government is considering offering wheat farmers compensation, either 
through helping them switch to other crops, such as feed for livestock, or 
cash handouts, officials said.

"With oil prices at record levels, there is no better time to do this than 
right now," al-Qahtani said.

A surge in input costs, such as pesticides, fertilisers and transport, has 
drastically eroded farmers' margins.

Samir Qabbani, deputy chairman of the National Committee of Agriculture, 
said farming in the kingdom relies totally on underground water resources.

"It is possible to save 1,300-1,500 cubic metres of water for every tonne of 
wheat produced," Qabbani said.

The phasing out of Saudi wheat production will have little impact on global 
prices, said Abdoulreza Abbassian, a Food and Agricultural Organisation 
grain analyst.

"We are dealing with a world situation where the strain on supplies is 
predominant and when we have an unexpected increase in imports, it will 
provide some support to prices, but it will not be anything exceptional," 
Abbassian, secretary of the intergovernmental group on grains, said.