On 2009-04-20 20:30:35 +0100, "Simon Finnigan" 
 said:

> "James Jolley"  wrote in message 
> news:74se7vF14lqn8U1@mid.individual.net...
>> I suppose, but it'de be even better if developers could think this 
>> through and have mainstream works doable, at least in theory. The only 
>> game I can think of is an xbox 360 community game called "the pit". 
>> This used no graphics at all and just audio. It was again quite 
>> simplistic, but great that someone did something for the blind on that 
>> specific platform.
> 
> Is it possible for a blind person to develop software to a good 
> standard - are there accessible development kits out there do you know? 
>  I have no idea, but would imagine that if it was possible for a blind 
> person to make a real contribution to developing the software that 
> would greatly increase the number of such titles being produced.  If it 
> requires someone with a good level of vision, that would presumably 
> mean that very few titles would be produced - people tending to write 
> software that appeals to them, and a sighted person would have less use 
> for audio only titles than someone without vision.

There is the main problem I think. The tools are fine, but as you're 
aware, many game mechanics rely on exacting synchronisation between 
audio and visual senses. I don't really understand how a blind person 
could contribute to the design process on that front, but i'm guessing 
something could be figured out. Game companies aren't really all that 
receptive either, small market.

Another example i've thought of was on the GBA. "Sound Voyager" was an 
attempt to use audio to play space invaders and other such type games. 
It did work as well, I just haven't got a GBA and the DS is a complete 
no go for blind people as the pen is necessary. I tried one and had to 
take it back next day because Tiger Woods needed the pen to do the shot.

Either way, this group has some really interested parties on. If anyone 
knows developers then feel free to put me in touch with some.

Best

-James-

"James Jolley"  wrote in message 
news:7542hmF166957U1@mid.individual.net...
> On 2009-04-20 20:30:35 +0100, "Simon Finnigan"  
> said:
>
>> "James Jolley"  wrote in message 
>> news:74se7vF14lqn8U1@mid.individual.net...
>>> I suppose, but it'de be even better if developers could think this 
>>> through and have mainstream works doable, at least in theory. The only 
>>> game I can think of is an xbox 360 community game called "the pit". This 
>>> used no graphics at all and just audio. It was again quite simplistic, 
>>> but great that someone did something for the blind on that specific 
>>> platform.
>>
>> Is it possible for a blind person to develop software to a good 
>> standard - are there accessible development kits out there do you know? I 
>> have no idea, but would imagine that if it was possible for a blind 
>> person to make a real contribution to developing the software that would 
>> greatly increase the number of such titles being produced.  If it 
>> requires someone with a good level of vision, that would presumably mean 
>> that very few titles would be produced - people tending to write software 
>> that appeals to them, and a sighted person would have less use for audio 
>> only titles than someone without vision.
>
> There is the main problem I think. The tools are fine, but as you're 
> aware, many game mechanics rely on exacting synchronisation between audio 
> and visual senses. I don't really understand how a blind person could 
> contribute to the design process on that front, but i'm guessing something 
> could be figured out. Game companies aren't really all that receptive 
> either, small market.

I`m also intrigued about the issues around debugging code - not sure how 
easy it would be to do that without a visual display.

I would imagine that the Wii controller makes some games that are more 
accessible for partially sighted people too - tennis, bowling etc on Wii 
sports. You don`t need pixel perfect accuracy, for normal gaming a rough 
movement is enough.

> Another example i've thought of was on the GBA. "Sound Voyager" was an 
> attempt to use audio to play space invaders and other such type games. It 
> did work as well, I just haven't got a GBA and the DS is a complete no go 
> for blind people as the pen is necessary. I tried one and had to take it 
> back next day because Tiger Woods needed the pen to do the shot.
>
> Either way, this group has some really interested parties on. If anyone 
> knows developers then feel free to put me in touch with some.
>
> Best
>
> -James-
>

On 2009-04-20 21:06:00 +0100, "Simon Finnigan" 
 said:

> "James Jolley"  wrote in message 
> news:7542hmF166957U1@mid.individual.net...
>> On 2009-04-20 20:30:35 +0100, "Simon Finnigan" 
>>  said:
>> 
>>> "James Jolley"  wrote in message 
>>> news:74se7vF14lqn8U1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> I suppose, but it'de be even better if developers could think this 
>>>> through and have mainstream works doable, at least in theory. The only 
>>>> game I can think of is an xbox 360 community game called "the pit". 
>>>> This used no graphics at all and just audio. It was again quite 
>>>> simplistic, but great that someone did something for the blind on that 
>>>> specific platform.
>>> 
>>> Is it possible for a blind person to develop software to a good 
>>> standard - are there accessible development kits out there do you know? 
>>> I have no idea, but would imagine that if it was possible for a blind 
>>> person to make a real contribution to developing the software that 
>>> would greatly increase the number of such titles being produced.  If it 
>>> requires someone with a good level of vision, that would presumably 
>>> mean that very few titles would be produced - people tending to write 
>>> software that appeals to them, and a sighted person would have less use 
>>> for audio only titles than someone without vision.
>> 
>> There is the main problem I think. The tools are fine, but as you're 
>> aware, many game mechanics rely on exacting synchronisation between 
>> audio and visual senses. I don't really understand how a blind person 
>> could contribute to the design process on that front, but i'm guessing 
>> something could be figured out. Game companies aren't really all that 
>> receptive either, small market.
> 
> I`m also intrigued about the issues around debugging code - not sure 
> how easy it would be to do that without a visual display.
I do use some tools myself for the macintosh platform. The access is 
relatively good in that respect, but my work relates to interactive 
fiction or literature, so the tools are textual.
> 
> I would imagine that the Wii controller makes some games that are more 
> accessible for partially sighted people too - tennis, bowling etc on 
> Wii sports. You don`t need pixel perfect accuracy, for normal gaming a 
> rough movement is enough.
Interestingly, I tried the WII and hated it for some reason. It didn't 
really feel like a game to me, possibly because I was swinging this 
thing, a noise happens and not much else. I didn't get any sense of 
satisfaction for some strange reason, shame given that the possibility 
for access is super.

The other issue with the WII is the need to point the sensor at the 
menu options. The nice thing though is that it vibrates as you move the 
cursor, but without a real reference point as to where I was onscreen, 
it was difficult. With the standard PS3 system, 3 beeps or clicks down 
then X does something, and I can rely on that always being the case at 
the main menu for instance.

Best

-James-

"James Jolley"  wrote in message 
news:75438qF16dr3dU1@mid.individual.net...
> On 2009-04-20 21:06:00 +0100, "Simon Finnigan"  
> said:
>
>> "James Jolley"  wrote in message 
>> news:7542hmF166957U1@mid.individual.net...
>>> On 2009-04-20 20:30:35 +0100, "Simon Finnigan" 
>>>  said:
>>>
>>>> "James Jolley"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:74se7vF14lqn8U1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>> I suppose, but it'de be even better if developers could think this 
>>>>> through and have mainstream works doable, at least in theory. The only 
>>>>> game I can think of is an xbox 360 community game called "the pit". 
>>>>> This used no graphics at all and just audio. It was again quite 
>>>>> simplistic, but great that someone did something for the blind on that 
>>>>> specific platform.
>>>>
>>>> Is it possible for a blind person to develop software to a good 
>>>> standard - are there accessible development kits out there do you know? 
>>>> I have no idea, but would imagine that if it was possible for a blind 
>>>> person to make a real contribution to developing the software that 
>>>> would greatly increase the number of such titles being produced.  If it 
>>>> requires someone with a good level of vision, that would presumably 
>>>> mean that very few titles would be produced - people tending to write 
>>>> software that appeals to them, and a sighted person would have less use 
>>>> for audio only titles than someone without vision.
>>>
>>> There is the main problem I think. The tools are fine, but as you're 
>>> aware, many game mechanics rely on exacting synchronisation between 
>>> audio and visual senses. I don't really understand how a blind person 
>>> could contribute to the design process on that front, but i'm guessing 
>>> something could be figured out. Game companies aren't really all that 
>>> receptive either, small market.
>>
>> I`m also intrigued about the issues around debugging code - not sure how 
>> easy it would be to do that without a visual display.
> I do use some tools myself for the macintosh platform. The access is 
> relatively good in that respect, but my work relates to interactive 
> fiction or literature, so the tools are textual.
>>
>> I would imagine that the Wii controller makes some games that are more 
>> accessible for partially sighted people too - tennis, bowling etc on Wii 
>> sports. You don`t need pixel perfect accuracy, for normal gaming a rough 
>> movement is enough.
> Interestingly, I tried the WII and hated it for some reason. It didn't 
> really feel like a game to me, possibly because I was swinging this thing, 
> a noise happens and not much else. I didn't get any sense of satisfaction 
> for some strange reason, shame given that the possibility for access is 
> super.
>
> The other issue with the WII is the need to point the sensor at the menu 
> options. The nice thing though is that it vibrates as you move the cursor, 
> but without a real reference point as to where I was onscreen, it was 
> difficult. With the standard PS3 system, 3 beeps or clicks down then X 
> does something, and I can rely on that always being the case at the main 
> menu for instance.

Good point.  With the Wii I was thinking more along the lines of people with 
poor vision, but still able to distinguish the icons on the screen - maybe 
on a 50 inch plasma screen, but still able to start the game and then play 
it with a sense of feedback.  Without being able to see the screen I can see 
your point about a lack of satisfaction.